Re: Therapy for KO's

[Guest guest]

>> " I struggle with the whole " mother " issue of our faith. "

Try being a Mormon where the belief still is that parents are never

wrong and should always be obeyed.

** , Stinky's caretaker**

Froehliche Weihnachten,

Merry Christmas

[Guest guest]

>> " I struggle with the whole " mother " issue of our faith. "

Try being a Mormon where the belief still is that parents are never

wrong and should always be obeyed.

** , Stinky's caretaker**

Froehliche Weihnachten,

Merry Christmas

[Guest guest]

Hi Debbie,

I took that particular issue up in therapy. I don't have the comfort

of understanding the concept of Our Lady

because...................nada messed that up by being such a

warped mother. It messed up my spiritual guts. It is very hard for

me to get to a concept of a loving God bec. I am still ducking

thunderbolts. And I've been a practicing Catholic my whole life.

Why didn't the message take? My therapist said that probably

bec. their faith was not real, it was rote. When you get cultural

Catholics...you can get someone who knows every move, but

has not internalized any of the message of extreme care, love

and kindness to children as exhibited in the gospel. The tragedy

bigger than their mistakes is that they mess up perfectly nice

people and poison their hearts to religion.

As for honoring my mother..I can honor anyone as a fellow

human being and child of God...however..I can't allow my

Catholic guilt to get in the way of my recovery right now. I don't

wish her any harm, but this is like a big sewer of memories that

is coming out and she just needs to stay away until I decide, if

ever, to have anything to do with her again.

I have had the experience of several prayers answered with such

a clear marking that the answers were tenderly for me, that I do

believe in God and the Blessed Mother and Jesus...and I know

that it is my perception that is off bec. of the childhood. I'm

working on that in my own way. It is hard though.

I feel like an orphan in that sense and am working on it...it is sort

of a spiritual goal. I think if I can get nada out of the way then I will

be able to find my way back.

I like that concept of " living backwards " in UTBM (understanding

the Borderline Mother). I have received great healing from my

kids without knowing it. By being a good mother myself, it has

both made me feel acutely the pain of what I did not have, as well

as the feeling of success at doing what I do so well. My late

sister felt the same way as does my co-banished sister who is

my companion for this part of the journey.

Kathleen

> Kathleen,

>

> It is very comforting to have stumbled across a fellow Catholic

here. I

> struggle with the whole " mother " issue of our faith. The

Blessed Mother is

> our help and our refuge and a model of what I strive to be as a

woman and a

> mother...why didn't this message take with Megatron? I also

struggle with

> honoring her (Megatron) as is required. YUKKKK!

>

> Debbie

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Debbie,

I took that particular issue up in therapy. I don't have the comfort

of understanding the concept of Our Lady

because...................nada messed that up by being such a

warped mother. It messed up my spiritual guts. It is very hard for

me to get to a concept of a loving God bec. I am still ducking

thunderbolts. And I've been a practicing Catholic my whole life.

Why didn't the message take? My therapist said that probably

bec. their faith was not real, it was rote. When you get cultural

Catholics...you can get someone who knows every move, but

has not internalized any of the message of extreme care, love

and kindness to children as exhibited in the gospel. The tragedy

bigger than their mistakes is that they mess up perfectly nice

people and poison their hearts to religion.

As for honoring my mother..I can honor anyone as a fellow

human being and child of God...however..I can't allow my

Catholic guilt to get in the way of my recovery right now. I don't

wish her any harm, but this is like a big sewer of memories that

is coming out and she just needs to stay away until I decide, if

ever, to have anything to do with her again.

I have had the experience of several prayers answered with such

a clear marking that the answers were tenderly for me, that I do

believe in God and the Blessed Mother and Jesus...and I know

that it is my perception that is off bec. of the childhood. I'm

working on that in my own way. It is hard though.

I feel like an orphan in that sense and am working on it...it is sort

of a spiritual goal. I think if I can get nada out of the way then I will

be able to find my way back.

