Re: b12

[Guest guest]

we have more bacteria in our intestines than we have cells in our body

- if they are doing their job they are making our b12 for us...

purpleveg wrote:

http://www.vegfamily.com/dietician/0904c.htm

Vitamin B12 is produced by bacteria, fungi, and algae. Neither

plants nor animals can synthesize the vitamin. Thus, it is not found

in plant products naturally (there might be trace amounts in plant

foods contaminated with B12-producing microorganisms, but we should

not depend on contaminated food). Animal foods are reliable sources

of B12 because large amounts of bacteria live inside animals, and

vitamin B12 remains in flesh, milk, and eggs.

We vegans need to get B12 from supplements and/or fortified foods.

The B12 added to foods and supplements are synthetically produced in

a laboratory from bacteria, not animal sources. Here are some other

foods that typically are B12-fortified. Make sure you read the food

label! B12 is also called cobalamin.

Red Star Vegetarian Support Formula Nutritional Yeast*

Fortified breakfast cereals

Fortified soy milk

Fortified vegetarian meat analogs

Fortified energy or snack bars, such as Luna Bars

Fortified soy powders or other beverage mixes

*Nutritional yeast adds a cheesy flavor to foods; my favorite way to

use it is in tofu scrambles.

By the way, the lack of vitamin B12 in plant foods has led many to

question how "natural" a vegan diet is. After all, if an essential

nutrient is lacking from a 100% plant-based diet, how can such a

diet be good for you? This is a very good question. Remember, B12 is

produced only by microorganisms. Consider the sanitary modern world:

only in the last several decades have we had the luxury of treated

water, power-washed produce, and machine-sanitized packaged foods.

Before these conveniences, people (vegans and non-vegans) ate

locally-grown fruits and vegetables and drank water from the well or

public water supply, all of which were rich in vitamin B12 due to

bacterial contamination. In those times, vitamin B12-producing

microorganisms contaminated the entire food supply, not just animal

products. The need of a modern-day vegan to supplement the diet with

B12 is not because the vegan diet is inferior to a diet with animal

products; it is the result of modern sanitary conditions.

Visit this page to see how much vitamin B12 you and your family need

each day.

--

Ilanit Tof - Signature

Ilanit

Ms Ilanit Tof

B.A. (Psychophysiology/Psychology)

Advanced Diploma Healing with Wholefoods

PhD Holistic Nutrition (candidate)

Little Tree Oriental Healing Arts

Helping you grow to new heights of wellbeing

with Oriental Traditions and Modern Nutrition

ilanit@...

www.littletree.com.au

[Guest guest]

Hello All,

Having witnessed many macrobiotic people suffer from the effects of low B12 over the years it is clear to me we cannot rely on the various theories that support a vegan macrobiotic style diet being safe in terms of B12 for everyone. It therefore makes sense to have regular check up, especially after the first few years when our stores of B12 may be getting depleted and if necessary take supplements, get an injection or start eating seafood.

On the subject of bugs. There is a theory in the scientific world that growing up in a more sterile environment, drinking purified water (Even the normal tap water is considered too clean) and eating too many washed foods is making our bodies immune systems weak through lack of exercise and the knowledge / experience on how to cope with different bacteria / viruses. The claim is that because of this humans are becoming more prone to allergies and less able to cope with potentially harmful bacteria when it comes. If you cook your vegetables you will kill any bugs but personally I never wash organic veg unless it still has soil on it. If we want to embrace nature in theory should we not do so in practice and try to get closer to pulling some vegetables out of the garden, brushing off the dirt and eating them?

All the best,

Simon

we have more bacteria in our intestines than we have cells in our body - if they are doing their job they are making our b12 for us...

purpleveg wrote:

http://www.vegfamily.com/dietician/0904c.htm

Vitamin B12 is produced by bacteria, fungi, and algae. Neither

plants nor animals can synthesize the vitamin. Thus, it is not found

in plant products naturally (there might be trace amounts in plant

foods contaminated with B12-producing microorganisms, but we should

not depend on contaminated food). Animal foods are reliable sources

of B12 because large amounts of bacteria live inside animals, and

vitamin B12 remains in flesh, milk, and eggs.

We vegans need to get B12 from supplements and/or fortified foods.

The B12 added to foods and supplements are synthetically produced in

a laboratory from bacteria, not animal sources. Here are some other

foods that typically are B12-fortified. Make sure you read the food

label! B12 is also called cobalamin.

Red Star Vegetarian Support Formula Nutritional Yeast*

Fortified breakfast cereals

Fortified soy milk

Fortified vegetarian meat analogs

Fortified energy or snack bars, such as Luna Bars

Fortified soy powders or other beverage mixes

*Nutritional yeast adds a cheesy flavor to foods; my favorite way to

use it is in tofu scrambles.

By the way, the lack of vitamin B12 in plant foods has led many to

question how " natural " a vegan diet is. After all, if an essential

nutrient is lacking from a 100% plant-based diet, how can such a

diet be good for you? This is a very good question. Remember, B12 is

produced only by microorganisms. Consider the sanitary modern world:

only in the last several decades have we had the luxury of treated

water, power-washed produce, and machine-sanitized packaged foods.

Before these conveniences, people (vegans and non-vegans) ate

locally-grown fruits and vegetables and drank water from the well or

public water supply, all of which were rich in vitamin B12 due to

bacterial contamination. In those times, vitamin B12-producing

microorganisms contaminated the entire food supply, not just animal

products. The need of a modern-day vegan to supplement the diet with

B12 is not because the vegan diet is inferior to a diet with animal

products; it is the result of modern sanitary conditions.

Visit this page to see how much vitamin B12 you and your family need

each day.

[Guest guest]

Hello All,

Having witnessed many macrobiotic people suffer from the effects of low B12 over the years it is clear to me we cannot rely on the various theories that support a vegan macrobiotic style diet being safe in terms of B12 for everyone. It therefore makes sense to have regular check up, especially after the first few years when our stores of B12 may be getting depleted and if necessary take supplements, get an injection or start eating seafood.

On the subject of bugs. There is a theory in the scientific world that growing up in a more sterile environment, drinking purified water (Even the normal tap water is considered too clean) and eating too many washed foods is making our bodies immune systems weak through lack of exercise and the knowledge / experience on how to cope with different bacteria / viruses. The claim is that because of this humans are becoming more prone to allergies and less able to cope with potentially harmful bacteria when it comes. If you cook your vegetables you will kill any bugs but personally I never wash organic veg unless it still has soil on it. If we want to embrace nature in theory should we not do so in practice and try to get closer to pulling some vegetables out of the garden, brushing off the dirt and eating them?

All the best,

Simon

we have more bacteria in our intestines than we have cells in our body - if they are doing their job they are making our b12 for us...

purpleveg wrote:

http://www.vegfamily.com/dietician/0904c.htm

Vitamin B12 is produced by bacteria, fungi, and algae. Neither

plants nor animals can synthesize the vitamin. Thus, it is not found

in plant products naturally (there might be trace amounts in plant

foods contaminated with B12-producing microorganisms, but we should

not depend on contaminated food). Animal foods are reliable sources

of B12 because large amounts of bacteria live inside animals, and

vitamin B12 remains in flesh, milk, and eggs.

We vegans need to get B12 from supplements and/or fortified foods.

The B12 added to foods and supplements are synthetically produced in

a laboratory from bacteria, not animal sources. Here are some other

foods that typically are B12-fortified. Make sure you read the food

label! B12 is also called cobalamin.

Red Star Vegetarian Support Formula Nutritional Yeast*

Fortified breakfast cereals

Fortified soy milk

Fortified vegetarian meat analogs

Fortified energy or snack bars, such as Luna Bars

Fortified soy powders or other beverage mixes

*Nutritional yeast adds a cheesy flavor to foods; my favorite way to

use it is in tofu scrambles.

By the way, the lack of vitamin B12 in plant foods has led many to

question how " natural " a vegan diet is. After all, if an essential

nutrient is lacking from a 100% plant-based diet, how can such a

diet be good for you? This is a very good question. Remember, B12 is

produced only by microorganisms. Consider the sanitary modern world:

only in the last several decades have we had the luxury of treated

water, power-washed produce, and machine-sanitized packaged foods.

Before these conveniences, people (vegans and non-vegans) ate

locally-grown fruits and vegetables and drank water from the well or

public water supply, all of which were rich in vitamin B12 due to

bacterial contamination. In those times, vitamin B12-producing

microorganisms contaminated the entire food supply, not just animal

products. The need of a modern-day vegan to supplement the diet with

B12 is not because the vegan diet is inferior to a diet with animal

products; it is the result of modern sanitary conditions.

Visit this page to see how much vitamin B12 you and your family need

each day.

[Guest guest]

Hi Simon

Couldn't agree more about the vegs and getting a little closer to nature. They

say B12 is also found in dirt so it is a win win situation all around!!!!!!

Re: b12

>

>Hello All,

>

>Having witnessed many macrobiotic people suffer from the effects of low B12

>over the years it is clear to me we cannot rely on the various theories that

>support a vegan macrobiotic style diet being safe in terms of B12 for

>everyone. It therefore makes sense to have regular check up, especially

>after the first few years when our stores of B12 may be getting depleted and

>if necessary take supplements, get an injection or start eating seafood.

>

>On the subject of bugs. There is a theory in the scientific world that

>growing up in a more sterile environment, drinking purified water (Even the

>normal tap water is considered too clean) and eating too many washed foods

>is making our bodies immune systems weak through lack of exercise and the

>knowledge / experience on how to cope with different bacteria / viruses. The

>claim is that because of this humans are becoming more prone to allergies

>and less able to cope with potentially harmful bacteria when it comes. If

>you cook your vegetables you will kill any bugs but personally I never wash

>organic veg unless it still has soil on it. If we want to embrace nature in

>theory should we not do so in practice and try to get closer to pulling some

>vegetables out of the garden, brushing off the dirt and eating them?

