Re: Relationship Question

[Guest guest]

Are there any adult children of BPDs who have examined their own behavior

in relationships?

I was not an only child (BPD mother) but I will say I've been happily

married for 18 years - 2 kids 11 and 8- and I'm still " on guard " with my

wonderful husband. When first married I was prone to " devaluing " him some

(went through moodiness often) but he had too much self respect to let me

get away with it! I've become less insecure over the years about his love

for me but I'd have to say I still fear (sometimes-not often!) that he

could turn on me....(NO rational reasons!) I'm very sensitive to not only

his words but the manner & body language in which they are delivered. (I

put myself through emotional pain whenever he's the slightest bit angry).

ANGER IS EXCEEDINGLY DIFFICULT FOR ME TO HANDLE. My entire being goes

through a fear/flight response.

Hope this is helpful. I'm 41 and very stable in most other areas of my

life (business over 15 years, great kids) I learned I could never count on

or trust my mother- it leaves its impact on other love relationships

(thanks for asking this question! As my children get older I'll have to

monitor my reactions to perceived " abandonement " )

[Guest guest]

Are there any adult children of BPDs who have examined their own behavior

in relationships?

I was not an only child (BPD mother) but I will say I've been happily

married for 18 years - 2 kids 11 and 8- and I'm still " on guard " with my

wonderful husband. When first married I was prone to " devaluing " him some

(went through moodiness often) but he had too much self respect to let me

get away with it! I've become less insecure over the years about his love

for me but I'd have to say I still fear (sometimes-not often!) that he

could turn on me....(NO rational reasons!) I'm very sensitive to not only

his words but the manner & body language in which they are delivered. (I

put myself through emotional pain whenever he's the slightest bit angry).

ANGER IS EXCEEDINGLY DIFFICULT FOR ME TO HANDLE. My entire being goes

through a fear/flight response.

Hope this is helpful. I'm 41 and very stable in most other areas of my

life (business over 15 years, great kids) I learned I could never count on

or trust my mother- it leaves its impact on other love relationships

(thanks for asking this question! As my children get older I'll have to

monitor my reactions to perceived " abandonement " )

[Guest guest]

Are there any adult children of BPDs who have examined their own behavior

in relationships?

I was not an only child (BPD mother) but I will say I've been happily

married for 18 years - 2 kids 11 and 8- and I'm still " on guard " with my

wonderful husband. When first married I was prone to " devaluing " him some

(went through moodiness often) but he had too much self respect to let me

get away with it! I've become less insecure over the years about his love

for me but I'd have to say I still fear (sometimes-not often!) that he

could turn on me....(NO rational reasons!) I'm very sensitive to not only

his words but the manner & body language in which they are delivered. (I

put myself through emotional pain whenever he's the slightest bit angry).

ANGER IS EXCEEDINGLY DIFFICULT FOR ME TO HANDLE. My entire being goes

through a fear/flight response.

Hope this is helpful. I'm 41 and very stable in most other areas of my

life (business over 15 years, great kids) I learned I could never count on

or trust my mother- it leaves its impact on other love relationships

(thanks for asking this question! As my children get older I'll have to

monitor my reactions to perceived " abandonement " )

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 9/14/01 1:43:30 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

steffimojo@... writes:

> when someone is angry at me, my brain

> doesn't work right - I get confused, unsure of myself,

> wonder if my response is inappropriate etc. I have a

> difficult time in the heat of the moment just putting

> my feelings into words.

Ditto. My BP (x) best friend flipped out when I mentioned something she did

that was a really hurtful to me. I'm used to my mom, who is BP, so I had put

up with so much abnormal behavior - well, just because I could " deal with

it " . Well, this particular day, when my BP friend started to scream at me ,

calling me manipulaive, controlling, possessive and other names that don't

fit my personality too well, I just verbally and mentally went blank. Later

of course, I knew exactly what I wanted to say, but she wouldn't answer her

phone or call back, so I never got to say any of it. I too feel frozen and

unable to say what I need to because my brain goes into panic and I go blank.

I wish that didn't happen to me, or that I could control it better - it

would have made things easier to deal with if I could have said what I needed

to and not be scared speechless.

Lynda

[Guest guest]

Hi Reynoldssh,

Good questions, but the answers can be lengthy. And, incidently, all

BPDs are different. And not all BPDs rage. Also, some BPDs dissociate,

etc etc. Probably one outstanding characteristic in those with BPD is

their INTENSITY.

Everyone has some BPD traits. A person might have four BPD traits, but

it takes any 5 or more of the 9 traits to be diagnosed with BPD. A

person with BPD will not admit that there is anything wrong with them.

BPDs have to think of themselves as perfect due to their 'splitting'

their self into " all good " vs " all bad " . If a BPD splits their self into

" all bad " , then they may self-injure. The NonBP adult children, however,

generally feel that there is something wrong with them and they want to

find answers.

The NonBP KOs (adult kids) of BPDs can have BPD traits that they've

*learned* (acquired) from their BPD parent. This is especially true of

the daughters of BPD mothers. The mother is the daughter's most

important role model. And, of course, the creed of the psychologist is

that that which is learned can be unlearned.

The core issue with BPDs is abandonment/entanglement and their defensive

mechanisms include projection, denial, rationalization, and splitting

(black/white thinking). These are all defined in SWOE.

On these Oasis lists, for the NonBP adult children of BPDs, we Oasans

refer to these learned BPD traits as our " fleas " . I was covered with

them when I first learned about BPD in January of '96, and its been a

slow process for me to become aware of each of them and eliminate them

from my behavioral repertoire. In case you're wondering, I received my

degrees in clinical psychology in the days before BPD was in the DSM as

an Axis II (personality) disorder and I spent the next 37 years teaching

statistics, research methods, and psychobiology at the college level.

Our Oasis lists are life savers for the NonBP adult children of BPDs

because of the validation and support they provide. Because we KOs were

raised in a dysfunctional FOO (family of origin), we lack information

about what " normal " is and we are codependent. I was a member on the

original Oasis list back in '96 and, looking back from my present

vantage point, I must admit that it took a lot of hard, painful work on

my part in my recovery, which occurred over a 5 year period and without

a therapist. Today I would recommend that KOs find a therapist who has a

successful track record working with the family members of BPDs. They

are, however, hard to find.

I actually had no idea where the path was leading five years ago, or

even that I was on the recovery path. I was driven at the time by

curiosity. There was no one ahead of me to point the way. But now I'm

standing in the light at the end of the tunnel and have peace in my life

-- along with an increasing number of other KOs on our advanced lists.

To learn more about what it is like to be the adult child of a BPD

parent, I would suggest that you go into the archives here and read the

posts of the adult children of BPDs. Go to the listserv at:

http://wwww.yahoogroups.com/group/ModOasis

Sign in with your Yahoo ID and password and then press " Messages " on the

left.

If your SO (significant other) is a NonBP, perhaps she would like to

join ModOasis?

The bottom line: Everyone is responsible for their own behavior. We

cannot change anyone else's behavior, we can only change our own.

Cheers,

Edith

-Facilitator/Moderator - Oasis lists for the NonBP adult children and

NonBP siblings of BPDs.

________________________

= Original message =

Background:

I've been in a one year, committed relationship with the daughter

(only child) of a BPD mother. The BPD mother and father divorced when

she was 3 and the BPD mother essentially raised her alone.

Situation:

For the first nine months of the relationship, everything was great!

However, in the last three months, the nonBPD daughter has begun

exhibiting very peculiar behavior. She exhibits seemingly irrational

behavior, and from one moment to the next wants to marry me, then

leave me. I've recently noticed that she too suffers from separation

anxiety. She does not have any of the rages that BPDs seem to have

so I don't believe that she is BPD too. I consider myself pretty

stable and am not at all moody. In recent months, I have discovered

that she compartmentalizes and has excluded me from important parts

of her life. It appears that her ability to communicate her feelings

concerning difficult issues is impaired. I'm struggling trying to

find some reason or logic to her behavior. When I ask, and truly try

to listen or understand, she is unable to explain her feelings or her

actions and quickly ends with " I don't know " .