I like that concept of " living backwards " in UTBM (understanding

the Borderline Mother). I have received great healing from my

kids without knowing it. By being a good mother myself, it has

both made me feel acutely the pain of what I did not have, as well

as the feeling of success at doing what I do so well. My late

sister felt the same way as does my co-banished sister who is

my companion for this part of the journey.

Kathleen

> Kathleen,

>

> It is very comforting to have stumbled across a fellow Catholic

here. I

> struggle with the whole " mother " issue of our faith. The

Blessed Mother is

> our help and our refuge and a model of what I strive to be as a

woman and a

> mother...why didn't this message take with Megatron? I also

struggle with

> honoring her (Megatron) as is required. YUKKKK!

>

> Debbie

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Debbie,

I took that particular issue up in therapy. I don't have the comfort

of understanding the concept of Our Lady

because...................nada messed that up by being such a

warped mother. It messed up my spiritual guts. It is very hard for

me to get to a concept of a loving God bec. I am still ducking

thunderbolts. And I've been a practicing Catholic my whole life.

Why didn't the message take? My therapist said that probably

bec. their faith was not real, it was rote. When you get cultural

Catholics...you can get someone who knows every move, but

has not internalized any of the message of extreme care, love

and kindness to children as exhibited in the gospel. The tragedy

bigger than their mistakes is that they mess up perfectly nice

people and poison their hearts to religion.

As for honoring my mother..I can honor anyone as a fellow

human being and child of God...however..I can't allow my

Catholic guilt to get in the way of my recovery right now. I don't

wish her any harm, but this is like a big sewer of memories that

is coming out and she just needs to stay away until I decide, if

ever, to have anything to do with her again.

I have had the experience of several prayers answered with such

a clear marking that the answers were tenderly for me, that I do

believe in God and the Blessed Mother and Jesus...and I know

that it is my perception that is off bec. of the childhood. I'm

working on that in my own way. It is hard though.

I feel like an orphan in that sense and am working on it...it is sort

of a spiritual goal. I think if I can get nada out of the way then I will

be able to find my way back.

I like that concept of " living backwards " in UTBM (understanding

the Borderline Mother). I have received great healing from my

kids without knowing it. By being a good mother myself, it has

both made me feel acutely the pain of what I did not have, as well

as the feeling of success at doing what I do so well. My late

sister felt the same way as does my co-banished sister who is

my companion for this part of the journey.

Kathleen

> Kathleen,

>

> It is very comforting to have stumbled across a fellow Catholic

here. I

> struggle with the whole " mother " issue of our faith. The

Blessed Mother is

> our help and our refuge and a model of what I strive to be as a

woman and a

> mother...why didn't this message take with Megatron? I also

struggle with

> honoring her (Megatron) as is required. YUKKKK!

>

> Debbie

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

--- andy24747@... wrote:

> Try being a Mormon where the belief still is that

> parents are never

> wrong and should always be obeyed.

Now, is that a Mormon thing or a BPD thing because my

parents are the same way and they're Methodist?

Holly

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

--- andy24747@... wrote:

> Try being a Mormon where the belief still is that

> parents are never

> wrong and should always be obeyed.

Now, is that a Mormon thing or a BPD thing because my

parents are the same way and they're Methodist?

Holly

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

i don't know if it's a methodist thing cos I don't think I've ever been

one. and dad was a bapist and my mother joined several cults over the

years so I have no idea what religion she was.

But as far as the parents always being right thing. that was always the

feedback I got when I went to church leaders, or church members for

advise or comfort regarding my parents. now matter what I described as

the problem, it was always that I was wrong and they were right, cos I

was the child and they were the parent.

** , Stinky's caretaker**

Froehliche Weihnachten,

Merry Christmas

[Guest guest]

i don't know if it's a methodist thing cos I don't think I've ever been

one. and dad was a bapist and my mother joined several cults over the

years so I have no idea what religion she was.

But as far as the parents always being right thing. that was always the

feedback I got when I went to church leaders, or church members for

advise or comfort regarding my parents. now matter what I described as

the problem, it was always that I was wrong and they were right, cos I

was the child and they were the parent.

