Re: Diflucan die-off

[Guest guest]

we just recently switched from nizoral to diflucan. definitely die off!

however, 10 days later, lot better.

vicki in los angeles

[Guest guest]

Has anyone's child not shown any changes when first starting an antifungal

but then showed die-off five days into increasing the dose? My kiddo started

Nizoral 19 days ago at a lower dose and current dose 13 days ago. The only

reaction the first week was a severe flare-up of an excema-like eruptive ear

rash but five days into the increased dose, he began having memory problems

and periods of confusion which have gotten worse and now include hyperness,

stimming and much difficulty sitting still. I'm wondering if this is delayed

die-off or a reaction to the med. I'm thinking I'll give it until Monday to

see what happens but with each passing day it does seem more like bad

reaction. Any ideas? I really wish Dr. G's staff was more helpful with

questions like this.

Gaylen

[Guest guest]

>Hey, guys...I posted this the night before last and no one's answered

>yet...I'm really getting freaked out over my little guy's spaceyness

>and stimming

What may help is to go to the homepage on :

/

In the " search archive " section, you can type in " Diflucan "

or " die-off " and search through past posts.

>(plus his teacher is complaining about it; she thinks

>we're crazy to have him in Dr. Goldberg's care anyway)

It is my personal opinion, that teachers and therapists

should NOT know when a child is on a med or not. There

is a tendency in people to want to blame medications or

the child when their teaching methods fail. Child development

is not stagnant, learning is not stagnant, and behavior is

not stagnant. Therefore, teachers, parents, and therapists

all need to *constantly* reassess their procedures and methods.

It provides better feedback for parents (who know if something

has changed). My favourite example of this is from a person I know who

was told to brush her daughter as a form of SI therapy. She

took the brushes, thanked the therapist, and went home and threw

the brushes in the trash. A month later, the therapist asked how

the brushing was going. This mom lied and said that she does it

twice a day.. The therapist replied " I KNEW IT! Her language was

so much better this month and she has been so much calmer... "

Does this teacher know about his meds or is she complaining

about the stimming without knowledge of biomedical treatments

being used?

>> I need my memory refreshed!!! How long does the die-off from the

>antifungal last? It started for about 3-4 days into the

>Diflucan and just seems to be getting worse and worse.

Our son did not react well to Nizoral. A month later, we switched

him to Diflucan and he was better and we have noticed NO die off

after switching to lamisil or amphoceterin.

Here is an old post on the subject:

I know that the use of antifungals can cause something called

" die-off " . Die off reactions are the result of something being

kicked off. For instance, in yeast, the die off reaction is

a Herxheimer reaction. A person can feel worse rather than better.

(this would be a possible reason that a parent might call

Goldberg after starting antifungals complaining that there

child is having a reaction. Some are surprised to hear the

advice to give tylenol and continue meds.) For a Herxheimer

die off, a child can feel like he has the flu. He may be really

tired. He may have fever. The idea is that the herxheimer

reaction is due to an abnormal release of organic acids as the yeast

die off. The yeast are filled with toxins. When you give the

antifungal, the yeast " burst " as they die off. These toxins are

then absorbed into your system and execreted through your urine.

This type of reaction can also occur with bacteria overgrowths as

well.

With antivirals, I am slightly unclear about the die off

process. I hadn't heard that there was an actual die off. I assume

that valtrex works by interfering with how the

herpes virus works (according to this webpage:

http://www.patientcenters.com/autism/news/med_reference.html

BTW, what do others think of this site? It seems to suggest

that antivirals are not the best idea... hmmm... )

Goldberg mentions something about die off here:

http://www.navitas.se/articles/cfsadd.htm but it is targetted

more towards yeast die off.