Questions:

My theory is that as an only child of a BPD mother, she has developed

some unhealthy relationship skills. I know that children/spouses of

alcoholics develop a co-dependency. Is the same true with children of

BPDs? What behaviors should be expected? What are the

relationship/behavioral characteristics of BPD children? I'd like to

know what to expect and how to be supportive. Thanks!

>>

[Guest guest]

Hi Reynoldssh,

Good questions, but the answers can be lengthy. And, incidently, all

BPDs are different. And not all BPDs rage. Also, some BPDs dissociate,

etc etc. Probably one outstanding characteristic in those with BPD is

their INTENSITY.

Everyone has some BPD traits. A person might have four BPD traits, but

it takes any 5 or more of the 9 traits to be diagnosed with BPD. A

person with BPD will not admit that there is anything wrong with them.

BPDs have to think of themselves as perfect due to their 'splitting'

their self into " all good " vs " all bad " . If a BPD splits their self into

" all bad " , then they may self-injure. The NonBP adult children, however,

generally feel that there is something wrong with them and they want to

find answers.

The NonBP KOs (adult kids) of BPDs can have BPD traits that they've

*learned* (acquired) from their BPD parent. This is especially true of

the daughters of BPD mothers. The mother is the daughter's most

important role model. And, of course, the creed of the psychologist is

that that which is learned can be unlearned.

The core issue with BPDs is abandonment/entanglement and their defensive

mechanisms include projection, denial, rationalization, and splitting

(black/white thinking). These are all defined in SWOE.

On these Oasis lists, for the NonBP adult children of BPDs, we Oasans

refer to these learned BPD traits as our " fleas " . I was covered with

them when I first learned about BPD in January of '96, and its been a

slow process for me to become aware of each of them and eliminate them

from my behavioral repertoire. In case you're wondering, I received my

degrees in clinical psychology in the days before BPD was in the DSM as

an Axis II (personality) disorder and I spent the next 37 years teaching

statistics, research methods, and psychobiology at the college level.

Our Oasis lists are life savers for the NonBP adult children of BPDs

because of the validation and support they provide. Because we KOs were

raised in a dysfunctional FOO (family of origin), we lack information

about what " normal " is and we are codependent. I was a member on the

original Oasis list back in '96 and, looking back from my present

vantage point, I must admit that it took a lot of hard, painful work on

my part in my recovery, which occurred over a 5 year period and without

a therapist. Today I would recommend that KOs find a therapist who has a

successful track record working with the family members of BPDs. They

are, however, hard to find.

I actually had no idea where the path was leading five years ago, or

even that I was on the recovery path. I was driven at the time by

curiosity. There was no one ahead of me to point the way. But now I'm

standing in the light at the end of the tunnel and have peace in my life

-- along with an increasing number of other KOs on our advanced lists.

To learn more about what it is like to be the adult child of a BPD

parent, I would suggest that you go into the archives here and read the

posts of the adult children of BPDs. Go to the listserv at:

http://wwww.yahoogroups.com/group/ModOasis

Sign in with your Yahoo ID and password and then press " Messages " on the

left.

If your SO (significant other) is a NonBP, perhaps she would like to

join ModOasis?

The bottom line: Everyone is responsible for their own behavior. We

cannot change anyone else's behavior, we can only change our own.

Cheers,

Edith

-Facilitator/Moderator - Oasis lists for the NonBP adult children and

NonBP siblings of BPDs.

________________________

= Original message =

Background:

I've been in a one year, committed relationship with the daughter

(only child) of a BPD mother. The BPD mother and father divorced when

she was 3 and the BPD mother essentially raised her alone.

Situation:

For the first nine months of the relationship, everything was great!

However, in the last three months, the nonBPD daughter has begun

exhibiting very peculiar behavior. She exhibits seemingly irrational

behavior, and from one moment to the next wants to marry me, then

leave me. I've recently noticed that she too suffers from separation

anxiety. She does not have any of the rages that BPDs seem to have

so I don't believe that she is BPD too. I consider myself pretty

stable and am not at all moody. In recent months, I have discovered

that she compartmentalizes and has excluded me from important parts

of her life. It appears that her ability to communicate her feelings

concerning difficult issues is impaired. I'm struggling trying to

find some reason or logic to her behavior. When I ask, and truly try

to listen or understand, she is unable to explain her feelings or her

actions and quickly ends with " I don't know " .

Questions:

My theory is that as an only child of a BPD mother, she has developed

some unhealthy relationship skills. I know that children/spouses of

alcoholics develop a co-dependency. Is the same true with children of

BPDs? What behaviors should be expected? What are the

relationship/behavioral characteristics of BPD children? I'd like to

know what to expect and how to be supportive. Thanks!

>>

[Guest guest]

Hi Reynoldssh,

Good questions, but the answers can be lengthy. And, incidently, all

BPDs are different. And not all BPDs rage. Also, some BPDs dissociate,

etc etc. Probably one outstanding characteristic in those with BPD is

their INTENSITY.

Everyone has some BPD traits. A person might have four BPD traits, but

it takes any 5 or more of the 9 traits to be diagnosed with BPD. A

person with BPD will not admit that there is anything wrong with them.

BPDs have to think of themselves as perfect due to their 'splitting'

their self into " all good " vs " all bad " . If a BPD splits their self into

" all bad " , then they may self-injure. The NonBP adult children, however,

generally feel that there is something wrong with them and they want to

find answers.

The NonBP KOs (adult kids) of BPDs can have BPD traits that they've

*learned* (acquired) from their BPD parent. This is especially true of

the daughters of BPD mothers. The mother is the daughter's most

important role model. And, of course, the creed of the psychologist is

that that which is learned can be unlearned.

The core issue with BPDs is abandonment/entanglement and their defensive

mechanisms include projection, denial, rationalization, and splitting

(black/white thinking). These are all defined in SWOE.

On these Oasis lists, for the NonBP adult children of BPDs, we Oasans

refer to these learned BPD traits as our " fleas " . I was covered with

them when I first learned about BPD in January of '96, and its been a

slow process for me to become aware of each of them and eliminate them

from my behavioral repertoire. In case you're wondering, I received my

degrees in clinical psychology in the days before BPD was in the DSM as

an Axis II (personality) disorder and I spent the next 37 years teaching

statistics, research methods, and psychobiology at the college level.

Our Oasis lists are life savers for the NonBP adult children of BPDs

because of the validation and support they provide. Because we KOs were

raised in a dysfunctional FOO (family of origin), we lack information

about what " normal " is and we are codependent. I was a member on the

original Oasis list back in '96 and, looking back from my present

vantage point, I must admit that it took a lot of hard, painful work on

my part in my recovery, which occurred over a 5 year period and without

a therapist. Today I would recommend that KOs find a therapist who has a

successful track record working with the family members of BPDs. They

are, however, hard to find.

I actually had no idea where the path was leading five years ago, or

even that I was on the recovery path. I was driven at the time by

curiosity. There was no one ahead of me to point the way. But now I'm

standing in the light at the end of the tunnel and have peace in my life

-- along with an increasing number of other KOs on our advanced lists.

To learn more about what it is like to be the adult child of a BPD

parent, I would suggest that you go into the archives here and read the

posts of the adult children of BPDs. Go to the listserv at:

http://wwww.yahoogroups.com/group/ModOasis

Sign in with your Yahoo ID and password and then press " Messages " on the

left.

If your SO (significant other) is a NonBP, perhaps she would like to

join ModOasis?

The bottom line: Everyone is responsible for their own behavior. We

cannot change anyone else's behavior, we can only change our own.

Cheers,

Edith

-Facilitator/Moderator - Oasis lists for the NonBP adult children and

NonBP siblings of BPDs.

________________________

= Original message =

Background:

I've been in a one year, committed relationship with the daughter

(only child) of a BPD mother. The BPD mother and father divorced when

she was 3 and the BPD mother essentially raised her alone.

Situation:

For the first nine months of the relationship, everything was great!