** , Stinky's caretaker**

Froehliche Weihnachten,

Merry Christmas

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

I never ever revealed the family secrets to anyone while I was growing

up. I didn't know what abuse was or that I was being abused. You might

want to read this article that was posted to one of the other WTO lists

this morning.

http://www.echonyc.com/~onissues/f95guilt.html

Cheers,

Edith

<<

i don't know if it's a methodist thing cos I don't think I've ever been

one. and dad was a bapist and my mother joined several cults over the

years so I have no idea what religion she was.

But as far as the parents always being right thing. that was always the

feedback I got when I went to church leaders, or church members for

advise or comfort regarding my parents. now matter what I described as

the problem, it was always that I was wrong and they were right, cos I

was the child and they were the parent.

>>

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

I never ever revealed the family secrets to anyone while I was growing

up. I didn't know what abuse was or that I was being abused. You might

want to read this article that was posted to one of the other WTO lists

this morning.

http://www.echonyc.com/~onissues/f95guilt.html

Cheers,

Edith

<<

i don't know if it's a methodist thing cos I don't think I've ever been

one. and dad was a bapist and my mother joined several cults over the

years so I have no idea what religion she was.

But as far as the parents always being right thing. that was always the

feedback I got when I went to church leaders, or church members for

advise or comfort regarding my parents. now matter what I described as

the problem, it was always that I was wrong and they were right, cos I

was the child and they were the parent.

>>

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

I never ever revealed the family secrets to anyone while I was growing

up. I didn't know what abuse was or that I was being abused. You might

want to read this article that was posted to one of the other WTO lists

this morning.

http://www.echonyc.com/~onissues/f95guilt.html

Cheers,

Edith

<<

i don't know if it's a methodist thing cos I don't think I've ever been

one. and dad was a bapist and my mother joined several cults over the

years so I have no idea what religion she was.

But as far as the parents always being right thing. that was always the

feedback I got when I went to church leaders, or church members for

advise or comfort regarding my parents. now matter what I described as

the problem, it was always that I was wrong and they were right, cos I

was the child and they were the parent.

>>

[Guest guest]

i didn't reveal any family secrets as a child either. this stuff was

going even after I graduated college. most of it occured when I met my

dad and we couldn't get along. I was in my 30's at the time. but even

then, the parents were still right and I was still wrong.

** , Stinky's caretaker**

Froehliche Weihnachten,

Merry Christmas

[Guest guest]

i didn't reveal any family secrets as a child either. this stuff was

going even after I graduated college. most of it occured when I met my

dad and we couldn't get along. I was in my 30's at the time. but even

then, the parents were still right and I was still wrong.

** , Stinky's caretaker**

Froehliche Weihnachten,

Merry Christmas

[Guest guest]

i didn't reveal any family secrets as a child either. this stuff was

going even after I graduated college. most of it occured when I met my

dad and we couldn't get along. I was in my 30's at the time. but even

then, the parents were still right and I was still wrong.

** , Stinky's caretaker**

Froehliche Weihnachten,

Merry Christmas

[Guest guest]

> Hi ,

>

> I never ever revealed the family secrets to anyone while I was

growing

> up. I didn't know what abuse was or that I was being abused.

with the sexual molestation of the uncles, I knew that was abuse,

but it was so " ugly " and adding it into the abuse pot made the pot

overflow. I was ashamed bec. the truth of what went on in my

house was so ugly and it seemed " too much " to bear.

Kathleen

[Guest guest]

--- Edith wrote:

You might

> want to read this article that was posted to one of

> the other WTO lists

> this morning.

>

> http://www.echonyc.com/~onissues/f95guilt.html

>

> Cheers,

> Edith

Here is a quote from the link. I found it hard to

follow the concept of the link (although I would have

liked to,) but I find this quote contradictory to the

balance of the link which advises that it is only the

debtee (heirarchy who is to forgive.) Here it is:

" Even the Lord's Prayer, as recorded in the Gospel of

, asks God to " forgive us our debts as we

forgive our debtors. " The forgiveness clearly flows

downward -- from God through the petitioner to the

debtor. (And in Jesus' time forgiving a balance due

was no small matter: A debtor could legally be sold

into debt-slavery.) "

Hmmm, so we ask God to forgive us as we forgive our

debtors - aren't the debtors in our situation our

parents who did *owe* us love, safety, kindness and so

on? While a mother is in the heirarchal structure, she

too does behold a degree of obligation to her

children. In this, it also presents her as a debtor.

