Guest guest Posted September 22, 2004 Report Share Posted September 22, 2004 My Dr is trying to pull the same excuse on me about the suppressed TSH and bone loss. I have osteopenia, and was shown information about being over medicated and bone loss. Where can I go to get information that would prove otherwise? LYNN Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 22, 2004 Report Share Posted September 22, 2004 My Dr is trying to pull the same excuse on me about the suppressed TSH and bone loss. I have osteopenia, and was shown information about being over medicated and bone loss. Where can I go to get information that would prove otherwise? LYNN Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 22, 2004 Report Share Posted September 22, 2004 You low TSH is due to pituitary dysfunction. I know this because your Armour dose cannot possibly be making you hyper. According to doctor Young in " Thyroid Guardian of Health " The healthy thyroid makes 4-1/2 to 5 grains of Armour a day and anything you take under that cannot make you hyper unless you have adrenal fatigue. This is because the human thryoid drops production by however much you are taking below 4-1/2 to 5 grains to keep blood levels of thyroid within proper range or under 4-1/2 to 5 grains. About 40% of all thyroid patients have pituitary dysfunction. This make the TSH test worthless as a determanent of thryoid status. A healthy person can take thyroid and not have any changes in their levels of hormones as long as the dose is under 4-1/2 to 5 grains. This new doc is just an idiot in my opinion. Tish Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 22, 2004 Report Share Posted September 22, 2004 You low TSH is due to pituitary dysfunction. I know this because your Armour dose cannot possibly be making you hyper. According to doctor Young in " Thyroid Guardian of Health " The healthy thyroid makes 4-1/2 to 5 grains of Armour a day and anything you take under that cannot make you hyper unless you have adrenal fatigue. This is because the human thryoid drops production by however much you are taking below 4-1/2 to 5 grains to keep blood levels of thyroid within proper range or under 4-1/2 to 5 grains. About 40% of all thyroid patients have pituitary dysfunction. This make the TSH test worthless as a determanent of thryoid status. A healthy person can take thyroid and not have any changes in their levels of hormones as long as the dose is under 4-1/2 to 5 grains. This new doc is just an idiot in my opinion. Tish Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 22, 2004 Report Share Posted September 22, 2004 In treatment with Armour, it was found that bones become a little thinner but stornger. Dr. Young in " Thyroid Guardian of Health " has written that hypothryoids have thick porous bones and that when they go on thyroid therapy, their bones thin but become stronger. It takes 6 to 8 months on Armour. Tish Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 22, 2004 Report Share Posted September 22, 2004 In treatment with Armour, it was found that bones become a little thinner but stornger. Dr. Young in " Thyroid Guardian of Health " has written that hypothryoids have thick porous bones and that when they go on thyroid therapy, their bones thin but become stronger. It takes 6 to 8 months on Armour. Tish Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 22, 2004 Report Share Posted September 22, 2004 So, in essence, the healthy human thyroid is supposed to produce between 4-1/2 to 5 grains of thyroid hormone per day? My brain fog is keeping me from fully comprehending, I believe. Is that why I am sleeping at my computer during the day with my replacement dosage of 90mg Armour, now with an added 25mg Unithroid for the last 6 weeks? Cathryn > You low TSH is due to pituitary dysfunction. I know this because > your Armour dose cannot possibly be making you hyper. According to > doctor Young in " Thyroid Guardian of Health " The healthy > thyroid makes 4-1/2 to 5 grains of Armour a day and anything you > take under that cannot make you hyper unless you have adrenal > fatigue. This is because the human thryoid drops production by > however much you are taking below 4-1/2 to 5 grains to keep blood > levels of thyroid within proper range or under 4-1/2 to 5 grains. > About 40% of all thyroid patients have pituitary dysfunction. This > make the TSH test worthless as a determanent of thryoid status. A > healthy person can take thyroid and not have any changes in their > levels of hormones as long as the dose is under 4-1/2 to 5 grains. > > This new doc is just an idiot in my opinion. > > Tish Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 22, 2004 Report Share Posted September 22, 2004 So, in essence, the healthy human thyroid is supposed to produce between 