>

>All the best,

>

>Simon

>

>

>

>

>>

>>

>> we have more bacteria in our intestines than we have cells in our body - if

>> they are doing their job they are making our b12 for us...

>>

>> purpleveg wrote:

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>> http://www.vegfamily.com/dietician/0904c.htm

>>>

>>> Vitamin B12 is produced by bacteria, fungi, and algae. Neither

>>> plants nor animals can synthesize the vitamin. Thus, it is not found

>>> in plant products naturally (there might be trace amounts in plant

>>> foods contaminated with B12-producing microorganisms, but we should

>>> not depend on contaminated food). Animal foods are reliable sources

>>> of B12 because large amounts of bacteria live inside animals, and

>>> vitamin B12 remains in flesh, milk, and eggs.

>>>

>>> We vegans need to get B12 from supplements and/or fortified foods.

>>> The B12 added to foods and supplements are synthetically produced in

>>> a laboratory from bacteria, not animal sources. Here are some other

>>> foods that typically are B12-fortified. Make sure you read the food

>>> label! B12 is also called cobalamin.

>>> Red Star Vegetarian Support Formula Nutritional Yeast*

>>> Fortified breakfast cereals

>>> Fortified soy milk

>>> Fortified vegetarian meat analogs

>>> Fortified energy or snack bars, such as Luna Bars

>>> Fortified soy powders or other beverage mixes

>>> *Nutritional yeast adds a cheesy flavor to foods; my favorite way to

>>> use it is in tofu scrambles.

>>>

>>> By the way, the lack of vitamin B12 in plant foods has led many to

>>> question how " natural " a vegan diet is. After all, if an essential

>>> nutrient is lacking from a 100% plant-based diet, how can such a

>>> diet be good for you? This is a very good question. Remember, B12 is

>>> produced only by microorganisms. Consider the sanitary modern world:

>>> only in the last several decades have we had the luxury of treated

>>> water, power-washed produce, and machine-sanitized packaged foods.

>>> Before these conveniences, people (vegans and non-vegans) ate

>>> locally-grown fruits and vegetables and drank water from the well or

>>> public water supply, all of which were rich in vitamin B12 due to

>>> bacterial contamination. In those times, vitamin B12-producing

>>> microorganisms contaminated the entire food supply, not just animal

>>> products. The need of a modern-day vegan to supplement the diet with

>>> B12 is not because the vegan diet is inferior to a diet with animal

>>> products; it is the result of modern sanitary conditions.

>>>

>>> Visit this page to see how much vitamin B12 you and your family need

>>> each day.

>>>

>>>

>>>

>

>

Brown Waxman

www.celebrate4health.com

www.bebabywise.com

info@...

[Guest guest]

Hi Simon

Couldn't agree more about the vegs and getting a little closer to nature. They

say B12 is also found in dirt so it is a win win situation all around!!!!!!

Re: b12

>

>Hello All,

>

>Having witnessed many macrobiotic people suffer from the effects of low B12

>over the years it is clear to me we cannot rely on the various theories that

>support a vegan macrobiotic style diet being safe in terms of B12 for

>everyone. It therefore makes sense to have regular check up, especially

>after the first few years when our stores of B12 may be getting depleted and

>if necessary take supplements, get an injection or start eating seafood.

>

>On the subject of bugs. There is a theory in the scientific world that

>growing up in a more sterile environment, drinking purified water (Even the

>normal tap water is considered too clean) and eating too many washed foods

>is making our bodies immune systems weak through lack of exercise and the

>knowledge / experience on how to cope with different bacteria / viruses. The

>claim is that because of this humans are becoming more prone to allergies

>and less able to cope with potentially harmful bacteria when it comes. If

>you cook your vegetables you will kill any bugs but personally I never wash

>organic veg unless it still has soil on it. If we want to embrace nature in

>theory should we not do so in practice and try to get closer to pulling some

>vegetables out of the garden, brushing off the dirt and eating them?

>

>All the best,

>

>Simon

>

>

>

>

>>

>>

>> we have more bacteria in our intestines than we have cells in our body - if

>> they are doing their job they are making our b12 for us...

>>

>> purpleveg wrote:

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>> http://www.vegfamily.com/dietician/0904c.htm

>>>

>>> Vitamin B12 is produced by bacteria, fungi, and algae. Neither

>>> plants nor animals can synthesize the vitamin. Thus, it is not found

>>> in plant products naturally (there might be trace amounts in plant

>>> foods contaminated with B12-producing microorganisms, but we should

>>> not depend on contaminated food). Animal foods are reliable sources

>>> of B12 because large amounts of bacteria live inside animals, and

>>> vitamin B12 remains in flesh, milk, and eggs.

>>>

>>> We vegans need to get B12 from supplements and/or fortified foods.

>>> The B12 added to foods and supplements are synthetically produced in

>>> a laboratory from bacteria, not animal sources. Here are some other

>>> foods that typically are B12-fortified. Make sure you read the food

>>> label! B12 is also called cobalamin.

>>> Red Star Vegetarian Support Formula Nutritional Yeast*

>>> Fortified breakfast cereals

>>> Fortified soy milk

>>> Fortified vegetarian meat analogs

>>> Fortified energy or snack bars, such as Luna Bars

>>> Fortified soy powders or other beverage mixes

>>> *Nutritional yeast adds a cheesy flavor to foods; my favorite way to

>>> use it is in tofu scrambles.

>>>

>>> By the way, the lack of vitamin B12 in plant foods has led many to

>>> question how " natural " a vegan diet is. After all, if an essential

>>> nutrient is lacking from a 100% plant-based diet, how can such a

>>> diet be good for you? This is a very good question. Remember, B12 is

>>> produced only by microorganisms. Consider the sanitary modern world:

>>> only in the last several decades have we had the luxury of treated

>>> water, power-washed produce, and machine-sanitized packaged foods.

>>> Before these conveniences, people (vegans and non-vegans) ate

>>> locally-grown fruits and vegetables and drank water from the well or

>>> public water supply, all of which were rich in vitamin B12 due to

>>> bacterial contamination. In those times, vitamin B12-producing

>>> microorganisms contaminated the entire food supply, not just animal

>>> products. The need of a modern-day vegan to supplement the diet with

>>> B12 is not because the vegan diet is inferior to a diet with animal

>>> products; it is the result of modern sanitary conditions.

>>>

>>> Visit this page to see how much vitamin B12 you and your family need

>>> each day.

>>>

>>>

>>>

>

>

Brown Waxman

www.celebrate4health.com

www.bebabywise.com

info@...

[Guest guest]

I agree that the world is germ phobic and that is counterproductive.

the whole soil based organism probiotic craze a few yearsa go was based

on remedying that and i thought that was a good thing (pity those

probiotics made some people rather ill or contributed to it - some

dodgy strains and sachromyces included but that is another story)

what did come to mind with this discussion is the issue of what is used

to fertilise organic and biodynamic veg and fruit. This is an issue I

became aware of on this list thru reggie which then prompted me to get

in touch with someone who happened to be here in melbourne who is

investigating this issue and coming up with solutions which i found

inspiring and we were throwing ideas around as it is almost unheard of

in the US and Australia but gaining a voice in the UK.

they are using the remains of animal and often (mostly) diseased and

decaying ones (sorry for the graphicness). The organic industry is the

boggest user of it. Some only use manure but most are now also using

the rendered remains. often these are infected, contain hormones

(reported in mainstream press) pesticides and more

there were some cases of people here dying when having organic orange

juice because the fertilizer sprayed on the citrus contained salmonella.

now this has not stopped me eating organic produce but it is a factor

that needs attention. the solution is not to buy conventional veg of

course as some people may suggest but to push for certification of

organic and animal free (as this melbourne based initiative hopes to

promote)

Simon G. Brown wrote:

Hello All,

Having witnessed many macrobiotic people suffer from the effects of low

B12 over the years it is clear to me we cannot rely on the various

theories that support a vegan macrobiotic style diet being safe in

terms of B12 for everyone. It therefore makes sense to have regular

check up, especially after the first few years when our stores of B12

may be getting depleted and if necessary take supplements, get an

injection or start eating seafood.

On the subject of bugs. There is a theory in the scientific world that

growing up in a more sterile environment, drinking purified water (Even

the normal tap water is considered too clean) and eating too many

washed foods is making our bodies immune systems weak through lack of

exercise and the knowledge / experience on how to cope with different

bacteria / viruses. The claim is that because of this humans are

becoming more prone to allergies and less able to cope with potentially

harmful bacteria when it comes. If you cook your vegetables you will

kill any bugs but personally I never wash organic veg unless it still

has soil on it. If we want to embrace nature in theory should we not do

so in practice and try to get closer to pulling some vegetables out of

the garden, brushing off the dirt and eating them?

All the best,

Simon

On 11/9/06 03:50, "Ilanit Tof" <ilanitlittletree.au>

wrote:

we have more bacteria in our intestines than we have cells in our body

- if they are doing their job they are making our b12 for us...

purpleveg wrote:

http://www.vegfamily.com/dietician/0904c.htm

Vitamin B12 is produced by bacteria, fungi, and algae. Neither

plants nor animals can synthesize the vitamin. Thus, it is not found

in plant products naturally (there might be trace amounts in plant

foods contaminated with B12-producing microorganisms, but we should

not depend on contaminated food). Animal foods are reliable sources

of B12 because large amounts of bacteria live inside animals, and

vitamin B12 remains in flesh, milk, and eggs.

We vegans need to get B12 from supplements and/or fortified foods.

The B12 added to foods and supplements are synthetically produced in

a laboratory from bacteria, not animal sources. Here are some other

foods that typically are B12-fortified. Make sure you read the food

label! B12 is also called cobalamin.