Then abused women, in the religious vows it says, " Do

you promise love, honor and cherish your wife? " Isn't

the husband then obligated to do these things for his

wife? Doesn't this then make him a debtor? While the

womans vows go like this - " Do you promise to love,

honor and obey? " This also obligates her. While the

woman is put in the position to obey her husband, her

husband, while he may not be obligated to obey, he is

obligated nontheless by the promise of loving,

honoring and cherishing. This puts them both in a

mutual type of relationship, albeit under different

guidelines. Imho this discounts the links message.

In many churches, they substitue the word debt for sin

and sin for sinners. So they pray, " Forgive us our

sins as we forgive those who sin against us. " This

doesn't leave any room for heirarchy - sin is sin.

We are all beholding and obligated to one another to

be respectful, loving, caring, etc. Heirarchy has

obligation and responsibility to those who owe them as

well. Look around at governmental structures - aren't

they obligated to protect thier countries and it's

people? Police officers who take vows to serve and

protect - they are in heirarchal positions yet they

also take a vow to serve and protect which obligates

them to us.

Should we forgive our nadas? That's an individual

choice. But I believe that forgiveness does set you

free. Otherwise you go through life with bitterness,

anger and resentments. This is a burden. Is it easy to

forgive a nada? No, it's not, but it can be done. It

doesn't happen overnight - it doesn't happen all at

once, often times it's a continuous process - for some

of us, perhaps lasting a lifetime.

Do I forgive my nada? I don't know. Somedays I feel as

if I do. I'm not sure it's forgiveness as much as it

is understanding that she's mentally ill. In that,

what is there to forgive? Perhaps God for permitting

mental illness to exist as a human issue? Perhaps

myself for having been angry, bitter and ignorant?

All I know is that by not forgiving (whatever that

is,) that it only hurts me... let God do what he will

with the debtee's. Give it to him...

Here's another quote from the link:

" So Mollie McLeod is right to be angry. If Andy Kille

sexually abused her while he was her pastor, the

church has no business asking Mollie to forgive him

until it has stripped him of his ordination. For the

church to preach a doctrine of forgiveness consistent

with its own scriptures, expecting her to bear the

brunt of the " reconciliation " is sheer hypocrisy. "

Absolutely, I agree with this statement in *itself*

but not within the context that it was written from.

That being that only heirarchy is to ask for

forgiveness - it is that this pastor took a vow to

serve the Lord and be a channel through which the Lord

works for the good of all people. He was obligated to

do good works for people - all people. He was

obligated (debtor,) to Mollie and to God... This makes

Mollie the debtee.

Maybe my brain is twisted - but people are beholding

to one another - people in heirarchy do have

obligations to those *under* them, albeit within

different contexts - but it exists nontheless. This is

balance. Imho, the link was black and white thinking.

Cyndie

ps - I also believe that forgiveness you give to

yourself, not something you *should* be FOGged into

doing. But I do believe in it. But it doesn't make you

a *bad* person if you cannot do it... it also doesn't

mean you put yourself back in the situation of being

victimized again.

Knowledge is Power

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

--- Edith wrote:

You might

> want to read this article that was posted to one of

> the other WTO lists

> this morning.

>

> http://www.echonyc.com/~onissues/f95guilt.html

>

> Cheers,

> Edith

Here is a quote from the link. I found it hard to

follow the concept of the link (although I would have

liked to,) but I find this quote contradictory to the

balance of the link which advises that it is only the

debtee (heirarchy who is to forgive.) Here it is:

" Even the Lord's Prayer, as recorded in the Gospel of

, asks God to " forgive us our debts as we

forgive our debtors. " The forgiveness clearly flows

downward -- from God through the petitioner to the

debtor. (And in Jesus' time forgiving a balance due

was no small matter: A debtor could legally be sold

into debt-slavery.) "

Hmmm, so we ask God to forgive us as we forgive our

debtors - aren't the debtors in our situation our

parents who did *owe* us love, safety, kindness and so

on? While a mother is in the heirarchal structure, she

too does behold a degree of obligation to her

children. In this, it also presents her as a debtor.