4-1/2 to 5 grains of thyroid hormone per day? My brain fog is keeping me from fully comprehending, I believe. Is that why I am sleeping at my computer during the day with my replacement dosage of 90mg Armour, now with an added 25mg Unithroid for the last 6 weeks? Cathryn > You low TSH is due to pituitary dysfunction. I know this because > your Armour dose cannot possibly be making you hyper. According to > doctor Young in " Thyroid Guardian of Health " The healthy > thyroid makes 4-1/2 to 5 grains of Armour a day and anything you > take under that cannot make you hyper unless you have adrenal > fatigue. This is because the human thryoid drops production by > however much you are taking below 4-1/2 to 5 grains to keep blood > levels of thyroid within proper range or under 4-1/2 to 5 grains. > About 40% of all thyroid patients have pituitary dysfunction. This > make the TSH test worthless as a determanent of thryoid status. A > healthy person can take thyroid and not have any changes in their > levels of hormones as long as the dose is under 4-1/2 to 5 grains. > > This new doc is just an idiot in my opinion. > > Tish Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 22, 2004 Report Share Posted September 22, 2004 90mg Armour, now with an added 25mg Unithroid for the last 6 weeks? > > Cathryn ___________________ My pituitary was not even registering hypothryoidism on the TSH test when I was literally falling apart from hypothryoidism. Finally a doc tested free T3 and Free T4 and I didn't have much T4 at all. I suffered years with them telling me I was fine by looking at my TSH test only. Dr. Derry has written that most thyroid patients feel better on at least 3 grains. The average thyroid dose before the TSH test was 3 to 5 grains a day. I am on 3-1/2. When I was on 2 grains, I was pretty much hampered and couldn't do much. I got bursitis in my feet and could hardly wear shoes. I had to take a nap around noon and lay down often from fatigue. All went away when I got to 3 grains. This is probably because of pituitary dysfunction, where the pituitary is not putting out enough TSH to make the thyroid make up enough hormone on top of your medicine to equal something healthy. It's just my opinion, but I think there are very few hypos with good working pituitaries who can manage on low doses of thyroid. Being hypo for a long time seems to mess it up and make it less responsive. If you would like to read Derry's article on this topic, it is at this link http://thyroid.about.com/library/derry/bl11.htm He also has an excellent article on why the TSH test is not particularly useful. I decided to look into the dose issue and found that Derry was right. Most thyroid doses prior to the TSH test were considerably higher. Synthroid doses were also higher, usually between 300 and 400 mcg. Tish Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 22, 2004 Report Share Posted September 22, 2004 My statement was probably a little confusing to you without my background. BTW, had blood drawn for labs today, so will know where I stand soon. Even I may be having adrenal issues. I have no thyroid, had a complete thyroidectomy in '98, so it seems hardly likely that I can be functioning properly on such a low replacement dosage. Cathryn > 90mg Armour, now with an added 25mg Unithroid for the last 6 weeks? > > > > Cathryn > ___________________ > > My pituitary was not even registering hypothryoidism on the TSH test > when I was literally falling apart from hypothryoidism. Finally a > doc tested free T3 and Free T4 and I didn't have much T4 at all. I > suffered years with them telling me I was fine by looking at my TSH > test only. > > Dr. Derry has written that most thyroid patients feel better > on at least 3 grains. The average thyroid dose before the TSH test > was 3 to 5 grains a day. I am on 3-1/2. When I was on 2 grains, I > was pretty much hampered and couldn't do much. I got bursitis in my > feet and could hardly wear shoes. I had to take a nap around noon > and lay down often from fatigue. All went away when I got to 3 > grains. This is probably because of pituitary dysfunction, where the > pituitary is not putting out enough TSH to make the thyroid make up > enough hormone on top of your medicine to equal something healthy. > It's just my opinion, but I think there are very few hypos with good > working pituitaries who can manage on low doses of thyroid. Being > hypo for a long time seems to mess it up and make it less responsive. > > If you would like to read Derry's article on this topic, it is at > this link http://thyroid.about.com/library/derry/bl11.htm > > He also has an excellent article on why the TSH test is not > particularly useful. > > I decided to look into the dose issue and found that Derry was > right. Most thyroid