Red Star Vegetarian Support Formula Nutritional Yeast*

Fortified breakfast cereals

Fortified soy milk

Fortified vegetarian meat analogs

Fortified energy or snack bars, such as Luna Bars

Fortified soy powders or other beverage mixes

*Nutritional yeast adds a cheesy flavor to foods; my favorite way to

use it is in tofu scrambles.

By the way, the lack of vitamin B12 in plant foods has led many to

question how "natural" a vegan diet is. After all, if an essential

nutrient is lacking from a 100% plant-based diet, how can such a

diet be good for you? This is a very good question. Remember, B12 is

produced only by microorganisms. Consider the sanitary modern world:

only in the last several decades have we had the luxury of treated

water, power-washed produce, and machine-sanitized packaged foods.

Before these conveniences, people (vegans and non-vegans) ate

locally-grown fruits and vegetables and drank water from the well or

public water supply, all of which were rich in vitamin B12 due to

bacterial contamination. In those times, vitamin B12-producing

microorganisms contaminated the entire food supply, not just animal

products. The need of a modern-day vegan to supplement the diet with

B12 is not because the vegan diet is inferior to a diet with animal

products; it is the result of modern sanitary conditions.

Visit this page to see how much vitamin B12 you and your family need

each day.

--

Ilanit Tof - Signature

Ilanit

Ms Ilanit Tof

B.A. (Psychophysiology/Psychology)

Advanced Diploma Healing with Wholefoods

PhD Holistic Nutrition (candidate)

Little Tree Oriental Healing Arts

Helping you grow to new heights of wellbeing

with Oriental Traditions and Modern Nutrition

ilanit@...

www.littletree.com.au

[Guest guest]

I agree that the world is germ phobic and that is counterproductive.

the whole soil based organism probiotic craze a few yearsa go was based

on remedying that and i thought that was a good thing (pity those

probiotics made some people rather ill or contributed to it - some

dodgy strains and sachromyces included but that is another story)

what did come to mind with this discussion is the issue of what is used

to fertilise organic and biodynamic veg and fruit. This is an issue I

became aware of on this list thru reggie which then prompted me to get

in touch with someone who happened to be here in melbourne who is

investigating this issue and coming up with solutions which i found

inspiring and we were throwing ideas around as it is almost unheard of

in the US and Australia but gaining a voice in the UK.

they are using the remains of animal and often (mostly) diseased and

decaying ones (sorry for the graphicness). The organic industry is the

boggest user of it. Some only use manure but most are now also using

the rendered remains. often these are infected, contain hormones

(reported in mainstream press) pesticides and more

there were some cases of people here dying when having organic orange

juice because the fertilizer sprayed on the citrus contained salmonella.

now this has not stopped me eating organic produce but it is a factor

that needs attention. the solution is not to buy conventional veg of

course as some people may suggest but to push for certification of

organic and animal free (as this melbourne based initiative hopes to

promote)

Simon G. Brown wrote:

Hello All,

Having witnessed many macrobiotic people suffer from the effects of low

B12 over the years it is clear to me we cannot rely on the various

theories that support a vegan macrobiotic style diet being safe in

terms of B12 for everyone. It therefore makes sense to have regular

check up, especially after the first few years when our stores of B12

may be getting depleted and if necessary take supplements, get an

injection or start eating seafood.

On the subject of bugs. There is a theory in the scientific world that

growing up in a more sterile environment, drinking purified water (Even

the normal tap water is considered too clean) and eating too many

washed foods is making our bodies immune systems weak through lack of

exercise and the knowledge / experience on how to cope with different

bacteria / viruses. The claim is that because of this humans are

becoming more prone to allergies and less able to cope with potentially

harmful bacteria when it comes. If you cook your vegetables you will

kill any bugs but personally I never wash organic veg unless it still

has soil on it. If we want to embrace nature in theory should we not do

so in practice and try to get closer to pulling some vegetables out of

the garden, brushing off the dirt and eating them?

All the best,

Simon

On 11/9/06 03:50, "Ilanit Tof" <ilanitlittletree.au>

wrote:

we have more bacteria in our intestines than we have cells in our body

- if they are doing their job they are making our b12 for us...

purpleveg wrote:

http://www.vegfamily.com/dietician/0904c.htm

Vitamin B12 is produced by bacteria, fungi, and algae. Neither

plants nor animals can synthesize the vitamin. Thus, it is not found

in plant products naturally (there might be trace amounts in plant

foods contaminated with B12-producing microorganisms, but we should

not depend on contaminated food). Animal foods are reliable sources

of B12 because large amounts of bacteria live inside animals, and

vitamin B12 remains in flesh, milk, and eggs.

We vegans need to get B12 from supplements and/or fortified foods.

The B12 added to foods and supplements are synthetically produced in

a laboratory from bacteria, not animal sources. Here are some other

foods that typically are B12-fortified. Make sure you read the food

label! B12 is also called cobalamin.

Red Star Vegetarian Support Formula Nutritional Yeast*

Fortified breakfast cereals

Fortified soy milk

Fortified vegetarian meat analogs

Fortified energy or snack bars, such as Luna Bars

Fortified soy powders or other beverage mixes

*Nutritional yeast adds a cheesy flavor to foods; my favorite way to

use it is in tofu scrambles.

By the way, the lack of vitamin B12 in plant foods has led many to

question how "natural" a vegan diet is. After all, if an essential

nutrient is lacking from a 100% plant-based diet, how can such a

diet be good for you? This is a very good question. Remember, B12 is

produced only by microorganisms. Consider the sanitary modern world:

only in the last several decades have we had the luxury of treated

water, power-washed produce, and machine-sanitized packaged foods.

Before these conveniences, people (vegans and non-vegans) ate

locally-grown fruits and vegetables and drank water from the well or

public water supply, all of which were rich in vitamin B12 due to

bacterial contamination. In those times, vitamin B12-producing

microorganisms contaminated the entire food supply, not just animal

products. The need of a modern-day vegan to supplement the diet with

B12 is not because the vegan diet is inferior to a diet with animal

products; it is the result of modern sanitary conditions.

Visit this page to see how much vitamin B12 you and your family need

each day.

--

Ilanit Tof - Signature

Ilanit

Ms Ilanit Tof

B.A. (Psychophysiology/Psychology)

Advanced Diploma Healing with Wholefoods

PhD Holistic Nutrition (candidate)

Little Tree Oriental Healing Arts

Helping you grow to new heights of wellbeing

with Oriental Traditions and Modern Nutrition

ilanit@...

www.littletree.com.au

[Guest guest]

Some time ago I read on this list(or was it another one?) that we'd

get enough B12 by just licking the soles of our shoes. Probably not

something to recommend, but it ties in with the topic of germophobia

and B12 being present in soil. This comment was part of a post about

small tribes of people living in remote areas who follow a vegan diet

(not by choice) and have adequate B12 levels presumably because they

don't scrub their produce to death.

ne

(who still chooses to take a supplement over licking her shoes)

[Guest guest]

Some time ago I read on this list(or was it another one?) that we'd

get enough B12 by just licking the soles of our shoes. Probably not

something to recommend, but it ties in with the topic of germophobia

and B12 being present in soil. This comment was part of a post about

small tribes of people living in remote areas who follow a vegan diet

(not by choice) and have adequate B12 levels presumably because they

don't scrub their produce to death.

ne

(who still chooses to take a supplement over licking her shoes)

[Guest guest]

I have also heard about the dubious quality of organic matter and I think it

relates to the larger commercial organic farmers. The local co-op organic groups

are quite strict about the natural matter they add to the soil (in our area

anyway). I have also heard that locally grown veg and fruit are often prefered

over organic because they haven't travelled, packed in ice over hundreds of

miles surrounded by gas fumes.

However, we do have to eat vegs and I think we have to make the best choices we

can. Sometimes a few things left up to the universe are necessary to continue to

love life and not live in constant fear of our health and wellbeing. Of course

we have to be aware but we do live in this modern world and so have to make the

best of what is around. I lived in Portugal for a number of years. Everyday I

went to the market and purchased the locally grown vegetables. They were picked

fresh that morning and grown by local farmers who used terraced style farming.

None of it was organic in but those vegetables were quivering with energy and

organic in spirit. The variety was limited compared to the US but they tasted

delicious and we felt deeply nourished and had tons of energy. I cooked some of

my best meals there too. A small vegetable patch in our back yards is maybe the

safest solution and can render a lovely crop which adds a vibrant, highly

energised addition to our other vegs even if they are only radishes grown in a

large pot on a deck.

Have a lovely day

Re: b12

>

>

>

>I agree that the world is germ phobic and that is counterproductive.

>the whole soil based organism probiotic craze a few yearsa go was based

>on remedying that and i thought that was a good thing (pity those

>probiotics made some people rather ill or contributed to it - some

>dodgy strains and sachromyces included but that is another story)

>

>what did come to mind with this discussion is the issue of what is used

>to fertilise organic and biodynamic veg and fruit. This is an issue I

>became aware of on this list thru reggie which then prompted me to get

>in touch with someone who happened to be here in melbourne who is

>investigating this issue and coming up with solutions which i found

>inspiring and we were throwing ideas around as it is almost unheard of

>in the US and Australia but gaining a voice in the UK.

>

>they are using the remains of animal and often (mostly) diseased and

>decaying ones (sorry for the graphicness). The organic industry is the

>boggest user of it. Some only use manure but most are now also using the

>rendered remains. often these are infected, contain hormones (reported

>in mainstream press) pesticides and more

>

>there were some cases of people here dying when having organic orange

>juice because the fertilizer sprayed on the citrus contained salmonella.

