RE: carbonated beverages and osteoperosis

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

----------------------------

" The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times. " --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

----------------------------

>

September 5, 2004

> Re: carbonated beverages and osteoperosis

>

>Chris-

>

>>Beyond that, the soda wouldn't just add H+ ions, but water too. So it

>>wouldn't be acidifying the stomach. If the stomach is 1.5-2, and a Coke

>>is 3.4

>>(according to a quick and unverified Googling), Coke would alkalinize the

>>stomach.

>> It would only acidify the stomach if the stomach was a higher pH.

>

>It seems to me all this is neither here nor there. The heavy load of

>phosphoric acid (being a calcium antagonist) might be the problem in

>carbonated soda, so it strikes me that an important question to ask is

>whether Gerolsteiner (and maybe other naturally carbonated beverages) are

>similarly rich in phosphoric acid.

I was thinking the same thing - that the large concentration of phosphoric

acid in commercial soda pop is probably the problem due to it's imbalance

with calcium.

I can't imagine that any natural water has as much phosphoric acid as soda

pop.

As for Gerolsteiner, one site said it has 80 mgs Ca in 8 oz. (this must be

my richest calcium source then!). I can't find a full ingredient list,

although I believe I'd read it in the past. I doubt it has more phosphorous

than Ca, or has so much more that it's imbalanced like soda pop.

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

----------------------------

" The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times. " --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

----------------------------

>

September 5, 2004

Chris-

>It seems to me the phosphoric acid should only be a problem if the Ca load is

>not sufficiently high. Do you agree? Perhaps problems with soda are that

>they tend to displace Ca sources rather than complement them, or that some

>people simply drink far to much of it.

No, I'm not sure I agree, but my concerns are theoretical since I have no

hard numbers on hand. It's possible to swamp the body's absorption

mechanisms, so it seems to me it could be possible to drink enough soda

(leaving aside the sugar issue for the moment) that no amount of extra

calcium could compensate. Certainly, though, most people's Ca intake is

low enough to be problematic by itself.

-

September 5, 2004

Suze-

>As for Gerolsteiner, one site said it has 80 mgs Ca in 8 oz. (this must be

>my richest calcium source then!).

How absorbable is it, though?

That said, my mom, who's on the verge of death, drinks Gerolsteiner, and

her heart troubles wax and wane day to day largely depending on how little

or how much she drinks, so it must be fairly bioavailable.

-

September 5, 2004

> RE: carbonated beverages and osteoperosis

>

>Suze-

>

>>As for Gerolsteiner, one site said it has 80 mgs Ca in 8 oz. (this must be

>>my richest calcium source then!).

>

>How absorbable is it, though?

>

>That said, my mom, who's on the verge of death, drinks Gerolsteiner, and

>her heart troubles wax and wane day to day largely depending on how little

>or how much she drinks, so it must be fairly bioavailable.

Right, good question. I don't know how absorbable it is.

I'm sorry to hear about your mom - no wonder you haven't been around much

lately. Let us know if you need anything. Although there's probably not much

any of us can do but offer moral support.

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

----------------------------

" The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times. " --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

> http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg

----------------------------

>

September 5, 2004

According to Sally Fallon (in her lecture) and several other

sources that I have seen, it is the phosphoric acid that interferes with

calcium absorption in the bone. I don't know the exact mechanism and I

don't even know how much an effect it would have on a person with an

otherwise healthy calcium level and calcium absorption mechanism but I

would not be surprised to find it a major problem with people who are

already calcium absorption compromised.

As for the carbonation, it is unlikely to be any real problem. The

acidity is unlikely to affect stomach acidity much and any carbon

dioxide absorbed into the blood stream will be exhaled quickly. I can

conjecture a situation where enough carbon dioxide / carbonic acid is

absorbed by the blood stream to cause a sensation of shortness of breath

(also noticed when carbon dioxide levels in the air are high) but this

should pass very quickly.

I might also add that a number of the healthy beverages promoted by

the NT are naturally carbonated. I suspect that humans actually crave

carbonation - perhaps because it is a key indicator of the presence of

beneficial microbes (especially yeasts and lacto-bacilli).

Personally, I gave up soda pop overnight after a 25 year long

love-affair with it. It was to help my son out (he was asked to give it

up for medical reasons) but, since then, my craving for soda is minimal.

In addition, I make my own soda out of fruit juices. Not only does this

hit that old carbonation craving when it crops up but it appears to be

healthier for you (less sugars, more microbial nutrients).

Geoffrey Tolle

Suze Fisher wrote:

> Someone recently told me that she'd read that carbonated beverages can

> lead

> to osteoperosis. I believe she said it was the carbonation itself that is

> the problem.

>

> I'm assuming this conclusion was based on commercial soda pop. I can see

> where downing a ton of phosphoric acid in commercial soda pop might

> lead to

> a gross mineral imbalance, but *carbonation*?

