Guest guest Posted November 6, 2001 Report Share Posted November 6, 2001 This is a difficult situation. What we do to encourage SD's relationship with her mom is to encourage her to share things, we never criticize or " react " to what she says about her mom, and we stress all the time how we feel it's very important for kids to have both parents in their life. You're not responsible for your SD's relationship with her mom, though. All you can do is set a good example of an adult figure in her life, encourage her to love herself and trust her feelings and experiences, and maybe teach her that there is a whole spectrum of things out there and lots of shades of " gray. " Good luck! << I am fairly new to this group. I had a situation today at my stepdaughter's therapy appointment. Her therapist asked me to come and talk with her. She then said that my sd has gotten the idea that she can cut ties with her mom in part because I have cut ties with my dad. Her mom has been diagnosed with bi-polar and bpd. I have cut ties with my bpd dad since I was 19. I have talked with all my kids about my dad's mental illness and how hurtful he was and that I chose not to continue a relationship with him when I was 19. There was a lot of abuse. I don't go into the details but there needed to be some explanation as to why they never met him. The therapist thought I should encourage sd to work at a relationship with her bpd mom. I guess I should have asked how she thought I could do this. I have talked with sd about how encouraging it is that her mom will go out to dinner with her and is going to therapy with her. Well what do you think? >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 6, 2001 Report Share Posted November 6, 2001 This is a difficult situation. What we do to encourage SD's relationship with her mom is to encourage her to share things, we never criticize or " react " to what she says about her mom, and we stress all the time how we feel it's very important for kids to have both parents in their life. You're not responsible for your SD's relationship with her mom, though. All you can do is set a good example of an adult figure in her life, encourage her to love herself and trust her feelings and experiences, and maybe teach her that there is a whole spectrum of things out there and lots of shades of " gray. " Good luck! << I am fairly new to this group. I had a situation today at my stepdaughter's therapy appointment. Her therapist asked me to come and talk with her. She then said that my sd has gotten the idea that she can cut ties with her mom in part because I have cut ties with my dad. Her mom has been diagnosed with bi-polar and bpd. I have cut ties with my bpd dad since I was 19. I have talked with all my kids about my dad's mental illness and how hurtful he was and that I chose not to continue a relationship with him when I was 19. There was a lot of abuse. I don't go into the details but there needed to be some explanation as to why they never met him. The therapist thought I should encourage sd to work at a relationship with her bpd mom. I guess I should have asked how she thought I could do this. I have talked with sd about how encouraging it is that her mom will go out to dinner with her and is going to therapy with her. Well what do you think? >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 6, 2001 Report Share Posted November 6, 2001 Hi M, I had a few questions -- 1) How old is your stepdaugher? 2) How involved is her BPD mother in her life? Does she have partial custody, etc.? 3) You wrote << I have talked with sd about how encouraging it is that her mom will go out to dinner with her and is going to therapy with her. >> Is her mom seeking treatment specifically for the BPD? Is she just going to therapy with your sd, or does she go to individual therapy as well? Does she genuinely seem to want to recover (I realize this is a hard question to answer)? How long ago was she diagnosed? In what way is it an encouraging sign that her mom will go out to dinner with her? I mean, is this something she refused to do in the past? And if so, what were the reasons she gave? 4) Aside from the fact that you've cut ties with your dad, does your sd have other good reasons for wanting to cut ties with her mom? How does her mom treat her? 5) How much does the therapist know about BPs? It's possible that she has a good reason for recommending that your sd continue to work on the relationship. Or, it's possible that she doesn't know very much about BPD and is recommending this based on ignorance. Many people -- therapists included -- believe that family ties can overcome the greatest obstacles; they don't understand how terribly abusive it can be to stay in a relationship with a BP. They foolishly say, " Oh, it can be worked out. You're just not trying hard enough. " With BPs, a lot of the time it doesn't matter how hard you try -- it just ain't never gonna work (obviously, each person's situation is unique, though, and some people ARE able to maintain some kind of relationship with their BP parent). As far as encouraging your sd to have a relationship with her mother: depending on your sd's age and the legal situation (like custody and things like that), you might want to consider supporting her in her decision-making process, and then supporting whatever decision she thinks is best for herself. This is what KOs need -- instead of being told what to do or how to feel (i.e., " I think you should work on the relationship " or " Your therapist thinks you should work on the relationship " ), we need to be supported in making our OWN decisions. As adults, many of us have difficulty doing this because our parents never taught us how, or trusted us to do it. So now we don't even trust ourselves to figure out what's best for ourselves. So, this may be a good opportunity to teach this valuable skill to your sd by showing her that you trust and support her ability to know what's best for herself. Of course, if you think there are good reasons for trying to work on the relationship (or not), then by all means, discuss these with her. They may be things she hasn't thought of and might want to consider while making her decision. But I think it's important to encourage her to do what SHE thinks is best. And also be there for her if she wants help figuring it out. For example, I like to talk things over with my husband, bounce ideas off of him and get his feedback. I still make the decision for myself in the end, but I like to involve him in the process sometimes. And, also, be there for her down the road if she ends up feeling like she's made a mistake. Don't judge her and say, " You should have listened to that therapist! " We all make mistakes, and as KOs we're learning by trial and error things we should have learned as children but never did. I'm saying all of this based on the assumption that your sd is at least in her late teens and that her mother does not have legal custody. I have also made a lot of assumptions about what is going on. I think it will be helpful if you answer my questions above -- it will paint a more complete picture, and then maybe we'll be able to give you some more feedback. We try to abstain from giving advice, because each person has to figure out what's best for them (what works for me may not work at all for you). We are always happy to share our thoughts, however. Take care, Anon --- M Sweeney wrote: > I am fairly new to this group. > > I had a situation today at my stepdaughter's therapy > appointment. Her therapist asked me to come and talk > with her. She then said that my sd has gotten the idea > that she can cut ties with her mom in part because I > have cut ties with my dad. Her mom has been diagnosed > with bi-polar and bpd. > > I have cut ties with my bpd dad since I was 19. I have > talked with all my kids about my dad's mental illness > and how hurtful he was and that I chose not to > continue a relationship with him when I was 19. There > was a lot of abuse. I don't go into the details but > there needed to be some explanation as to why they > never met him. > > The therapist thought I should encourage sd to work at > a relationship with her bpd mom. > > I guess I should have asked how she thought I could do > this. > > I have talked with sd about how encouraging it is that > her mom will go out to dinner with her and is going to > therapy with her. > > Well what do you think? __________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 6, 2001 Report Share Posted November 6, 2001 Hi M, I had a few questions -- 1) How old is your stepdaugher? 