>

>now this has not stopped me eating organic produce but it is a factor

>that needs attention. the solution is not to buy conventional veg of

>course as some people may suggest but to push for certification of

>organic and animal free (as this melbourne based initiative hopes to

>promote)

>

>Simon G. Brown wrote:

>

>> Hello All,

>>

>> Having witnessed many macrobiotic people suffer from the effects of

>> low B12 over the years it is clear to me we cannot rely on the various

>> theories that support a vegan macrobiotic style diet being safe in

>> terms of B12 for everyone. It therefore makes sense to have regular

>> check up, especially after the first few years when our stores of B12

>> may be getting depleted and if necessary take supplements, get an

>> injection or start eating seafood.

>>

>> On the subject of bugs. There is a theory in the scientific world that

>> growing up in a more sterile environment, drinking purified water

>> (Even the normal tap water is considered too clean) and eating too

>> many washed foods is making our bodies immune systems weak through

>> lack of exercise and the knowledge / experience on how to cope with

>> different bacteria / viruses. The claim is that because of this humans

>> are becoming more prone to allergies and less able to cope with

>> potentially harmful bacteria when it comes. If you cook your

>> vegetables you will kill any bugs but personally I never wash organic

>> veg unless it still has soil on it. If we want to embrace nature in

>> theory should we not do so in practice and try to get closer to

>> pulling some vegetables out of the garden, brushing off the dirt and

>> eating them?

>>

>> All the best,

>>

>> Simon

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>> we have more bacteria in our intestines than we have cells in our

>> body - if they are doing their job they are making our b12 for us...

>>

>> purpleveg wrote:

>>

>>

>>

>>

>> http://www.vegfamily.com/dietician/0904c.htm

>> <http://www.vegfamily.com/dietician/0904c.htm>

>>

>> Vitamin B12 is produced by bacteria, fungi, and algae. Neither

>> plants nor animals can synthesize the vitamin. Thus, it is not

>> found

>> in plant products naturally (there might be trace amounts in

>> plant

>> foods contaminated with B12-producing microorganisms, but we

>> should

>> not depend on contaminated food). Animal foods are reliable

>> sources

>> of B12 because large amounts of bacteria live inside animals, and

>> vitamin B12 remains in flesh, milk, and eggs.

>>

>> We vegans need to get B12 from supplements and/or fortified

>> foods.

>> The B12 added to foods and supplements are synthetically

>> produced in

>> a laboratory from bacteria, not animal sources. Here are some

>> other

>> foods that typically are B12-fortified. Make sure you read the

>> food

>> label! B12 is also called cobalamin.

>> Red Star Vegetarian Support Formula Nutritional Yeast*

>> Fortified breakfast cereals

>> Fortified soy milk

>> Fortified vegetarian meat analogs

>> Fortified energy or snack bars, such as Luna Bars

>> Fortified soy powders or other beverage mixes

>> *Nutritional yeast adds a cheesy flavor to foods; my favorite

>> way to

>> use it is in tofu scrambles.

>>

>> By the way, the lack of vitamin B12 in plant foods has led

>> many to

>> question how " natural " a vegan diet is. After all, if an

>> essential

>> nutrient is lacking from a 100% plant-based diet, how can such a

>> diet be good for you? This is a very good question. Remember,

>> B12 is

>> produced only by microorganisms. Consider the sanitary modern

>> world:

>> only in the last several decades have we had the luxury of

>> treated

>> water, power-washed produce, and machine-sanitized packaged

>> foods.

>> Before these conveniences, people (vegans and non-vegans) ate

>> locally-grown fruits and vegetables and drank water from the

>> well or

>> public water supply, all of which were rich in vitamin B12 due to

>> bacterial contamination. In those times, vitamin B12-producing

>> microorganisms contaminated the entire food supply, not just

>> animal

>> products. The need of a modern-day vegan to supplement the

>> diet with

>> B12 is not because the vegan diet is inferior to a diet with

>> animal

>> products; it is the result of modern sanitary conditions.

>>

>> Visit this page to see how much vitamin B12 you and your

>> family need

>> each day.

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>

>

>--

>

>Ilanit

>

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>

>Little Tree Pty Limited, Melbourne, Australia (Little Tree). ®

>registered trademark, © copyright 2003. All rights reserved. This email

>message and attachments may contain information that is confidential to

>Little Tree. If you are not the intended recipient you cannot use,

>distribute, forward or copy the message or attachments. In such a case,

>please notify the sender by return email and erase all copies of the

>message and attachments. The sender of this email message does not allow

>the recipient to forward this email message or attachments in whole or

>in part by means of the internet. Opinions, conclusions and other

>information in this message and attachments that do not relate to the

>official business of Little Ttree are neither given nor endorsed by it.

>This email message and any attachments are subject to copyright.

>

>

>

>Ms Ilanit Tof

>B.A. (Psychophysiology/Psychology)

>Advanced Diploma Healing with Wholefoods

>PhD Holistic Nutrition (candidate)

>

>Little Tree Oriental Healing Arts

>Helping you grow to new heights of wellbeing

>with Oriental Traditions and Modern Nutrition

>

>ilanit@...

>www.littletree.com.au

><http://www.littletree.com.au>

><http://www.littletree.com.au> <http://www.littletree.com.au>

><http://www.littletree.com.au>

>

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

Brown Waxman

www.celebrate4health.com

www.bebabywise.com

info@...

[Guest guest]

I have also heard about the dubious quality of organic matter and I think it

relates to the larger commercial organic farmers. The local co-op organic groups

are quite strict about the natural matter they add to the soil (in our area

anyway). I have also heard that locally grown veg and fruit are often prefered

over organic because they haven't travelled, packed in ice over hundreds of

miles surrounded by gas fumes.

However, we do have to eat vegs and I think we have to make the best choices we

can. Sometimes a few things left up to the universe are necessary to continue to

love life and not live in constant fear of our health and wellbeing. Of course

we have to be aware but we do live in this modern world and so have to make the

best of what is around. I lived in Portugal for a number of years. Everyday I

went to the market and purchased the locally grown vegetables. They were picked

fresh that morning and grown by local farmers who used terraced style farming.

None of it was organic in but those vegetables were quivering with energy and

organic in spirit. The variety was limited compared to the US but they tasted

delicious and we felt deeply nourished and had tons of energy. I cooked some of

my best meals there too. A small vegetable patch in our back yards is maybe the

safest solution and can render a lovely crop which adds a vibrant, highly

energised addition to our other vegs even if they are only radishes grown in a

large pot on a deck.

Have a lovely day

Re: b12

>

>

>

>I agree that the world is germ phobic and that is counterproductive.

>the whole soil based organism probiotic craze a few yearsa go was based

>on remedying that and i thought that was a good thing (pity those

>probiotics made some people rather ill or contributed to it - some

>dodgy strains and sachromyces included but that is another story)

>

>what did come to mind with this discussion is the issue of what is used

>to fertilise organic and biodynamic veg and fruit. This is an issue I

>became aware of on this list thru reggie which then prompted me to get

>in touch with someone who happened to be here in melbourne who is

>investigating this issue and coming up with solutions which i found

>inspiring and we were throwing ideas around as it is almost unheard of

>in the US and Australia but gaining a voice in the UK.

>

>they are using the remains of animal and often (mostly) diseased and

>decaying ones (sorry for the graphicness). The organic industry is the

>boggest user of it. Some only use manure but most are now also using the

>rendered remains. often these are infected, contain hormones (reported

>in mainstream press) pesticides and more

>

>there were some cases of people here dying when having organic orange

>juice because the fertilizer sprayed on the citrus contained salmonella.

>

>now this has not stopped me eating organic produce but it is a factor

>that needs attention. the solution is not to buy conventional veg of

>course as some people may suggest but to push for certification of

>organic and animal free (as this melbourne based initiative hopes to

>promote)

>

>Simon G. Brown wrote:

>

>> Hello All,

>>

>> Having witnessed many macrobiotic people suffer from the effects of

>> low B12 over the years it is clear to me we cannot rely on the various

>> theories that support a vegan macrobiotic style diet being safe in

>> terms of B12 for everyone. It therefore makes sense to have regular

>> check up, especially after the first few years when our stores of B12

>> may be getting depleted and if necessary take supplements, get an

>> injection or start eating seafood.

>>

>> On the subject of bugs. There is a theory in the scientific world that

>> growing up in a more sterile environment, drinking purified water

>> (Even the normal tap water is considered too clean) and eating too

>> many washed foods is making our bodies immune systems weak through

>> lack of exercise and the knowledge / experience on how to cope with

>> different bacteria / viruses. The claim is that because of this humans

>> are becoming more prone to allergies and less able to cope with

>> potentially harmful bacteria when it comes. If you cook your

>> vegetables you will kill any bugs but personally I never wash organic

>> veg unless it still has soil on it. If we want to embrace nature in

>> theory should we not do so in practice and try to get closer to

>> pulling some vegetables out of the garden, brushing off the dirt and

>> eating them?

>>

>> All the best,

>>

>> Simon

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>> we have more bacteria in our intestines than we have cells in our

>> body - if they are doing their job they are making our b12 for us...

>>

>> purpleveg wrote:

>>

>>

>>

>>

>> http://www.vegfamily.com/dietician/0904c.htm

>> <http://www.vegfamily.com/dietician/0904c.htm>

>>

>> Vitamin B12 is produced by bacteria, fungi, and algae. Neither

>> plants nor animals can synthesize the vitamin. Thus, it is not

>> found

>> in plant products naturally (there might be trace amounts in

>> plant

>> foods contaminated with B12-producing microorganisms, but we

>> should

>> not depend on contaminated food). Animal foods are reliable

>> sources

>> of B12 because large amounts of bacteria live inside animals, and

>> vitamin B12 remains in flesh, milk, and eggs.