However, in the last three months, the nonBPD daughter has begun

exhibiting very peculiar behavior. She exhibits seemingly irrational

behavior, and from one moment to the next wants to marry me, then

leave me. I've recently noticed that she too suffers from separation

anxiety. She does not have any of the rages that BPDs seem to have

so I don't believe that she is BPD too. I consider myself pretty

stable and am not at all moody. In recent months, I have discovered

that she compartmentalizes and has excluded me from important parts

of her life. It appears that her ability to communicate her feelings

concerning difficult issues is impaired. I'm struggling trying to

find some reason or logic to her behavior. When I ask, and truly try

to listen or understand, she is unable to explain her feelings or her

actions and quickly ends with " I don't know " .

Questions:

My theory is that as an only child of a BPD mother, she has developed

some unhealthy relationship skills. I know that children/spouses of

alcoholics develop a co-dependency. Is the same true with children of

BPDs? What behaviors should be expected? What are the

relationship/behavioral characteristics of BPD children? I'd like to

know what to expect and how to be supportive. Thanks!

>>

[Guest guest]

Edith here.

<<

Are there any adult children of BPDs who have examined their own

behavior in relationships?

>>

Lots of us KOs are invisible, have low self-esteem, and we've learned

from our BP parent that we don't have needs.

Ellen wrote:

<<

.... I'm still " on guard " with my wonderful husband.

>>

This is called hypervigilance.

<<

When first married I was prone to " devaluing " him some

>>

This is called splitting.

<<

(went through moodiness often)

>>

Our role model (mother) had mood instability.

<<

.... I still fear (sometimes-not often!) that he could turn on me....(NO

rational reasons!)

>>

We lack trust. The first thing that a child learns in their first year

of life is to trust and, of course, the mother's responsibility is to

foster that trust. Our BPD mothers lacked empathy and couldn't teach us

to trust.

<<

I'm very sensitive to not only his words but the manner & body language

in which they are delivered.

>>

Lacking empathy, BPD mothers are excellent at reading body language. In

fact, that's one of the things that makes them so good in Hollywood as

actresses. And, in turn, we KOs are really good at reading body

language.

<<

(I put myself through emotional pain whenever he's the slightest bit

angry). ANGER IS EXCEEDINGLY DIFFICULT FOR ME TO HANDLE.

>>

Yes. We KOs have not been allowed to express anger so, as children, we

learned to stuff our anger and over the years it eats at our guts. Lots

of older KOs end up with autoimmune disorders (like lupus, etc etc).

<<

My entire being goes through a fear/flight response.

>>

Yes, this is PTSD (Post Traumatic Stress Disorder). I had PTSD my whole

life until 2 years ago when it quietly disappeared and never returned.

<<

Hope this is helpful. I'm 41 and very stable in most other areas of my

life (business over 15 years, great kids)

>>

We KOs are very dependable. Our BPD mothers demanded excellence and we

KO give 101% on the job.

<<

I learned I could never count on or trust my mother- it leaves its

impact on other love relationships (thanks for asking this question! As

my children get older I'll have to monitor my reactions to perceived

" abandonement " )

>>

Or, you can work on those fleas and get rid of them, which I highly

recommend.

Hugs,

Edith

- Life is gooooooooooood, now.

[Guest guest]

Edith here.

<<

Are there any adult children of BPDs who have examined their own

behavior in relationships?

>>

Lots of us KOs are invisible, have low self-esteem, and we've learned

from our BP parent that we don't have needs.

Ellen wrote:

<<

.... I'm still " on guard " with my wonderful husband.

>>

This is called hypervigilance.

<<

When first married I was prone to " devaluing " him some

>>

This is called splitting.

<<

(went through moodiness often)

>>

Our role model (mother) had mood instability.

<<

.... I still fear (sometimes-not often!) that he could turn on me....(NO

rational reasons!)

>>

We lack trust. The first thing that a child learns in their first year

of life is to trust and, of course, the mother's responsibility is to

foster that trust. Our BPD mothers lacked empathy and couldn't teach us

to trust.

<<

I'm very sensitive to not only his words but the manner & body language

in which they are delivered.

>>

Lacking empathy, BPD mothers are excellent at reading body language. In

fact, that's one of the things that makes them so good in Hollywood as

actresses. And, in turn, we KOs are really good at reading body

language.

<<

(I put myself through emotional pain whenever he's the slightest bit

angry). ANGER IS EXCEEDINGLY DIFFICULT FOR ME TO HANDLE.

>>

Yes. We KOs have not been allowed to express anger so, as children, we

learned to stuff our anger and over the years it eats at our guts. Lots

of older KOs end up with autoimmune disorders (like lupus, etc etc).

<<

My entire being goes through a fear/flight response.

>>

Yes, this is PTSD (Post Traumatic Stress Disorder). I had PTSD my whole

life until 2 years ago when it quietly disappeared and never returned.

<<

Hope this is helpful. I'm 41 and very stable in most other areas of my

life (business over 15 years, great kids)

>>

We KOs are very dependable. Our BPD mothers demanded excellence and we

KO give 101% on the job.

<<

I learned I could never count on or trust my mother- it leaves its

impact on other love relationships (thanks for asking this question! As

my children get older I'll have to monitor my reactions to perceived

" abandonement " )

>>

Or, you can work on those fleas and get rid of them, which I highly

recommend.

Hugs,

Edith

- Life is gooooooooooood, now.

[Guest guest]

Edith here.

<<

Are there any adult children of BPDs who have examined their own

behavior in relationships?

>>

Lots of us KOs are invisible, have low self-esteem, and we've learned

from our BP parent that we don't have needs.

Ellen wrote:

<<

.... I'm still " on guard " with my wonderful husband.

>>

This is called hypervigilance.

<<

When first married I was prone to " devaluing " him some

>>

This is called splitting.

<<

(went through moodiness often)

>>

Our role model (mother) had mood instability.

<<

.... I still fear (sometimes-not often!) that he could turn on me....(NO

rational reasons!)

>>

We lack trust. The first thing that a child learns in their first year

of life is to trust and, of course, the mother's responsibility is to

foster that trust. Our BPD mothers lacked empathy and couldn't teach us

to trust.

<<

I'm very sensitive to not only his words but the manner & body language

in which they are delivered.

>>

Lacking empathy, BPD mothers are excellent at reading body language. In

fact, that's one of the things that makes them so good in Hollywood as

actresses. And, in turn, we KOs are really good at reading body

language.

<<

(I put myself through emotional pain whenever he's the slightest bit

angry). ANGER IS EXCEEDINGLY DIFFICULT FOR ME TO HANDLE.

>>

Yes. We KOs have not been allowed to express anger so, as children, we

learned to stuff our anger and over the years it eats at our guts. Lots

of older KOs end up with autoimmune disorders (like lupus, etc etc).

<<

My entire being goes through a fear/flight response.

>>

Yes, this is PTSD (Post Traumatic Stress Disorder). I had PTSD my whole

life until 2 years ago when it quietly disappeared and never returned.

<<

Hope this is helpful. I'm 41 and very stable in most other areas of my

life (business over 15 years, great kids)

>>

We KOs are very dependable. Our BPD mothers demanded excellence and we

KO give 101% on the job.

<<

I learned I could never count on or trust my mother- it leaves its

impact on other love relationships (thanks for asking this question! As

my children get older I'll have to monitor my reactions to perceived

" abandonement " )

>>

Or, you can work on those fleas and get rid of them, which I highly

recommend.

Hugs,

Edith

- Life is gooooooooooood, now.

[Guest guest]

Ellen,

That is a very good point you made regarding handling

someone's anger at you - especially your significant

other. I have a terrible time with this and it causes

no end to misundertanding me. I am scared of other's

anger, that they will leave me because they are angry

with me. Even though I am not like that myself. And

like you said, it is a bit irrational. I used to

twist myself up into knots over someone's anger at me.

I would give in, agree with anything to get it to

stop. Thank goodness I don't do that because that is

a step to being emotionally blackmailed and

co-dependent. It was so hard to deal with. Over time

I have learned to just calm down, be quiet and listen

(although eventually if the anger doesn't stop, I do

just leave for a while because I just can't handle

it).

It was helpful for me that you pointed this out,

because it can still paralyze me if I am not careful.

Plus for me, when someone is angry at me, my brain

doesn't work right - I get confused, unsure of myself,

wonder if my response is inappropriate etc. I have a

difficult time in the heat of the moment just putting

my feelings into words.