2) How involved is her BPD mother in her life? Does she have partial custody, etc.? 3) You wrote << I have talked with sd about how encouraging it is that her mom will go out to dinner with her and is going to therapy with her. >> Is her mom seeking treatment specifically for the BPD? Is she just going to therapy with your sd, or does she go to individual therapy as well? Does she genuinely seem to want to recover (I realize this is a hard question to answer)? How long ago was she diagnosed? In what way is it an encouraging sign that her mom will go out to dinner with her? I mean, is this something she refused to do in the past? And if so, what were the reasons she gave? 4) Aside from the fact that you've cut ties with your dad, does your sd have other good reasons for wanting to cut ties with her mom? How does her mom treat her? 5) How much does the therapist know about BPs? It's possible that she has a good reason for recommending that your sd continue to work on the relationship. Or, it's possible that she doesn't know very much about BPD and is recommending this based on ignorance. Many people -- therapists included -- believe that family ties can overcome the greatest obstacles; they don't understand how terribly abusive it can be to stay in a relationship with a BP. They foolishly say, " Oh, it can be worked out. You're just not trying hard enough. " With BPs, a lot of the time it doesn't matter how hard you try -- it just ain't never gonna work (obviously, each person's situation is unique, though, and some people ARE able to maintain some kind of relationship with their BP parent). As far as encouraging your sd to have a relationship with her mother: depending on your sd's age and the legal situation (like custody and things like that), you might want to consider supporting her in her decision-making process, and then supporting whatever decision she thinks is best for herself. This is what KOs need -- instead of being told what to do or how to feel (i.e., " I think you should work on the relationship " or " Your therapist thinks you should work on the relationship " ), we need to be supported in making our OWN decisions. As adults, many of us have difficulty doing this because our parents never taught us how, or trusted us to do it. So now we don't even trust ourselves to figure out what's best for ourselves. So, this may be a good opportunity to teach this valuable skill to your sd by showing her that you trust and support her ability to know what's best for herself. Of course, if you think there are good reasons for trying to work on the relationship (or not), then by all means, discuss these with her. They may be things she hasn't thought of and might want to consider while making her decision. But I think it's important to encourage her to do what SHE thinks is best. And also be there for her if she wants help figuring it out. For example, I like to talk things over with my husband, bounce ideas off of him and get his feedback. I still make the decision for myself in the end, but I like to involve him in the process sometimes. And, also, be there for her down the road if she ends up feeling like she's made a mistake. Don't judge her and say, " You should have listened to that therapist! " We all make mistakes, and as KOs we're learning by trial and error things we should have learned as children but never did. I'm saying all of this based on the assumption that your sd is at least in her late teens and that her mother does not have legal custody. I have also made a lot of assumptions about what is going on. I think it will be helpful if you answer my questions above -- it will paint a more complete picture, and then maybe we'll be able to give you some more feedback. We try to abstain from giving advice, because each person has to figure out what's best for them (what works for me may not work at all for you). We are always happy to share our thoughts, however. Take care, Anon --- M Sweeney wrote: > I am fairly new to this group. > > I had a situation today at my stepdaughter's therapy > appointment. Her therapist asked me to come and talk > with her. She then said that my sd has gotten the idea > that she can cut ties with her mom in part because I > have cut ties with my dad. Her mom has been diagnosed > with bi-polar and bpd. > > I have cut ties with my bpd dad since I was 19. I have > talked with all my kids about my dad's mental illness > and how hurtful he was and that I chose not to > continue a relationship with him when I was 19. There > was a lot of abuse. I don't go into the details but > there needed to be some explanation as to why they > never met him. > > The therapist thought I should encourage sd to work at > a relationship with her bpd mom. > > I guess I should have asked how she thought I could do > this. > > I have talked with sd about how encouraging it is that > her mom will go out to dinner with her and is going to > therapy with her. > > Well what do you think? __________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 6, 2001 Report Share Posted November 6, 2001 Hi M, I had a few questions -- 1) How old is your stepdaugher? 2) How involved is her BPD mother in her life? Does she have partial custody, etc.? 3) You wrote << I have talked with sd about how encouraging it is that her mom will go out to dinner with her and is going to therapy with her. >> Is her mom seeking treatment specifically for the BPD? Is she just going to therapy with your sd, or does she go to individual therapy as well? Does she genuinely seem to want to recover (I realize this is a hard question to answer)? How long ago was she diagnosed? In what way is it an encouraging sign that her mom will go out to dinner with her? I mean, is this something she refused to do in the past? And if so, what were the reasons she gave? 4) Aside from the fact that you've cut ties with your dad, does your sd have other good reasons for wanting to cut ties with her mom? How does her mom treat her? 5) How much does the therapist know about BPs? It's possible that she has a good reason for recommending that your sd continue to work on the relationship. Or, it's possible that she doesn't know very much about BPD and is recommending this based on ignorance. Many people -- therapists included -- believe that family ties can overcome the greatest obstacles; they don't understand how terribly abusive it can be to stay in a relationship with a BP. They foolishly say, " Oh, it can be worked out. You're just not trying hard enough. " With BPs, a lot of the time it doesn't matter how hard you try -- it just ain't never gonna work (obviously, each person's situation is unique, though, and some people ARE able to maintain some kind of relationship with their BP parent). As far as encouraging your sd to have a relationship with her mother: depending on your sd's age and the legal situation (like custody and things like that), you might want to consider supporting her in her decision-making process, and then supporting whatever decision she thinks is best for herself. This is what KOs need -- instead of being told what to do or how to feel (i.e., " I think you should work on the relationship " or " Your therapist thinks you should work on the relationship " ), we need to be supported in making our OWN decisions. As adults, many of us have difficulty doing this because our parents never taught us how, or trusted us to do it. So now we don't even trust ourselves to figure out what's best for ourselves. So, this may be a good opportunity to teach this valuable skill to your sd by showing her that you trust and support her ability to know what's best for herself. Of course, if you think there are good reasons for trying to work on the relationship (or not), then by all means, discuss these with her. They may be things she hasn't thought of and might want to consider while making her decision. But I think it's important to encourage her to do what SHE thinks is best. And also be there for her if she wants help figuring it out. For example, I like to talk things over with my husband, bounce ideas off of him and get his feedback. I still make the decision for myself in the end, but I like to involve him in the process sometimes. And, also, be there for her down the road if she ends up feeling like she's made a mistake. Don't judge her and say, " You should have listened to that therapist! " We all make mistakes, and as KOs we're learning by trial and error things we should have learned as children but never did. I'm saying all of this based on the assumption that your sd is at least in her late teens and that her mother does not have legal custody. I have also made a lot of assumptions about what is going on. I think it will be helpful if you answer my questions above -- it will paint a more complete picture, and then maybe we'll be able to give you some more feedback. We try to abstain from giving advice, because each person has to figure out what's best for them (what works for me may not work at all for you). We are always happy to share our thoughts, however. Take care, Anon --- M Sweeney wrote: > I am fairly new to this group. > > I had a situation today at my stepdaughter's therapy > appointment. Her therapist asked me to come and talk > with her. She then said that my sd has gotten the idea > that she can cut ties with her mom in part because I > have cut ties with my dad. Her mom has been diagnosed > with bi-polar and bpd. > > I have cut ties with my bpd dad since I was 19. I have > talked with all my kids about my dad's mental illness > and how hurtful he was and that I chose not to > continue a relationship with him when I was 19. There > was a lot of abuse. I don't go into the details but > there needed to be some explanation as to why they > never met him. > > The therapist thought I should encourage sd to work at > a relationship with her bpd mom. > > I guess I should have asked how she thought I could do > this. > > I have talked with sd about how encouraging it is that > her mom will go out to dinner with her and is going to > therapy with her. > > Well what do you think? __________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 6, 2001 Report Share Posted November 6, 2001 Thanks for your insight. My sd is 13. She sees her mom once a week for a 2 hour period to eat dinner and then every other week for family therapy. Her mom is receiving treatment with a psychiatrist and is on Depakote. She is also seeing a psychologist who is working with her more intensively regarding her BPD and BP. Both treatment/therapy are court ordered. I think she (mom) feels ambivalent about it. On one hand she likes the attention and the labels (she waves them like banners when she's held accountable for her behavior) and then denies them saying she hit her head or is having a reaction to medications she's taking and that she does not have BPD or BP. She was diagnosed with BPD and BP within the last 2 months. Previously, she had been diagnosed with drug and alcohol addictions and eating disorder 20 years ago. She received outpatient treatment for substance abuse about 8 years ago and had been currently being treated for anxiety disorder. It was encouraging that she was going out to dinner with my sd because mom wasn't drinking in my sd presence. Mom has complained about the inconvenience but has continued to show up. Today in court mom said the dinners are very difficult. She had started off by saying that because of her meds. she has difficulty with night vision and that was why the dinners were difficult. We said she could pick us sd from school at 3 and bring her home at 5 before it got dark. Mom then said the dinners were difficult emotionally after their therapy appointment. We said she could have dinner with her on a different day than the therapy appointment. Then she said it was difficult to be with sd for the whole 2 hours. We said sd could come home any time 1 hour, 1 1/2 hours... whatever. Then she complained that sd can make changes (ie, last week sd asked mom if she could go to dinner with her Tuesday instead of Wednesday because of Halloween, her mom said yes) but she (mom) can't. At this point, the judge said if you want to cancel a dinner you can but there are no make-ups. I am afraid my sd's mom is searching for an excuse/someone to blame to stop having this minimal amount of contact with sd. My sd mom has made many poor choices (drinking and driving, being relationships with married and violent men) and given my sd inappropriate responsiblities ( caring for her youngest child from another marriage, making sd a confidant). But sd has indicated she wants some type of relationship with her mom, she's also said she could see her mom every few years and that would be fine. I think my sd's therapist has picked up from my sd that she wants to work on the relationship with her mom but that it is very difficult. I also think the therapist's general philosophy is that it is in a child's best interest to have a positive relationship with their parents. The therapist has actually been very helpful with the guardian ad litem making changes to the visitation schedule from weekend visits to the dinner time visits. So I think she doesn't have any problem with the contact being " different " than traditional but believes it is still necessary. I don't know the extent of her knowledge regarding BPD. There is a whole team working with us including a wiseperson (a social worker), the guardian ad litem (an attorney), ss therapist (a psychologist), ss psychiatrist, sd therapist (a psychologist), sd and mom family therapist (psychologist), mom's therapist (a psychologist) and mom's psychiatrist. I think the goal of the " team " is to establish and maintain positive relationships between sd, ss with their mom. Recognizing safety and empowerment. I think my sd does feel supported. I hope she does. I have told her, sincerely, how impressed I am with her. She is an amazing person. My husband and I ask her often what she needs from us and what we can to to help her. I guess a good reason to work on the relationship is that it is always there. I have made a good and conscious decision not to be in contact with my dad. I still mourn that relationship. I still miss it. I guess I want her to be very proactive and not reactive. I also had a relationship with my grandmother who had BPD that was very positive. I think there may be some aspects of the relationship my sd has with her mom that my sd does appreciate and benefit from. Thank you again for your feedback. Just thinking more indepth about " why " it might or might not benefit my sd to work on the relationship with her mom has been helpful. M. __________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 6, 2001 Report Share Posted November 6, 2001 Thanks for your insight. My sd is 13. She sees her mom once a week for a 2 hour period to eat dinner and then every other week for family therapy. Her mom is receiving treatment with a psychiatrist and is on Depakote. She is also seeing a psychologist who is working with her more intensively regarding her BPD and BP. Both treatment/therapy are court ordered. I think she (mom) feels ambivalent about it. On one hand she likes the attention and the labels (she waves them like banners when she's held accountable for her behavior) and then denies them saying she hit her head or is having a reaction to medications she's taking and that she does not have BPD or BP. She was diagnosed with BPD and BP within the last 2 months. Previously, she had been diagnosed with drug and alcohol addictions and eating disorder 20 years ago. She received outpatient treatment for substance abuse about 8 years ago and had been currently being treated for anxiety disorder. It was encouraging that she was going out to dinner with my sd because mom wasn't drinking in my sd presence. Mom has complained about the inconvenience but has continued to show up. Today in court mom said the dinners are very difficult. She had started off by saying that because of her meds. she has difficulty with night vision and that was why the dinners were difficult. We said she could pick us sd from school at 3 and bring her home at 5 before it got dark. Mom then said the dinners were difficult emotionally after their therapy appointment. We said she could have dinner with her on a different day than the therapy appointment. Then she said it was difficult to be with sd for the whole 2 hours. We said sd could come home any time 1 hour, 1 1/2 hours... whatever. Then she complained that sd can make changes (ie, last week sd asked mom if she could go to dinner with her Tuesday instead of Wednesday because of Halloween, her mom said yes) but she (mom) can't. At this point, the judge said if you want to cancel a dinner you can but there are no make-ups. I am afraid my sd's mom is searching for an excuse/someone to blame to stop having this minimal amount of contact with sd. My sd mom has made many poor choices (drinking and driving, being relationships with married and violent men) and given my sd inappropriate responsiblities ( caring for her youngest child from another marriage, making sd a confidant). But sd has indicated she wants some type of relationship with her mom, she's also said she could see her mom every few years and that would be fine. I think my sd's therapist has picked up from my sd that she wants to work on the relationship with her mom but that it is very difficult. I also think the therapist's general philosophy is that it is in a child's best interest to have a positive relationship with their parents. The therapist has actually been very helpful with the guardian ad litem making changes to the visitation schedule from weekend visits to the dinner time visits. So I think she doesn't have any problem with the contact being " different " than traditional but believes it is still necessary. I don't know the extent of her knowledge regarding BPD. There is a whole team working with us including a wiseperson (a social worker), the guardian ad litem (an attorney), ss therapist (a psychologist), ss psychiatrist, sd therapist (a psychologist), sd and mom family therapist (psychologist), mom's therapist (a psychologist) and mom's psychiatrist. I think the goal of the " team " is to establish and maintain positive relationships between sd, ss with their mom. Recognizing safety and empowerment. I think my sd does feel supported. I hope she does. I have told her, sincerely, how impressed I am with her. She is an amazing person. My husband and I ask her often what she needs from us and what we can to to help her. I guess a good reason to work on the relationship is that it is always there. I have made a good and conscious decision not to be in contact with my dad. I still mourn that relationship. I still miss it. I guess I want her to be very proactive and not reactive. I also had a relationship with my grandmother who had BPD that was very positive. I think there may be some aspects of the relationship my sd has with her mom that my sd does appreciate and benefit from. Thank you again for your feedback. Just thinking more indepth about " why " it might or might not benefit my sd to work on the relationship with her mom has been helpful. M. __________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 7, 2001 Report Share Posted November 7, 2001 --- M Sweeney wrote: > The therapist thought I should encourage sd to work > at > a relationship with her bpd mom. Hi - I thought Anon raised good questions. How aware is the therapist about BPD? BPD mothers do great damage to their kids. I see red flags about this myself. Maybe I'm a bit cynical and skeptical, but I think the therapist is setting up unreasistic expectations which could lead to more confusion and hurt for your sd. > > I guess I should have asked how she thought I could > do > this. Yeah, like what IS the therapist thinking? I read your other post - it doesn't appear that the mother has made much progress - it appears the mother could care less about seeing her daughter. Ouch, that's got to hurt your sd? Once again, I think it's a bad idea to encourage a relationship. How aware and understanding is your sd about her mothers illness? Is she able, at the tender and confusing age of 13 to separate her mothers rejection/mental illness from herself? Or does she take it personally? > > I have talked with sd about how encouraging it is > that > her mom will go out to dinner with her and is going > to > therapy with her. I would be leary of setting up unrealistic expectations. From what you posted, her mother doesn't appear that willing to do those dinners. Rather than *telling* your sd that it's encouraging, I think I might ask her what she feels and thinks about it. What I'm trying to say here is that, people would tell me how I *should* feel or think - it didn't change what I felt or thought inside - it only confused me, left me feeling invalidated - minimized the situation - and set up unrealistic expectations. Hope this helps - and sorry if I'm a bit cynical and skeptical. Just thinking about the child. Been there and done that. Good Luck, Cyndie __________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 7, 2001 Report Share Posted November 7, 2001 --- M Sweeney wrote: > The therapist thought I should encourage sd to work > at > a relationship with her bpd mom. Hi - I thought Anon raised good questions. How aware is the therapist about BPD? BPD mothers do great damage to their kids. I see red flags about this myself. Maybe I'm a bit cynical and skeptical, but I think the therapist is setting up unreasistic expectations which could lead to more confusion and hurt for your sd. > > I guess I should have asked how she thought I could > do > this. Yeah, like what IS the therapist thinking? I read your other post - it doesn't appear that the mother has made much progress - it appears the mother could care less about seeing her daughter. Ouch, that's got to hurt your sd? Once again, I think it's a bad idea to encourage a relationship. How aware and understanding is your sd about her mothers illness? Is she able, at the tender and confusing age of 13 to separate her mothers rejection/mental illness from herself? Or does she take it personally? > > I have talked with sd about how encouraging it is > that > her mom will go out to dinner with her and is going > to > therapy with her. I would be leary of setting up unrealistic expectations. From what you posted, her mother doesn't appear that willing to do those dinners. Rather than *telling* your sd that it's encouraging, I think I might ask her what she feels and thinks about it. What I'm trying to say here is that, people would tell me how I *should* feel or think - it didn't change what I felt or thought inside - it only confused me, left me feeling invalidated - minimized the situation - and set up unrealistic expectations. Hope this helps - and sorry if I'm a bit cynical and skeptical. Just thinking about the child. Been there and done that. Good Luck, Cyndie __________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 7, 2001 Report Share Posted November 7, 2001 --- M Sweeney wrote: > The therapist thought I should encourage sd to work > at > a relationship with her bpd mom. Hi - I thought Anon raised good questions. How aware is the therapist about BPD? BPD mothers do great damage to their kids. I see red flags about this myself. Maybe I'm a bit cynical and skeptical, but I think the therapist is setting up unreasistic expectations which could lead to more confusion and hurt for your sd. > > I guess I should have asked how she thought I could > do > this. Yeah, like what IS the therapist thinking? I read your other post - it doesn't appear that the mother has made much progress - it appears the mother could care less about seeing her daughter. Ouch, that's got to hurt your sd? Once again, I think it's a bad idea to encourage a relationship. How aware and understanding is your sd about her mothers illness? Is she able, at the tender and confusing age of 13 to separate her mothers rejection/mental illness from herself? Or does she take it personally? > > I have talked with sd about how encouraging it is > that > her mom will go out to dinner with her and is going > to > therapy with her. I would be leary of setting up unrealistic expectations. From what you posted, her mother doesn't appear that willing to do those dinners. Rather than *telling* your sd that it's encouraging, I think I might ask her what she feels and thinks about it. What I'm trying to say here is that, people would tell me how I *should* feel or think - it didn't change what I felt or thought inside - it only confused me, left me feeling invalidated - minimized the situation - and set up unrealistic expectations. Hope this helps - and sorry if I'm a bit cynical and skeptical. Just thinking about the child. Been there and done that. Good Luck, Cyndie __________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 7, 2001 Report Share Posted November 7, 2001 Hi M, Anon is right on. That therapist put you on the defensive but there are questions you can ask the therapist about her qualifications to treat people with BPD, or the children of BPDs. See SWOE, p. 238-239. Lots of therapists are not qualified to work with people with BPD, and BPDs who aren't committed to doing the hard work necessary to get better have an affinity for therapists that they can manipulate. Also, ask the therapist if she's heard of Randi's book, Stop Walking On Eggshells, and Ann Lawson's book. Understanding The Borderline Mother. Tossing in my .05, Edith << Hi M, I had a few questions -- 1) How old is your stepdaugher? 2) How involved is her BPD mother in her life? Does she have partial custody, etc.? 3) You wrote << I have talked with sd about how encouraging it is that her mom will go out to dinner with her and is going to therapy with her. >> Is her mom seeking treatment specifically for the BPD? Is she just going to therapy with your sd, or does she go to individual therapy as well? Does she genuinely seem to want to recover (I realize this is a hard question to answer)? How long ago was she diagnosed? In what way is it an encouraging sign that her mom will go out to dinner with her? I mean, is this something she refused to do in the past? And if so, what were the reasons she gave? 4) Aside from the fact that you've cut ties with your dad, does your sd have other good reasons for wanting to cut ties with her mom? How does her mom treat her? 5) How much does the therapist know about BPs? It's possible that she has a good reason for recommending that your sd continue to work on the relationship. Or, it's possible that she doesn't know very much about BPD and is recommending this based on ignorance. Many people -- therapists included -- believe that family ties can overcome the greatest obstacles; they don't understand how terribly abusive it can be to stay in a relationship with a BP. They foolishly say, " Oh, it can be worked out. You're just not trying hard enough. " With BPs, a lot of the time it doesn't matter how hard you try -- it just ain't never gonna work (obviously, each person's situation is unique, though, and some people ARE able to maintain some kind of relationship with their BP parent). As far as encouraging your sd to have a relationship with her mother: depending on your sd's age and the legal situation (like custody and things like that), you might want to consider supporting her in her decision-making process, and then supporting whatever decision she thinks is best for herself. This is what KOs need -- instead of being told what to do or how to feel (i.e., " I think you should work on the relationship " or " Your therapist thinks you should work on the relationship " ), we need to be supported in making our OWN decisions. As adults, many of us have difficulty doing this because our parents never taught us how, or trusted us to do it. So now we don't even trust ourselves to figure out what's best for ourselves. So, this may be a good opportunity to teach this valuable skill to your sd by showing her that you trust and support her ability to know what's best for herself. Of course, if you think there are good reasons for trying to work on the relationship (or not), then by all means, discuss these with her. They may be things she hasn't thought of and might want to consider while making her decision. But I think it's important to encourage her to do what SHE thinks is best. And also be there for her if she wants help figuring it out. For example, I like to talk things over with my husband, bounce ideas off of him and get his feedback. I still make the decision for myself in the end, but I like to involve him in the process sometimes. And, also, be there for her down the road if she ends up feeling like she's made a mistake. Don't judge her and say, " You should have listened to that therapist! " We all make mistakes, and as KOs we're learning by trial and error things we should have learned as children but never did. I'm saying all of this based on the assumption that your sd is at least in her late teens and that her mother does not have legal custody. I have also made a lot of assumptions about what is going on. I think it will be helpful if you answer my questions above -- it will paint a more complete picture, and then maybe we'll be able to give you some more feedback. We try to abstain from giving advice, because each person has to figure out what's best for them (what works for me may not work at all for you). We are always happy to share our thoughts, however. Take care, Anon --- M Sweeney wrote: > I am fairly new to this group. > > I had a situation today at my stepdaughter's therapy > appointment. Her therapist asked me to come and talk > with her. She then said that my sd has gotten the idea > that she can cut ties with her mom in part because I > have cut ties with my dad. Her mom has been diagnosed > with bi-polar and bpd. > > I have cut ties with my bpd dad since I was 19. I have > talked with all my kids about my dad's mental illness > and how hurtful he was and that I chose not to > continue a relationship with him when I was 19. There > was a lot of abuse. I don't go into the details but > there needed to be some explanation as to why they > never met him. > > The therapist thought I should encourage sd to work at > a relationship with her bpd mom. > > I guess I should have asked how she thought I could do > this. > > I have talked with sd about how encouraging it is that > her mom will go out to dinner with her and is going to > therapy with her. > > Well what do you think? >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 7, 2001 Report Share Posted November 7, 2001 Hi M, Anon is right on. That therapist put you on the defensive but there are questions you can ask the therapist about her qualifications to treat people with BPD, or the children of BPDs. See SWOE, p. 238-239. Lots of therapists are not qualified to work with people with BPD, and BPDs who aren't committed to doing the hard work necessary to get better have an affinity for therapists that they can manipulate. Also, ask the therapist if she's heard of Randi's book, Stop Walking On Eggshells, and Ann Lawson's book. Understanding The Borderline Mother. Tossing in my .05, Edith << Hi M, I had a few questions -- 1) How old is your stepdaugher? 