>>

>> We vegans need to get B12 from supplements and/or fortified

>> foods.

>> The B12 added to foods and supplements are synthetically

>> produced in

>> a laboratory from bacteria, not animal sources. Here are some

>> other

>> foods that typically are B12-fortified. Make sure you read the

>> food

>> label! B12 is also called cobalamin.

>> Red Star Vegetarian Support Formula Nutritional Yeast*

>> Fortified breakfast cereals

>> Fortified soy milk

>> Fortified vegetarian meat analogs

>> Fortified energy or snack bars, such as Luna Bars

>> Fortified soy powders or other beverage mixes

>> *Nutritional yeast adds a cheesy flavor to foods; my favorite

>> way to

>> use it is in tofu scrambles.

>>

>> By the way, the lack of vitamin B12 in plant foods has led

>> many to

>> question how " natural " a vegan diet is. After all, if an

>> essential

>> nutrient is lacking from a 100% plant-based diet, how can such a

>> diet be good for you? This is a very good question. Remember,

>> B12 is

>> produced only by microorganisms. Consider the sanitary modern

>> world:

>> only in the last several decades have we had the luxury of

>> treated

>> water, power-washed produce, and machine-sanitized packaged

>> foods.

>> Before these conveniences, people (vegans and non-vegans) ate

>> locally-grown fruits and vegetables and drank water from the

>> well or

>> public water supply, all of which were rich in vitamin B12 due to

>> bacterial contamination. In those times, vitamin B12-producing

>> microorganisms contaminated the entire food supply, not just

>> animal

>> products. The need of a modern-day vegan to supplement the

>> diet with

>> B12 is not because the vegan diet is inferior to a diet with

>> animal

>> products; it is the result of modern sanitary conditions.

>>

>> Visit this page to see how much vitamin B12 you and your

>> family need

>> each day.

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>

>

>--

>

>Ilanit

>

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>

>Little Tree Pty Limited, Melbourne, Australia (Little Tree). ®

>registered trademark, © copyright 2003. All rights reserved. This email

>message and attachments may contain information that is confidential to

>Little Tree. If you are not the intended recipient you cannot use,

>distribute, forward or copy the message or attachments. In such a case,

>please notify the sender by return email and erase all copies of the

>message and attachments. The sender of this email message does not allow

>the recipient to forward this email message or attachments in whole or

>in part by means of the internet. Opinions, conclusions and other

>information in this message and attachments that do not relate to the

>official business of Little Ttree are neither given nor endorsed by it.

>This email message and any attachments are subject to copyright.

>

>

>

>Ms Ilanit Tof

>B.A. (Psychophysiology/Psychology)

>Advanced Diploma Healing with Wholefoods

>PhD Holistic Nutrition (candidate)

>

>Little Tree Oriental Healing Arts

>Helping you grow to new heights of wellbeing

>with Oriental Traditions and Modern Nutrition

>

>ilanit@...

>www.littletree.com.au

><http://www.littletree.com.au>

><http://www.littletree.com.au> <http://www.littletree.com.au>

><http://www.littletree.com.au>

>

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

Brown Waxman

www.celebrate4health.com

www.bebabywise.com

info@...

[Guest guest]

Simon,

I agree with what you say about becoming weaker as a society but at

the same time there is plenty out there making us sick that we can

avoid. I am a vegan, I am vegan for animal rights and have very

strong convictions on the matter. That is why this is a vegan group

in addition to macrobiotic. I realize many here are not vegan but

this is how I'd like it run. There are alternatives, there usually

are. I do NOT want to eat bugs if at all possible. To me I feel a

sense of loss for the lives of the tiny critters like I would if I

saw road kill. " WE " have become numbed to the fact that they

were/are living creatures just as we are. I don't think anyone here

would just brush aside a dead human we came across. So why for an

animal? Kosher law also specifies how to properly wash veggies as

to avoid eating them.

I believe eating these bugs (besides being morally incorrect) to be

unhealthy. I think there stuff in them that is hurting me.

Why should we believe we have a right to cause suffering to others

to consume them?

Reggie

>

> Hello All,

>

> Having witnessed many macrobiotic people suffer from the effects

of low B12

> over the years it is clear to me we cannot rely on the various

theories that

> support a vegan macrobiotic style diet being safe in terms of B12

for

> everyone. It therefore makes sense to have regular check up,

especially

> after the first few years when our stores of B12 may be getting

depleted and

> if necessary take supplements, get an injection or start eating

seafood.

>

> On the subject of bugs. There is a theory in the scientific world

that

> growing up in a more sterile environment, drinking purified water

(Even the

> normal tap water is considered too clean) and eating too many

washed foods

> is making our bodies immune systems weak through lack of exercise

and the

> knowledge / experience on how to cope with different bacteria /

viruses. The

> claim is that because of this humans are becoming more prone to

allergies

> and less able to cope with potentially harmful bacteria when it

comes. If

> you cook your vegetables you will kill any bugs but personally I

never wash

> organic veg unless it still has soil on it. If we want to embrace

nature in

> theory should we not do so in practice and try to get closer to

pulling some

> vegetables out of the garden, brushing off the dirt and eating

them?

>

> All the best,

>

> Simon

[Guest guest]

Simon,

I agree with what you say about becoming weaker as a society but at

the same time there is plenty out there making us sick that we can

avoid. I am a vegan, I am vegan for animal rights and have very

strong convictions on the matter. That is why this is a vegan group

in addition to macrobiotic. I realize many here are not vegan but

this is how I'd like it run. There are alternatives, there usually

are. I do NOT want to eat bugs if at all possible. To me I feel a

sense of loss for the lives of the tiny critters like I would if I

saw road kill. " WE " have become numbed to the fact that they

were/are living creatures just as we are. I don't think anyone here

would just brush aside a dead human we came across. So why for an

animal? Kosher law also specifies how to properly wash veggies as

to avoid eating them.

I believe eating these bugs (besides being morally incorrect) to be

unhealthy. I think there stuff in them that is hurting me.

Why should we believe we have a right to cause suffering to others

to consume them?

Reggie

>

> Hello All,

>

> Having witnessed many macrobiotic people suffer from the effects

of low B12

> over the years it is clear to me we cannot rely on the various

theories that

> support a vegan macrobiotic style diet being safe in terms of B12

for

> everyone. It therefore makes sense to have regular check up,

especially

> after the first few years when our stores of B12 may be getting

depleted and

> if necessary take supplements, get an injection or start eating

seafood.

>

> On the subject of bugs. There is a theory in the scientific world

that

> growing up in a more sterile environment, drinking purified water

(Even the

> normal tap water is considered too clean) and eating too many

washed foods

> is making our bodies immune systems weak through lack of exercise

and the

> knowledge / experience on how to cope with different bacteria /

viruses. The

> claim is that because of this humans are becoming more prone to

allergies

> and less able to cope with potentially harmful bacteria when it

comes. If

> you cook your vegetables you will kill any bugs but personally I

never wash

> organic veg unless it still has soil on it. If we want to embrace

nature in

> theory should we not do so in practice and try to get closer to

pulling some

> vegetables out of the garden, brushing off the dirt and eating

them?

>

> All the best,

>

> Simon

[Guest guest]

LOL

I don't remember anyone posting that but cute commentary.

Thanks for the smiles.

Reg

>

> Some time ago I read on this list(or was it another one?) that we'd

> get enough B12 by just licking the soles of our shoes. Probably not

> something to recommend, but it ties in with the topic of germophobia

> and B12 being present in soil. This comment was part of a post about

> small tribes of people living in remote areas who follow a vegan diet

> (not by choice) and have adequate B12 levels presumably because they

> don't scrub their produce to death.

>

> ne

> (who still chooses to take a supplement over licking her shoes)

>

[Guest guest]

I remember the Nelissen's daughter saying that at the KI in holland -

there was a lot of controversy about vitamins and mb there after some

supposed studies found problems there - though that may have been

rickets and vitamin A - anyway all three generations of the nelissens

who run the place are glowing pictures of health. the daughter who said

it at the time was pregnant and near her due date and still teaching a

great cooking class.

I would think that natto - esp home made which is super easy - is a

great source as it is cultured with a bacteria. also live miso

purpleveg wrote:

LOL

I don't remember anyone posting that but cute commentary.

Thanks for the smiles.

Reg

>

> Some time ago I read on this list(or was it another one?) that we'd

> get enough B12 by just licking the soles of our shoes. Probably not

> something to recommend, but it ties in with the topic of

germophobia

> and B12 being present in soil. This comment was part of a post

about

> small tribes of people living in remote areas who follow a vegan

diet

> (not by choice) and have adequate B12 levels presumably because

they

> don't scrub their produce to death.

>

> ne

> (who still chooses to take a supplement over licking her shoes)

>

--

Ilanit Tof - Signature

Ilanit

Ms Ilanit Tof

B.A. (Psychophysiology/Psychology)

Advanced Diploma Healing with Wholefoods

PhD Holistic Nutrition (candidate)

Little Tree Oriental Healing Arts

Helping you grow to new heights of wellbeing

with Oriental Traditions and Modern Nutrition

ilanit@...

www.littletree.com.au

[Guest guest]

That all sounds great and lovely but the fact remains that I have

all sorts of parasites right now because of PRODUCE I ATE.

There is a real problem.

I was at the farmers market yesterday, I had to drive nearly an hour

to get there and although there was a bunch of local produce there

was stuff brought in from California too.

We all have to choose our battles. I am suffering, I am sick to

start and even more sick b/c of the parasites that I struggle to rid

my body of.

It's a lose/lose situation till I figure out what to do.

I spoke to WF and they told me the California organic whatever it's

called DOES use animal remnants as fertilizer. We have no idea

where all our food is coming from even if we are cautious. I do not

believe we should just sit back, relax about it and accept. I have

a vegan friend whose son was in the hospital at less than a week old

with salmonella. They figured out she got it from the kale and

other veggies she ate and passed it to her son with nursing. What

is wrong with this picture?