I think that with some patients (and I am not a doctor), antivirals

might " kick something up " which might make a patient feel bad.

this usually happens when your body is exposed to anything. For

instance, when your immune system decides to fight a fever or cold,

it raises the body temperature. It isn't the fever or cold that

does it, it is your immune system. A fever is more a sign that your

body is fighting an infection. (at least, that is what I was

always led to believe). I suppose that if an antiviral was given,

it might make the body more prepared to fight an infection and the

typical signs of a body fighting an infection and working hard

would appear (letharic behaviors, fever, etc)

Maybe if someone else understands this process better than me

they can jump in.

>, if/when to expect it?

My son was on valtrex and we didn't notice much. This actually

concerned Goldberg who switched us to Famvir. Where a

die off/reaction thing occured was with the antifungal. We

started with Nizoral and he was incredibly pissy. It was really

awful. He scowled constantly. With a die off, you ride through

it but it is short lived. Our die off continued and continued.

Tylenol didn't help. This told us that there might be a drug

interaction problem and we switched to Diflucan. The problems

stopped over a period of a week. When we switched from Diflucan

to lamisil, there wasn't any die off which was a good sign

and showed that diflucan was doing its job. The same thing occured

when we switched to amphoceterin B. No die off showed. No changes

occured.

> My

> son is 3 years old and we just started dosing Valtrex and want to

> understand the difference between " side-effects " and actual

> effectiveness of the medication.

Die off appears to be a short lived thing (a week or two) followed by

improvements. Drug reactions don't go away. They keep going and

going... Things like a " rash " are often drug reactions. Things

like " being pissy " might or might not be a drug reaction but a die

off reaction. Tylenol or motrin may help with the symptoms.

http://www.neuroimmunedr.com/Articles/Autism___PDD/newdefinition.pdf

Here Goldberg says that a die off is a 1-2 week thing. (read page 8-

9)

For yeast die off, Dr. Shaw recommends a few approaches:

1. Limiting sugars in the diet before starting.

2. Give Alkaseltzer Gold to neutralize the acids (warning,

don't give any other kind of alkaselzter)

3. giving some extra b-6 supplements.

I know that Goldberg suggests Tylenol.

for an antiviral flare, I would assume that Tylenol will

reduce the systems which would appear for a week or so.

However, I tend to gravitate towards Children's Motrin because

it is GFCF

When we increased the famvir dose, we noticed that he seemed

to be doing just fine. We didn't notice any worsening of behavior

before getting better. We also didn't notice much in the first

month after reducing our famvir dose.

A.C.

[Guest guest]

)

>

> It is my personal opinion, that teachers and therapists

> should NOT know when a child is on a med or not. There

> is a tendency in people to want to blame medications or

> the child when their teaching methods fail.

In theory, I agree with you. I follow this rule of thumb for speech

therapy, OT, and formerly for behavior intervention (but the BI

specialist is very pro-, so I keep her abreast of everything and

have even taken her to an appt. so she could meet Dr. Goldberg), but

my son's school requires a list of all medications the child is

taking, and the teacher has access to it. They need that information

in case of emergencies, so I understand the policy. The school nurse

attended the IEP meeting and had many pointed questions about the

meds and what they're for. I went to the meeting with an arsenal of

information about , and they were fairly receptive to the idea

that there might - might - be something to it, and that the meds are

not harming my son.

In any case, this particular teacher doesn't have much faith in bio-

medical approaches in general and tends to blame obvious med-related

changes in behavior on my son, me, or therapy/teaching methods. It

infuriates me to no end.

Donna

[Guest guest]

Gaylen, it seems to me that when started Nizeral at the lower dose, he

didn't show any reaction until several days after we raised the dose. That was

8 months ago, so my memory is a bit fuzzy. Hopefully there will be more input.

