Re: Re: Emotional health/discipline

[Guest guest]

Jin,

If the hyperness is a new thing that has just surfaced upon use of the SSRI,

I would definitely make that clear to Dr. Goldberg. Hyperness is one thing

he takes very seriously when it could be due to a med.

Some of the things you said sound so familiar... such as the recorder

comment. I remember that soon after starting SSRIs, I helped my son get his

backpack on for school and he immediately said " Mom, my lunch box isn't in

there! " . I was shocked... he had noticed the weight difference and deduced

that the lunch box was missing. This was something he NEVER would have done

before the SSRI.

I struggle with differentiating the behaviors just as you do. It helps me

to think of my son as being developmentally delayed as opposed to autistic.

I see him progressing through developmental phases that he missed before.

One skill has to be built before the next higher level skill can be

accomplished. I watch his siblings gaining new skills and compare the

phases they are going through. Yesterday my son came home from school and

he had cut his shirt with the scissors on purpose. I am still trying to

figure that one out. I thought " autistic behavior " until I remembered that

his VERY normal sister whacked a chunk out of her hair a few months ago at

age 5. Is my son exhibiting " autistic " symptoms or acting immature? I wish

I knew.

Here's one piece of advice Dr. Goldberg gave us... when the child makes a

little mistake, give him a talking to and be done with it. If he makes a

mistake that endangers himself or others, make his life miserable for a

little while. I think tend to err on the stricter side of that. The most

frustrating thing to me is that my son will make the same mistake again and

again. He will then apologize and say he forgot. I believe that most of

the time he really does forget. I was encouraged last week, though, to see

the beginnings of emerging from that problem. He has a really bad habit of

turning the TV on without permission. He did it one time too many last week

and I finally told him that he was not allowed in the room with the TV for

the rest of the week. I told him that if he went into the TV room even

once, he would not be allowed to watch Saturday morning cartoons. He was so

worried that he would forget and go into that room! He begged me to put a

baby gate up to help him remember to stay out. I refused because then the

other kids wouldn't be able to get into the room either. We finally

compromised by putting some boxes in the doorway to serve as a visual

barrier. I was amazed... he did not go into the room for the rest of the

week. I didn't think he could stop himself from the temptation, but he did.

I'm afraid I'm unfair sometimes when I discipline him for something that he

can't help, but I try to be very loving to him and hope that if he couldn't

help the behavior he'll forgive me. I guess I push him very hard. He wants

to do the right thing. Then again, sometimes I don't punish him at all.

One day he made a big mistake at school with a teacher who didn't know him.

She was waiting for me as I picked him up from school to tell me what he had

done. He knew he was in big trouble. The teacher explained the situation

(he had printed " underwear " on little pieces of paper and handed them out to

the children in the class). I immediately asked him why he had printed

underwear on the paper. He said that he was making a label for his

underwear drawer so he would remember which one it was (he loves labels and

lists). The teacher (she was a bit huffy) immediately cut in with " Yes, he

said that, but that doesn't explain why he gave those pieces of paper to the

other children. " It was obvious to me (and probably to most of you). He

was trying to make friends and thought that the other kids might like labels

for their drawers, too. I explained to him that kids don't want you to

think about their underwear because that's very personal and embarrassing to

them. I will never forget seeing the tears well up in his eyes. He felt so

terrible. The teacher had a look of utter shock and regret on her face and

said she never would have figured that out. I didn't punish my son at all.

His humiliation was more than punishment enough.

I guess we all just have to hang in there. Take care, Jin.

Caroline

> On 9/27/03 12:02 AM, " jinyang061629 " <yanglou@...> wrote:

> Caroline,

>

> Your post actually touches another issue I am having hard time get my

> hand on with -- undisciplined behavior vs. autistic behavior.