Thanks for the insight!

--- " Ellen C. Greene " wrote:

> Are there any adult children of BPDs who have

> examined their own behavior

> in relationships?

>

> I was not an only child (BPD mother) but I will say

> I've been happily

> married for 18 years - 2 kids 11 and 8- and I'm

> still " on guard " with my

> wonderful husband. When first married I was prone

> to " devaluing " him some

> (went through moodiness often) but he had too much

> self respect to let me

> get away with it! I've become less insecure over

> the years about his love

> for me but I'd have to say I still fear

> (sometimes-not often!) that he

> could turn on me....(NO rational reasons!) I'm very

> sensitive to not only

> his words but the manner & body language in which

> they are delivered. (I

> put myself through emotional pain whenever he's the

> slightest bit angry).

> ANGER IS EXCEEDINGLY DIFFICULT FOR ME TO HANDLE. My

> entire being goes

> through a fear/flight response.

>

> Hope this is helpful. I'm 41 and very stable in

> most other areas of my

> life (business over 15 years, great kids) I learned

> I could never count on

> or trust my mother- it leaves its impact on other

> love relationships

> (thanks for asking this question! As my children

> get older I'll have to

> monitor my reactions to perceived " abandonement " )

>

>

__________________________________________________

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[Guest guest]

Ellen,

That is a very good point you made regarding handling

someone's anger at you - especially your significant

other. I have a terrible time with this and it causes

no end to misundertanding me. I am scared of other's

anger, that they will leave me because they are angry

with me. Even though I am not like that myself. And

like you said, it is a bit irrational. I used to

twist myself up into knots over someone's anger at me.

I would give in, agree with anything to get it to

stop. Thank goodness I don't do that because that is

a step to being emotionally blackmailed and

co-dependent. It was so hard to deal with. Over time

I have learned to just calm down, be quiet and listen

(although eventually if the anger doesn't stop, I do

just leave for a while because I just can't handle

it).

It was helpful for me that you pointed this out,

because it can still paralyze me if I am not careful.

Plus for me, when someone is angry at me, my brain

doesn't work right - I get confused, unsure of myself,

wonder if my response is inappropriate etc. I have a

difficult time in the heat of the moment just putting

my feelings into words.

Thanks for the insight!

--- " Ellen C. Greene " wrote:

> Are there any adult children of BPDs who have

> examined their own behavior

> in relationships?

>

> I was not an only child (BPD mother) but I will say

> I've been happily

> married for 18 years - 2 kids 11 and 8- and I'm

> still " on guard " with my

> wonderful husband. When first married I was prone

> to " devaluing " him some

> (went through moodiness often) but he had too much

> self respect to let me

> get away with it! I've become less insecure over

> the years about his love

> for me but I'd have to say I still fear

> (sometimes-not often!) that he

> could turn on me....(NO rational reasons!) I'm very

> sensitive to not only

> his words but the manner & body language in which

> they are delivered. (I

> put myself through emotional pain whenever he's the

> slightest bit angry).

> ANGER IS EXCEEDINGLY DIFFICULT FOR ME TO HANDLE. My

> entire being goes

> through a fear/flight response.

>

> Hope this is helpful. I'm 41 and very stable in

> most other areas of my

> life (business over 15 years, great kids) I learned

> I could never count on

> or trust my mother- it leaves its impact on other

> love relationships

> (thanks for asking this question! As my children

> get older I'll have to

> monitor my reactions to perceived " abandonement " )

>

>

__________________________________________________

Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help?

Donate cash, emergency relief information

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[Guest guest]

Ellen,

That is a very good point you made regarding handling

someone's anger at you - especially your significant

other. I have a terrible time with this and it causes

no end to misundertanding me. I am scared of other's

anger, that they will leave me because they are angry

with me. Even though I am not like that myself. And

like you said, it is a bit irrational. I used to

twist myself up into knots over someone's anger at me.

I would give in, agree with anything to get it to

stop. Thank goodness I don't do that because that is

a step to being emotionally blackmailed and

co-dependent. It was so hard to deal with. Over time

I have learned to just calm down, be quiet and listen

(although eventually if the anger doesn't stop, I do

just leave for a while because I just can't handle

it).

It was helpful for me that you pointed this out,

because it can still paralyze me if I am not careful.

Plus for me, when someone is angry at me, my brain

doesn't work right - I get confused, unsure of myself,

wonder if my response is inappropriate etc. I have a

difficult time in the heat of the moment just putting

my feelings into words.

Thanks for the insight!

--- " Ellen C. Greene " wrote:

> Are there any adult children of BPDs who have

> examined their own behavior

> in relationships?

>

> I was not an only child (BPD mother) but I will say

> I've been happily

> married for 18 years - 2 kids 11 and 8- and I'm

> still " on guard " with my

> wonderful husband. When first married I was prone

> to " devaluing " him some

> (went through moodiness often) but he had too much

> self respect to let me

> get away with it! I've become less insecure over

> the years about his love

> for me but I'd have to say I still fear

> (sometimes-not often!) that he

> could turn on me....(NO rational reasons!) I'm very

> sensitive to not only

> his words but the manner & body language in which

> they are delivered. (I

> put myself through emotional pain whenever he's the

> slightest bit angry).

> ANGER IS EXCEEDINGLY DIFFICULT FOR ME TO HANDLE. My

> entire being goes

> through a fear/flight response.

>

> Hope this is helpful. I'm 41 and very stable in

> most other areas of my

> life (business over 15 years, great kids) I learned

> I could never count on

> or trust my mother- it leaves its impact on other

> love relationships

> (thanks for asking this question! As my children

> get older I'll have to

> monitor my reactions to perceived " abandonement " )

>

>

__________________________________________________

Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help?

Donate cash, emergency relief information

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[Guest guest]

from Edith:

>Or, you can work on those fleas and get rid of them, which I highly

>recommend.

>

YES- I must continue to work off those fleas! Thank you for your

validations, terminologies & kindness- Ellen

[Guest guest]

from Edith:

>Or, you can work on those fleas and get rid of them, which I highly

>recommend.

>

YES- I must continue to work off those fleas! Thank you for your

validations, terminologies & kindness- Ellen

[Guest guest]

Hi Lynda,

This is where journaling and writing are important. I'd recommend that

you write a letter to your friend and tell her in the letter exactly

what you wanted to say. By getting it down on paper, this will get it

out of your head and help provide closure. You don't need to send her

the letter, but it is important that you do write it.

When I first started journaling, and later read what I had written, was

when I understood for the first time that I'd been abused. That was a

HUGE step for me toward healing.

Hugs,

Edith

-PsyProf@...

.... when my BP friend started to scream at me , calling me manipulaive,

controlling, possessive and other names that don't fit my personality

too well, I just verbally and mentally went blank. Later of course, I

knew exactly what I wanted to say, but she wouldn't answer her phone or

call back, so I never got to say any of it. I too feel frozen and

unable to say what I need to because my brain goes into panic and I go

blank.

I wish that didn't happen to me, or that I could control it better - it

would have made things easier to deal with if I could have said what I

needed to and not be scared speechless.

Lynda

>>

[Guest guest]

Hi Lynda,

This is where journaling and writing are important. I'd recommend that

you write a letter to your friend and tell her in the letter exactly

what you wanted to say. By getting it down on paper, this will get it

out of your head and help provide closure. You don't need to send her

the letter, but it is important that you do write it.

When I first started journaling, and later read what I had written, was

when I understood for the first time that I'd been abused. That was a

HUGE step for me toward healing.

Hugs,

Edith

-PsyProf@...

.... when my BP friend started to scream at me , calling me manipulaive,

controlling, possessive and other names that don't fit my personality

too well, I just verbally and mentally went blank. Later of course, I

knew exactly what I wanted to say, but she wouldn't answer her phone or

call back, so I never got to say any of it. I too feel frozen and

unable to say what I need to because my brain goes into panic and I go

blank.

I wish that didn't happen to me, or that I could control it better - it

would have made things easier to deal with if I could have said what I

needed to and not be scared speechless.