doses prior to the TSH test were considerably > higher. Synthroid doses were also higher, usually between 300 and > 400 mcg. > > Tish Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 22, 2004 Report Share Posted September 22, 2004 My statement was probably a little confusing to you without my background. BTW, had blood drawn for labs today, so will know where I stand soon. Even I may be having adrenal issues. I have no thyroid, had a complete thyroidectomy in '98, so it seems hardly likely that I can be functioning properly on such a low replacement dosage. Cathryn > 90mg Armour, now with an added 25mg Unithroid for the last 6 weeks? > > > > Cathryn > ___________________ > > My pituitary was not even registering hypothryoidism on the TSH test > when I was literally falling apart from hypothryoidism. Finally a > doc tested free T3 and Free T4 and I didn't have much T4 at all. I > suffered years with them telling me I was fine by looking at my TSH > test only. > > Dr. Derry has written that most thyroid patients feel better > on at least 3 grains. The average thyroid dose before the TSH test > was 3 to 5 grains a day. I am on 3-1/2. When I was on 2 grains, I > was pretty much hampered and couldn't do much. I got bursitis in my > feet and could hardly wear shoes. I had to take a nap around noon > and lay down often from fatigue. All went away when I got to 3 > grains. This is probably because of pituitary dysfunction, where the > pituitary is not putting out enough TSH to make the thyroid make up > enough hormone on top of your medicine to equal something healthy. > It's just my opinion, but I think there are very few hypos with good > working pituitaries who can manage on low doses of thyroid. Being > hypo for a long time seems to mess it up and make it less responsive. > > If you would like to read Derry's article on this topic, it is at > this link http://thyroid.about.com/library/derry/bl11.htm > > He also has an excellent article on why the TSH test is not > particularly useful. > > I decided to look into the dose issue and found that Derry was > right. Most thyroid doses prior to the TSH test were considerably > higher. Synthroid doses were also higher, usually between 300 and > 400 mcg. > > Tish Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 23, 2004 Report Share Posted September 23, 2004 I second that. This story doesn't bode well. Even my mostly good Endocrinologist said that the studies involving osteo issues were full of flaws and poor science. Courtenay. This new doc is just an idiot in my opinion. Tish Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 23, 2004 Report Share Posted September 23, 2004 I second that. This story doesn't bode well. Even my mostly good Endocrinologist said that the studies involving osteo issues were full of flaws and poor science. Courtenay. This new doc is just an idiot in my opinion. Tish Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 23, 2004 Report Share Posted September 23, 2004 What was the deal about taking Armour under the tongue and it's calcium component? Best-- Courtenay. In treatment with Armour, it was found that bones become a little thinner but stornger. Dr. Young in " Thyroid Guardian of Health " has written that hypothryoids have thick porous bones and that when they go on thyroid therapy, their bones thin but become stronger. It takes 6 to 8 months on Armour. Tish Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 23, 2004 Report Share Posted September 23, 2004 What was the deal about taking Armour under the tongue and it's calcium component? Best-- Courtenay. In treatment with Armour, it was found that bones become a little thinner but stornger. Dr. Young in " Thyroid Guardian of Health " has written that hypothryoids have thick porous bones and that when they go on thyroid therapy, their bones thin but become stronger. It takes 6 to 8 months on Armour. Tish Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 23, 2004 Report Share Posted September 23, 2004 This is so sublime and wonderful. What a perfect way to say it in a nuthell. Tish _________________ > TSH worship is a hideous religion that demands human sacrifice, usually a fat, tired, depressed, middle-aged hypothyroid woman. The unwitting victim is subjected to a slow and painful death by the repeated reduction of thyroid meds in order to satisfy the lust of the TSH god. . . . .Priests of the TSH cult take a vow of misogyny, in order to better ignore the cries, the pleas, the symptoms of their hapless victims. > > There are those among us who wish that such docs be subjected to total thyroidectomy without anesthesia, then offered 25 mcg of Expensivethroid and all the antidepressants, NSAIDs, statins, and Milk of Magnesia they can carry home. . . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 23, 2004 Report Share Posted September 23, 2004 > What was the deal about taking Armour under the tongue and it's > calcium component? > > Best-- > > Courtenay. __________________________ I'm not sure where the science is behind this because I have not checked it out, but supposedly if you dissolve the Armour under your tongue, the calcitonin is less likely to be destroyed by strong stomach acids and digestive enzymes. I know this applies to thyroid hormone. I have read old papers where this is an effective way to get more thyroid taken up, especially if the patient has trouble with pill binders. So it is perfectly logical that it works for calcitonin, too. Synthroid and Levoxyl on the other hand cannot work untill the Sodium on it is removed by stomach acid. Synthroid and Levoxyl both have sodium molecules attached to them done in order for the company to get a patent. It does not become real thyroid hormone untill the sodium is removed by stomach acid. This is why Synthroid and Levoxyl are a little less well taken up than Armour. Tish Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 24, 2004 Report Share Posted September 24, 2004 > Also, do you know the scientific reason why the calcium studies > regarding thyroid issues have been so skewed? Or am I mistaken here? > > Best-- > > Courtenay. ___________________ I've tried to find an osteoporosis study done with Armour and have not been able to. The only thing I can think is that it was never a significant problem. It is very rarely ever mentioned in any old texts and papers. All osteoporosis studies done with thyroid are done with Synthroid. I think it is because of several things. When they first started using Synthroid, they found that patients required high doses to feel good, usually between 300 and 400 mcg. I thin that this is when they started to see some cases of osteoporosis. Today, they treat at much lower doses and I think they see more osteoporosis because patients are undertreated, which disturbs adrenal function. When the adrenals are not working right, calcium is leached from the bones as the body's way to try and compensate for the consequences of low adrenal output. The other more cynical possibility that we hear more about it is because it can be used to prevent patients from taking control of their treatment and is a good fear generator. Barry Durrant Peatfield has written that he thinks this is used as a tool for doctors to get control of patients. Tish Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 24, 2004 Report Share Posted September 24, 2004 > Also, do you know the scientific reason why the calcium studies > regarding thyroid issues have been so skewed? Or am I mistaken here? > > Best-- > > Courtenay. ___________________ I've tried to find an osteoporosis study done with Armour and have not been able to. The only thing I can think is that it was never a significant problem. It is very rarely ever mentioned in any old texts and papers. All osteoporosis studies done with thyroid are done with Synthroid. I think it is because of several things. When they first started using Synthroid, they found that patients required high doses to feel good, usually between 300 and 400 mcg. I thin that this is when they started to see some cases of osteoporosis. Today, they treat at much lower doses and I think they see more osteoporosis because patients are undertreated, which disturbs adrenal function. When the adrenals are not working right, calcium is leached from the bones as the body's way to try and compensate for the consequences of low adrenal output. The other more cynical possibility that we hear more about it is because it can be used to prevent patients from taking control of their treatment and is a good fear generator. Barry Durrant Peatfield has written that he thinks this is used as a tool for doctors to get control of patients. Tish Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 24, 2004 Report Share Posted September 24, 2004 > Also, do you know the scientific reason why the calcium studies > regarding thyroid issues have been so skewed? Or am I mistaken here? > > Best-- > > Courtenay. ___________________ I've tried to find an osteoporosis study done with Armour and have not been able to. The only thing I can think is that it was never a significant problem. It is very rarely ever mentioned in any old texts and papers. All osteoporosis studies done with thyroid are done with Synthroid. I think it is because of several things. When they first started using Synthroid, they found that patients required high doses to feel good, usually between 300 and 400 mcg. I thin that this is when they started to see some cases of osteoporosis. Today, they treat at much lower doses and I think they see more osteoporosis because