2) How involved is her BPD mother in her life? Does she have partial custody, etc.? 3) You wrote << I have talked with sd about how encouraging it is that her mom will go out to dinner with her and is going to therapy with her. >> Is her mom seeking treatment specifically for the BPD? Is she just going to therapy with your sd, or does she go to individual therapy as well? Does she genuinely seem to want to recover (I realize this is a hard question to answer)? How long ago was she diagnosed? In what way is it an encouraging sign that her mom will go out to dinner with her? I mean, is this something she refused to do in the past? And if so, what were the reasons she gave? 4) Aside from the fact that you've cut ties with your dad, does your sd have other good reasons for wanting to cut ties with her mom? How does her mom treat her? 5) How much does the therapist know about BPs? It's possible that she has a good reason for recommending that your sd continue to work on the relationship. Or, it's possible that she doesn't know very much about BPD and is recommending this based on ignorance. Many people -- therapists included -- believe that family ties can overcome the greatest obstacles; they don't understand how terribly abusive it can be to stay in a relationship with a BP. They foolishly say, " Oh, it can be worked out. You're just not trying hard enough. " With BPs, a lot of the time it doesn't matter how hard you try -- it just ain't never gonna work (obviously, each person's situation is unique, though, and some people ARE able to maintain some kind of relationship with their BP parent). As far as encouraging your sd to have a relationship with her mother: depending on your sd's age and the legal situation (like custody and things like that), you might want to consider supporting her in her decision-making process, and then supporting whatever decision she thinks is best for herself. This is what KOs need -- instead of being told what to do or how to feel (i.e., " I think you should work on the relationship " or " Your therapist thinks you should work on the relationship " ), we need to be supported in making our OWN decisions. As adults, many of us have difficulty doing this because our parents never taught us how, or trusted us to do it. So now we don't even trust ourselves to figure out what's best for ourselves. So, this may be a good opportunity to teach this valuable skill to your sd by showing her that you trust and support her ability to know what's best for herself. Of course, if you think there are good reasons for trying to work on the relationship (or not), then by all means, discuss these with her. They may be things she hasn't thought of and might want to consider while making her decision. But I think it's important to encourage her to do what SHE thinks is best. And also be there for her if she wants help figuring it out. For example, I like to talk things over with my husband, bounce ideas off of him and get his feedback. I still make the decision for myself in the end, but I like to involve him in the process sometimes. And, also, be there for her down the road if she ends up feeling like she's made a mistake. Don't judge her and say, " You should have listened to that therapist! " We all make mistakes, and as KOs we're learning by trial and error things we should have learned as children but never did. I'm saying all of this based on the assumption that your sd is at least in her late teens and that her mother does not have legal custody. I have also made a lot of assumptions about what is going on. I think it will be helpful if you answer my questions above -- it will paint a more complete picture, and then maybe we'll be able to give you some more feedback. We try to abstain from giving advice, because each person has to figure out what's best for them (what works for me may not work at all for you). We are always happy to share our thoughts, however. Take care, Anon --- M Sweeney wrote: > I am fairly new to this group. > > I had a situation today at my stepdaughter's therapy > appointment. Her therapist asked me to come and talk > with her. She then said that my sd has gotten the idea > that she can cut ties with her mom in part because I > have cut ties with my dad. Her mom has been diagnosed > with bi-polar and bpd. > > I have cut ties with my bpd dad since I was 19. I have > talked with all my kids about my dad's mental illness > and how hurtful he was and that I chose not to > continue a relationship with him when I was 19. There > was a lot of abuse. I don't go into the details but > there needed to be some explanation as to why they > never met him. > > The therapist thought I should encourage sd to work at > a relationship with her bpd mom. > > I guess I should have asked how she thought I could do > this. > > I have talked with sd about how encouraging it is that > her mom will go out to dinner with her and is going to > therapy with her. > > Well what do you think? >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 7, 2001 Report Share Posted November 7, 2001 Hi M, Anon is right on. That therapist put you on the defensive but there are questions you can ask the therapist about her qualifications to treat people with BPD, or the children of BPDs. See SWOE, p. 238-239. Lots of therapists are not qualified to work with people with BPD, and BPDs who aren't committed to doing the hard work necessary to get better have an affinity for therapists that they can manipulate. Also, ask the therapist if she's heard of Randi's book, Stop Walking On Eggshells, and Ann Lawson's book. Understanding The Borderline Mother. Tossing in my .05, Edith << Hi M, I had a few questions -- 1) How old is your stepdaugher? 2) How involved is her BPD mother in her life? Does she have partial custody, etc.? 3) You wrote << I have talked with sd about how encouraging it is that her mom will go out to dinner with her and is going to therapy with her. >> Is her mom seeking treatment specifically for the BPD? Is she just going to therapy with your sd, or does she go to individual therapy as well? Does she genuinely seem to want to recover (I realize this is a hard question to answer)? How long ago was she diagnosed? In what way is it an encouraging sign that her mom will go out to dinner with her? I mean, is this something she refused to do in the past? And if so, what were the reasons she gave? 4) Aside from the fact that you've cut ties with your dad, does your sd have other good reasons for wanting to cut ties with her mom? How does her mom treat her? 5) How much does the therapist know about BPs? It's possible that she has a good reason for recommending that your sd continue to work on the relationship. Or, it's possible that she doesn't know very much about BPD and is recommending this based on ignorance. Many people -- therapists included -- believe that family ties can overcome the greatest obstacles; they don't understand how terribly abusive it can be to stay in a relationship with a BP. They foolishly say, " Oh, it can be worked out. You're just not trying hard enough. " With BPs, a lot of the time it doesn't matter how hard you try -- it just ain't never gonna work (obviously, each person's situation