Lynda

>>

[Guest guest]

Hi Lynda,

This is where journaling and writing are important. I'd recommend that

you write a letter to your friend and tell her in the letter exactly

what you wanted to say. By getting it down on paper, this will get it

out of your head and help provide closure. You don't need to send her

the letter, but it is important that you do write it.

When I first started journaling, and later read what I had written, was

when I understood for the first time that I'd been abused. That was a

HUGE step for me toward healing.

Hugs,

Edith

-PsyProf@...

.... when my BP friend started to scream at me , calling me manipulaive,

controlling, possessive and other names that don't fit my personality

too well, I just verbally and mentally went blank. Later of course, I

knew exactly what I wanted to say, but she wouldn't answer her phone or

call back, so I never got to say any of it. I too feel frozen and

unable to say what I need to because my brain goes into panic and I go

blank.

I wish that didn't happen to me, or that I could control it better - it

would have made things easier to deal with if I could have said what I

needed to and not be scared speechless.

Lynda

>>

[Guest guest]

<<

My theory is that as an only child of a BPD mother, she has

developed some unhealthy relationship skills. I know that

children/spouses of alcoholics develop a co-dependency. Is the

same true with BPDs?

>>

Definitely yes, although I'm not sure you could call it

co-dependency in the same sense as with alcoholics (although

there are definitely similarities). The impact that our

parent(s) have on us is tremendous. If they are dysfunctional,

you can bet your butt the kids will have problems too.

Fortunately, it is not a life sentence (even if it sometimes

feels like one)!

<<

Are there any adult children of BPDs who have examined their own

behavior in relationships?

>>

Of course! That is why many of us are on this list. To learn

how to deal with the BPs in our lives, but also to learn how our

nadas/fadas (aka BP mothers/fathers) have affected us in other

areas of our lives.

<<

What are the relationship/behavioral characteristics of BPD

children?

>>

Although us KOs (kids of BPs) share many similarities, each of

us is unique, so I will try to speak only about myself and try

not to generalize. Remember that your girlfriend may be very

different from me.

A lot of what Ellen said applies to me as well. I have been

with my husband for six years (married for three). One thing

you said in your message really caught my eye -- you said

everything was great for nine months, but the last three have

been problematic. Again, your girlfriend may be different from

me, but I did a similar thing, and here is why... As my

relationship with my now husband got more and more serious, the

risk I was taking (the chance of being hurt, abandoned, etc.)

also became more and more serious. What had been fun and

light-hearted suddenly became terrifying and scary. As my love

for him grew, so did my fear. I found myself pulling away from

him, while at the same time being terrified of HIS rejection. I

also found intimacy to be more and more difficult as it came to

be an expression of love instead of just something that was fun.

Of course, I have other complicating factors, as I was in a two

year sexually abusive relationship that ended three years prior

to meeting my husband. The scars from that abuse are very deep,

and they continue to affect me to this day.

As my relationship with my husband progressed, I was incredibly

sensitive to any perceived or real slight or abandonment. I

became immensely angry when he did things without me (I

understand now it's because I interpreted it to mean that he

didn't want to be with me -- e.g., rejection/abandonment). At

the same time, I knew my anger was unfair, and that it wasn't

healthy for couples to be joined at the hip. This left me

feeling very conflicted and confused, and also stopped me from

sharing my anger (I was stuck with it, just like I've been stuck

with many of my emotions for most of my life, due to my BP

mother not allowing me to express them). This triggered me and

left me feeling like I did with my FOO (family of origin), which

is not a pleasant feeling. And this further intensified my

feelings of fear, and my desire to put distance between us.

I think I have the most difficulty in our relationship when *I

feel* like he doesn't want to hear how I feel or what I have to

say. Due to my upbringing (which consisted of me being punished

whenever I expressed a thought or emotion that was not what my

mother wanted), I am hypersensitive to any indication that he

doesn't want to hear me, or that he thinks I'm " wrong " . He very

rarely feels that way, but due to my hypersensitivity, I often

think he does when he really doesn't. This causes me to clam up

and retreat because I feel an overwhelming need to protect

myself. This is a reaction to my upbringing, NOT to him, but it

is a deeply ingrained behavior. We have developed some ways of

dealing with this: he tries to actively listen to me, mirroring

back to me what I am saying so I know he is listening and

interested. Also, if he notices me retreating and getting that

silent anger, he tries to draw me out. It's amazing what the

phrase, " You seem upset, would you like to tell me about it? "

can do -- it's like the key to the magic kingdom. It lets me

know that the way I feel DOES matter to him, and my anger

usually dissolves. He also has ADD, and frequently interrupts

me in casual conversation, and this has been a problem because I

end up feeling like he doesn't care about what I'm saying. This

is also considered to be rude by society in general! So he has

been working on that, and I try to be understanding when he

interrupts because I know he's doing it so he won't forget what

he wants to say.

It is impossible to sum up in an e-mail the complexities of my

relationship with my husband, and the ways in which my

upbringing have affected it. I hope these few examples help.

Also, we spent over two years in couples therapy that was very,

very helpful for us. Despite the fact that I was already in

individual therapy, it was the couples therapy that was really a

turning point for our relationship. I grew to understand him so

much better, and he understands me. (Although therapy can be

expensive, we found a clinic run by a local university that was

staffed by their graduate students. They offered a sliding fee

scale, with the maximum charge of $20 per visit.) Which leads

me to your final question:

<<

I'd like to know what to expect and how to be supportive.

>>

It's difficult to tell you what to expect, although you may find

it useful to stay on this list and also read our archives. I

know some new lists have been formed recently, perhaps there is

now one that's specifically for partners of KOs (Edith? Randi?).

It's a bit easier to suggest ways in which you can be

supportive. Have you read any of the books on BPD? Stop

Walking on Eggshells (SWOE) would be an excellent place to

start. Also, Understanding the Borderline Mother (UTBM), If You

Had Controlling Parents, and Toxic Parents. There are other

books as well -- books on co-dependency (a good one is

Co-Dependent No More, by Melody Beattie... it's geared towards

alcoholics, but I found the info useful), books on shame (many

KOs are steeped in shame, although it may take a while for them

to realize it), and many others that I can't remember right now

(help me out here, list members!). There are lists of books in

SWOE and on bpdcentral.com, as well as on various other BPD

websites.

I think what has helped me more than anything is knowing that my

husband mostly understands what I have been through, and what I

continue to go through. He doesn't offer " quick fixes " (e.g.,

" just tell her to stop it " ) that dismiss the complexity of my

experiences. He also accepts my feelings instead of dismissing

them. More than anything, I hate people that tell me, " Oh,

you're fine " or " Oh, you're just overreacting, stop blowing

things out of proportion. " My whole life I've been told what I

can and can't feel, and he does a very good job of NOT doing

this. He LISTENS to me. It took him a while to understand

this, but more than anything, I just need him to LISTEN and

UNDERSTAND. I don't need him to change my life (I have to do

that myself) -- I just need him to be there for me. Another

thing I need from him is reassurance -- it helps when he tells

me he loves me, when he tells me it's okay that I'm not perfect,

that he loves me just the way I am, when he tells me he's proud

of me (something my parents never said), when he tells me I've

done a good job, when he tells me I'm beautiful. He is also

very patient with me, and does not get angry or yell at me when

I am going through a difficult time. Not to say he doesn't have

the right to his emotions (and a problem HE brings to our

relationship is his difficulty in expressing his emotions), but

we have worked hard to establish healthy ways to communicate

that don't threaten or hurt either of us.

You don't mention much about how your girlfriend is coping with

this. Has she read any of the books? Is she in therapy? Not

that therapy is crucial, but I believe a good therapist can help

SO much (I am deeply grateful to my therapist for all of her

help). I would caution against telling her what to do, but if

she isn't aware already, you may want to let her know what

resources are available to her (including this list), and then

support her no matter how she chooses to cope (even if you don't

agree with her methods -- we each have a unique healing path

that we come to in our own time).

One final note -- you mention you don't think she's a BP because

she doesn't rage. While I surely hope she isn't BP, it is not

necessary for someone to rage to be a BP. While my mother does

rage, they are few and far between. Her preferred method is

extremely passive/agressive behavior. Understand that you

cannot control your girlfriend's behavior. While you can

encourage and support her efforts to heal, you cannot make her

do it. Do not sacrifice yourself in an effort to " save " someone

else. You do not deserve to be treated badly, no matter what

her issues are. I am not trying to suggest that this is going

on, it is just a precautionary statement that I feel is

necessary.