>

> has always been center of attention because his difficulty, even

> his 5 year old sister will tell him, concentrate on your, home

> work, eat your food, and etc. He is surely babied, and

> undisciplined, although he is a very good nature kid. But he has been

> doing quite well to me this school year compare to before. This

> morning he even tells me that he needs to bring his recorder to

> school when I wake him up. He never tells me what he supposes to

> bring to school before. He is responsive, aware of things going on

> around him, and seems just fine to me when he is out of school.

>

> However, in school, his teachers tell me can be zoning, Spacey,

> Hyper: behave well, unruly, talkative, good attention, shout out

> without waiting for turns, confrontational, full of energy and

> running in circles, or very tired during the day, there is not

> pattern to it. When he has a work he prefer not to do, he went to

> drawing, or doodling, playing objects, or reading.

>

> Dr. G. thinks these are behavior issues, I agree with him, but

> wondering to what degree they are behavior issues, to what degree

> they are autistic behaviors.

>

> I wander if you and others encounter similar issues? What do you do

> to help them learn the skill of discipline at later age? How hard

> should I push him?

>

> Thanks

>

> Jin

[Guest guest]

Hey Jin -

Yes, a lot of this is behavior issues. The problem

is, however, that despite they are behavior issues,

this does not mean that he can control them,

especially right now. You can steadily work towards

guiding him in the direction of control, but try not

to do this in a manner that will be high pressure and

very stressful.

As a child, I had great difficulty with these things.

I still do even as an adult. My mom tried very hard

to push me, frequently lost her cool and screamed at

me over these things. I was spanked a great deal, I

was lectured for hours, I was followed around and

watched and corrected every moment. It never helped,

it only stressed me out to the point that by the time

I was a teenager I couldn't even eat. I have every

desire to be self-disciplined, controlled, consistent,

etc, I know many ways of how I could theoretically

acheive this, but there are spells where I just cannot

do it. Teaching him how to control impulses, teaching

him how to release that pent up energy and making

consistent opportunities to do so available to him,

but accepting when he can't will go a long ways. It

takes time, so be easy on him and consistent.

Punishment will not help in this area - at all. It

can be hard to tell the difference between impulse and

blatant disregard.

That said, it is so hard NOT to get harsh. My son is

currently driving my psychotic with his behavior

(normal behavior that I should be thrilled about), and

I am having a hard time visualizing a time where he is

actually going to be better behaved. But 8 months ago

I could not have imagined this particular problem

coming so soon. I know he will probably improve

faster than I can imagine, but my own inconsistentcy

in how I try to discipline or manage him is going to

take a lot of work on my part - considering I am just

as impulsive as he is. I not only have to train him,

I have to train myself as well. I'm really in for it!

I recommed a good book called Playful Parenting by

Lawrence Cohen PhD. It won't really give any step by

step instructions on these issues, but gives excellent

advice in managing the emotional health of your child

while working on raising him, and the advice in this

book is excellent. It has already helped me (and my

husband especially) more than I could describe in some

problems we had started having with Garrett as he

began " waking up " , becoming more independent (before I

was ready!), and suddenly having to deal with an

onslaught of natural emotions that were previously

suppressed by his illness. Neuro-typical kids have

much more opportunity to develop control over their

emotions than our kids have when they start waking up.

This book just really gave great advice and I wish

every parent would read it. In one week we eliminated

struggles we had been having for months, just by using

a couple of pieces of advice. This is a little

off-topic from what your questions are though - I'm

sorry!. But the suggestions for interactions this

book gives would most likely be very useful in getting

through to your son better without causing stress on

him that would cause him to block out your efforts.

Last comment and I'll hush. You said there is no rhym

or reason. Dr G says they're behavioral, but I

strongly feel that even behavioral issues are still

often directly affected by the current state of the

body, and many behavioral issues go away on their own

as the body improves. All the best efforts in the

world sometimes did not improve Garrett's issues until

suddenly his body would improve, he would make a

cognitive advance, and the behavior issue would

abruptly end. Hang in there. Try to be consistent

and very fair, try to choose consistency over

punishment. Accept that it will still be hard for him

for a while. Make expectations and requirements of

him (this is where we tend to go wrong), but when they

are not met, that still isn't cause for discipline.

