Guest guest Posted July 9, 2008 Report Share Posted July 9, 2008 Hi Jo, I must admit that I have not worked with a lot of seizure disorders, not being a clinician. When I have, I have generally used C3/C4 with 2-5 hz down and 23-38 Hz down and 12-15 hz reward--a variant of the original Sterman protocol--or T3/T4, same rewards and inhibits--which was the one the Othmers recommended when I was learning from them. With the few clients I have trained, many of them home trainers, these have produced successful, if not rapid, results. There are also approaches based on QEEG (I've generally done a TLC on the folks with whom I have worked). Most of the time these tend to show very great slowing, which we would expect with seizure disorders. With a Q, it may be possible to find the focus of the seizure...or not. I'd be interested in any listmates who have worked with seizures and what they've done and how it worked. Pete If I understand you correctly, you have recommended C4/A2/A1,Cz/A2/A1 or T3/T4/A1 rewarding smr inhibiting something like 2-7Hz and 23-38Hz for Seizure Disorder.But do you do TLC assessment as well? If you do, what will you be looking at with the assessment? Please advise anything about dealing with seizure. ..-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.com 305/433-3160The Learning Curve, Inc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 9, 2008 Report Share Posted July 9, 2008 Pete, Thank you for such a quick response. Please clarify that you mean C3/C4 biplorer like C3/C4/A1. Assessment could find the focus of the seizure which according to Mark we should avoid, couldn't it? Jo 2008/7/9, Van Deusen : Hi Jo, I must admit that I have not worked with a lot of seizure disorders, not being a clinician. When I have, I have generally used C3/C4 with 2-5 hz down and 23-38 Hz down and 12-15 hz reward--a variant of the original Sterman protocol--or T3/T4, same rewards and inhibits--which was the one the Othmers recommended when I was learning from them. With the few clients I have trained, many of them home trainers, these have produced successful, if not rapid, results. There are also approaches based on QEEG (I've generally done a TLC on the folks with whom I have worked). Most of the time these tend to show very great slowing, which we would expect with seizure disorders. With a Q, it may be possible to find the focus of the seizure...or not. I'd be interested in any listmates who have worked with seizures and what they've done and how it worked. Pete If I understand you correctly, you have recommended C4/A2/A1,Cz/A2/A1 or T3/T4/A1 rewarding smr inhibiting something like 2-7Hz and 23-38Hz for Seizure Disorder.But do you do TLC assessment as well? If you do, what will you be looking at with the assessment? Please advise anything about dealing with seizure. .. -- Van Deusenpvdtlc@... http://www.brain-trainer.com305/433-3160The Learning Curve, Inc. -- ÆüËܥ˥塼¥í¥Õ¥£¡¼¥É¥Ð¥Ã¥¯º´Æ£¡¡¾ù·ÈÂÓ¡¡090-7302-1282·ÈÂӥ᡼¥ë¡¡neurofeedback@... ¥Û¡¼¥à¥Ú¡¼¥¸¡¡http://neurofeedback.jp/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 9, 2008 Report Share Posted July 9, 2008 Hello Jo! I'd start with a TLC, go with SMR training at C4/A2 Go with inhibiting slow wave (delta, and especially theta) anywhere it's high, while also rewarding SMR on the right. Seizures are quite complex, this approach helps for some... Re: Seizure Disorder Pete, Thank you for such a quick response. Please clarify that you mean C3/C4 biplorer like C3/C4/A1. Assessment could find the focus of the seizure which according to Mark we should avoid, couldn't it? Jo 2008/7/9, Van Deusen <pvdtlcgmail>: Hi Jo, I must admit that I have not worked with a lot of seizure disorders, not being a clinician. When I have, I have generally used C3/C4 with 2-5 hz down and 23-38 Hz down and 12-15 hz reward--a variant of the original Sterman protocol--or T3/T4, same rewards and inhibits--which was the