Reggie

>

> I have also heard about the dubious quality of organic matter and

I think it relates to the larger commercial organic farmers. The

local co-op organic groups are quite strict about the natural matter

they add to the soil (in our area anyway). I have also heard that

locally grown veg and fruit are often prefered over organic because

they haven't travelled, packed in ice over hundreds of miles

surrounded by gas fumes.

>

> However, we do have to eat vegs and I think we have to make the

best choices we can. Sometimes a few things left up to the universe

are necessary to continue to love life and not live in constant fear

of our health and wellbeing. Of course we have to be aware but we do

live in this modern world and so have to make the best of what is

around. I lived in Portugal for a number of years. Everyday I went

to the market and purchased the locally grown vegetables. They were

picked fresh that morning and grown by local farmers who used

terraced style farming. None of it was organic in but those

vegetables were quivering with energy and organic in spirit. The

variety was limited compared to the US but they tasted delicious and

we felt deeply nourished and had tons of energy. I cooked some of my

best meals there too. A small vegetable patch in our back yards is

maybe the safest solution and can render a lovely crop which adds a

vibrant, highly energised addition to our other vegs even if they

are only radishes grown in a large pot on a deck.

>

> Have a lovely day

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Reggie,

I know, respect and largely share your views on animal welfare. Perhaps I am a little softer around the edges! I’ve had to be more careful with my weight since turning forty! The great difficulty with all these issues is that whatever we do we are inevitably going to interfere with, in this case, the lives of bugs. Pesticide from non organic foods poison bugs in their millions and you could argue that eating anything but organic veg is supporting mass slaughter / murder. Unless you are prepared to pick out the living bugs and place them somewhere safe the washing, vinegar, cooking will probably kill them. The choice here is do you want to go down the route of killing bugs off through chemicals or leave them a habitat they can live in but risk harming those that are still on your veg when you buy it.

There is no right or wrong but to me it would be preferable to go down the organic route. By the way I am not advocating eating the bugs, just suggesting we relax in terms of washing and cleaning the veg. I can assure you I would not voluntarily eat a live or dead bug.

In the Zen Buddhist thinking we risk deluding ourselves if we put principles in front of our own reality. The more concepts, principles, beliefs, doctrines we follow the harder it becomes not to filter and skewer everything to suit our pet theories and then risk denying ourselves the truth. I think we can still live out most macrobiotic, religious, moral convictions, however, I would remind myself these are not reality and just ideas I happen to be following at this moment in time. I prefer to remain as open as possible to what is real to me even if this blurs some of the edges. Just a thought!

All the best,

Simon

Simon,

I agree with what you say about becoming weaker as a society but at

the same time there is plenty out there making us sick that we can

avoid. I am a vegan, I am vegan for animal rights and have very

strong convictions on the matter. That is why this is a vegan group

in addition to macrobiotic. I realize many here are not vegan but

this is how I'd like it run. There are alternatives, there usually

are. I do NOT want to eat bugs if at all possible. To me I feel a

sense of loss for the lives of the tiny critters like I would if I

saw road kill. " WE " have become numbed to the fact that they

were/are living creatures just as we are. I don't think anyone here

would just brush aside a dead human we came across. So why for an

animal? Kosher law also specifies how to properly wash veggies as

to avoid eating them.

I believe eating these bugs (besides being morally incorrect) to be

unhealthy. I think there stuff in them that is hurting me.

Why should we believe we have a right to cause suffering to others

to consume them?

Reggie

>

> Hello All,

>

> Having witnessed many macrobiotic people suffer from the effects

of low B12

> over the years it is clear to me we cannot rely on the various

theories that

> support a vegan macrobiotic style diet being safe in terms of B12

for

> everyone. It therefore makes sense to have regular check up,

especially

> after the first few years when our stores of B12 may be getting

depleted and

> if necessary take supplements, get an injection or start eating

seafood.

>

> On the subject of bugs. There is a theory in the scientific world

that

> growing up in a more sterile environment, drinking purified water

(Even the

> normal tap water is considered too clean) and eating too many

washed foods

> is making our bodies immune systems weak through lack of exercise

and the

> knowledge / experience on how to cope with different bacteria /

viruses. The

> claim is that because of this humans are becoming more prone to

allergies

> and less able to cope with potentially harmful bacteria when it

comes. If

> you cook your vegetables you will kill any bugs but personally I

never wash

> organic veg unless it still has soil on it. If we want to embrace

nature in

> theory should we not do so in practice and try to get closer to

pulling some

> vegetables out of the garden, brushing off the dirt and eating

them?

>

> All the best,

>

> Simon

[Guest guest]

Hi Reg,

For me that kind of farming is definitely the way to go and was very enthusiastic about the whole Permaculture approach in the eighties which sounds similar.

Even so if we are really being honest and objective by using the herbs this way we are denying the bugs all the food on those fields so they either starve or migrate to another field covered in pesticides and die there. This is where from a philosophical point of view there is no right or wrong but simply choices and I would certainly choose the mixing herb option but recognise it does not really morally leave me with clean hands.

It is common to get pesticides. Most kids have them and we eat them regularly. The problem is the we cannot see or necessarily wash out the eggs which may be embedded in our food which then hatch in our intestines. I did read the advice from other members and cannot really add anything except to say that as we are highly exposed to them and always have been it is probably more a case of keeping our intestines in good health and hope that our body will resolve it naturally. Otherwise as soon as you finish one set of treatment we may unknowingly eat more parasite eggs and start the whole process off again.

One way parasites can spread from human to human is (Sounds gross this part so skip this paragraph if you are squeamish) by laying eggs close to the anus from inside your colon and cause the person to itch. The eggs then attach to the inside of the finger nails and find their way into foods etc and into other people’s mouths. This is apparently common in families particularly when we have children. The point here is that even if you stopped eating vegetables and fruits you would still be exposed to the parasites within the family and possibly when eating out.

Good luck,

Simon

PS Tiramisu with a black coffee.

Hey Simon,

There is a 200+ acre farm in West Virginia that is organic and does

not use any non vegan matter as fertilizer. One row of veggies, one

row of whatever that herb is that keeps the bugs away. There is a

place in CT (someone here mentioned a while back) totally vegan

too. It's possible, but the mass is used to using animals and

being 'cost effective'.

Not sure if you read my other post on eating bugs but I have

parasites because of the produce. The lab test said the parasites I

have are from produce. They did list other things but none were

vegan.

Hey, I'm 40 and don't have a problem with my weight and I eat just

horribly compared to you. What are you cheating with?

Reg

>

> Hi Reggie,

>

> I know, respect and largely share your views on animal welfare.

Perhaps I am

> a little softer around the edges! I’ve had to be more careful with

my weight

> since turning forty! The great difficulty with all these issues is

that

> whatever we do we are inevitably going to interfere with, in this

case, the

> lives of bugs. Pesticide from non organic foods poison bugs in

their

> millions and you could argue that eating anything but organic veg

is

> supporting mass slaughter / murder. Unless you are prepared to

pick out the

> living bugs and place them somewhere safe the washing, vinegar,

cooking will

> probably kill them. The choice here is do you want to go down the

route of

> killing bugs off through chemicals or leave them a habitat they

can live in

> but risk harming those that are still on your veg when you buy it.

>

> There is no right or wrong but to me it would be preferable to go

down the

> organic route. By the way I am not advocating eating the bugs, just

> suggesting we relax in terms of washing and cleaning the veg. I

can assure

> you I would not voluntarily eat a live or dead bug.

>

> In the Zen Buddhist thinking we risk deluding ourselves if we put

principles

> in front of our own reality. The more concepts, principles,

beliefs,

> doctrines we follow the harder it becomes not to filter and skewer

> everything to suit our pet theories and then risk denying

ourselves the

> truth. I think we can still live out most macrobiotic, religious,

moral

> convictions, however, I would remind myself these are not reality

and just

> ideas I happen to be following at this moment in time. I prefer to

remain as

> open as possible to what is real to me even if this blurs some of

the edges.

> Just a thought!

>

> All the best,

>

> Simon

[Guest guest]

I always find it sad that many people have forgotten the power of thought. If we

aren't stamping about making a big fuss about something then we are being

relaxed, laid back and accepting. Learning when and how to receive is just as

important as knowing when to act. Everything starts with a thought. We wouldn't

have money, houses, cars, organic farming, rice cakes or whatever if someone

hadn't thought about them first. We can choose where to put our energy and our

thoughts. If we focus too much on a problem we can make it worse by drawing more

energy to it. Sometimes it is better to turn our thoughts to something positive

and happy which has nothing to do with the problem in hand. This alone can

actually help begin to change the problem by uping the vibration level and

aligning with new vibrations which then turn into new ideas and fresh and

different ways of dealing with things. problem is only a problem because we

choose to see it as such. We can also look at that problem as a way to grow,

develop and see things in a new light.

I am not suggesting we all walk around feeling blissed out because that is just

going to the opposite extreme. I am a single mum, raising 7 children and I have

a limited amount of time and energy, as we all do. I would rather focus on the

beautiful things that I have in my life than spend time dwelling on the

negative. Of course there are dramas with raising kids, health issues come and

go and there are times when life just seems plain old hard. But life is a

serious of ups and downs and the secret is to learn how to ride those waves and

to understand that nothing stays the same forever.