They really do want to meet our expectations, and we

need to give them the support and the trusting

atmosphere to help them reach those expectations. I

think sometimes we just don't expect enough of Garrett

- oh I KNOW we don't - especially after seeing what

preschool expects of him and how he has shocked me in

meeting those expectations. Our kids are really smart

and capable!

Best of luck. Sorry to ramble.

> However, in school, his teachers tell me can be

> zoning, Spacey,

> Hyper: behave well, unruly, talkative, good

> attention, shout out

> without waiting for turns, confrontational, full of

> energy and

> running in circles, or very tired during the day,

> there is not

> pattern to it. When he has a work he prefer not to

> do, he went to

> drawing, or doodling, playing objects, or reading.

>

> Dr. G. thinks these are behavior issues, I agree

> with him, but

> wondering to what degree they are behavior issues,

> to what degree

> they are autistic behaviors.

>

> I wander if you and others encounter similar issues?

> What do you do

> to help them learn the skill of discipline at later

> age? How hard

> should I push him?

>

> Thanks

>

> Jin

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 9/28/03 4:38:59 PM, thecolemans4@... writes:

<< It

takes time, so be easy on him and consistent.

Punishment will not help in this area - at all. >>

Yes. With my Asperger's kid I've found Jane Nelsen's " Positive Discipline " to

be the answer. Firm and respectful. Any kind of harshness does not work *at

all...

Nell

[Guest guest]

-

I'm interested in how old Garrett is and how long ago you began the

protocol.

Thanks.

ette

wrote:

> Hey Jin -

>

> Yes, a lot of this is behavior issues. The problem

> is, however, that despite they are behavior issues,

> this does not mean that he can control them,

> especially right now. You can steadily work towards

> guiding him in the direction of control, but try not

> to do this in a manner that will be high pressure and

> very stressful.

>

> As a child, I had great difficulty with these things.

> I still do even as an adult. My mom tried very hard

> to push me, frequently lost her cool and screamed at

> me over these things. I was spanked a great deal, I

> was lectured for hours, I was followed around and

> watched and corrected every moment. It never helped,

> it only stressed me out to the point that by the time

> I was a teenager I couldn't even eat. I have every

> desire to be self-disciplined, controlled, consistent,

> etc, I know many ways of how I could theoretically

> acheive this, but there are spells where I just cannot

> do it. Teaching him how to control impulses, teaching

> him how to release that pent up energy and making

> consistent opportunities to do so available to him,

> but accepting when he can't will go a long ways. It

> takes time, so be easy on him and consistent.

> Punishment will not help in this area - at all. It

> can be hard to tell the difference between impulse and

> blatant disregard.

>

> That said, it is so hard NOT to get harsh. My son is

> currently driving my psychotic with his behavior

> (normal behavior that I should be thrilled about), and

> I am having a hard time visualizing a time where he is

> actually going to be better behaved. But 8 months ago

> I could not have imagined this particular problem

> coming so soon. I know he will probably improve

> faster than I can imagine, but my own inconsistentcy

> in how I try to discipline or manage him is going to

> take a lot of work on my part - considering I am just

> as impulsive as he is. I not only have to train him,

> I have to train myself as well. I'm really in for it!

>

>

> I recommed a good book called Playful Parenting by

> Lawrence Cohen PhD. It won't really give any step by

> step instructions on these issues, but gives excellent

> advice in managing the emotional health of your child

> while working on raising him, and the advice in this

> book is excellent. It has already helped me (and my

> husband especially) more than I could describe in some

> problems we had started having with Garrett as he

> began " waking up " , becoming more independent (before I

> was ready!), and suddenly having to deal with an

> onslaught of natural emotions that were previously

> suppressed by his illness. Neuro-typical kids have

> much more opportunity to develop control over their

> emotions than our kids have when they start waking up.

