Re: Labtests going the wrong way - help!

December 6, 2004

I wish you would quit telling people they cannot overdose on three grains. You do not know that person's total medical condition. There could be an undetected heart condition. There could be incipient diabetes. Too much T3 could push that person into full-blown diabetes. And thyroid hormone cannot correct adrenal insufficiency if the adrenals are already shot to hell.

A really good, experienced thyroid doc may have an idea of a rather high target dose of thyroid for a particular person. But he also wants to see some lab work, some basal temps, and examine and interview the person sitting in front of him before making that decision. And then he will approach that person's optimal dose rather cautiously.

You and I are not doctors. Any suggestions we make are just that: suggestions, not authoritative advice. I do not want to be practicing medicine without a license. I would be especially cautious about advising those who are self-medicating. There could be legal consequences for all of the moderators on this site, as well as for the person giving advice that results in harm to any person.

jan lkwetter wrote:

What may be happening is that you are getting some adrenal issues interfering. As the dose of thyroid replacement drops below what the body needs, greater demand is put on the adrenal glands to produce adrenalin, cortisol and other adrenal hormones to try and create more energy for the body when thyroid levels are insufficient. Adrenal hormones work to increase conversion of T4 to T3, to increase glucose in the blood, increase the energy production in the cells, and to deal with increased inflammation in hypothyroidism. But, if thyroid is too low for some time, the downside is that the adrenals become weak. Circulating thyroid hormone controls the size and output of the adrenal gland. In long standing undertreatment, the adrenals can become quite weak. They do not recover very quickly once thyroid levels are

increased and can take from 4 months to two years to rebuild their strength and size. Once the adrenals become weak, then they are not able to produce sufficient hormones to increase energy in low thyroid situations. Once cortisol and other adrenal hormones become too low, then thyroid hormone cannot be used and will build up in the blood. The result is that you will get high test results when in fact your tissues are being starved.So, what may be happening is that by lowering your thyroid dose, you are increasing the demands on the adrenals and they are not able to meet them, therefore what thyroid you do have is not being used efficiently and is staying in the blood. Cells will become resistant to T3 when adrenal output is too low. So, it is common for T4 to be high with respect to T4 when there is sufficient adrenal fatigue.For your information, you cannot overdose on 3 grains. The healthy thyroid produces about

4-1/2 to 5 grains a day. You cannot overdose untill you approach the level that a healthy thyroid makes. This is because the brain senses what you are taking a drops production of your own thyroid by the amount of your dose. So, if you take 3 grains, then your thyroid will drop production to 1-1/2 to 2 grains to get the total to 4-1/2 to 5 grains. From the late 1800s up untill around 1975, when they began to develop all these sensitive tests, the average thyroid replacement dose was 3 to 5 grains. Doses have droped to 1/3 of what they were for well over 50 years prior to the TSH test and other sensitive tests in the mid 1970s.In reality, the majority of people do not feel well untill they get to 3 grains and over. the reason for this has to do with the brain being imperfect at detecting what you are taking and adjusting your thyroid's production correctly. Taking pills in doses smaller than 3 grains twice a day, tends to

shut down the pituitary so that it does not tell your thyroid to make enough hormone to get your total up to 4-1/2 to 5 grains or whatever you need. To read more on this go to this page and read down to the reply: http://thyroid.about.com/library/derry/bl11.htmThe truth is, that you cannot overdose on 3 grains. It is not additive on top of what your thryoid makes. Any time the dose is less than what your body needs, your own thyroid is going to adjust down by at least that much. So, getting results that are higher after dropping your dose is almost always an issue with the body being unable to use thyroid hormone. One of the most common causes is low adrenal hormone levels. But, other health issues can also result in the build up of thyroid in the blood. Some are: Low iron stores, low protien stores, poor nutrition, dieting,

low blood sugar caused by other things, stress, and illness. Hypothyroidism itself causes the above problems. Hypothyroidism impairs glucose handling, iron, vitamin, protien and nutrient uptake.Tish__________________________________________________

December 6, 2004

I wish you would quit telling people they cannot overdose on three grains. You do not know that person's total medical condition. There could be an undetected heart condition. There could be incipient diabetes. Too much T3 could push that person into full-blown diabetes. And thyroid hormone cannot correct adrenal insufficiency if the adrenals are already shot to hell.

A really good, experienced thyroid doc may have an idea of a rather high target dose of thyroid for a particular person. But he also wants to see some lab work, some basal temps, and examine and interview the person sitting in front of him before making that decision. And then he will approach that person's optimal dose rather cautiously.