There is a natural cycle to life. Animals eat other animals to survive. Living

things get old and die. New babies are born. Nature is full of critters and

bugs. We are part of nature and everything has energy. Plants quiver when they

are picked. A footstep in the soil changes everything around it. This is life

and we should relish it. Relish that we are here to enjoy and live and laugh. We

make choices to eat natural food in order to respect nature and to feel a

stronger connection to the physical world and to give us stronger health and

vitality. We avoid eating animals because it is not necessary for survival and

our internal system is not set up for digesting large amounts of animal food

anyway. Many things in modern life are way out of balance and that includes

bugs. A natural eco-system creates a balance in nature between plants, bugs,

critters, birds, animals. We can support organic farming and that helps increase

awareness. We can start doing things in our own gardens which changes our

immediate environment. I had a garden in a suburb of Philly. I grew organic

vegs, had various flowers, a small pond and the ecosystem was such that it was

filled with a host of frogs, bugs and the like. My vegs flourished and few were

eaten except by us humans. I am sure our neighbors used other forms of

fertilisers but our little garden was a lovely haven.

The point to all this is we can only do so much and change starts within. We

create our reality and we can choose in every moment what to draw into our lives

and how to see what is around us. The more folks think in a positive, upbeat

way, the more those thoughts will show up in the world.

FYI my brother Simon is a very slim, good looking man!!!!!!

>Sent: Sep 11, 2006 10:45 AM

>To: VeganMacrobiotics

>Subject: Re: b12

>

>That all sounds great and lovely but the fact remains that I have

>all sorts of parasites right now because of PRODUCE I ATE.

>There is a real problem.

>I was at the farmers market yesterday, I had to drive nearly an hour

>to get there and although there was a bunch of local produce there

>was stuff brought in from California too.

>We all have to choose our battles. I am suffering, I am sick to

>start and even more sick b/c of the parasites that I struggle to rid

>my body of.

>It's a lose/lose situation till I figure out what to do.

>I spoke to WF and they told me the California organic whatever it's

>called DOES use animal remnants as fertilizer. We have no idea

>where all our food is coming from even if we are cautious. I do not

>believe we should just sit back, relax about it and accept. I have

>a vegan friend whose son was in the hospital at less than a week old

>with salmonella. They figured out she got it from the kale and

>other veggies she ate and passed it to her son with nursing. What

>is wrong with this picture?

>

>Reggie

>

>

>>

>> I have also heard about the dubious quality of organic matter and

>I think it relates to the larger commercial organic farmers. The

>local co-op organic groups are quite strict about the natural matter

>they add to the soil (in our area anyway). I have also heard that

>locally grown veg and fruit are often prefered over organic because

>they haven't travelled, packed in ice over hundreds of miles

>surrounded by gas fumes.

>>

>> However, we do have to eat vegs and I think we have to make the

>best choices we can. Sometimes a few things left up to the universe

>are necessary to continue to love life and not live in constant fear

>of our health and wellbeing. Of course we have to be aware but we do

>live in this modern world and so have to make the best of what is

>around. I lived in Portugal for a number of years. Everyday I went

>to the market and purchased the locally grown vegetables. They were

>picked fresh that morning and grown by local farmers who used

>terraced style farming. None of it was organic in but those

>vegetables were quivering with energy and organic in spirit. The

>variety was limited compared to the US but they tasted delicious and

>we felt deeply nourished and had tons of energy. I cooked some of my

>best meals there too. A small vegetable patch in our back yards is

>maybe the safest solution and can render a lovely crop which adds a

>vibrant, highly energised addition to our other vegs even if they

>are only radishes grown in a large pot on a deck.

>>

>> Have a lovely day

>>

>

>

>

Brown Waxman

www.celebrate4health.com

www.bebabywise.com

info@...

[Guest guest]

I always find it sad that many people have forgotten the power of thought. If we

aren't stamping about making a big fuss about something then we are being

relaxed, laid back and accepting. Learning when and how to receive is just as

important as knowing when to act. Everything starts with a thought. We wouldn't

have money, houses, cars, organic farming, rice cakes or whatever if someone

hadn't thought about them first. We can choose where to put our energy and our

thoughts. If we focus too much on a problem we can make it worse by drawing more

energy to it. Sometimes it is better to turn our thoughts to something positive

and happy which has nothing to do with the problem in hand. This alone can

actually help begin to change the problem by uping the vibration level and

aligning with new vibrations which then turn into new ideas and fresh and

different ways of dealing with things. problem is only a problem because we

choose to see it as such. We can also look at that problem as a way to grow,

develop and see things in a new light.

I am not suggesting we all walk around feeling blissed out because that is just

going to the opposite extreme. I am a single mum, raising 7 children and I have

a limited amount of time and energy, as we all do. I would rather focus on the

beautiful things that I have in my life than spend time dwelling on the

negative. Of course there are dramas with raising kids, health issues come and

go and there are times when life just seems plain old hard. But life is a

serious of ups and downs and the secret is to learn how to ride those waves and

to understand that nothing stays the same forever.

There is a natural cycle to life. Animals eat other animals to survive. Living

things get old and die. New babies are born. Nature is full of critters and

bugs. We are part of nature and everything has energy. Plants quiver when they

are picked. A footstep in the soil changes everything around it. This is life

and we should relish it. Relish that we are here to enjoy and live and laugh. We

make choices to eat natural food in order to respect nature and to feel a

stronger connection to the physical world and to give us stronger health and

vitality. We avoid eating animals because it is not necessary for survival and

our internal system is not set up for digesting large amounts of animal food

anyway. Many things in modern life are way out of balance and that includes

bugs. A natural eco-system creates a balance in nature between plants, bugs,

critters, birds, animals. We can support organic farming and that helps increase

awareness. We can start doing things in our own gardens which changes our

immediate environment. I had a garden in a suburb of Philly. I grew organic

vegs, had various flowers, a small pond and the ecosystem was such that it was

filled with a host of frogs, bugs and the like. My vegs flourished and few were

eaten except by us humans. I am sure our neighbors used other forms of

fertilisers but our little garden was a lovely haven.

The point to all this is we can only do so much and change starts within. We

create our reality and we can choose in every moment what to draw into our lives

and how to see what is around us. The more folks think in a positive, upbeat

way, the more those thoughts will show up in the world.

FYI my brother Simon is a very slim, good looking man!!!!!!

>Sent: Sep 11, 2006 10:45 AM

>To: VeganMacrobiotics

>Subject: Re: b12

>

>That all sounds great and lovely but the fact remains that I have

>all sorts of parasites right now because of PRODUCE I ATE.

>There is a real problem.

>I was at the farmers market yesterday, I had to drive nearly an hour

>to get there and although there was a bunch of local produce there

>was stuff brought in from California too.

>We all have to choose our battles. I am suffering, I am sick to

>start and even more sick b/c of the parasites that I struggle to rid

>my body of.

>It's a lose/lose situation till I figure out what to do.

>I spoke to WF and they told me the California organic whatever it's

>called DOES use animal remnants as fertilizer. We have no idea

>where all our food is coming from even if we are cautious. I do not

>believe we should just sit back, relax about it and accept. I have

>a vegan friend whose son was in the hospital at less than a week old

>with salmonella. They figured out she got it from the kale and

>other veggies she ate and passed it to her son with nursing. What

>is wrong with this picture?

>

>Reggie

>

>

>>

>> I have also heard about the dubious quality of organic matter and

>I think it relates to the larger commercial organic farmers. The

>local co-op organic groups are quite strict about the natural matter

>they add to the soil (in our area anyway). I have also heard that

>locally grown veg and fruit are often prefered over organic because

>they haven't travelled, packed in ice over hundreds of miles

>surrounded by gas fumes.

>>

>> However, we do have to eat vegs and I think we have to make the

>best choices we can. Sometimes a few things left up to the universe

>are necessary to continue to love life and not live in constant fear

>of our health and wellbeing. Of course we have to be aware but we do

>live in this modern world and so have to make the best of what is

>around. I lived in Portugal for a number of years. Everyday I went

>to the market and purchased the locally grown vegetables. They were

>picked fresh that morning and grown by local farmers who used

>terraced style farming. None of it was organic in but those

>vegetables were quivering with energy and organic in spirit. The

>variety was limited compared to the US but they tasted delicious and

>we felt deeply nourished and had tons of energy. I cooked some of my

>best meals there too. A small vegetable patch in our back yards is

>maybe the safest solution and can render a lovely crop which adds a

>vibrant, highly energised addition to our other vegs even if they

>are only radishes grown in a large pot on a deck.

>>

>> Have a lovely day

>>

>

>

>

Brown Waxman

www.celebrate4health.com

www.bebabywise.com

info@...

[Guest guest]

,

That was absolutely .... lost for words .... inspiring!!!!

I know this isn't a site for gardening, but would ever so love very

specific guidance - would welcome off site, if it doesn't interest

others here. Don't know if you read my post for my need for " rules " -

I am totally aware of having love for nature, needing good soil, all

the generalities of good organic gardeing. I really need SIMPLE

specifics - in fact, what I'd love is if you and all your kids would

come live with me!!!!!! :>)

Klara

> >>

> >> I have also heard about the dubious quality of organic matter

and

> >I think it relates to the larger commercial organic farmers. The

> >local co-op organic groups are quite strict about the natural

matter

> >they add to the soil (in our area anyway). I have also heard that

> >locally grown veg and fruit are often prefered over organic

because

> >they haven't travelled, packed in ice over hundreds of miles

> >surrounded by gas fumes.

> >>

> >> However, we do have to eat vegs and I think we have to make the

> >best choices we can. Sometimes a few things left up to the

universe

> >are necessary to continue to love life and not live in constant

fear

> >of our health and wellbeing. Of course we have to be aware but we

do

> >live in this modern world and so have to make the best of what is

> >around. I lived in Portugal for a number of years. Everyday I went

> >to the market and purchased the locally grown vegetables. They

were

> >picked fresh that morning and grown by local farmers who used

> >terraced style farming. None of it was organic in but those

> >vegetables were quivering with energy and organic in spirit. The

> >variety was limited compared to the US but they tasted delicious

and

> >we felt deeply nourished and had tons of energy. I cooked some of

my

> >best meals there too. A small vegetable patch in our back yards

is

> >maybe the safest solution and can render a lovely crop which adds

a

> >vibrant, highly energised addition to our other vegs even if they

> >are only radishes grown in a large pot on a deck.