I hope this has been helpful to you. Keep posting to the list,

or you may contact me offlist if you wish, if you have any other

questions.

Peace on earth,

Anon

--- reynoldssh@... wrote:

> Background:

> I've been in a one year, committed relationship with the

> daughter

> (only child) of a BPD mother. The BPD mother and father

> divorced when

> she was 3 and the BPD mother essentially raised her alone.

>

> Situation:

> For the first nine months of the relationship, everything was

> great!

> However, in the last three months, the nonBPD daughter has

> begun

> exhibiting very peculiar behavior. She exhibits seemingly

> irrational

> behavior, and from one moment to the next wants to marry me,

> then

> leave me. I've detected that she too seems to have an

> irrational fear

> of abandonment. I don't think she's BPD too because there are

> no

> rages. I consider myself pretty stable and am not at all

> moody. In

> recent months, I have discovered that she compartmentalizes

> and has

> excluded me from important parts of her life. It appears that

> her

> ability to communicate her feelings concerning difficult

> issues is

> impaired. I'm struggling trying to find some reason or logic

> to her

> behavior. When I ask, and truly try to listen or understand,

> she is

> unable to explain her feelings or her actions and quickly ends

>

> with " I don't know " .

>

> Questions:

> My theory is that as an only child of a BPD mother, she has

> developed

> some unhealthy relationship skills. I know that

> children/spouses of

> alcoholics develop a co-dependency. Is the same true with

> BPDs? Are

> there any adult children of BPDs who have examined their own

> behavior

> in relationships? What are the relationship/behavioral

> characteristics of BPD children? I'd like to know what to

> expect and

> how to be supportive. Thanks!

>

>

__________________________________________________

Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help?

Donate cash, emergency relief information

http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/

[Guest guest]

<<

My theory is that as an only child of a BPD mother, she has

developed some unhealthy relationship skills. I know that

children/spouses of alcoholics develop a co-dependency. Is the

same true with BPDs?

>>

Definitely yes, although I'm not sure you could call it

co-dependency in the same sense as with alcoholics (although

there are definitely similarities). The impact that our

parent(s) have on us is tremendous. If they are dysfunctional,

you can bet your butt the kids will have problems too.

Fortunately, it is not a life sentence (even if it sometimes

feels like one)!

<<

Are there any adult children of BPDs who have examined their own

behavior in relationships?

>>

Of course! That is why many of us are on this list. To learn

how to deal with the BPs in our lives, but also to learn how our

nadas/fadas (aka BP mothers/fathers) have affected us in other

areas of our lives.

<<

What are the relationship/behavioral characteristics of BPD

children?

>>

Although us KOs (kids of BPs) share many similarities, each of

us is unique, so I will try to speak only about myself and try

not to generalize. Remember that your girlfriend may be very

different from me.

A lot of what Ellen said applies to me as well. I have been

with my husband for six years (married for three). One thing

you said in your message really caught my eye -- you said

everything was great for nine months, but the last three have

been problematic. Again, your girlfriend may be different from

me, but I did a similar thing, and here is why... As my

relationship with my now husband got more and more serious, the

risk I was taking (the chance of being hurt, abandoned, etc.)

also became more and more serious. What had been fun and

light-hearted suddenly became terrifying and scary. As my love

for him grew, so did my fear. I found myself pulling away from

him, while at the same time being terrified of HIS rejection. I

also found intimacy to be more and more difficult as it came to

be an expression of love instead of just something that was fun.

Of course, I have other complicating factors, as I was in a two

year sexually abusive relationship that ended three years prior

to meeting my husband. The scars from that abuse are very deep,

and they continue to affect me to this day.

As my relationship with my husband progressed, I was incredibly

sensitive to any perceived or real slight or abandonment. I

became immensely angry when he did things without me (I

understand now it's because I interpreted it to mean that he

didn't want to be with me -- e.g., rejection/abandonment). At

the same time, I knew my anger was unfair, and that it wasn't

healthy for couples to be joined at the hip. This left me

feeling very conflicted and confused, and also stopped me from

sharing my anger (I was stuck with it, just like I've been stuck

with many of my emotions for most of my life, due to my BP

mother not allowing me to express them). This triggered me and

left me feeling like I did with my FOO (family of origin), which

is not a pleasant feeling. And this further intensified my

feelings of fear, and my desire to put distance between us.

I think I have the most difficulty in our relationship when *I

feel* like he doesn't want to hear how I feel or what I have to

say. Due to my upbringing (which consisted of me being punished

whenever I expressed a thought or emotion that was not what my

mother wanted), I am hypersensitive to any indication that he

doesn't want to hear me, or that he thinks I'm " wrong " . He very

rarely feels that way, but due to my hypersensitivity, I often

think he does when he really doesn't. This causes me to clam up

and retreat because I feel an overwhelming need to protect

myself. This is a reaction to my upbringing, NOT to him, but it

is a deeply ingrained behavior. We have developed some ways of

dealing with this: he tries to actively listen to me, mirroring

back to me what I am saying so I know he is listening and

interested. Also, if he notices me retreating and getting that

silent anger, he tries to draw me out. It's amazing what the

phrase, " You seem upset, would you like to tell me about it? "

can do -- it's like the key to the magic kingdom. It lets me

know that the way I feel DOES matter to him, and my anger

usually dissolves. He also has ADD, and frequently interrupts

me in casual conversation, and this has been a problem because I

end up feeling like he doesn't care about what I'm saying. This

is also considered to be rude by society in general! So he has

been working on that, and I try to be understanding when he

interrupts because I know he's doing it so he won't forget what

he wants to say.

It is impossible to sum up in an e-mail the complexities of my

relationship with my husband, and the ways in which my

upbringing have affected it. I hope these few examples help.

Also, we spent over two years in couples therapy that was very,

very helpful for us. Despite the fact that I was already in

individual therapy, it was the couples therapy that was really a

turning point for our relationship. I grew to understand him so

much better, and he understands me. (Although therapy can be

expensive, we found a clinic run by a local university that was

staffed by their graduate students. They offered a sliding fee

scale, with the maximum charge of $20 per visit.) Which leads

me to your final question:

<<

I'd like to know what to expect and how to be supportive.

>>

It's difficult to tell you what to expect, although you may find

it useful to stay on this list and also read our archives. I

know some new lists have been formed recently, perhaps there is

now one that's specifically for partners of KOs (Edith? Randi?).

It's a bit easier to suggest ways in which you can be

supportive. Have you read any of the books on BPD? Stop

Walking on Eggshells (SWOE) would be an excellent place to

start. Also, Understanding the Borderline Mother (UTBM), If You

Had Controlling Parents, and Toxic Parents. There are other

books as well -- books on co-dependency (a good one is

Co-Dependent No More, by Melody Beattie... it's geared towards

alcoholics, but I found the info useful), books on shame (many

KOs are steeped in shame, although it may take a while for them

to realize it), and many others that I can't remember right now

(help me out here, list members!). There are lists of books in

SWOE and on bpdcentral.com, as well as on various other BPD

websites.

I think what has helped me more than anything is knowing that my

husband mostly understands what I have been through, and what I

continue to go through. He doesn't offer " quick fixes " (e.g.,

" just tell her to stop it " ) that dismiss the complexity of my

experiences. He also accepts my feelings instead of dismissing

them. More than anything, I hate people that tell me, " Oh,

you're fine " or " Oh, you're just overreacting, stop blowing

things out of proportion. " My whole life I've been told what I

can and can't feel, and he does a very good job of NOT doing

this. He LISTENS to me. It took him a while to understand

this, but more than anything, I just need him to LISTEN and

UNDERSTAND. I don't need him to change my life (I have to do

that myself) -- I just need him to be there for me. Another

thing I need from him is reassurance -- it helps when he tells

me he loves me, when he tells me it's okay that I'm not perfect,

that he loves me just the way I am, when he tells me he's proud

of me (something my parents never said), when he tells me I've

done a good job, when he tells me I'm beautiful. He is also

very patient with me, and does not get angry or yell at me when

I am going through a difficult time. Not to say he doesn't have

the right to his emotions (and a problem HE brings to our

relationship is his difficulty in expressing his emotions), but

we have worked hard to establish healthy ways to communicate

that don't threaten or hurt either of us.