You and I are not doctors. Any suggestions we make are just that: suggestions, not authoritative advice. I do not want to be practicing medicine without a license. I would be especially cautious about advising those who are self-medicating. There could be legal consequences for all of the moderators on this site, as well as for the person giving advice that results in harm to any person.

jan lkwetter wrote:

What may be happening is that you are getting some adrenal issues interfering. As the dose of thyroid replacement drops below what the body needs, greater demand is put on the adrenal glands to produce adrenalin, cortisol and other adrenal hormones to try and create more energy for the body when thyroid levels are insufficient. Adrenal hormones work to increase conversion of T4 to T3, to increase glucose in the blood, increase the energy production in the cells, and to deal with increased inflammation in hypothyroidism. But, if thyroid is too low for some time, the downside is that the adrenals become weak. Circulating thyroid hormone controls the size and output of the adrenal gland. In long standing undertreatment, the adrenals can become quite weak. They do not recover very quickly once thyroid levels are

increased and can take from 4 months to two years to rebuild their strength and size. Once the adrenals become weak, then they are not able to produce sufficient hormones to increase energy in low thyroid situations. Once cortisol and other adrenal hormones become too low, then thyroid hormone cannot be used and will build up in the blood. The result is that you will get high test results when in fact your tissues are being starved.So, what may be happening is that by lowering your thyroid dose, you are increasing the demands on the adrenals and they are not able to meet them, therefore what thyroid you do have is not being used efficiently and is staying in the blood. Cells will become resistant to T3 when adrenal output is too low. So, it is common for T4 to be high with respect to T4 when there is sufficient adrenal fatigue.For your information, you cannot overdose on 3 grains. The healthy thyroid produces about

4-1/2 to 5 grains a day. You cannot overdose untill you approach the level that a healthy thyroid makes. This is because the brain senses what you are taking a drops production of your own thyroid by the amount of your dose. So, if you take 3 grains, then your thyroid will drop production to 1-1/2 to 2 grains to get the total to 4-1/2 to 5 grains. From the late 1800s up untill around 1975, when they began to develop all these sensitive tests, the average thyroid replacement dose was 3 to 5 grains. Doses have droped to 1/3 of what they were for well over 50 years prior to the TSH test and other sensitive tests in the mid 1970s.In reality, the majority of people do not feel well untill they get to 3 grains and over. the reason for this has to do with the brain being imperfect at detecting what you are taking and adjusting your thyroid's production correctly. Taking pills in doses smaller than 3 grains twice a day, tends to

shut down the pituitary so that it does not tell your thyroid to make enough hormone to get your total up to 4-1/2 to 5 grains or whatever you need. To read more on this go to this page and read down to the reply: http://thyroid.about.com/library/derry/bl11.htmThe truth is, that you cannot overdose on 3 grains. It is not additive on top of what your thryoid makes. Any time the dose is less than what your body needs, your own thyroid is going to adjust down by at least that much. So, getting results that are higher after dropping your dose is almost always an issue with the body being unable to use thyroid hormone. One of the most common causes is low adrenal hormone levels. But, other health issues can also result in the build up of thyroid in the blood. Some are: Low iron stores, low protien stores, poor nutrition, dieting,

low blood sugar caused by other things, stress, and illness. Hypothyroidism itself causes the above problems. Hypothyroidism impairs glucose handling, iron, vitamin, protien and nutrient uptake.Tish__________________________________________________

December 7, 2004

Thanks, Tish.

I did have an AM Cortisol test run and it came back in the low normal

range. But I really don't want to self-treat anything other than the

thyroid. If I am having problems with adrenals, do you think they

will slowly recover? I am hoping that is the case.

I was overdosed on thyroid many years ago when I was in my 20's. I

don't know what dose I was on at the time, but I don't think I have

ever been over 3 grains. I spent most of my adult life on 2 grains

of thyrolar, which is roughly equivalent to armour, and was very

healthy. I didn't really start doing my research until a couple of

years ago when I needed a dosage change. I really wish they had

never invented that TSH test because it has totally messed up my

relationship with all doctors.

Thanks for your input. I enjoyed reading the article and it made a

lot of sense.

Jill

>

> I also want to add here that the goal of therapy is to feel good

and

> have a productive life, not to have good lab numbers. So, it does

> not matter about the tests, but rather " How do you feel? " It is not

> dangerous to adjust your dose to where you need it. There is well

> over 50 years of treatment by patient needs to prove this out. All

> the way from the late 1800s up to around the mid 70's doses were

> adjusted by how the patient felt. You cannot find one study on

> osteoporosis and Armour or natural thyroid. I have been looking for

> a long time and have not yet found one. It is rarely if ever

> mentioned in old texts, which often say a well treated thyroid

> patient has a long and healthy life to look foreward to. It didn't

> start showing up until Synthroid came on the scene. Doctors use

this

> ruse to keep patients under their control with fear.

>

> http://www.fudgedesign.co.uk/tuk/treat/glandulars.htm

>

> Tish

December 7, 2004