> >>

> >> Have a lovely day

> >>

> >

> >

> >

>

>

> Brown Waxman

> www.celebrate4health.com

> www.bebabywise.com

> info@...

>

[Guest guest]

I don't have that type of parasite. A friend checked with a

pharmasist y'day in Australia. I have a strange kind that will ruin

my organs or something. I have decided today that I will go with

the antibiotic approach. I want to feel better.

Any suggestions on healing after antibiotics and what probiotics to

take and how many and how often?

Tiramisu and coffee? How often? Vegan? Bad boy!

Reg

> >> >

> >> > Hi Reggie,

> >> >

> >> > I know, respect and largely share your views on animal

welfare.

> > Perhaps I am

> >> > a little softer around the edges! I¹ve had to be more careful

with

> > my weight

> >> > since turning forty! The great difficulty with all these

issues is

> > that

> >> > whatever we do we are inevitably going to interfere with, in

this

> > case, the

> >> > lives of bugs. Pesticide from non organic foods poison bugs in

> > their

> >> > millions and you could argue that eating anything but organic

veg

> > is

> >> > supporting mass slaughter / murder. Unless you are prepared to

> > pick out the

> >> > living bugs and place them somewhere safe the washing,

vinegar,

> > cooking will

> >> > probably kill them. The choice here is do you want to go down

the

> > route of

> >> > killing bugs off through chemicals or leave them a habitat

they

> > can live in

> >> > but risk harming those that are still on your veg when you

buy it.

> >> >

> >> > There is no right or wrong but to me it would be preferable

to go

> > down the

> >> > organic route. By the way I am not advocating eating the

bugs, just

> >> > suggesting we relax in terms of washing and cleaning the veg.

I

> > can assure

> >> > you I would not voluntarily eat a live or dead bug.

> >> >

> >> > In the Zen Buddhist thinking we risk deluding ourselves if we

put

> > principles

> >> > in front of our own reality. The more concepts, principles,

> > beliefs,

> >> > doctrines we follow the harder it becomes not to filter and

skewer

> >> > everything to suit our pet theories and then risk denying

> > ourselves the

> >> > truth. I think we can still live out most macrobiotic,

religious,

> > moral

> >> > convictions, however, I would remind myself these are not

reality

> > and just

> >> > ideas I happen to be following at this moment in time. I

prefer to

> > remain as

> >> > open as possible to what is real to me even if this blurs

some of

> > the edges.

> >> > Just a thought!

> >> >

> >> > All the best,

> >> >

> >> > Simon

> >

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

I don't have that type of parasite. A friend checked with a

pharmasist y'day in Australia. I have a strange kind that will ruin

my organs or something. I have decided today that I will go with

the antibiotic approach. I want to feel better.

Any suggestions on healing after antibiotics and what probiotics to

take and how many and how often?

Tiramisu and coffee? How often? Vegan? Bad boy!

Reg

> >> >

> >> > Hi Reggie,

> >> >

> >> > I know, respect and largely share your views on animal

welfare.

> > Perhaps I am

> >> > a little softer around the edges! I¹ve had to be more careful

with

> > my weight

> >> > since turning forty! The great difficulty with all these

issues is

> > that

> >> > whatever we do we are inevitably going to interfere with, in

this

> > case, the

> >> > lives of bugs. Pesticide from non organic foods poison bugs in

> > their

> >> > millions and you could argue that eating anything but organic

veg

> > is

> >> > supporting mass slaughter / murder. Unless you are prepared to

> > pick out the

> >> > living bugs and place them somewhere safe the washing,

vinegar,

> > cooking will

> >> > probably kill them. The choice here is do you want to go down

the

> > route of

> >> > killing bugs off through chemicals or leave them a habitat

they

> > can live in

> >> > but risk harming those that are still on your veg when you

buy it.

> >> >

> >> > There is no right or wrong but to me it would be preferable

to go

> > down the

> >> > organic route. By the way I am not advocating eating the

bugs, just

> >> > suggesting we relax in terms of washing and cleaning the veg.

I

> > can assure

> >> > you I would not voluntarily eat a live or dead bug.

> >> >

> >> > In the Zen Buddhist thinking we risk deluding ourselves if we

put

> > principles

> >> > in front of our own reality. The more concepts, principles,

> > beliefs,

> >> > doctrines we follow the harder it becomes not to filter and

skewer

> >> > everything to suit our pet theories and then risk denying

> > ourselves the

> >> > truth. I think we can still live out most macrobiotic,

religious,

> > moral

> >> > convictions, however, I would remind myself these are not

reality

> > and just

> >> > ideas I happen to be following at this moment in time. I

prefer to

> > remain as

> >> > open as possible to what is real to me even if this blurs

some of

> > the edges.

> >> > Just a thought!

> >> >

> >> > All the best,

> >> >

> >> > Simon

> >

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Reg,

Sorry to hear it is more serious. Sometimes the medicine is the safest option. I would eat one or two miso soups a day, some natto once or twice a week, sauerkraut every other day, fresh pickles, a few slices of takuan daikon a few times a week and loads of vegetables as we discussed before. Do you have a name for these parasites? It would help to find out if the parasites and their eggs are killed off by boiling the veg in water if you feel insecure about the parasites. I think it is good practice to get a second opinion / test regarding the bugs, no-one is infallible.

As wrote your own attitude will make a huge difference, particularly to your immune system so I would try to seek out the positive angle and do what ever it takes to laugh for at least half an hour a day.

I was working in Venice for a week last year and as far as I remember I had a tiramisu every day. Normally it could be once or twice a month. Somehow it tastes and feels better with the coffee.

I don't have that type of parasite. A friend checked with a

pharmasist y'day in Australia. I have a strange kind that will ruin

my organs or something. I have decided today that I will go with

the antibiotic approach. I want to feel better.

Any suggestions on healing after antibiotics and what probiotics to

take and how many and how often?

Tiramisu and coffee? How often? Vegan? Bad boy!

Reg

> >> >

> >> > Hi Reggie,

> >> >

> >> > I know, respect and largely share your views on animal

welfare.

> > Perhaps I am

> >> > a little softer around the edges! I’ve had to be more careful

with

> > my weight

> >> > since turning forty! The great difficulty with all these

issues is

> > that

> >> > whatever we do we are inevitably going to interfere with, in

this

> > case, the

> >> > lives of bugs. Pesticide from non organic foods poison bugs in

> > their

> >> > millions and you could argue that eating anything but organic

veg

> > is

> >> > supporting mass slaughter / murder. Unless you are prepared to

> > pick out the

> >> > living bugs and place them somewhere safe the washing,

vinegar,

> > cooking will

> >> > probably kill them. The choice here is do you want to go down

the

> > route of

> >> > killing bugs off through chemicals or leave them a habitat

they

> > can live in

> >> > but risk harming those that are still on your veg when you

buy it.

> >> >

> >> > There is no right or wrong but to me it would be preferable

to go

> > down the

> >> > organic route. By the way I am not advocating eating the

bugs, just

> >> > suggesting we relax in terms of washing and cleaning the veg.

I

> > can assure

> >> > you I would not voluntarily eat a live or dead bug.

> >> >

> >> > In the Zen Buddhist thinking we risk deluding ourselves if we

put

> > principles

> >> > in front of our own reality. The more concepts, principles,

> > beliefs,

> >> > doctrines we follow the harder it becomes not to filter and

skewer

> >> > everything to suit our pet theories and then risk denying

> > ourselves the

> >> > truth. I think we can still live out most macrobiotic,

religious,

> > moral

> >> > convictions, however, I would remind myself these are not

reality

> > and just

> >> > ideas I happen to be following at this moment in time. I

prefer to

> > remain as

> >> > open as possible to what is real to me even if this blurs

some of

> > the edges.

> >> > Just a thought!

> >> >

> >> > All the best,

> >> >

> >> > Simon

> >

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Hey Simon,

I'm off to the gastroenterologits tomorrow after court so I'll find

out what he says.

My lovely parasites are called Aeromonas Caviae and are a bacteria.

Attitude can be a great thing when all is down but sometimes life

can just get too difficult. I am far from the only person with

problems but I have had a major share for the past few years. I

find it's ok to be affected by problems and then wipe yourself off

and move on. To sometimes push aside that there is a problem is

denial. Everyone here who knows me in 'real life' knows that my

attitude is the ONLY thing that saves me thru my dramas.

Once or twice a month is hardly decadance. I'm sure you look just

fine. Ask your wife, I'll bet she'll say you're perfect.

Roma doesn't do it for you?

Peace,

Reg

>

> Hi Reg,

>

> Sorry to hear it is more serious. Sometimes the medicine is the

safest

> option. I would eat one or two miso soups a day, some natto once

or twice a

> week, sauerkraut every other day, fresh pickles, a few slices of

takuan

> daikon a few times a week and loads of vegetables as we discussed

before. Do

> you have a name for these parasites? It would help to find out if

the

> parasites and their eggs are killed off by boiling the veg in

water if you

> feel insecure about the parasites. I think it is good practice to

get a

> second opinion / test regarding the bugs, no-one is infallible.

>

> As wrote your own attitude will make a huge difference,

particularly

> to your immune system so I would try to seek out the positive

angle and do

> what ever it takes to laugh for at least half an hour a day.

>

> I was working in Venice for a week last year and as far as I

remember I had

> a tiramisu every day. Normally it could be once or twice a month.

Somehow it

> tastes and feels better with the coffee.