Then abused women, in the religious vows it says, " Do

you promise love, honor and cherish your wife? " Isn't

the husband then obligated to do these things for his

wife? Doesn't this then make him a debtor? While the

womans vows go like this - " Do you promise to love,

honor and obey? " This also obligates her. While the

woman is put in the position to obey her husband, her

husband, while he may not be obligated to obey, he is

obligated nontheless by the promise of loving,

honoring and cherishing. This puts them both in a

mutual type of relationship, albeit under different

guidelines. Imho this discounts the links message.

In many churches, they substitue the word debt for sin

and sin for sinners. So they pray, " Forgive us our

sins as we forgive those who sin against us. " This

doesn't leave any room for heirarchy - sin is sin.

We are all beholding and obligated to one another to

be respectful, loving, caring, etc. Heirarchy has

obligation and responsibility to those who owe them as

well. Look around at governmental structures - aren't

they obligated to protect thier countries and it's

people? Police officers who take vows to serve and

protect - they are in heirarchal positions yet they

also take a vow to serve and protect which obligates

them to us.

Should we forgive our nadas? That's an individual

choice. But I believe that forgiveness does set you

free. Otherwise you go through life with bitterness,

anger and resentments. This is a burden. Is it easy to

forgive a nada? No, it's not, but it can be done. It

doesn't happen overnight - it doesn't happen all at

once, often times it's a continuous process - for some

of us, perhaps lasting a lifetime.

Do I forgive my nada? I don't know. Somedays I feel as

if I do. I'm not sure it's forgiveness as much as it

is understanding that she's mentally ill. In that,

what is there to forgive? Perhaps God for permitting

mental illness to exist as a human issue? Perhaps

myself for having been angry, bitter and ignorant?

All I know is that by not forgiving (whatever that

is,) that it only hurts me... let God do what he will

with the debtee's. Give it to him...

Here's another quote from the link:

" So Mollie McLeod is right to be angry. If Andy Kille

sexually abused her while he was her pastor, the

church has no business asking Mollie to forgive him

until it has stripped him of his ordination. For the

church to preach a doctrine of forgiveness consistent

with its own scriptures, expecting her to bear the

brunt of the " reconciliation " is sheer hypocrisy. "

Absolutely, I agree with this statement in *itself*

but not within the context that it was written from.

That being that only heirarchy is to ask for

forgiveness - it is that this pastor took a vow to

serve the Lord and be a channel through which the Lord

works for the good of all people. He was obligated to

do good works for people - all people. He was

obligated (debtor,) to Mollie and to God... This makes

Mollie the debtee.

Maybe my brain is twisted - but people are beholding

to one another - people in heirarchy do have

obligations to those *under* them, albeit within

different contexts - but it exists nontheless. This is

balance. Imho, the link was black and white thinking.

Cyndie

ps - I also believe that forgiveness you give to

yourself, not something you *should* be FOGged into

doing. But I do believe in it. But it doesn't make you

a *bad* person if you cannot do it... it also doesn't

mean you put yourself back in the situation of being

victimized again.

Knowledge is Power

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

--- Edith wrote:

You might

> want to read this article that was posted to one of

> the other WTO lists

> this morning.

>

> http://www.echonyc.com/~onissues/f95guilt.html

>

> Cheers,

> Edith

Here is a quote from the link. I found it hard to

follow the concept of the link (although I would have

liked to,) but I find this quote contradictory to the

balance of the link which advises that it is only the

debtee (heirarchy who is to forgive.) Here it is:

" Even the Lord's Prayer, as recorded in the Gospel of

, asks God to " forgive us our debts as we

forgive our debtors. " The forgiveness clearly flows

downward -- from God through the petitioner to the

debtor. (And in Jesus' time forgiving a balance due

was no small matter: A debtor could legally be sold

into debt-slavery.) "

Hmmm, so we ask God to forgive us as we forgive our

debtors - aren't the debtors in our situation our

parents who did *owe* us love, safety, kindness and so

on? While a mother is in the heirarchal structure, she

too does behold a degree of obligation to her

children. In this, it also presents her as a debtor.