>

> I drink a LOT of Gerolsteiner mineral water (appprox. 20 liters/week)

> which

> is naturally carbonated. I've noticed that since I started drinking it, my

> fingernails have lost strength and durability. However, I made several

> other

> changes around the time I began drinking so much mineral water, so can't

> pinpoint the mineral water as the culprit.

>

> Does anyone know if carbonation itself impacts bone density?

>

> Suze Fisher

> Lapdog Design, Inc.

> Web Design & Development

> <http://members.bellatlantic.net/%7Evze3shjg>

> Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

> http://www.westonaprice.org

>

> ----------------------------

> " The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

> heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times. "

> --

> Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

> University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

>

> The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

> <http://www.thincs.org>

> ----------------------------

>

September 5, 2004

> Re: carbonated beverages and osteoperosis

>

> I might also add that a number of the healthy beverages promoted by

>the NT are naturally carbonated. I suspect that humans actually crave

>carbonation - perhaps because it is a key indicator of the presence of

>beneficial microbes (especially yeasts and lacto-bacilli).

That's an interesting thought. I know that *I* sure do seem to crave

carbonation. If I have a choice between a naturally carbonated water and

non-carbonated water, 99% of the time I choose carbonated. I even drink it

when I work out.

>

> Personally, I gave up soda pop overnight after a 25 year long

>love-affair with it. It was to help my son out (he was asked to give it

>up for medical reasons) but, since then, my craving for soda is minimal.

>In addition, I make my own soda out of fruit juices. Not only does this

>hit that old carbonation craving when it crops up but it appears to be

>healthier for you (less sugars, more microbial nutrients).

>

> Geoffrey Tolle

Yeh, one of these days, I'm going to start making my own lacto-fermented

brews too. But I think I'll try to master AEM first, which I just started

last week.

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

----------------------------

" The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times. " --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

----------------------------

September 5, 2004

In a message dated 9/5/04 9:03:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

heidis@... writes:

I would think it is that gas dissolves into the water under

pressure, but in that case, how would it *only* be CO2? Why not

dissolved nitrogen or oxygen?

____

Yeah, or sulfur dioxide. :-/

Chris

September 6, 2004

>> I have been told by members of the health profession that drinking pop

(more than 2 cans/day) increases the risk of osteoporosis, however nobody

seems to be clear on the reason why. I've even had people tell me it was

the carbonation or the caffeine. <<

I'm not addressing the REAL reason why, as I don't actually know, but every

reference to this I've ever seen has stated with great certainty, as if it

was one of those " known facts, " LOL, that it is the high levels of

phosphorus (already too high in SAD) in sodas that have this effect.

Christie

September 6, 2004

>I don't know if the rest of the world has the same standards, but from the

>few other links I looked at, it looks like the carbonation level in

>naturally sparkling mineral water is supposed to be the same as the original

>source. So, if carbonation per se causes osteoperosis, it would likely do so

>in those populations drinking naturally carbonated mineral waters direct

>from the springs, I'd guess.

I have drunk water from " natural " sparkling springs, and it can be

really sparkly! (also full of sulfur, in that case, it didn't taste

very good!). I'm not sure what causes carbonation of underground

springs. I would think it is that gas dissolves into the water under

pressure, but in that case, how would it *only* be CO2? Why not

dissolved nitrogen or oxygen? Also those " naturally carbonated "

mineral waters were full of *minerals* so I'd think the net

effect would be positive (unless the natural mineral was, say,

arsenic).

>Then you have all those traditional societies that drank beer...although I

>bet some of those old time brews weren't as carbonated as modern ones. At

>least the traditional Tibetan rice beer I had in Nepal wasn't.

EZ Cap bottles were really, really hard to come by in Egyptian times ;--)

When I brew my beer, it is fizzy even if it isn't capped, but not soooo

fizzy. I think the first " really carbonated " beverage was champagne,

made in thick glass bottles with cork held in place by wires, but that

was super expensive and not a daily drink except for rich folks.

But FWIW, if the bone test I got was correct, I have really dense bones

and I drink plenty of carbonated beverages (I like the sparkling mineral

waters too!). I agree with I really, really can't think of any reason

why carbonation per se might be a problem. It wouldn't surprise me

at all that the empty calorie softdrinks do cause problems, either because

of all the sugar or the chemicals killing gut bacteria or who knows what

else.

>

Heidi Jean

September 6, 2004

>> I know that *I* sure do seem to crave

carbonation. If I have a choice between a naturally carbonated water and

non-carbonated water, 99% of the time I choose carbonated. I even drink it

when I work out. <<

Suze, didn't you have a whole period where you were concerned about your

stomach being bloated or distended or sticking out or something? I didn't

realize at the time you drank carbonated beverages, but as someone who

virtually never drinks them, I know that when I do, my tummy sticks out for

a day or two afterward.