Donna

Re: re: diflucan die-off

Has anyone's child not shown any changes when first starting an antifungal

but then showed die-off five days into increasing the dose? My kiddo started

Nizoral 19 days ago at a lower dose and current dose 13 days ago. The only

reaction the first week was a severe flare-up of an excema-like eruptive ear

rash but five days into the increased dose, he began having memory problems

and periods of confusion which have gotten worse and now include hyperness,

stimming and much difficulty sitting still. I'm wondering if this is delayed

die-off or a reaction to the med. I'm thinking I'll give it until Monday to

see what happens but with each passing day it does seem more like bad

reaction. Any ideas? I really wish Dr. G's staff was more helpful with

questions like this.

Gaylen

Responsibility for the content of this message lies strictly with

the original author, and is not necessarily endorsed by or the

opinion of the Research Institute.

[Guest guest]

Gaylen,

When my son started Nizoral, I didn't think we were going through any kill

off at all. I waited with baited breath everyday for some type of behaviour

change to indicate some type of kill off. It wasn't until 2 weeks into the

med that his kill off started. It lasted about a month. There were NO food

infractions, his diet was clean and his fruit consumption was really limited

to keep as much sugar out of his system as possible. He was stimmy, whiney,

tempermental, zoney - an all together different kid that showed so much

regression I was sick with worry. I truly thought of giving up on the med

because I couldn't stand it. Dr. Goldberg indicated that usually a yeast

kill off only lasts up to 2 weeks and usually shows up within a few days of

starting a med. For us it was a long drawn out ordeal. Dr. G wanted us to

switch to Lamisil at around week 4 after starting the Nizoral, however our

local ped wouldn't write a new prescription. We stuck it out because I felt

I had no other options, short of quitting. Every now and then I would see a

glimpse of a clear kid and then it would disappear so fast I would wonder if

I was imagining it. At around week 6 or 7 the positives started to outweigh

the negatives and we really did have a clearer, brighter, more talkative

kid. He didn't have any rash so I can't advise you on that, but I do know

that our yeast kill off was much longer than the " norm " , but worth every bit

of angst in the long run.

Good luck. This was the hardest leg of our journey so far.

Lori

Re: re: diflucan die-off

Has anyone's child not shown any changes when first starting an antifungal

but then showed die-off five days into increasing the dose? My kiddo

started

Nizoral 19 days ago at a lower dose and current dose 13 days ago. The

only

reaction the first week was a severe flare-up of an excema-like eruptive

ear

rash but five days into the increased dose, he began having memory

problems

and periods of confusion which have gotten worse and now include

hyperness,

stimming and much difficulty sitting still. I'm wondering if this is

delayed

die-off or a reaction to the med. I'm thinking I'll give it until Monday

to

see what happens but with each passing day it does seem more like bad

reaction. Any ideas? I really wish Dr. G's staff was more helpful with

questions like this.

Gaylen

[Guest guest]

Yes ..with Nizoral early on, and now with a switch back to Diflucan from

Lamisil

Re: re: diflucan die-off

Has anyone's child not shown any changes when first starting an antifungal

but then showed die-off five days into increasing the dose? My kiddo

started

Nizoral 19 days ago at a lower dose and current dose 13 days ago. The only

reaction the first week was a severe flare-up of an excema-like eruptive ear

rash but five days into the increased dose, he began having memory problems

and periods of confusion which have gotten worse and now include hyperness,

stimming and much difficulty sitting still. I'm wondering if this is

delayed

die-off or a reaction to the med. I'm thinking I'll give it until Monday to

see what happens but with each passing day it does seem more like bad

reaction. Any ideas? I really wish Dr. G's staff was more helpful with

questions like this.

Gaylen

Responsibility for the content of this message lies strictly with

the original author, and is not necessarily endorsed by or the

opinion of the Research Institute.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 4/4/03 11:39:39 AM Central Standard Time,

LB@... writes:

<< When my son started Nizoral, I didn't think we were going through any kill

off at all. I waited with baited breath everyday for some type of behaviour

change to indicate some type of kill off. It wasn't until 2 weeks into the

med that his kill off started. It lasted about a month. >>

Thanks for sharing your experience. It is helpful to know that a die-off

could last longer though not something I'd want .

Gaylen