Then abused women, in the religious vows it says, " Do

you promise love, honor and cherish your wife? " Isn't

the husband then obligated to do these things for his

wife? Doesn't this then make him a debtor? While the

womans vows go like this - " Do you promise to love,

honor and obey? " This also obligates her. While the

woman is put in the position to obey her husband, her

husband, while he may not be obligated to obey, he is

obligated nontheless by the promise of loving,

honoring and cherishing. This puts them both in a

mutual type of relationship, albeit under different

guidelines. Imho this discounts the links message.

In many churches, they substitue the word debt for sin

and sin for sinners. So they pray, " Forgive us our

sins as we forgive those who sin against us. " This

doesn't leave any room for heirarchy - sin is sin.

We are all beholding and obligated to one another to

be respectful, loving, caring, etc. Heirarchy has

obligation and responsibility to those who owe them as

well. Look around at governmental structures - aren't

they obligated to protect thier countries and it's

people? Police officers who take vows to serve and

protect - they are in heirarchal positions yet they

also take a vow to serve and protect which obligates

them to us.

Should we forgive our nadas? That's an individual

choice. But I believe that forgiveness does set you

free. Otherwise you go through life with bitterness,

anger and resentments. This is a burden. Is it easy to

forgive a nada? No, it's not, but it can be done. It

doesn't happen overnight - it doesn't happen all at

once, often times it's a continuous process - for some

of us, perhaps lasting a lifetime.

Do I forgive my nada? I don't know. Somedays I feel as

if I do. I'm not sure it's forgiveness as much as it

is understanding that she's mentally ill. In that,

what is there to forgive? Perhaps God for permitting

mental illness to exist as a human issue? Perhaps

myself for having been angry, bitter and ignorant?

All I know is that by not forgiving (whatever that

is,) that it only hurts me... let God do what he will

with the debtee's. Give it to him...

Here's another quote from the link:

" So Mollie McLeod is right to be angry. If Andy Kille

sexually abused her while he was her pastor, the

church has no business asking Mollie to forgive him

until it has stripped him of his ordination. For the

church to preach a doctrine of forgiveness consistent

with its own scriptures, expecting her to bear the

brunt of the " reconciliation " is sheer hypocrisy. "

Absolutely, I agree with this statement in *itself*

but not within the context that it was written from.

That being that only heirarchy is to ask for

forgiveness - it is that this pastor took a vow to

serve the Lord and be a channel through which the Lord

works for the good of all people. He was obligated to

do good works for people - all people. He was

obligated (debtor,) to Mollie and to God... This makes

Mollie the debtee.

Maybe my brain is twisted - but people are beholding

to one another - people in heirarchy do have

obligations to those *under* them, albeit within

different contexts - but it exists nontheless. This is

balance. Imho, the link was black and white thinking.

Cyndie

ps - I also believe that forgiveness you give to

yourself, not something you *should* be FOGged into

doing. But I do believe in it. But it doesn't make you

a *bad* person if you cannot do it... it also doesn't

mean you put yourself back in the situation of being

victimized again.

Knowledge is Power

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

i read the article too, but didn't quite " get " it. I believe that blanket

forgiveness serves the group and gets the perpetrators off the

hook. Everyone moves on rather than dealing with the dirt.

Every person is precious in the eyes of God. Covering things up

to protect the villain or the society, or the family smacks of a lack

of integrity. It is sacrificing and blaming the innocent.

I'd rather take the risk of not forgiving, yet not doing harm. Is that

forgiving? Maybe it is the hard thing to do. But we shouldn't have

to, for the sake of " how things look " ever have to eat at the

molesters table, shove it under the rug, or pose in wedding

pictures. I've done that and it has harmed me.

I don't know about the forgiveness thing.

Kathleen

[Guest guest]

i read the article too, but didn't quite " get " it. I believe that blanket

forgiveness serves the group and gets the perpetrators off the

hook. Everyone moves on rather than dealing with the dirt.