patients are undertreated, which disturbs adrenal function. When the adrenals are not working right, calcium is leached from the bones as the body's way to try and compensate for the consequences of low adrenal output. The other more cynical possibility that we hear more about it is because it can be used to prevent patients from taking control of their treatment and is a good fear generator. Barry Durrant Peatfield has written that he thinks this is used as a tool for doctors to get control of patients. Tish Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 24, 2004 Report Share Posted September 24, 2004 > Is full replacement done according to body weight? > > Best-- > > Courtenay. _____________________ Full replacement should be done according to your individual needs. People vary hugely in their needs for thyroid and studies that looked at thyroid output of normal healthy people found huge variations. The ranges that you see in tests have these variations taken out as they would skew the ranges. The way to find your best dose is the way it was done for 73 years before the TSH test. You simply slowly raise your dose up untill your feel good. You may have to go past that point to know the best place for you and this was a common thing to do in the past. It is not harmful to be hyperthryoid for a short time. You simply raise your thryoid dose up 1/4 grain every two weeks untill you get to around 3 grains, then only go up 1/4 grain every 4 weeks. This is to give the T4 in the medication a chance to normalize before increasing. If you go too fast at the upper doses, you can overshoot and go too high before you have a chance to see what is your best dose. Use Dr. Rind's temperature and pulse page to help you monitor your therapy. http://www.drrind.com/tempgraph.asp Body temperature is a measure or metabolic rate and is controlled by thyroid and adrenal output. Your goal is to get body temperatures that average 98.6, a pulse that stays below 84 beats a minute, and to find a dose that makes you feel the best. If body temperature is averaging below 98.6, then the body's enzyme system cannot work properly. They are very temperature sensitive. This method of adjusting thryoid has been used for well over 50 years prior to tests and was the main way of determining treatment doses and success along with the physical appearance of the patient and their symptoms. People lived long and healthy lives as a rule. the first thryoid patient lived to be 79. Tish Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 24, 2004 Report Share Posted September 24, 2004 > Is full replacement done according to body weight? > > Best-- > > Courtenay. _____________________ Full replacement should be done according to your individual needs. People vary hugely in their needs for thyroid and studies that looked at thyroid output of normal healthy people found huge variations. The ranges that you see in tests have these variations taken out as they would skew the ranges. The way to find your best dose is the way it was done for 73 years before the TSH test. You simply slowly raise your dose up untill your feel good. You may have to go past that point to know the best place for you and this was a common thing to do in the past. It is not harmful to be hyperthryoid for a short time. You simply raise your thryoid dose up 1/4 grain every two weeks untill you get to around 3 grains, then only go up 1/4 grain every 4 weeks. This is to give the T4 in the medication a chance to normalize before increasing. If you go too fast at the upper doses, you can overshoot and go too high before you have a chance to see what is your best dose. Use Dr. Rind's temperature and pulse page to help you monitor your therapy. http://www.drrind.com/tempgraph.asp Body temperature is a measure or metabolic rate and is controlled by thyroid and adrenal output. Your goal is to get body temperatures that average 98.6, a pulse that stays below 84 beats a minute, and to find a dose that makes you feel the best. If body temperature is averaging below 98.6, then the body's enzyme system cannot work properly. They are very temperature sensitive. This method of adjusting thryoid has been used for well over 50 years prior to tests and was the main way of determining treatment doses and success along with the physical appearance of the patient and their symptoms. People lived long and healthy lives as a rule. the first thryoid patient lived to be 79. Tish Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 24, 2004 Report Share Posted September 24, 2004 You have to include adrenal function. The ones who put out more cortisol will use more. You have to consider activity level. The more active you are the more thyroid. You have to consider where you live. Those in warmer climates need less thyroid