> This book just really gave great advice and I wish

> every parent would read it. In one week we eliminated

> struggles we had been having for months, just by using

> a couple of pieces of advice. This is a little

> off-topic from what your questions are though - I'm

> sorry!. But the suggestions for interactions this

> book gives would most likely be very useful in getting

> through to your son better without causing stress on

> him that would cause him to block out your efforts.

>

> Last comment and I'll hush. You said there is no rhym

> or reason. Dr G says they're behavioral, but I

> strongly feel that even behavioral issues are still

> often directly affected by the current state of the

> body, and many behavioral issues go away on their own

> as the body improves. All the best efforts in the

> world sometimes did not improve Garrett's issues until

> suddenly his body would improve, he would make a

> cognitive advance, and the behavior issue would

> abruptly end. Hang in there. Try to be consistent

> and very fair, try to choose consistency over

> punishment. Accept that it will still be hard for him

> for a while. Make expectations and requirements of

> him (this is where we tend to go wrong), but when they

> are not met, that still isn't cause for discipline.

> They really do want to meet our expectations, and we

> need to give them the support and the trusting

> atmosphere to help them reach those expectations. I

> think sometimes we just don't expect enough of Garrett

> - oh I KNOW we don't - especially after seeing what

> preschool expects of him and how he has shocked me in

> meeting those expectations. Our kids are really smart

> and capable!

>

> Best of luck. Sorry to ramble.

>

>

>

> Responsibility for the content of this message lies strictly with

> the original author, and is not necessarily endorsed by or the

> opinion of the Research Institute.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi ette -

Garrett turned 4 in August. We began the protocol

January 30th of this year. Prior to that, we had done

the GFCF diet from August until seeing Dr G, when we

went to his diet. Back in Nov 2002, we had a 10-day

course of Diflucan, which, like removing dairy, had

also brought major improvments - too many to list, but

the biggest one being that he dropped all echolalia

(the only way he communicated) and began normal albeit

delayed speech. He would have met all criteria for

autism at age 2, but after starting the diet he

improved enough to be PDD. Now, he would not get that

label.

He no longer has any obvious developmental delays,

except potty training, which may have succeeded this

week - he is going all by himself this week with only

one accident (WOW!). He just started dressing and

undressing himself in the last couple of weeks. His

social skills are just now blossoming also in the last

couple of weeks - met up w/ a boy last night and

played over an hour, laughing, smiling, talking,

saying " Watch this! " and just having a wonderful time.

He doesn't really yet ask 'why' questions about

things some kids his age would just yet, but he is

catching up so fast I know it is coming and am not

worried. He's getting creative and pretending - he

just has to catch up there too since he used to not

observe much around him to give him any ideas. He's

all into making us laugh, being very affectionate (for

2 years I could not hug him or kiss him or hardly

touch him at all).

On the other end, he is a little monster lately. He

ignores it when I tell him no, throws a fit about

being made to stop, yells at me all the time, demands

and demands... But it's the yelling that is driving

me nuts. I had succeeded for a while in getting that

calmed down ... need to work on it some more. A lot

of these behaviors are exacerbated by how I've handled

problems with him in the past, but some are just him

feeling out of sorts. During the worst times, his

eyes have a spaced out distant look with dilated

pupils, so I know it's not all just him. My

less-than-effective discipline history does increase

the behaviors, as does stress-levels in the home, but

so does how he feels.

Too much info!

--- ette Cormier <paulette.cormierale@...> wrote:

> -

> I'm interested in how old Garrett is and how long

> ago you began the

> protocol.

> Thanks.

> ette

//message thread truncated//

Responsibility for the content of this message lies strictly with

the original author, and is not necessarily endorsed by or the

opinion of the Research Institute.

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