Every person is precious in the eyes of God. Covering things up

to protect the villain or the society, or the family smacks of a lack

of integrity. It is sacrificing and blaming the innocent.

I'd rather take the risk of not forgiving, yet not doing harm. Is that

forgiving? Maybe it is the hard thing to do. But we shouldn't have

to, for the sake of " how things look " ever have to eat at the

molesters table, shove it under the rug, or pose in wedding

pictures. I've done that and it has harmed me.

I don't know about the forgiveness thing.

Kathleen

[Guest guest]

i read the article too, but didn't quite " get " it. I believe that blanket

forgiveness serves the group and gets the perpetrators off the

hook. Everyone moves on rather than dealing with the dirt.

Every person is precious in the eyes of God. Covering things up

to protect the villain or the society, or the family smacks of a lack

of integrity. It is sacrificing and blaming the innocent.

I'd rather take the risk of not forgiving, yet not doing harm. Is that

forgiving? Maybe it is the hard thing to do. But we shouldn't have

to, for the sake of " how things look " ever have to eat at the

molesters table, shove it under the rug, or pose in wedding

pictures. I've done that and it has harmed me.

I don't know about the forgiveness thing.

Kathleen

[Guest guest]

I think the word " forgiveness " is one of the most misunderstood words in

the world, no matter what the language.

I think from growing up we have learned that someone does something,

(bump into someone at the store), they say -sorry, the person says-

that's ok, and everyone goes on with their life.

that doesn't work when it comes to major stuff like ours, people who

have abused and all that crap. we can't say- that's ok and move on. we

can't expect the person, in this case mostly our mother's to say- sorry

for all the crap i put you through. or if they say actually believe they

mean it.

no. forgiveness is something completly different and for us even more

important. to me forgiveness means understanding, accepting and moving

on. and it means that not only we need to forgive the parent and maybe

siblings or others who enabled but mostly forgiving ourselves. because

lets face it, most of us, at one point or another thought we were

responsible for that stuff.

So what do I mean by forgiveness- understandinf- that means learning

what we can about our parents and their illness. it means finding out

what is wrong, they are BPD, or an alcoholic, whatever. Then

understanding the illness and what it does to people, including those

around them.

Accepting- it's a little hard, but it simple means that we accept the

truth. they are the way they are because... and they didn't know any

better due to that and probably will never change unless it's for the

worse.

Moving on- means, letting go of the anger and fear and whatever emotions

are hurting us so that we can lead a more fullfilling less painful life.

It also means that we need to decide how to protect ourselves from that

abusive situation. Some may choose to assert themselves, set boundaries,

or if there is no other choice, complete seperation from the people

involved.

It's more like- I understand why you are the way you are, I'm not angry

but for my own well being I need to end this relationship. instead of

" it's ok that you have treated me like this all of these years " . Big

difference.

** , Stinky's caretaker**

Froehliche Weihnachten,

Merry Christmas

[Guest guest]

I think the word " forgiveness " is one of the most misunderstood words in

the world, no matter what the language.

I think from growing up we have learned that someone does something,

(bump into someone at the store), they say -sorry, the person says-

that's ok, and everyone goes on with their life.

that doesn't work when it comes to major stuff like ours, people who

have abused and all that crap. we can't say- that's ok and move on. we

can't expect the person, in this case mostly our mother's to say- sorry

for all the crap i put you through. or if they say actually believe they

mean it.

no. forgiveness is something completly different and for us even more

important. to me forgiveness means understanding, accepting and moving

on. and it means that not only we need to forgive the parent and maybe

siblings or others who enabled but mostly forgiving ourselves. because

lets face it, most of us, at one point or another thought we were

responsible for that stuff.

So what do I mean by forgiveness- understandinf- that means learning

what we can about our parents and their illness. it means finding out

what is wrong, they are BPD, or an alcoholic, whatever. Then

understanding the illness and what it does to people, including those

around them.

Accepting- it's a little hard, but it simple means that we accept the

truth. they are the way they are because... and they didn't know any

better due to that and probably will never change unless it's for the

worse.