is unique, though, and some people ARE able to maintain some kind of relationship with their BP parent). As far as encouraging your sd to have a relationship with her mother: depending on your sd's age and the legal situation (like custody and things like that), you might want to consider supporting her in her decision-making process, and then supporting whatever decision she thinks is best for herself. This is what KOs need -- instead of being told what to do or how to feel (i.e., " I think you should work on the relationship " or " Your therapist thinks you should work on the relationship " ), we need to be supported in making our OWN decisions. As adults, many of us have difficulty doing this because our parents never taught us how, or trusted us to do it. So now we don't even trust ourselves to figure out what's best for ourselves. So, this may be a good opportunity to teach this valuable skill to your sd by showing her that you trust and support her ability to know what's best for herself. Of course, if you think there are good reasons for trying to work on the relationship (or not), then by all means, discuss these with her. They may be things she hasn't thought of and might want to consider while making her decision. But I think it's important to encourage her to do what SHE thinks is best. And also be there for her if she wants help figuring it out. For example, I like to talk things over with my husband, bounce ideas off of him and get his feedback. I still make the decision for myself in the end, but I like to involve him in the process sometimes. And, also, be there for her down the road if she ends up feeling like she's made a mistake. Don't judge her and say, " You should have listened to that therapist! " We all make mistakes, and as KOs we're learning by trial and error things we should have learned as children but never did. I'm saying all of this based on the assumption that your sd is at least in her late teens and that her mother does not have legal custody. I have also made a lot of assumptions about what is going on. I think it will be helpful if you answer my questions above -- it will paint a more complete picture, and then maybe we'll be able to give you some more feedback. We try to abstain from giving advice, because each person has to figure out what's best for them (what works for me may not work at all for you). We are always happy to share our thoughts, however. Take care, Anon --- M Sweeney wrote: > I am fairly new to this group. > > I had a situation today at my stepdaughter's therapy > appointment. Her therapist asked me to come and talk > with her. She then said that my sd has gotten the idea > that she can cut ties with her mom in part because I > have cut ties with my dad. Her mom has been diagnosed > with bi-polar and bpd. > > I have cut ties with my bpd dad since I was 19. I have > talked with all my kids about my dad's mental illness > and how hurtful he was and that I chose not to > continue a relationship with him when I was 19. There > was a lot of abuse. I don't go into the details but > there needed to be some explanation as to why they > never met him. > > The therapist thought I should encourage sd to work at > a relationship with her bpd mom. > > I guess I should have asked how she thought I could do > this. > > I have talked with sd about how encouraging it is that > her mom will go out to dinner with her and is going to > therapy with her. > > Well what do you think? >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 7, 2001 Report Share Posted November 7, 2001 <<<The therapist thought I should encourage sd to work at a relationship with her bpd mom. I guess I should have asked how she thought I could do this.>>>>>>>> Ilene here - Yes, I'd even call her and ask her - don't wait for the next appt! Does the therapist think you are trying to divide them? >>>I have talked with sd about how encouraging it is that her mom will go out to dinner with her and is going to therapy with her.>>>> I guess a lot depends on how old your sd is. Also how bad is the treatment she's gotten? Does she live with you? If it's an occasional visit like dinner, then maybe she should continue, but only she can decide with your help. I do know how badly a nada can damage your self esteem - whether they do it " on purpose " or not. If she's a teen, this is a very vulnerable age. Have you gotten a copy of SWOE yet? Maybe that would help! Ilene in TX Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 7, 2001 Report Share Posted November 7, 2001 <<<The therapist thought I should encourage sd to work at a relationship with her bpd mom. I guess I should have asked how she thought I could do this.>>>>>>>> Ilene here - Yes, I'd even call her and ask her - don't wait for the next appt! Does the therapist think you are trying to divide them? >>>I have talked with sd about how encouraging it is that her mom will go out to dinner with her and is going to therapy with her.>>>> I guess a lot depends on how old your sd is. Also how bad is the treatment she's gotten? Does she live with you? If it's an occasional visit like dinner, then maybe she should continue, but only she can decide with your help. I do know how badly a nada can damage your self esteem - whether they do it " on purpose " or not. If she's a teen, this is a very vulnerable age. Have you gotten a copy of SWOE yet? Maybe that would help! Ilene in TX Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 7, 2001 Report Share Posted November 7, 2001 <<<The therapist thought I should encourage sd to work at a relationship with her bpd mom. I guess I should have asked how she thought I could do this.>>>>>>>> Ilene here - Yes, I'd even call her and ask her - don't wait for the next appt! Does the therapist think you are trying to divide them? >>>I have talked with sd about how encouraging it is that her mom will go out to dinner with her and is going to therapy with her.>>>> I guess a lot depends on how old your sd is. Also how bad is the treatment she's gotten? Does she live with you? If it's an occasional visit like dinner, then maybe she should continue, but only she can decide with your help. I do know how badly a nada can damage your self esteem - whether they do it " on purpose " or not. If she's a teen, this is a very vulnerable age. Have you gotten a copy of SWOE yet? Maybe that would help! Ilene in TX Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 7, 2001 Report Share Posted November 7, 2001 --- ilene@... wrote: > > > <<<The therapist thought I should encourage sd to > work at > a relationship with her bpd mom. > > I guess I should have asked how she thought I could > do > this.>>>>>>>> > > Ilene here - Yes, I'd even call her and ask her - > don't wait for the next appt! > Does the therapist think you are trying to divide > them? > > >>>I have talked with sd about how encouraging it is > that > her mom will go out to dinner with her and is going > to > therapy with her.