You don't mention much about how your girlfriend is coping with

this. Has she read any of the books? Is she in therapy? Not

that therapy is crucial, but I believe a good therapist can help

SO much (I am deeply grateful to my therapist for all of her

help). I would caution against telling her what to do, but if

she isn't aware already, you may want to let her know what

resources are available to her (including this list), and then

support her no matter how she chooses to cope (even if you don't

agree with her methods -- we each have a unique healing path

that we come to in our own time).

One final note -- you mention you don't think she's a BP because

she doesn't rage. While I surely hope she isn't BP, it is not

necessary for someone to rage to be a BP. While my mother does

rage, they are few and far between. Her preferred method is

extremely passive/agressive behavior. Understand that you

cannot control your girlfriend's behavior. While you can

encourage and support her efforts to heal, you cannot make her

do it. Do not sacrifice yourself in an effort to " save " someone

else. You do not deserve to be treated badly, no matter what

her issues are. I am not trying to suggest that this is going

on, it is just a precautionary statement that I feel is

necessary.

I hope this has been helpful to you. Keep posting to the list,

or you may contact me offlist if you wish, if you have any other

questions.

Peace on earth,

Anon

--- reynoldssh@... wrote:

> Background:

> I've been in a one year, committed relationship with the

> daughter

> (only child) of a BPD mother. The BPD mother and father

> divorced when

> she was 3 and the BPD mother essentially raised her alone.

>

> Situation:

> For the first nine months of the relationship, everything was

> great!

> However, in the last three months, the nonBPD daughter has

> begun

> exhibiting very peculiar behavior. She exhibits seemingly

> irrational

> behavior, and from one moment to the next wants to marry me,

> then

> leave me. I've detected that she too seems to have an

> irrational fear

> of abandonment. I don't think she's BPD too because there are

> no

> rages. I consider myself pretty stable and am not at all

> moody. In

> recent months, I have discovered that she compartmentalizes

> and has

> excluded me from important parts of her life. It appears that

> her

> ability to communicate her feelings concerning difficult

> issues is

> impaired. I'm struggling trying to find some reason or logic

> to her

> behavior. When I ask, and truly try to listen or understand,

> she is

> unable to explain her feelings or her actions and quickly ends

>

> with " I don't know " .

>

> Questions:

> My theory is that as an only child of a BPD mother, she has

> developed

> some unhealthy relationship skills. I know that

> children/spouses of

> alcoholics develop a co-dependency. Is the same true with

> BPDs? Are

> there any adult children of BPDs who have examined their own

> behavior

> in relationships? What are the relationship/behavioral

> characteristics of BPD children? I'd like to know what to

> expect and

> how to be supportive. Thanks!

>

>

__________________________________________________

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[Guest guest]

<<

My theory is that as an only child of a BPD mother, she has

developed some unhealthy relationship skills. I know that

children/spouses of alcoholics develop a co-dependency. Is the

same true with BPDs?

>>

Definitely yes, although I'm not sure you could call it

co-dependency in the same sense as with alcoholics (although

there are definitely similarities). The impact that our

parent(s) have on us is tremendous. If they are dysfunctional,

you can bet your butt the kids will have problems too.

Fortunately, it is not a life sentence (even if it sometimes

feels like one)!

<<

Are there any adult children of BPDs who have examined their own

behavior in relationships?

>>

Of course! That is why many of us are on this list. To learn

how to deal with the BPs in our lives, but also to learn how our

nadas/fadas (aka BP mothers/fathers) have affected us in other

areas of our lives.

<<

What are the relationship/behavioral characteristics of BPD

children?

>>

Although us KOs (kids of BPs) share many similarities, each of

us is unique, so I will try to speak only about myself and try

not to generalize. Remember that your girlfriend may be very

different from me.

A lot of what Ellen said applies to me as well. I have been

with my husband for six years (married for three). One thing

you said in your message really caught my eye -- you said

everything was great for nine months, but the last three have

been problematic. Again, your girlfriend may be different from

me, but I did a similar thing, and here is why... As my

relationship with my now husband got more and more serious, the

risk I was taking (the chance of being hurt, abandoned, etc.)

also became more and more serious. What had been fun and

light-hearted suddenly became terrifying and scary. As my love

for him grew, so did my fear. I found myself pulling away from

him, while at the same time being terrified of HIS rejection. I

also found intimacy to be more and more difficult as it came to

be an expression of love instead of just something that was fun.

Of course, I have other complicating factors, as I was in a two

year sexually abusive relationship that ended three years prior

to meeting my husband. The scars from that abuse are very deep,

and they continue to affect me to this day.

As my relationship with my husband progressed, I was incredibly

sensitive to any perceived or real slight or abandonment. I

became immensely angry when he did things without me (I

understand now it's because I interpreted it to mean that he

didn't want to be with me -- e.g., rejection/abandonment). At

the same time, I knew my anger was unfair, and that it wasn't

healthy for couples to be joined at the hip. This left me

feeling very conflicted and confused, and also stopped me from

sharing my anger (I was stuck with it, just like I've been stuck

with many of my emotions for most of my life, due to my BP

mother not allowing me to express them). This triggered me and

left me feeling like I did with my FOO (family of origin), which

is not a pleasant feeling. And this further intensified my

feelings of fear, and my desire to put distance between us.

I think I have the most difficulty in our relationship when *I

feel* like he doesn't want to hear how I feel or what I have to

say. Due to my upbringing (which consisted of me being punished

whenever I expressed a thought or emotion that was not what my

mother wanted), I am hypersensitive to any indication that he

doesn't want to hear me, or that he thinks I'm " wrong " . He very

rarely feels that way, but due to my hypersensitivity, I often

think he does when he really doesn't. This causes me to clam up

and retreat because I feel an overwhelming need to protect

myself. This is a reaction to my upbringing, NOT to him, but it

is a deeply ingrained behavior. We have developed some ways of

dealing with this: he tries to actively listen to me, mirroring

back to me what I am saying so I know he is listening and

interested. Also, if he notices me retreating and getting that

silent anger, he tries to draw me out. It's amazing what the

phrase, " You seem upset, would you like to tell me about it? "

can do -- it's like the key to the magic kingdom. It lets me

know that the way I feel DOES matter to him, and my anger

usually dissolves. He also has ADD, and frequently interrupts

me in casual conversation, and this has been a problem because I

end up feeling like he doesn't care about what I'm saying. This

is also considered to be rude by society in general! So he has

been working on that, and I try to be understanding when he

interrupts because I know he's doing it so he won't forget what

he wants to say.

It is impossible to sum up in an e-mail the complexities of my

relationship with my husband, and the ways in which my

upbringing have affected it. I hope these few examples help.

Also, we spent over two years in couples therapy that was very,

very helpful for us. Despite the fact that I was already in

individual therapy, it was the couples therapy that was really a

turning point for our relationship. I grew to understand him so

much better, and he understands me. (Although therapy can be

expensive, we found a clinic run by a local university that was

staffed by their graduate students. They offered a sliding fee

scale, with the maximum charge of $20 per visit.) Which leads

me to your final question:

<<

I'd like to know what to expect and how to be supportive.

>>

It's difficult to tell you what to expect, although you may find

it useful to stay on this list and also read our archives. I

know some new lists have been formed recently, perhaps there is

now one that's specifically for partners of KOs (Edith? Randi?).

It's a bit easier to suggest ways in which you can be

supportive. Have you read any of the books on BPD? Stop

Walking on Eggshells (SWOE) would be an excellent place to

start. Also, Understanding the Borderline Mother (UTBM), If You

Had Controlling Parents, and Toxic Parents. There are other

books as well -- books on co-dependency (a good one is

Co-Dependent No More, by Melody Beattie... it's geared towards

alcoholics, but I found the info useful), books on shame (many

KOs are steeped in shame, although it may take a while for them

to realize it), and many others that I can't remember right now

(help me out here, list members!). There are lists of books in

SWOE and on bpdcentral.com, as well as on various other BPD

websites.

I think what has helped me more than anything is knowing that my

husband mostly understands what I have been through, and what I

continue to go through. He doesn't offer " quick fixes " (e.g.,

" just tell her to stop it " ) that dismiss the complexity of my

experiences. He also accepts my feelings instead of dismissing

them. More than anything, I hate people that tell me, " Oh,

you're fine " or " Oh, you're just overreacting, stop blowing

things out of proportion. " My whole life I've been told what I

can and can't feel, and he does a very good job of NOT doing

this. He LISTENS to me. It took him a while to understand

this, but more than anything, I just need him to LISTEN and

UNDERSTAND. I don't need him to change my life (I have to do

that myself) -- I just need him to be there for me. Another

thing I need from him is reassurance -- it helps when he tells

me he loves me, when he tells me it's okay that I'm not perfect,

that he loves me just the way I am, when he tells me he's proud

of me (something my parents never said), when he tells me I've

done a good job, when he tells me I'm beautiful. He is also

very patient with me, and does not get angry or yell at me when

I am going through a difficult time. Not to say he doesn't have

the right to his emotions (and a problem HE brings to our

relationship is his difficulty in expressing his emotions), but

we have worked hard to establish healthy ways to communicate

that don't threaten or hurt either of us.

You don't mention much about how your girlfriend is coping with

this. Has she read any of the books? Is she in therapy? Not

that therapy is crucial, but I believe a good therapist can help

SO much (I am deeply grateful to my therapist for all of her

help). I would caution against telling her what to do, but if

she isn't aware already, you may want to let her know what

resources are available to her (including this list), and then

support her no matter how she chooses to cope (even if you don't

agree with her methods -- we each have a unique healing path

that we come to in our own time).

One final note -- you mention you don't think she's a BP because

she doesn't rage. While I surely hope she isn't BP, it is not

necessary for someone to rage to be a BP. While my mother does

rage, they are few and far between. Her preferred method is

extremely passive/agressive behavior. Understand that you

cannot control your girlfriend's behavior. While you can

encourage and support her efforts to heal, you cannot make her

do it. Do not sacrifice yourself in an effort to " save " someone

else. You do not deserve to be treated badly, no matter what

her issues are. I am not trying to suggest that this is going

on, it is just a precautionary statement that I feel is

necessary.

I hope this has been helpful to you. Keep posting to the list,

or you may contact me offlist if you wish, if you have any other

questions.

Peace on earth,

Anon

--- reynoldssh@... wrote:

> Background:

> I've been in a one year, committed relationship with the

> daughter

> (only child) of a BPD mother. The BPD mother and father

> divorced when

> she was 3 and the BPD mother essentially raised her alone.

>

> Situation:

> For the first nine months of the relationship, everything was

> great!

> However, in the last three months, the nonBPD daughter has

> begun

> exhibiting very peculiar behavior. She exhibits seemingly

> irrational

> behavior, and from one moment to the next wants to marry me,

> then

> leave me. I've detected that she too seems to have an

> irrational fear

> of abandonment. I don't think she's BPD too because there are

> no

> rages. I consider myself pretty stable and am not at all

> moody. In

> recent months, I have discovered that she compartmentalizes

> and has

> excluded me from important parts of her life. It appears that

> her

> ability to communicate her feelings concerning difficult

> issues is

> impaired. I'm struggling trying to find some reason or logic

> to her

> behavior. When I ask, and truly try to listen or understand,

> she is

> unable to explain her feelings or her actions and quickly ends

>

> with " I don't know " .

>

> Questions:

> My theory is that as an only child of a BPD mother, she has

> developed

> some unhealthy relationship skills. I know that

> children/spouses of

> alcoholics develop a co-dependency. Is the same true with

> BPDs? Are

> there any adult children of BPDs who have examined their own

> behavior

> in relationships? What are the relationship/behavioral

> characteristics of BPD children? I'd like to know what to

> expect and

> how to be supportive. Thanks!

>

>

__________________________________________________

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[Guest guest]

Dear ,

I appreciate your kind response to my e-mail. I felt your response and

suggestions on oversensitivity were right on target too! Boy I am sensitive

to critism from my spouse and it can make such a difference on how he

speaks with me!

" I have learned to just calm down, be quiet and listen(although eventually

if the anger doesn't stop, I do just leave for a while.... " - THANKS!

I'll remember to do this more often- I have PTSD even when he sounds angry

with the children. I'm not sure how to break this...

Hugs,

Ellen

[Guest guest]

Ellen,

Unfortunately, I am still unable to do this everytime,

about once a month (pms) I lose it. But I keep trying

because I don't want to be like that at all!.

--- " Ellen C. Greene " wrote:

> Dear ,

>

> I appreciate your kind response to my e-mail. I felt

> your response and

> suggestions on oversensitivity were right on target

> too! Boy I am sensitive

> to critism from my spouse and it can make such a

> difference on how he

> speaks with me!

>

> " I have learned to just calm down, be quiet and

> listen(although eventually

> if the anger doesn't stop, I do just leave for a

> while.... " - THANKS!

> I'll remember to do this more often- I have PTSD

> even when he sounds angry

> with the children. I'm not sure how to break

> this...

>

> Hugs,

>

> Ellen

>

__________________________________________________

Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help?

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[Guest guest]

,

I've found that exercising (for me aerobics) during PMS is very helpful.

If I don't exercise I get very moody too-

Ellen

At 03:09 PM 9/15/01 -0700, you wrote:

>Ellen,

>

>Unfortunately, I am still unable to do this everytime,

>about once a month (pms) I lose it. But I keep trying

>because I don't want to be like that at all!.

>

>

>--- " Ellen C. Greene " wrote:

>> Dear ,

>>

>> I appreciate your kind response to my e-mail. I felt

>> your response and

>> suggestions on oversensitivity were right on target

>> too! Boy I am sensitive

>> to critism from my spouse and it can make such a

>> difference on how he

>> speaks with me!

>>

>> " I have learned to just calm down, be quiet and

>> listen(although eventually

>> if the anger doesn't stop, I do just leave for a

>> while.... " - THANKS!

>> I'll remember to do this more often- I have PTSD

>> even when he sounds angry

>> with the children. I'm not sure how to break

>> this...

>>

>> Hugs,

>>

>> Ellen

>>

>

>

>__________________________________________________

>Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help?

>Donate cash, emergency relief information

>http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/

>

>

>To get off the list, send a blank message to

ModOasis-unsubscribe . Send questions & concerns to

ModOasis-owner . " Stop Waking on Eggshells, " a primer for

non-BPs can be ordered via 1-888-35-SHELL (). For the table of

contents, see http://www.BPDCentral.com

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

,

I've found that exercising (for me aerobics) during PMS is very helpful.

If I don't exercise I get very moody too-

Ellen

At 03:09 PM 9/15/01 -0700, you wrote:

>Ellen,

>

>Unfortunately, I am still unable to do this everytime,

>about once a month (pms) I lose it. But I keep trying

>because I don't want to be like that at all!.

>

>

>--- " Ellen C. Greene " wrote:

>> Dear ,

>>

>> I appreciate your kind response to my e-mail. I felt

>> your response and

>> suggestions on oversensitivity were right on target

>> too! Boy I am sensitive

>> to critism from my spouse and it can make such a

>> difference on how he

>> speaks with me!

>>

>> " I have learned to just calm down, be quiet and

>> listen(although eventually

>> if the anger doesn't stop, I do just leave for a

>> while.... " - THANKS!

>> I'll remember to do this more often- I have PTSD

>> even when he sounds angry

>> with the children. I'm not sure how to break

>> this...

>>

>> Hugs,

>>

>> Ellen

>>

>

>

>__________________________________________________

>Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help?

>Donate cash, emergency relief information

>http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/

>

>

>To get off the list, send a blank message to

ModOasis-unsubscribe . Send questions & concerns to

ModOasis-owner . " Stop Waking on Eggshells, " a primer for

non-BPs can be ordered via 1-888-35-SHELL (). For the table of

contents, see http://www.BPDCentral.com

>

>

>

>