Guest guest Posted August 11, 2004 Report Share Posted August 11, 2004 I can't answer your questions, but I can tell you that I totally identify with your frustration... although personally I tend to get depressed, or feel overwhelmed, at the thought of the battle we have ahead of us, rather than angry. I think I would prefer angry lol! > I just picked up Nutrition and Physical Degeneration by Weston A. > Price. I've skimmed it, but everytime I sit down to actually read > the book . . . my blood boils at the idea of the ENTIRE medical > profession ignoring nutrition and pretending to " make " me healthy. > My dentist gets to collect money even more regularly, and the > orthodontist is even now greedily rubbing his hands over the > prospect of my three offspring with narrow arches and malformed jaws. > > > Danelle in Kansas, the WHEAT state of course Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 11, 2004 Report Share Posted August 11, 2004 On Tue, 10 Aug 2004 21:38:11 -0000 " homzbst " <homesweethome@...> wrote: > I just picked up Nutrition and Physical Degeneration by Weston A. > Price. I've skimmed it, but everytime I sit down to actually read > the book . . . my blood boils at the idea of the ENTIRE medical > profession ignoring nutrition and pretending to " make " me healthy. > My dentist gets to collect money even more regularly, and the > orthodontist is even now greedily rubbing his hands over the > prospect of my three offspring with narrow arches and malformed jaws. > > So, until I can regain control over my emotions long enough to read > all 500+ pages, will you be kind enough to summarize Dr. Price's > conclusions? > > 1. How many generations does it take to RESTORE genetic health? > Assuming my children (and their spouses) eat right, will my > grandkids be incredibly healthy specimens? Or do I have to wait for > my great-grandchildren? one, IIRC > 2. How will changing the diet effect my 15ds, 11dd, and 9dd with > regards to their dental health? Will their teeth gradually become > resistant to dental carries? Are they young enough their arches > might actually change over the next few years, or should we continue > with our current plan of orthodontic intervention? the diet can definitely improve their dental health depending on what you do and the quality of the foods/supplements > 3. Can the mental " injuries " be reversed by diet? Long story, but > what little I've read has certainly shed light on relatives with > violent outbursts of anger, mental instability . . . unpredictable > and irrational thought processes. yes it can > > 4. Is Dr. Price REALLY concluding that much of society's criminals > are merely nutritionally deficient? Does he truly ignore the > possibility of moral choices? good question. > > (((sigh))) The real test of my own emotional stability will be > taking my kids in to visit the doctor and resisting the urge to slap > him. hmmm..maybe you should hold off on those visits for awhile, lol! War, the God That Failed http://tinyurl.com/2npch " They told just the same, That just because a tyrant has the might By force of arms to murder men downright And burn down house and home and leave all flat They call the man a captain, just for that. But since an outlaw with his little band Cannot bring half such mischief on the land Or be the cause of so much harm and grief, He only earns the title of a thief. " --Geoffrey Chaucer, The Manciple's Tale Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 11, 2004 Report Share Posted August 11, 2004 > > 4. Is Dr. Price REALLY concluding that much of society's criminals >> are merely nutritionally deficient? Does he truly ignore the >> possibility of moral choices? > >good question. IT's worth mentioning that in my own history, during those periods of time when I was eating nothing but organic foods of the highest nutritional value and had been doing so for at least 90 days, I was effortlessly coming from a place within myself where there was no need to make moral choices: I was effortlessly doing Good. And taking joy in doing so. In fact, thanks to diet, I've had long periods of time when the New Testament's 'meanings' were simply 'obvious' to me. Unfortunately, somewhere along that track, it becomes all too easy to succomb to the twin siren song of both Ben AND Jerry and then it's not to many weeks (or pints!) before I'm back to being a snarling mess of self-interest .... ;-) -Allan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 11, 2004 Report Share Posted August 11, 2004 Danelle, I can't summarize the information in Price's book as I've never read it (actually, not even heard of it until - isn't that a hoot!) but I did want to weigh in on a few of your questions with ideas/information that I've picked up over the years. homzbst wrote: > 1. How many generations does it take to RESTORE genetic health? > Assuming my children (and their spouses) eat right, will my > grandkids be incredibly healthy specimens? Or do I have to wait for > my great-grandchildren? My first impulse is to say that there is no way to " restore genetic health " except through careful breeding. However, there is now some evidence that this may not be entirely true. Recently, some microbes have been found to be able to make some adjustment to their genetic structures so as to adapt to some new environmental stresses. This area of biological study is still in its infancy but it's probable that some organisms can allow mutations to occur in their genetic makeup and take those changes for a " test-drive " without actually committing to them unless they work out. However, while such a mechanism may exist in humans it is unlikely to directly affect the reproductive cells in any productive way and, so, is not likely to be a potential " repair " mechanism. There are also prions. At first touted as a bane on living organisms, these mutated proteins have been found to be part of a survival mechanism in yeasts (though we don't know exactly how). More importantly, yeasts can turn prion production off and on. If prions exist in humans (and its seems more likely that they do every day) then we probably have some sort of control mechanism as well (though what we normally use prions for is unknown, currently). I read an article, recently, at the Weston Price web-site in which the author argued that mad-cow disease was not caused by prions but by organo-phosphates. I thought his argument persuasive but probably not complete. I would like to suggest that genetic flaws and organo-phosphates can interfere with the prion regulating genes, preventing the body from eliminating these rough proteins and eventually overwhelming the body. What has that to do with this topic? So far, the only major condition attributed to prions in mammals has been variants on spongiform encephalitis (mad-cow, Jakob-Kreuzfeld, scrapie) but there are likely to be many more lesser known conditions that prions are responsible for. If this is the case and diet can have an effect on prion regulation, then this could be a " genetic weakening " that might be reversible over one or more generations with better diets and less exposure to certain chemicals. Another thing that is often overlooked in health of the next generation, is the critical first trimester of development. All obstetricians will tell you that this is a critical time in fetal development but the truth is that we are only beginning to understand the vulnerabilities (and strengths) of developing fetuses. More than likely, a good deal of " genetic weakening " can also be attributed to developmental rather than genetic issues and some of these may be addressable by dietary and environmental control early in pregnancy. It is also important to stimulate a child's immune system without over-stimulating or stressing it. We need to let them get sick sometimes and eat microbes (yes, even those in yogurt). However, no one even understands the full implications or potential of pro-biotics (living food) as yet. This goes beyond pro-biotics and is even less understood. Those are all extra-genetic " genetic weaknesses " are are probably at the root of what many people such Price and Louis Bromfield spoke of. True genetic weaknesses (such as haemophilia or sickle-cell anemia) must either be bred out of a population or removed through genetic engineering (and this kind of genetic engineering I full-heartedly support). > 3. Can the mental " injuries " be reversed by diet? Long story, but > what little I've read has certainly shed light on relatives with > violent outbursts of anger, mental instability . . . unpredictable > and irrational thought processes. This is a field that we are truly only at the gates of understanding. We know that some mental illnesses are genetic, some are environmental, and some are genetic but inactive until triggered by some environmental stress or developmental " bump " . We have only the beginning notions of which are which. We are also only at the beginning of understanding which criminal " choices " are related to mental conditions and which are a result of man's natural tendencies. In hearing FBI experts who have studied ultra-violent criminals describe many of these men, one begins to realize that they are truly not sane as we define sanity. Most of them have been raised in truly horrendous childhoods and something in them has snapped. Most of them feel that something in them is dead and they try to " feel alive " but doing things that they know any normal person would feel something about. This understanding certainly doesn't make them any less dangerous to others but it does give us some clues as to where to start looking at what has made them what they are and how it might be possible to reverse the situation. My personal belief is that a metabolic stress-coping mechanism has broken down in these people. They got pushed over the edge, the stress-coping mechanism got triggered, but their bodies were simply not equipped to reverse the mechanism unlike most people. I believe that a similar but different stress-coping mechanism is responsible for alcoholism and a host of related self-abusive addictions. There are also a number of mental illnesses that seem to be treatable, to some extent, with diet. However, until we can figure out the exact metabolic pathways involved in these conditions, diet may be no more effective a cure for many conditions than drugs. > 4. Is Dr. Price REALLY concluding that much of society's criminals > are merely nutritionally deficient? Does he truly ignore the > possibility of moral choices? See my answer above. Understanding that some criminal conditions are actually mental conditions and treat them as such can liberate us to examine our society and try to create better social structures that will further reduce criminal choices which will, in turn, allow us to better direct our resources at the " moral " criminals whose actions are truly based on mankind's less enviable traits. > (((sigh))) The real test of my own emotional stability will be > taking my kids in to visit the doctor and resisting the urge to slap > him. > > Danelle in Kansas, the WHEAT state of course Geoffrey Tolle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 11, 2004 Report Share Posted August 11, 2004 >1. How many generations does it take to RESTORE genetic health? >Assuming my children (and their spouses) eat right, will my >grandkids be incredibly healthy specimens? Or do I have to wait for >my great-grandchildren? I can't say for sure, but I have on interesting test case in my family. My two kids are very different: the oldest was a healthy, " normal " kid who got lots of SAD snacks her first 5 years of life. The second had major health problems when born, and as a result has been fed by G-tube all his life. But otherwise he's pretty normal. But he's never got normal SAD food. The first has narrow dental arches, tho they don't seem to be getting worse and may be getting better. She also has thin enamel, which is likely due to me having gluten problems while she was in utero. The second, however, does NOT have narrow arches. His teeth are widely spaced, to the extent they looked abnormal to me til I looked at the pictures in Price's book. His diet is not incredibly wonderful, high brix, etc. But he's never got any kind of wheat, and his dairy now is all kefired, and the meat is grass fed. Both kids have been eating decent food the last 2-3 years. They have great dispositions and are really HAPPY kids. Very healthy looking too. Given that in this case, both parents have narrow arches, are neurotic, not fed well, the fact this kid " recovered " so fast makes me think it's not an impossible feat. This kid has had major strikes against him, but the " diet factor " seems to have overcome most of them. Mind you, most kids in his position are fed a canned formula of corn syrup, soy protein and vitamins (can you spell " Soylent Green? " ) and are also in and out of the hospital on a regular basis. His " permanent teeth " seem to have decent enamel on them too. Sooo ... my anectdotal conclusions are that if you keep the food allergens out of the picture, kids recover pretty quick. The baby teeth are goners if the mother is gluten intolerant and ate gluten during pregnancy. The brain can recover if a good diet is started fairly early in childhood. But a whole lot of it depends on genetics, likely. What is good for an Italian peasant doesn't necessarily work for an Irish person. Now, a kid damaged by gluten intolerance (in our case) is not in fact " genetically damaged " as Price supposed. That person is very, very low in certain nutrients, because they can't absorb them, and that damages fetuses. But it is very reversible, because usually the DNA isn't damaged. > > 4. Is Dr. Price REALLY concluding that much of society's criminals >> are merely nutritionally deficient? Does he truly ignore the >> possibility of moral choices? I'd like to leave that to the theologians! However, I can say that I used to have incredible anger fits, which were OBVIOUSLY not my fault. Definitely I was driven to it by the stupidity of others! However they only occur after I eat certain foods, and they occur the next day after exactly 20 hours or so. Now that I know this, I guess my " moral choice " is that I choose to not eat the things that cause me to over-react! Or that I choose to eat them when no one is around to be damaged by the result. -- Heidi Jean Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 11, 2004 Report Share Posted August 11, 2004 > Re: W. A. Price, abridged > > >Danelle, > > I can't summarize the information in Price's book as I've never >read it (actually, not even heard of it until - isn't that a hoot!) You really, really should read it. It pretty much answers Danelle's questions. >homzbst wrote: > >> 1. How many generations does it take to RESTORE genetic health? >> Assuming my children (and their spouses) eat right, will my >> grandkids be incredibly healthy specimens? Or do I have to wait for >> my great-grandchildren? > > My first impulse is to say that there is no way to " restore genetic >health " except through careful breeding. However, there is now some >evidence that this may not be entirely true. > Recently, some microbes have been found to be able to make some >adjustment to their genetic structures so as to adapt to some new >environmental stresses. This area of biological study is still in its >infancy but it's probable that some organisms can allow mutations to >occur in their genetic makeup and take those changes for a " test-drive " >without actually committing to them unless they work out. However, while >such a mechanism may exist in humans it is unlikely to directly affect >the reproductive cells in any productive way and, so, is not likely to >be a potential " repair " mechanism. That is interesting, but there's another issue at hand here - nutrition affects genetic *expression*, which can drastically alter the health of one's offspring. Price's non-industrialized groups knew this well, as many had special *pre-marriage* diets for BOTH parents-to-be. There's an emerging field of study on this issue called epigenetics. An interesting article was posted on this list several months ago on this topic. I just dug it up - very interesting read! A Pregnant Mother's Diet May Turn the Genes Around http://people.ccmr.cornell.edu/~ginsparg/Phys446-546/nyt07oct03epi.html In response to Danelle's question, it really depends on several factors and varies from individual to individual. Certainly your grandchildren have the opportunity to be far healthier than you are, and their children have the opportunity to be healthier than they are. If you stay on this list awhile you'll hear some amazing testimonials about improvements in just one generation. Also, FWIW, many natural-rearing dog breeders are finding that it takes about 3 generations to restore dogs to an excellent level of health and disease-resistance on an improved diet and lifestyle. But many of them have switched from excessively processed low quality food to raw food, in which there's an upgrade in quality, however, most of the raw food is probably not of particularly high quality either. Perhaps if they were able to feed consistently high quality and properly balanced foods then they might see more drastic improvements in fewer than 3 generations. >> 3. Can the mental " injuries " be reversed by diet? Long story, but >> what little I've read has certainly shed light on relatives with >> violent outbursts of anger, mental instability . . . unpredictable >> and irrational thought processes. The answer is that some mental " injuries " most definitely can be reversed by diet, and/or chelation/detoxifcation and/or lifestyle changes. Price noted that some of the people he studied who displaced their native diets with processed imported foods developed mental illnesses while those on their native diets did not. Conversely, several modern researchers have found they can reverse mental illness through diet and supplementation - Ross is one good example. Check out her book " The Diet Cure " for the details on how she does this. Additionally, some people find that their mental issues clear up on diet alone without other changes. Masterjohn has posted about the drastic changes in his mental health as a result of switching to a WAP/NT diet from a vegetarian diet. IIRC he had been having episodes of extreme paranoia and anxiety in which he thought someone was trying to poison him, and I think he had some other unusal " mental " stuff going on that he mentioned. Not long after he began eating a diet rich in animal foods literally all of this went away. Suze Fisher Lapdog Design, Inc. Web Design & Development http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine http://www.westonaprice.org ---------------------------- “The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times.” -- Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher. The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics <http://www.thincs.org> ---------------------------- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 11, 2004 Report Share Posted August 11, 2004 >>>>>> >But a whole lot of it depends on genetics, likely. What is good for an Italian peasant doesn't necessarily work for an Irish person. >>>>>> Bingo! Wouldn't an racially pure Irishman have to eat his OWN prmitive diet? What does this mean for the rest of us . . . of the Heinz57 variety? I can see how this " theory " can be taken to such an extreme that it becomes totally impractical. I'm leaning toward the ol' standbys of moderation, variety, and balance, all based on whole food from sources of integrity. >>>>> However, I can say that I used to have incredible anger fits, which were OBVIOUSLY not my fault. Definitely I was driven to it by the stupidity of others! However they only occur after I eat certain foods, and they occur the next day after exactly 20 hours or so. Now that I know this, I guess my " moral choice " is that I choose to not eat the things that cause me to over-react! >>>>>>> I'm leaning more toward this conviction . . . it is still my choice what I eat and the consequences come with the food. Danelle in Kansas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 11, 2004 Report Share Posted August 11, 2004 hi, danielle... first, breathe... >2. How will changing the diet effect my 15ds, 11dd, and 9dd with >regards to their dental health? Will their teeth gradually become >resistant to dental carries? Are they young enough their arches >might actually change over the next few years, or should we continue >with our current plan of orthodontic intervention? well, first off, do they really need orthodontics? my teeth are all crunched and i can chew fine. we didn't have money, so i still have crooked teeth. and lots of people think i'm pretty anyway. so skip the orthodontics! secondly, i have some personal experience that could help you: in february, i made a dentist appt for a cavity with a very busy dentist. the appt was for three months later. on feb 26, we went gluten free. the first week of april i cancelled the appointment cause the cavity had healed. so, there ya go. >3. Can the mental " injuries " be reversed by diet? Long story, but >what little I've read has certainly shed light on relatives with >violent outbursts of anger, mental instability . . . unpredictable >and irrational thought processes. absolutely! those of us on the list that are gluten free all have stories of how much sanity was reclaimed just by going gluten free. my husband, who went on ritalin as an adult at one point (but off it again in 6 months cause of the side effects) saw his ADD completely *go away* on a gluten free diet. once he ate some gluten without realizing it (he didn't realize that crab cakes had flour!) and was a complete dip for the next few days. that proved it!! some things get better with gluten-free-ness and then again more better with good nutrition and sometimes some supplements to help along the way, but no matter what, it all gets better! >4. Is Dr. Price REALLY concluding that much of society's criminals >are merely nutritionally deficient? Does he truly ignore the >possibility of moral choices? well, now wait a minute. think about it this way: do you know anyone, truly, who desires to make *bad* decisions? isn't everyone just trying to do the best they can in any given moment? doesn't everyone want to be happy? even the heroine addict - they're just trying to find some happy. the problem is, a heroine addict is in a completely altered state of mind. so the decisions that they are making may *seem* like good decisions to them, because robbing that old lady will get them more smack which will take away the pain...that's not really a moral choice. if you think that most people who are making bad choices are making moral decisions, you're being too hard on them. certainly there's a small percentage of people who make bad decisions purposefully - let's say, ken lay of enron fame. then again, if you were inside his head, he too has some issues that are leading him to be able to think those decisions are pretty good in the long run... so, if everyone were well-nourished, sure, we'd still have some bad decisions running around. people would still do politically motivated, greed motivated, vengeance motivated things. people would still act based on the situations that they're in. but bad decisions would be less of an epidemic, i propose. -katja Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 11, 2004 Report Share Posted August 11, 2004 > >(((sigh))) The real test of my own emotional stability will be >taking my kids in to visit the doctor and resisting the urge to slap >him. > >Danelle in Kansas, the WHEAT state of course one other thing, danelle - just don't take them to the doctor/dentist/orthodontist. what does he need your money for anyway? are your kids actually *sick*? and if they are, do they *really* need anitbiotics, or will a few days in bed with some herbal tea take care of it? dime to a donut you don't need that doctor - and he can keep the donut, cause i don't want it! -katja Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 11, 2004 Report Share Posted August 11, 2004 hi, danielle... first, breathe... >2. How will changing the diet effect my 15ds, 11dd, and 9dd with >regards to their dental health? Will their teeth gradually become >resistant to dental carries? Are they young enough their arches >might actually change over the next few years, or should we continue >with our current plan of orthodontic intervention? well, first off, do they really need orthodontics? my teeth are all crunched and i can chew fine. we didn't have money, so i still have crooked teeth. and lots of people think i'm pretty anyway. so skip the orthodontics! secondly, i have some personal experience that could help you: in february, i made a dentist appt for a cavity with a very busy dentist. the appt was for three months later. on feb 26, we went gluten free. the first week of april i cancelled the appointment cause the cavity had healed. so, there ya go. >3. Can the mental " injuries " be reversed by diet? Long story, but >what little I've read has certainly shed light on relatives with >violent outbursts of anger, mental instability . . . unpredictable >and irrational thought processes. absolutely! those of us on the list that are gluten free all have stories of how much sanity was reclaimed just by going gluten free. my husband, who went on ritalin as an adult at one point (but off it again in 6 months cause of the side effects) saw his ADD completely *go away* on a gluten free diet. once he ate some gluten without realizing it (he didn't realize that crab cakes had flour!) and was a complete dip for the next few days. that proved it!! some things get better with gluten-free-ness and then again more better with good nutrition and sometimes some supplements to help along the way, but no matter what, it all gets better! >4. Is Dr. Price REALLY concluding that much of society's criminals >are merely nutritionally deficient? Does he truly ignore the >possibility of moral choices? well, now wait a minute. think about it this way: do you know anyone, truly, who desires to make *bad* decisions? isn't everyone just trying to do the best they can in any given moment? doesn't everyone want to be happy? even the heroine addict - they're just trying to find some happy. the problem is, a heroine addict is in a completely altered state of mind. so the decisions that they are making may *seem* like good decisions to them, because robbing that old lady will get them more smack which will take away the pain...that's not really a moral choice. if you think that most people who are making bad choices are making moral decisions, you're being too hard on them. certainly there's a small percentage of people who make bad decisions purposefully - let's say, ken lay of enron fame. then again, if you were inside his head, he too has some issues that are leading him to be able to think those decisions are pretty good in the long run... so, if everyone were well-nourished, sure, we'd still have some bad decisions running around. people would still do politically motivated, greed motivated, vengeance motivated things. people would still act based on the situations that they're in. but bad decisions would be less of an epidemic, i propose. -katja Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 11, 2004 Report Share Posted August 11, 2004 > So, until I can regain control over my emotions long enough to read > all 500+ pages, will you be kind enough to summarize Dr. Price's > conclusions? Thank you for your very serious and thoughtful replies! I have managed to calm down enough to get through the first few chapters and your summaries will certainly inspire me to wade through the rest of the book. Dh is sold on the diet after just looking at all the pictures--I'll have to try that on the kids! Danelle in Kansas, patiently reading Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 11, 2004 Report Share Posted August 11, 2004 At 09:46 AM 8/11/2004, you wrote: > >>>>>> > >But a whole lot of it depends on genetics, likely. What is good for >an Italian peasant doesn't necessarily work for an Irish person. > >>>>>> > >Bingo! Wouldn't an racially pure Irishman have to eat his OWN >prmitive diet? What does this mean for the rest of us . . . of the >Heinz57 variety? I can see how this " theory " can be taken to such >an extreme that it becomes totally impractical. I'm leaning toward >the ol' standbys of moderation, variety, and balance, all based on >whole food from sources of integrity. well, i should note here that it must be remembered that the italians only eat pasta for very special occasions, and some never eat it. the american impression that italians eat spaghetti every night is completely bogus. what they DO [traditionally] eat is seafood, butter, cheese, and lactofermented veggies (a la " anti-pasto " ). caveat: just like the rest of the world, what " they do eat " this generation is becoming poptarts and uncleben's. so frankly, what's working for an italian and an irishwoman is pretty much the same. -katja Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 11, 2004 Report Share Posted August 11, 2004 > -----Original Message----- > From: Suze Fisher [mailto:s.fisher22@...] > > Also, FWIW, many natural-rearing dog breeders are finding > that it takes about 3 generations to restore dogs to an > excellent level of health and disease-resistance on an > improved diet and lifestyle. I wonder if the short lifespan of dogs is a factor here. How long is a generation? One year? Two? Who's to say that it's a set number of generations that's required to patch things up, rather than a certain amount of time? Although there are certain things that you can't change once you're past a certain age, many people have been able to effect radical improvements in their own health through a few years, or even a few months, of good diet. This is purely speculation on my part, but my guess is that you can do pretty darn well if you fix up your diet a few years before conception. Is there anyone here who's been at this long enough to confirm or refute? > Masterjohn has > posted about the drastic changes in his mental health as a > result of switching to a WAP/NT diet from a vegetarian diet. > IIRC he had been having episodes of extreme paranoia and > anxiety in which he thought someone was trying to poison him, > and I think he had some other unusal " mental " stuff going on > that he mentioned. Not long after he began eating a diet rich > in animal foods literally all of this went away. On the other hand, he's a libertarian, so you really have to question whether his mental problems went away or just changed forms. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 11, 2004 Report Share Posted August 11, 2004 > > I can't summarize the information in Price's book > > as I've never read it (actually, not even heard > > of it until - isn't that a hoot!) > > You really, really should read it. It pretty much answers > Danelle's questions. I'll try As for the rest of your posting, if I read it correctly, we seem to be saying pretty much the same things. Glad to see we're on the same track. Geoffrey Tolle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 11, 2004 Report Share Posted August 11, 2004 > >> one other thing, danelle - > just don't take them to the doctor/dentist/orthodontist. what does he need > your money for anyway? are your kids actually *sick*? and if they are, do > they *really* need anitbiotics, or will a few days in bed with some herbal > tea take care of it? dime to a donut you don't need that doctor - and he > can keep the donut, cause i don't want it! > > -katja Well, we'll be easing our way into home health care, just as we are easing our way into our new diet, in fact, the two things go hand-in- hand. However, our dental visits will have to continue until we actually achieve good health: my children do not have healthy teeth, they are currently subject to dental caries, and we are going to have to make some course corrections with orthodontics. We are considering altering the timing of our interventions, however the fact remains that two of them have small arches and definitely not enough room for all their permanent teeth. I do believe that at some point in the future I will be able to adjust their dental cleanings down to yearly visits, and perhaps even our adult visits can be spaced every two years or so. Can't avoid SOME consequences, even doctors and dentists! Danelle in Kansas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 11, 2004 Report Share Posted August 11, 2004 I suppose all this begs this question for me, is it possible to overcome bad genetics and bad eating habits with diet, in regards to teeth. I had and still have to a great extent rotten eating habits and I'm trying to change them. My older child has perfectly rotten baby teeth. All of them have had cavities even though we're religious about brushing and brushing well. The younger has never had one and is a little sugar addict. My son's dentistry work is costing us a small fortune. He's got practically every molar crowned now. (And isn't there some concern about what those are made out of?) I guess what disturbs me is that he was such a bright and advanced baby, but once he started eating table food (aka, SAD) he developed language difficulties, asthma, incessant ear infections, rotten teeth and attentional issues. Are this all capable of being impacted by diet? If so, what specifics? I've lost so much faith in the medical profession that I'm terrified to even dream of asking what I can do holistically and dietary wise to impact them. Regarding his teeth, all his dentist would say was " Some kids just have rotten baby teeth " with a shrug. I can't afford his rotten teeth and now it's becoming his permanents too. Grrr! There has to be a better answer than having cavity repair done every 6 months. Incidentally, both kids are facing braces from overcrowding too. (rolls eyes) More money we don't have for dental work. Anyway, input or suggestions would be most welcome. I'd love to talk at length with any parent who's addressed these issues with their children's health, via email (recktenwald@...) so it doesn't spam the list too much. TIA! Amy <heidis@t...> wrote: > > >1. How many generations does it take to RESTORE genetic health? > >Assuming my children (and their spouses) eat right, will my > >grandkids be incredibly healthy specimens? Or do I have to wait for > >my great-grandchildren? > > I can't say for sure, but I have on interesting test case in my > family. My two kids are very different: the oldest was a healthy, > " normal " kid who got lots of SAD snacks her first 5 years of life. > > The second had major health problems when born, and as a result has been > fed by G-tube all his life. But otherwise he's pretty normal. But he's > never got normal SAD food. > > The first has narrow dental arches, tho they don't seem to be getting > worse and may be getting better. She also has thin enamel, which is likely > due to me having gluten problems while she was in utero. > > The second, however, does NOT have narrow arches. His teeth are > widely spaced, to the extent they looked abnormal to me til I looked > at the pictures in Price's book. His diet is not incredibly wonderful, high > brix, etc. But he's never got any kind of wheat, and his dairy now is > all kefired, and the meat is grass fed. > > Both kids have been eating decent food the last 2-3 years. They have > great dispositions and are really HAPPY kids. Very healthy looking too. > > Given that in this case, both parents have narrow arches, are neurotic, > not fed well, the fact this kid " recovered " so fast makes me think it's > not an impossible feat. This kid has had major strikes against him, but > the " diet factor " seems to have overcome most of them. Mind you, most > kids in his position are fed a canned formula of corn syrup, soy protein > and vitamins (can you spell " Soylent Green? " ) and are also in and out of > the hospital on a regular basis. His " permanent teeth " seem to have > decent enamel on them too. > > Sooo ... my anectdotal conclusions are that if you keep the food allergens > out of the picture, kids recover pretty quick. The baby teeth are goners > if the mother is gluten intolerant and ate gluten during pregnancy. The brain > can recover if a good diet is started fairly early in childhood. But a whole lot > of it depends on genetics, likely. What is good for an Italian peasant doesn't > necessarily work for an Irish person. > > Now, a kid damaged by gluten intolerance (in our case) is not in fact > " genetically damaged " as Price supposed. That person is very, very low in > certain nutrients, because they can't absorb them, and that damages > fetuses. But it is very reversible, because usually the DNA isn't damaged. > -- Heidi Jean Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 11, 2004 Report Share Posted August 11, 2004 I don't know... I must be one of those REALLY unlucky people then, since I gain weight like crazy with carbs - and I'm Chinese! Totally pure-blooded Chinese... although my mom is overweight (from carbs or all the sugar she eats or her erratic eating habits, I don't know; she does pretty strenuous housework though) and my dad practically lives on white rice. I've never actually tried eating totally traditional Chinese with no sugar or fast food so I really can't say what would happen, but I'm afraid to try. Maybe someday when I get over myself I'll experiment with it, but for now I think I'll hold off the rice for just a little bit longer Plus, there's the problem of defining what exactly traditional Chinese is.... Nina > >>>>>> > >But a whole lot of it depends on genetics, likely. What is good for > an Italian peasant doesn't necessarily work for an Irish person. > >>>>>> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 11, 2004 Report Share Posted August 11, 2004 Greetings, Don't underestimate the value of enlightened orthodontics. The kind that opens the palette and corrects the bite. If the bite is off the entire immune system and other basic systems of the body can be thrown out of whack. Unfortunately there are not a lot of orthodontists out there practicing the good kind of restorative work and it is not cheap. The Foundation has a link to a group that does this kind of work and there is at least one other professional association I have heard of. Best, Christapher Re: W. A. Price, abridged hi, danielle... first, breathe... >2. How will changing the diet effect my 15ds, 11dd, and 9dd with >regards to their dental health? Will their teeth gradually become >resistant to dental carries? Are they young enough their arches >might actually change over the next few years, or should we continue >with our current plan of orthodontic intervention? well, first off, do they really need orthodontics? my teeth are all crunched and i can chew fine. we didn't have money, so i still have crooked teeth. and lots of people think i'm pretty anyway. so skip the orthodontics! secondly, i have some personal experience that could help you: in february, i made a dentist appt for a cavity with a very busy dentist. the appt was for three months later. on feb 26, we went gluten free. the first week of april i cancelled the appointment cause the cavity had healed. so, there ya go. >3. Can the mental " injuries " be reversed by diet? Long story, but >what little I've read has certainly shed light on relatives with >violent outbursts of anger, mental instability . . . unpredictable >and irrational thought processes. absolutely! those of us on the list that are gluten free all have stories of how much sanity was reclaimed just by going gluten free. my husband, who went on ritalin as an adult at one point (but off it again in 6 months cause of the side effects) saw his ADD completely *go away* on a gluten free diet. once he ate some gluten without realizing it (he didn't realize that crab cakes had flour!) and was a complete dip for the next few days. that proved it!! some things get better with gluten-free-ness and then again more better with good nutrition and sometimes some supplements to help along the way, but no matter what, it all gets better! >4. Is Dr. Price REALLY concluding that much of society's criminals >are merely nutritionally deficient? Does he truly ignore the >possibility of moral choices? well, now wait a minute. think about it this way: do you know anyone, truly, who desires to make *bad* decisions? isn't everyone just trying to do the best they can in any given moment? doesn't everyone want to be happy? even the heroine addict - they're just trying to find some happy. the problem is, a heroine addict is in a completely altered state of mind. so the decisions that they are making may *seem* like good decisions to them, because robbing that old lady will get them more smack which will take away the pain...that's not really a moral choice. if you think that most people who are making bad choices are making moral decisions, you're being too hard on them. certainly there's a small percentage of people who make bad decisions purposefully - let's say, ken lay of enron fame. then again, if you were inside his head, he too has some issues that are leading him to be able to think those decisions are pretty good in the long run... so, if everyone were well-nourished, sure, we'd still have some bad decisions running around. people would still do politically motivated, greed motivated, vengeance motivated things. people would still act based on the situations that they're in. but bad decisions would be less of an epidemic, i propose. -katja Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 12, 2004 Report Share Posted August 12, 2004 > RE: W. A. Price, abridged > > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Suze Fisher [mailto:s.fisher22@...] >> >> Also, FWIW, many natural-rearing dog breeders are finding >> that it takes about 3 generations to restore dogs to an >> excellent level of health and disease-resistance on an >> improved diet and lifestyle. > >I wonder if the short lifespan of dogs is a factor here. How long is a >generation? One year? Two? Around there, I think. Who's to say that it's a set number of >generations that's required to patch things up, rather than a >certain amount >of time? Well, it seems that each healthier generation has a better opportunity to bring an even healthier generation forth. It just seems that it would be hard for a long-time SADer to get healthy enough to produce offspring that could be as healthy as the offspring of folks who eat a high quality WAP-style diet their whole lives and who's parents did as well - giving them the all important superior beginnings (healthy gene expression, wide dental arches, etc). Although there are certain things that you can't change >once you're >past a certain age, many people have been able to effect radical >improvements in their own health through a few years, or even a few months, >of good diet. This is purely speculation on my part, but my guess is that >you can do pretty darn well if you fix up your diet a few years before >conception. Is there anyone here who's been at this long enough to confirm >or refute? Well, I think the time frame would really vary a lot between individuals. Those with serious chronich heatlh problems could take a lot longer to get truly healthy if that is indeed doable considering that our food quality is generally poor. I mean, I've been into this way of eating for a couple of years but still have health issues, despite improvements in some areas. > >> Masterjohn has >> posted about the drastic changes in his mental health as a >> result of switching to a WAP/NT diet from a vegetarian diet. >> IIRC he had been having episodes of extreme paranoia and >> anxiety in which he thought someone was trying to poison him, >> and I think he had some other unusal " mental " stuff going on >> that he mentioned. Not long after he began eating a diet rich >> in animal foods literally all of this went away. > >On the other hand, he's a libertarian, so you really have to question >whether his mental problems went away or just changed forms. Good point! However, his mental issues cleared up *before* he became a libertarian. Or maybe they just went dormant until he had a better outlet like libertarianism. <g> Suze Fisher Lapdog Design, Inc. Web Design & Development http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine http://www.westonaprice.org ---------------------------- " The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times. " -- Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher. The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics <http://www.thincs.org> ---------------------------- > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 12, 2004 Report Share Posted August 12, 2004 >Bingo! Wouldn't an racially pure Irishman have to eat his OWN >prmitive diet? What does this mean for the rest of us . . . of the >Heinz57 variety? I can see how this " theory " can be taken to such >an extreme that it becomes totally impractical. I'm leaning toward >the ol' standbys of moderation, variety, and balance, all based on >whole food from sources of integrity. Well, I don't much go on " theories " ... I like science, when possible! There are some good tests available now so a person can tell at least some of the problematic foods. And you can learn a lot from history and archeology. And talking to your grandparents. But in the case of Irish and Italians, there is a gene that is rare in Italians and common in the Irish, that predisposes to gluten intolerance. Interestingly, it is also common in " Irish Setters " which often get sick off wheat containing dog food! Also interestingly, in Ireland and England, the thin face is considered " aristocratic " while the peasant face was normally " course " and broad. What I didn't know, but learned recently, is that peasants normally ate potatoes. They farmed grain too, but that was reserved for the Lords and Ladies. -- Heidi Jean Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 12, 2004 Report Share Posted August 12, 2004 >>4. Is Dr. Price REALLY concluding that much of society's criminals >>are merely nutritionally deficient? Does he truly ignore the >>possibility of moral choices? Actually there was a good study in the English prison system, where they fed the inmates vitamin pills daily. The violence rate went way down. Now, if in fact violence is related to nutrition, and society refuses to, say, fund programs to help people learn to eat right, and in fact markets foods that are nutrient deficient, then where does the moral choice lay? The inmates in the prisons really, truly have no choice about what they eat. But the folks running the prisons could feed them better food, or even just a vitamin, for heaven's sake. But I haven't heard that, after that study, any prison has changed it's food. The prison system is still built on the belief that folks should be " punished " for their misdeeds, though the evidence is that all the punishment in the world doesn't help. When studies show things that DO help (nutrition, helping children from " at risk " families, drug treatment) they are typically ignored, because, again, the focus is punishment. -- Heidi Jean Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 12, 2004 Report Share Posted August 12, 2004 >I don't know... I must be one of those REALLY unlucky people then, >since I gain weight like crazy with carbs - and I'm Chinese! Totally >pure-blooded Chinese... although my mom is overweight (from carbs or >all the sugar she eats or her erratic eating habits, I don't know; >she does pretty strenuous housework though) and my dad practically >lives on white rice. I've never actually tried eating totally >traditional Chinese with no sugar or fast food so I really can't say >what would happen, but I'm afraid to try. I don't know any really traditional Chinese ... but from what I've seen it seems that the older generations (no Western food) didn't get fat from all that rice. Now there is more of an obesity problem (though nothing near as bad as America). My family eats a fair bit of rice, esp. my dh ... but he's lost weight (and his other problems) since we dropped the wheat and junk food. Price had several cultures who did fine on high-carb diets ... but got sick once they ate " white flour and sugar " . However, the KIND of rice has also changed, as have corn and beans. The Piima (?) indians did fine on corn and beans, and the people of that race that eat the *old* corn and beans still do fine. But not on the modernized versions of those foods. The way they digest has changed via breeding. -- Heidi Jean Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 12, 2004 Report Share Posted August 12, 2004 > Re: W. A. Price, abridged > > > >>>4. Is Dr. Price REALLY concluding that much of society's criminals >>>are merely nutritionally deficient? Does he truly ignore the >>>possibility of moral choices? > >Actually there was a good study in the English prison system, >where they fed the inmates vitamin pills daily. The violence >rate went way down. And then there was that school lunch program where they stopped feeding institutaional " food " and replaced it with real whole foods from local farms, IIRC, and the behavior of the student body improved to where the teachers were just amazed. Suze Fisher Lapdog Design, Inc. Web Design & Development http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine http://www.westonaprice.org ---------------------------- " The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times. " -- Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher. The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics <http://www.thincs.org> ---------------------------- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 13, 2004 Report Share Posted August 13, 2004 >And then there was that school lunch program where they stopped feeding >institutaional " food " and replaced it with real whole foods from local >farms, IIRC, and the behavior of the student body improved to where the >teachers were just amazed. > > >Suze Fisher Yeah, but that is un-American ... it was catered by some small health-food outfit and didn't help Ritalin sales at all ... -- Heidi Jean Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 14, 2004 Report Share Posted August 14, 2004 Heidi stated: Now, if in fact violence is related to nutrition, and society refuses to, say, fund programs to help people learn to eat right, and in fact markets foods that are nutrient deficient, then where does the moral choice lay? The inmates in the prisons really, truly have no choice about what they eat. But the folks running the prisons could feed them better food, or even just a vitamin, for heaven's sake. But I haven't heard that, after that study, any prison has changed it's food. The prison system is still built on the belief that folks should be " punished " for their misdeeds, though the evidence is that all the punishment in the world doesn't help. When studies show things that DO help (nutrition, helping children from " at risk " families, drug treatment) they are typically ignored, because, again, the focus is punishment. -- Heidi Jean Punishment, vengeance, absolute good and evil, and that really cool myth, original sin, are all religious specialties of our culture. These deeply ingrained beliefs always put compassion to the back of the bus and are ignorantly clung to in spite of any evidence to the contrary. We live in profoundly irrational times, but goodness and beauty get short shrift as well. jo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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