>>>> > > I guess a lot depends on how old your sd is. Also > how bad is the treatment > she's gotten? > Does she live with you? If it's an occasional visit > like dinner, then maybe she > should continue, but only she can decide with your > help. > I do know how badly a nada can damage your self > esteem - whether they do it " on > purpose " or not. If she's a teen, this is a very > vulnerable age. > Have you gotten a copy of SWOE yet? Maybe that > would help! > > Ilene in TX > > > > > Thanks Ilene. I'm getting a copy of SWOE. M. __________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 7, 2001 Report Share Posted November 7, 2001 Yikes! You were so right. After yesterday in court I sensed that mom was looking for an angle to back out of the dinners. BINGO. She canceled today. Called our home and left a message after we had already left for the day and left a message at sd school telling she wasn't coming and to take the bus to dad's. My sd tried to call her several times without success. Whew! M. __________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 7, 2001 Report Share Posted November 7, 2001 Yikes! You were so right. After yesterday in court I sensed that mom was looking for an angle to back out of the dinners. BINGO. She canceled today. Called our home and left a message after we had already left for the day and left a message at sd school telling she wasn't coming and to take the bus to dad's. My sd tried to call her several times without success. Whew! M. __________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 7, 2001 Report Share Posted November 7, 2001 Yikes! You were so right. After yesterday in court I sensed that mom was looking for an angle to back out of the dinners. BINGO. She canceled today. Called our home and left a message after we had already left for the day and left a message at sd school telling she wasn't coming and to take the bus to dad's. My sd tried to call her several times without success. Whew! M. __________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 7, 2001 Report Share Posted November 7, 2001 Someone that has BPD cannot be trusted - that's why all of us here hurt so much. We keep thinking that it will be better " next " time and it might be, but then the time after that we are the enemy again. Hence - walking on eggshells - no wonder a teen is confused. Your sd is lucky to have a sane dad and you! Unless the mom seeks treatment, this will continue the rest of her life - the games and stuff. This is so sad. What's your husband's stance? She must have been a lousy wife.....Does he help his daughter with this? I really feel for you guys - this is the type of thing that tears families apart and the kids get hurt the most. After you read SWOE, you'll be much better informed. You might also want to read " Understanding the Borderline Mother " by C. Lawson. Ilene Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 7, 2001 Report Share Posted November 7, 2001 Someone that has BPD cannot be trusted - that's why all of us here hurt so much. We keep thinking that it will be better " next " time and it might be, but then the time after that we are the enemy again. Hence - walking on eggshells - no wonder a teen is confused. Your sd is lucky to have a sane dad and you! Unless the mom seeks treatment, this will continue the rest of her life - the games and stuff. This is so sad. What's your husband's stance? She must have been a lousy wife.....Does he help his daughter with this? I really feel for you guys - this is the type of thing that tears families apart and the kids get hurt the most. After you read SWOE, you'll be much better informed. You might also want to read " Understanding the Borderline Mother " by C. Lawson. Ilene Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 7, 2001 Report Share Posted November 7, 2001 My husband just got off the phone with the guardian ad litem. It is refreshing to be validated. And yet what I wouldn't give for this not to be real. The GAL was very aware that if he is feeling exhausted and confused having dealt with BPBM for a few hours then how must the kids feel. Things have gotten progressively better since I met my husband ten years ago and mom had custody. I think it will continue to get better in regards to their personal safety although I know how difficult it is to have a parent with BPD. It is no coincidence that I have not spoken with my father for 12 years. My husband is very connected to the kids and responsive to their experiences. He has experienced a lot of guilt for giving them this " mother " but he recognizes he needs to deal with his guilt on his own and not put that on the kids too. So much happens with this woman it is just too much to take in sometimes. Can I get the book " Understanding the BP Mother " at a bookstore? M. __________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 7, 2001 Report Share Posted November 7, 2001 My husband just got off the phone with the guardian ad litem. It is refreshing to be validated. And yet what I wouldn't give for this not to be real. The GAL was very aware that if he is feeling exhausted and confused having dealt with BPBM for a few hours then how must the kids feel. Things have gotten progressively better since I met my husband ten years ago and mom had custody. I think it will continue to get better in regards to their personal safety although I know how difficult it is to have a parent with BPD. It is no coincidence that I have not spoken with my father for 12 years. My husband is very connected to the kids and responsive to their experiences. He has experienced a lot of guilt for giving them this " mother " but he recognizes he needs to deal with his guilt on his own and not put that on the kids too. So much happens with this woman it is just too much to take in sometimes. Can I get the book " Understanding the BP Mother " at a bookstore? M. __________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 8, 2001 Report Share Posted November 8, 2001 I have to agree with Cyndie...having a borderline mom is hard enough without expectations being put on a 13 year old that a relationship is " encouraged " (which gives the underlying implication that a relationship with mom is good...where does that leave the 13 year old is she is unable to maintain a relationship with her mom and could she understand that this is no fault of hers but rather the manifestation of a mental illness)...I just think of how many adults on this list have struggled to deal with the legacy of failed relationships with BPD's ...I'm grateful to know that this young woman has a loving step-mom...that relationship may well turn out to be the most important female role model she will have Re: What to do? > > --- M Sweeney wrote: > > The therapist thought I should encourage sd to work > > at > > a relationship with her bpd mom. > > Hi - I thought Anon raised good questions. How > aware is the therapist about BPD? BPD mothers do great > damage to their kids. I see red flags about this > myself. Maybe I'm a bit cynical and skeptical, but I > think the therapist is setting up unreasistic > expectations which could lead to more confusion and > hurt for your sd. > > > > > I guess I should have asked how she thought I could > > do > > this. > > Yeah, like what IS the therapist thinking? I read your > other post - it doesn't appear that the mother has > made much progress - it appears the mother could care > less about seeing her daughter. Ouch, that's got to > hurt your sd? Once again, I think it's a bad idea to > encourage a relationship. How aware and understanding > is your sd about her mothers illness? Is she able, at > the tender and confusing age of 13 to separate her > mothers rejection/mental illness from herself? Or does > she take it personally? > > > > I have talked with sd about how encouraging it is > > that > > her mom will go out to dinner with her and is going > > to > > therapy with her. > > I would be leary of setting up unrealistic > expectations. From what you posted, her mother doesn't > appear that willing to do those dinners. Rather than > *telling* your sd that it's encouraging, I think I > might ask her what she feels and thinks about it. What > I'm trying to say here is that, people would tell me > how I *should* feel or think - it didn't change what I > felt or thought inside - it only confused me, left me > feeling invalidated - minimized the situation - and > set up unrealistic expectations. > > Hope this helps - and sorry if I'm a bit cynical and > skeptical. Just thinking about the child. Been there > and done that. > > Good Luck, > > Cyndie > > __________________________________________________ > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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