Moving on- means, letting go of the anger and fear and whatever emotions

are hurting us so that we can lead a more fullfilling less painful life.

It also means that we need to decide how to protect ourselves from that

abusive situation. Some may choose to assert themselves, set boundaries,

or if there is no other choice, complete seperation from the people

involved.

It's more like- I understand why you are the way you are, I'm not angry

but for my own well being I need to end this relationship. instead of

" it's ok that you have treated me like this all of these years " . Big

difference.

** , Stinky's caretaker**

Froehliche Weihnachten,

Merry Christmas

[Guest guest]

--- andy24747@... wrote:

> I think the word " forgiveness " is one of the most

> misunderstood words in

> the world, no matter what the language.

I agree. Many people use it as a tool for

manipulation, or use it, as Kathleen put it, to sweep

things under the rug.

And Kathleen, I don't know about you, but if I read

something and it makes no sense, it's probably because

there isn't much sense to it. The link was confusing.

I think confusion is a state of mind that we've all

been well to familiar with. Usually if I'm left

confused by something it's because there is some

illogic attached to it. It's more confusing when there

is some truth to what is being said. I did agree with

some of the stuff he wrote.

I agreed with the guy in that link to the point where

people in authority appear to be absolved of their

wrongdoings and ask us (the victims,) to be the bigger

people who need to forgive - thus vicitmizing a person

over again by putting it back on them. I mean look at

the situations he brought up. There was definitely a

gross misuse of the word - the contexts of which were

blatant manipulations.

However, I just feel that he left out some very

pertinent points - that being that although people are

in heirarchal positions does not mean that they are

not obligated in some sense or other to their debtees

in return.

In my thinking, his link perpetuates victimization

itself. It just leaves you stuck there. And that is

not to say that these perpetrators should not be held

accountable - they damned well should. I just don't

happen to think his theory is on cue.

I'd like to see his wife Hannah on the Oprah show and

see if she is as bitter as it appears she may be. I

don't know, I've seen Oprah - and I say there's a

woman who's gotten over and through a lot of issues

through the stages you mentioned. Knowledge

(understanding,) Acceptance and Moving on.

A quote comes to mind in reading that link:

" There are offences given and offences not given but

taken. "

-Izaak Walton

Take care,

Cyndie

>

> I think from growing up we have learned that someone

> does something,

> (bump into someone at the store), they say -sorry,

> the person says-

> that's ok, and everyone goes on with their life.

>

> that doesn't work when it comes to major stuff like

> ours, people who

> have abused and all that crap. we can't say- that's

> ok and move on. we

> can't expect the person, in this case mostly our

> mother's to say- sorry

> for all the crap i put you through. or if they say

> actually believe they

> mean it.

>

> no. forgiveness is something completly different and

> for us even more

> important. to me forgiveness means understanding,

> accepting and moving

> on. and it means that not only we need to forgive

> the parent and maybe

> siblings or others who enabled but mostly forgiving

> ourselves. because

> lets face it, most of us, at one point or another

> thought we were

> responsible for that stuff.

>

> So what do I mean by forgiveness- understandinf-

> that means learning

> what we can about our parents and their illness. it

> means finding out

> what is wrong, they are BPD, or an alcoholic,

> whatever. Then

> understanding the illness and what it does to

> people, including those

> around them.

>

> Accepting- it's a little hard, but it simple means

> that we accept the

> truth. they are the way they are because... and they

> didn't know any

> better due to that and probably will never change

> unless it's for the

> worse.

>

> Moving on- means, letting go of the anger and fear

> and whatever emotions

> are hurting us so that we can lead a more

> fullfilling less painful life.

> It also means that we need to decide how to protect

> ourselves from that

> abusive situation. Some may choose to assert

> themselves, set boundaries,

> or if there is no other choice, complete seperation

> from the people

> involved.

>

> It's more like- I understand why you are the way you

> are, I'm not angry

> but for my own well being I need to end this

> relationship. instead of

> " it's ok that you have treated me like this all of

> these years " . Big

> difference.

>

> ** , Stinky's caretaker**

> Froehliche Weihnachten,

> Merry Christmas

>

>

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