If I got you confused with someone else, you can just chalk it up to the

mental fog caused by the Atkins diet. <G>

Christie, who btw is JUST KIDDING about the mental fog thing

September 6, 2004

> Re: carbonated beverages and osteoperosis

>

>>> I know that *I* sure do seem to crave

>carbonation. If I have a choice between a naturally carbonated water and

>non-carbonated water, 99% of the time I choose carbonated. I even drink it

>when I work out. <<

>

>Suze, didn't you have a whole period where you were concerned about your

>stomach being bloated or distended or sticking out or something? I didn't

>realize at the time you drank carbonated beverages, but as someone who

>virtually never drinks them, I know that when I do, my tummy sticks out for

>a day or two afterward.

Yep! That was me. But I wasn't drinking the carbonated mineral water at the

time, except on a rare ocassion. I started drinking it during my pepto

bismol/fast/elimination diet which got rid of the bloating. But I should

probably check and see if it might be bloating me nonetheless. I HAVE

noticed a little bloat here and there, after several months without bloat

(except a very slight stomach distension).

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

----------------------------

“The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times.” --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

----------------------------

>

September 6, 2004

Suze Fisher wrote:

Yeh, one of these days, I'm going to start making my own lacto-fermented

brews too. But I think I'll try to master AEM first, which I just started

last week.

Suze,

I too hesitated for many weeks before embarking on the path of

natural sodas. Then I actually tried it and it turned out to be

ridiculously easy. Here's what I do.

1) Buy a container of 100% fruit juice. " From concentrate " doesn't

matter as much as " High Fructose Corn Syrup " .

2) Pour off ~1 to 2 inches to give yourself a little headroom for gas

build-up (with LB fermentation you don't build up much of a head so 1

inch is fine.

3) Add ~1/8 tsp brewer's (not baker's) yeast or 2 tbs active whey.

4) Reset the lid loosely.

5) Let sit at room temperature for 3 days (70 to 80 degrees F) or longer

if cooler.

6) Pour off into those beer bottles with the re-usable wired on caps

(like Grolsch bottles) or leave in original container. The beer bottles

are convenient because they can take the pressure and will let you build

up a little fizz.

6) Cool in fridge or root cellar.

7) Drink within 1 to 2 weeks.

I find that the LB-fermented sodas retain a bit more of the fruit flavor

but I kind of enjoy the yeasty flavor of the Yeast-fermented sodas as

well. On the other hand, the Yeast-fermented sodas produce a substance

that makes me somewhat light-headed for ~15 minutes. Don't know what it

is but, since the alcohol content can't be more than ~0.5%, I don't

think it's alcohol. I also find it difficult to drink a whole bottle of

the Yeast-fermented sodas at one sitting. I haven't tested enough

LB-fermented sodas to know if the same holds true with them.

Benefits

1) Most of the benefits of real fruit juice.

2) Reduced sugars.

3) Yeast or LB nutrients added to the soda.

4) The fizz builds up again after you re-close your bottle. Your sodas

don't go flat.

By the way, what is " AEM " ?

Geoffrey Tolle

>

September 6, 2004

>I would think it is that gas dissolves into the water under

>pressure, but in that case, how would it *only* be CO2? Why not

>dissolved nitrogen or oxygen?

>____

>

>Yeah, or sulfur dioxide. :-/

>

>Chris

Hee hee. Yeah, given the way it tasted, that would be

a good guess! It'd never market though. " Rotten Egg

Water ... Good for you! " But SO2 ... THAT

would be more acidic than CO2, I'd think ...

Heidi Jean

September 6, 2004

>3) Add ~1/8 tsp brewer's (not baker's) yeast or 2 tbs active whey.

I agree with all the rest of this, but some of us do have to beware

of brewer's yeast .. much of it is brewed in barley malt. The " kosher "

yeast is not. However, baker's yeast is GF (unbelievably, considering

most folks use it for wheat bread!) and works ok, as does kefir whey

or grains. (OK, the beer purists would NEVER use baker's yeast, but

my Mom used it to make cider and it made real decent cider ...)

Heidi Jean

September 6, 2004

In a message dated 9/6/04 3:36:24 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

heidis@... writes:

But SO2 ... THAT

would be more acidic than CO2, I'd think ...

_____

Sulfurous and sulfuric acid are much stronger than carbonic acid, but I don't

think sulfur dioxide concentrations are nearly as high as CO2 concentrations

in natural water. I couldn't find data for the equilibrium of the conversion

of sulfur dioxide to sulfurous/sulfuric acid and CO2 to carbonic acid in the

book I looked at, but pollution with sulfur dioxide doesn't unambiguously make

rain more acidic than CO2 does, so I'm assuming that's due to a lower

concentration of the gas in the water.

Chris

September 6, 2004

> Re: carbonated beverages and osteoperosis

>

Hi Geoffrey,

Thanks for sharing your recipe :-)

>By the way, what is " AEM " ?

>

Activated Efficient Microorganisms. It's a probiotic brew using molasses as

the base. http://www.eminfo.info/

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

----------------------------

" The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times. " --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics