Re: The Learning Curve's Assessment vs. The qEEG?

[Guest guest]

Thank you, !

Now if I could only figure out how to unwrap (or is it wrap?) the

lines in my posts!

Liz

> >

> > Question from a Neuro-Newbie:

> >

> > If a prospective client called you and said, " I heard about this thing

> > thing called a qEEG assessment. It seems to be what all these other

> > neurofeedback practitioners do. How come you're doing this other,

> > " learning curve " kind of assessment instead? " what would you say?

> >

> >

> >

>

>

>

> --

> Van Deusen

> pvdtlc@...

> http://www.brain-trainer.com

> 305/433-3160

> The Learning Curve, Inc.

>

[Guest guest]

Thank you, !

Now if I could only figure out how to unwrap (or is it wrap?) the

lines in my posts!

Liz

> >

> > Question from a Neuro-Newbie:

> >

> > If a prospective client called you and said, " I heard about this thing

> > thing called a qEEG assessment. It seems to be what all these other

> > neurofeedback practitioners do. How come you're doing this other,

> > " learning curve " kind of assessment instead? " what would you say?

> >

> >

> >

>

>

>

> --

> Van Deusen

> pvdtlc@...

> http://www.brain-trainer.com

> 305/433-3160

> The Learning Curve, Inc.

>

[Guest guest]

Hello Francois,

You made this statement and I wonder if you would say more about it so I can understand what you meant."...if you use the ProComp Infiniti, you can now assess 6 channels at once (like F3F4, P3P4 and FzOz), which increase the validity of the relationships between these sites (like the following ratios: F4/F3, Fz/F3, Fz/F4, Fz/Oz, F3/P3, F4/P4)."

Thank you in advance.

Anita Remig, Ed.D.

Licensed Psychologist

To: braintrainer From: fdupont-phd@...Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 00:50:39 -0400Subject: RE: The Learning Curve's Assessment vs. The qEEG?

If I may add something here,

I was asked this question a few times and my answer was very similar to yours . I also added something like this:

“Some people, even very well known and respected in the field, do some form of a one site assessment, most of the time, and will send a more complex case for a full QEEG. I prefer to do a 12 or 18 site assessment for every client, as a routine”.

And, between us, how can we decide that a person is a simple case enough to not look at aspects like potential Hot Temporals; for example, in the case of presenting difficulties with attention? Because of a former “simple” diagnosis of ADD?

Neandergal, I don’t know what equipment you have, but if you use the ProComp Infiniti, you can now assess 6 channels at once (like F3F4, P3P4 and FzOz), which increase the validity of the relationships between these sites (like the following ratios: F4/F3, Fz/F3, Fz/F4, Fz/Oz, F3/P3, F4/P4).

Best regards,

François Dupont, Ph.D., C.Psych.

Psychologie clinique, de la santé et de la réadaptation

Thérapie, évaluation et consultation

Pratique privée http://www3.sympatico.ca/fdupont-phd

Clinical, health, and rehabilitation psychology

Therapy, assessment, and consultation

Private practice fdupont-phdsympatico (DOT) ca

Université/y d’/of Ottawa; Service de santé / Health Services

100-100 Marie-Curie, Ottawa, Ontario, K1N 6N5 Canada

Tél. : (61... poste/ext. 250 ; Fax :

De : braintrainer [mailto:braintrainer ] De la part de Van DeusenEnvoyé : 12 octobre 2007 13:36À : braintrainer Objet : Re: The Learning Curve's Assessment vs. The qEEG?

I would say,

"Of course, if you would like a QEEG I can order that for you. It will cost between $500 and $1500 compared to $X I charge to do the TLC.

I prefer the TLC because it does not compare you against some kind of "average" brain as the QEEG does. Rather it looks at relationships in your own brain and identifies those which are most likely to be related to the things you want to change. I also like it because instead of producing 20-30 pages of data, it focuses on views of the brain that are most likely to be related to your training goals. It is not designed to diagnose you. It is focused on identifying the training approaches which fit what you want.

NF providers who use QEEG's on all clients are in the minority. A number of others use the TLC for the reasons mentioned above. And many others don't look at the brain at all before deciding what to train.

Tell me how you would like to proceed."

Pete

On 10/12/07, neandergal <drmargoshesgmail> wrote:

Question from a Neuro-Newbie:If a prospective client called you and said, "I heard about this thingthing called a qEEG assessment. It seems to be what all these otherneurofeedback practitioners do. How come you're doing this other, "learning curve" kind of assessment instead?" what would you say?

-- Van Deusen

Windows Live Hotmail and Microsoft Office Outlook – together at last. Get it now!

[Guest guest]

Hello Francois,

You made this statement and I wonder if you would say more about it so I can understand what you meant."...if you use the ProComp Infiniti, you can now assess 6 channels at once (like F3F4, P3P4 and FzOz), which increase the validity of the relationships between these sites (like the following ratios: F4/F3, Fz/F3, Fz/F4, Fz/Oz, F3/P3, F4/P4)."

Thank you in advance.

Anita Remig, Ed.D.

Licensed Psychologist

To: braintrainer From: fdupont-phd@...Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 00:50:39 -0400Subject: RE: The Learning Curve's Assessment vs. The qEEG?

If I may add something here,

I was asked this question a few times and my answer was very similar to yours . I also added something like this:

“Some people, even very well known and respected in the field, do some form of a one site assessment, most of the time, and will send a more complex case for a full QEEG. I prefer to do a 12 or 18 site assessment for every client, as a routine”.

And, between us, how can we decide that a person is a simple case enough to not look at aspects like potential Hot Temporals; for example, in the case of presenting difficulties with attention? Because of a former “simple” diagnosis of ADD?

Neandergal, I don’t know what equipment you have, but if you use the ProComp Infiniti, you can now assess 6 channels at once (like F3F4, P3P4 and FzOz), which increase the validity of the relationships between these sites (like the following ratios: F4/F3, Fz/F3, Fz/F4, Fz/Oz, F3/P3, F4/P4).

Best regards,

François Dupont, Ph.D., C.Psych.

Psychologie clinique, de la santé et de la réadaptation

Thérapie, évaluation et consultation

Pratique privée http://www3.sympatico.ca/fdupont-phd

Clinical, health, and rehabilitation psychology

Therapy, assessment, and consultation

Private practice fdupont-phdsympatico (DOT) ca

Université/y d’/of Ottawa; Service de santé / Health Services

100-100 Marie-Curie, Ottawa, Ontario, K1N 6N5 Canada

Tél. : (61... poste/ext. 250 ; Fax :

De : braintrainer [mailto:braintrainer ] De la part de Van DeusenEnvoyé : 12 octobre 2007 13:36À : braintrainer Objet : Re: The Learning Curve's Assessment vs. The qEEG?

I would say,

"Of course, if you would like a QEEG I can order that for you. It will cost between $500 and $1500 compared to $X I charge to do the TLC.

I prefer the TLC because it does not compare you against some kind of "average" brain as the QEEG does. Rather it looks at relationships in your own brain and identifies those which are most likely to be related to the things you want to change. I also like it because instead of producing 20-30 pages of data, it focuses on views of the brain that are most likely to be related to your training goals. It is not designed to diagnose you. It is focused on identifying the training approaches which fit what you want.

NF providers who use QEEG's on all clients are in the minority. A number of others use the TLC for the reasons mentioned above. And many others don't look at the brain at all before deciding what to train.

Tell me how you would like to proceed."

Pete

On 10/12/07, neandergal <drmargoshesgmail> wrote:

Question from a Neuro-Newbie:If a prospective client called you and said, "I heard about this thingthing called a qEEG assessment. It seems to be what all these otherneurofeedback practitioners do. How come you're doing this other, "learning curve" kind of assessment instead?" what would you say?

-- Van Deusen

Windows Live Hotmail and Microsoft Office Outlook – together at last. Get it now!

[Guest guest]

Hello Francois,

You made this statement and I wonder if you would say more about it so I can understand what you meant."...if you use the ProComp Infiniti, you can now assess 6 channels at once (like F3F4, P3P4 and FzOz), which increase the validity of the relationships between these sites (like the following ratios: F4/F3, Fz/F3, Fz/F4, Fz/Oz, F3/P3, F4/P4)."

Thank you in advance.

Anita Remig, Ed.D.

Licensed Psychologist

To: braintrainer From: fdupont-phd@...Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 00:50:39 -0400Subject: RE: The Learning Curve's Assessment vs. The qEEG?

If I may add something here,

I was asked this question a few times and my answer was very similar to yours . I also added something like this:

“Some people, even very well known and respected in the field, do some form of a one site assessment, most of the time, and will send a more complex case for a full QEEG. I prefer to do a 12 or 18 site assessment for every client, as a routine”.

And, between us, how can we decide that a person is a simple case enough to not look at aspects like potential Hot Temporals; for example, in the case of presenting difficulties with attention? Because of a former “simple” diagnosis of ADD?

Neandergal, I don’t know what equipment you have, but if you use the ProComp Infiniti, you can now assess 6 channels at once (like F3F4, P3P4 and FzOz), which increase the validity of the relationships between these sites (like the following ratios: F4/F3, Fz/F3, Fz/F4, Fz/Oz, F3/P3, F4/P4).

Best regards,

François Dupont, Ph.D., C.Psych.