than those in cold ones. Then there is genetics and daily stress and diet. Thyroid function varies hugely according to studies where they looked at it. 4-1/2 to 5 grains is just a very general number that is where most are. I have also read that it is hard to get a total output in a day in the first place because it varies so much in the day depending on demand. That is why people need to adjust the dose to where they feel best. It could be much higher than 5 grains and maybe lower than 4-1/2. It is well known that people can live on less than is needed. All you have to do is look at all those people who are hypo for years and years without a diagnosis. The body is very adaptable. You can also function quite well on excess thyroid. Studies done with this found that people could tolerate up to 9 grains without ill effects. This is because healthy people's bodies increase the clearence rate when it is high. Their liver's break excess T3 down and the adrenals put out more so that it can be used up at a higher rate and they just move faster and fidget to get rid of it. The 4-1/2 grains came from Philip G. Young's book " Thyroid Guardian of Health " About 74mcg of Synthroid is equal to 1 grain, so that works out to 333 to 370 mcg. Synthroid is nothing like natural thryoid and so in reality it probably takes more Synthroid than 333 mcg to get the same energy as 4-1/2 to 5 grains of Armour. Synthroid is a little less well taken up and has some losses due to needing to be converted to all the other hormones. Tish Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 24, 2004 Report Share Posted September 24, 2004 You have to include adrenal function. The ones who put out more cortisol will use more. You have to consider activity level. The more active you are the more thyroid. You have to consider where you live. Those in warmer climates need less thyroid than those in cold ones. Then there is genetics and daily stress and diet. Thyroid function varies hugely according to studies where they looked at it. 4-1/2 to 5 grains is just a very general number that is where most are. I have also read that it is hard to get a total output in a day in the first place because it varies so much in the day depending on demand. That is why people need to adjust the dose to where they feel best. It could be much higher than 5 grains and maybe lower than 4-1/2. It is well known that people can live on less than is needed. All you have to do is look at all those people who are hypo for years and years without a diagnosis. The body is very adaptable. You can also function quite well on excess thyroid. Studies done with this found that people could tolerate up to 9 grains without ill effects. This is because healthy people's bodies increase the clearence rate when it is high. Their liver's break excess T3 down and the adrenals put out more so that it can be used up at a higher rate and they just move faster and fidget to get rid of it. The 4-1/2 grains came from Philip G. Young's book " Thyroid Guardian of Health " About 74mcg of Synthroid is equal to 1 grain, so that works out to 333 to 370 mcg. Synthroid is nothing like natural thryoid and so in reality it probably takes more Synthroid than 333 mcg to get the same energy as 4-1/2 to 5 grains of Armour. Synthroid is a little less well taken up and has some losses due to needing to be converted to all the other hormones. Tish Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 25, 2004 Report Share Posted September 25, 2004 Gosh. That is totally insidious! Thank you-- Courtenay. I've tried to find an osteoporosis study done with Armour and have not been able to. The only thing I can think is that it was never a significant problem. It is very rarely ever mentioned in any old texts and papers. All osteoporosis studies done with thyroid are done with Synthroid. I think it is because of several things. When they first started using Synthroid, they found that patients required high doses to feel good, usually between 300 and 400 mcg. I thin that this is when they started to see some cases of osteoporosis. Today, they treat at much lower doses and I think they see more osteoporosis because patients are undertreated, which disturbs adrenal function. When the adrenals are not working right, calcium is leached from the bones as the body's way to try and compensate for the consequences of low adrenal output. The other more cynical possibility that we hear more about it is because it can be used to prevent patients from taking control of their treatment and is a good fear generator. Barry Durrant Peatfield has written that he thinks this is used as a tool for doctors to get control of patients. Tish Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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