Psychologie clinique, de la santé et de la réadaptation

Thérapie, évaluation et consultation

Pratique privée http://www3.sympatico.ca/fdupont-phd

Clinical, health, and rehabilitation psychology

Therapy, assessment, and consultation

Private practice fdupont-phdsympatico (DOT) ca

Université/y d’/of Ottawa; Service de santé / Health Services

100-100 Marie-Curie, Ottawa, Ontario, K1N 6N5 Canada

Tél. : (61... poste/ext. 250 ; Fax :

De : braintrainer [mailto:braintrainer ] De la part de Van DeusenEnvoyé : 12 octobre 2007 13:36À : braintrainer Objet : Re: The Learning Curve's Assessment vs. The qEEG?

I would say,

"Of course, if you would like a QEEG I can order that for you. It will cost between $500 and $1500 compared to $X I charge to do the TLC.

I prefer the TLC because it does not compare you against some kind of "average" brain as the QEEG does. Rather it looks at relationships in your own brain and identifies those which are most likely to be related to the things you want to change. I also like it because instead of producing 20-30 pages of data, it focuses on views of the brain that are most likely to be related to your training goals. It is not designed to diagnose you. It is focused on identifying the training approaches which fit what you want.

NF providers who use QEEG's on all clients are in the minority. A number of others use the TLC for the reasons mentioned above. And many others don't look at the brain at all before deciding what to train.

Tell me how you would like to proceed."

Pete

On 10/12/07, neandergal <drmargoshesgmail> wrote:

Question from a Neuro-Newbie:If a prospective client called you and said, "I heard about this thingthing called a qEEG assessment. It seems to be what all these otherneurofeedback practitioners do. How come you're doing this other, "learning curve" kind of assessment instead?" what would you say?

-- Van Deusen

Windows Live Hotmail and Microsoft Office Outlook – together at last. Get it now!

[Guest guest]

Here's what I think Francois meant (also because I've just returned

from 's Milwaukee workshop where he said the same thing):

the Procomp Infiniti is an 8-channel machine. I guess 6 of the those 8

channels take EEG signals. Therefore, somebody (like me) who is using

that machine can plug six channels in and record EEG from six sites at

once, rather than the two channels/sites at once that the

BioExplorer people are using (is BioExplorer

software or hardware? I forget, since I don't own it).

Anyway, people who use a two-channel machine can only, by definition,

plug in two EEG channels at any moment, whereas people who are using a

machine with six EEGS channels can plug in six EEG channels at any

moment.

Now of course somebody with a two-channel machine is going to first

assess two sites, then move the electrodes and assess the next two

sites, etc., etc. until they have done the whole assessment, which

I guess is a 12-site assessment? (10? I forget. I'm a beginner), BUT

I believe the important point here is they are only going to be able

to compare two sites at a time that have been RECORDED SIMULTANEOUSLY,

right? they can (and will) certainly compare all the data that's been

collected from all the sites, but this will be by definition

sequential data except for each pair of sites that was recorded

together. Whereas the ProComp/Biograph people can compare their six

channels of simulataneous data to compute the ratios.

(1) Is this right, Francois? (or anybody else?)

(2) My Question: How much does it matter if there is a few minutes

between site recordings, if one of our basic constructs is that the

EEG of any person is basically stable?

(hoping my info isn't entirely incorrect)(now that I think of it, it

might be incorrect, because I can't remember how the use of a DIN

connector (splitter) affects the number of sites you can record at once.

>

>

>

>

> Question from a Neuro-Newbie:If a prospective client called you and

said, " I heard about this thingthing called a qEEG assessment. It

seems to be what all these otherneurofeedback practitioners do. How

come you're doing this other, " learning curve " kind of assessment

instead? " what would you say?

> -- Van Deusen

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> _________________________________________________________________

> Windows Live Hotmail and Microsoft Office Outlook – together at

last. Get it now.

>

http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/outlook/HA102225181033.aspx?pid=CL100626971033

>

[Guest guest]

If someone had access to the raw EEG data that was used to generate a

qEEG report, (19 site), could it also be used to generate a TLC

assessment, or would it depend on the equiptment used to record the

EEG?

> > >

> > > I would say,

> > >

> > > " Of course, if you would like a QEEG I can order that for you.

It will

> > cost

> > > between $500 and $1500 compared to $X I charge to do the TLC.

> >

> >

> >

>

>

>

> --

> Van Deusen

> pvdtlc@...

> http://www.brain-trainer.com

> 305/433-3160

> The Learning Curve, Inc.

>

[Guest guest]

If someone had access to the raw EEG data that was used to generate a

qEEG report, (19 site), could it also be used to generate a TLC

assessment, or would it depend on the equiptment used to record the

EEG?

> > >

> > > I would say,

> > >

> > > " Of course, if you would like a QEEG I can order that for you.

It will

> > cost

> > > between $500 and $1500 compared to $X I charge to do the TLC.

> >

> >

> >

>

>

>

> --

> Van Deusen

> pvdtlc@...

> http://www.brain-trainer.com

> 305/433-3160

> The Learning Curve, Inc.

>