one the Othmers recommended when I was learning from them. With the few clients I have trained, many of them home trainers, these have produced successful, if not rapid, results. There are also approaches based on QEEG (I've generally done a TLC on the folks with whom I have worked). Most of the time these tend to show very great slowing, which we would expect with seizure disorders. With a Q, it may be possible to find the focus of the seizure...or not. I'd be interested in any listmates who have worked with seizures and what they've done and how it worked. Pete On Wed, Jul 9, 2008 at 4:12 AM, sato3jp <sato3jpgmail> wrote: If I understand you correctly, you have recommended C4/A2/A1,Cz/A2/A1 or T3/T4/A1 rewarding smr inhibiting something like 2-7Hz and 23-38Hz for Seizure Disorder.But do you do TLC assessment as well? If you do, what will you be looking at with the assessment? Please advise anything about dealing with seizure. .. -- Van Deusenpvdtlcgmailhttp://www.brain-trainer.com305/433-3160The Learning Curve, Inc. -- ÆüËܥ˥塼¥í¥Õ¥£¡¼¥É¥Ð¥Ã¥¯º´Æ£¡¡¾ù·ÈÂÓ¡¡090-7302-1282·ÈÂӥ᡼¥ë¡¡neurofeedbackdocomo (DOT) ne.jp¥Û¡¼¥à¥Ú¡¼¥¸¡¡http://neurofeedback.jp/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 9, 2008 Report Share Posted July 9, 2008 Jo, Yes, C3/C4 would be a bipolar one-channel design. And yes, you might find the seizure focus with a TLC. Working around that would be okay, but not working directly over it. Pete 2008/7/9 º´Æ£¾ù sato3jp@...: Thank you for such a quick response. Please clarify that you mean C3/C4 biplorer like C3/C4/A1. Assessment could find the focus of the seizure which according to Mark we should avoid, couldn't it? .._ -- Van Deusenpvdtlc@... http://www.brain-trainer.com305/433-3160The Learning Curve, Inc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 9, 2008 Report Share Posted July 9, 2008 Pete and , Thank you for your replies. Pete, would you explain why you recommend C3/C4 instead of C4/A2? Jo 08/07/09 ¤Ë Van Deusen ¤µ¤ó¤Ï½ñ¤¤Þ¤·¤¿: Jo, Yes, C3/C4 would be a bipolar one-channel design. And yes, you might find the seizure focus with a TLC. Working around that would be okay, but not working directly over it. Pete 2008/7/9 º´Æ£¾ù sato3jp@...: Thank you for such a quick response. Please clarify that you mean C3/C4 biplorer like C3/C4/A1. Assessment could find the focus of the seizure which according to Mark we should avoid, couldn't it? .._ -- Van Deusenpvdtlc@... http://www.brain-trainer.com305/433-3160The Learning Curve, Inc. -- ÆüËܥ˥塼¥í¥Õ¥£¡¼¥É¥Ð¥Ã¥¯º´Æ£¡¡¾ù·ÈÂÓ¡¡090-7302-1282·ÈÂӥ᡼¥ë¡¡neurofeedback@... ¥Û¡¼¥à¥Ú¡¼¥¸¡¡http://neurofeedback.jp/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 9, 2008 Report Share Posted July 9, 2008 Pete and , Thank you for your replies. Pete, would you explain why you recommend C3/C4 instead of C4/A2? Jo 08/07/09 ¤Ë Van Deusen ¤µ¤ó¤Ï½ñ¤¤Þ¤·¤¿: Jo, Yes, C3/C4 would be a bipolar one-channel design. And yes, you might find the seizure focus with a TLC. Working around that would be okay, but not working directly over it. Pete 2008/7/9 º´Æ£¾ù sato3jp@...: Thank you for such a quick response. Please clarify that you mean C3/C4 biplorer like C3/C4/A1. Assessment could find the focus of the seizure which according to Mark we should avoid, couldn't it? .._ -- Van Deusenpvdtlc@... http://www.brain-trainer.com305/433-3160The Learning Curve, Inc. -- ÆüËܥ˥塼¥í¥Õ¥£¡¼¥É¥Ð¥Ã¥¯º´Æ£¡¡¾ù·ÈÂÓ¡¡090-7302-1282·ÈÂӥ᡼¥ë¡¡neurofeedback@... ¥Û¡¼¥à¥Ú¡¼¥¸¡¡http://neurofeedback.jp/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 10, 2008 Report Share Posted July 10, 2008 I have worked with a few seizures and have used the C4 and or Cz with great success so far I have not used the C3 Interestingly Even when the seizure disorder was found in T3 I still used the C4 and seizures stopped and she is off meds. (used her smr bandwidth not 12-15 as she was only 9) Have used the same on others as well ALways the wide inhibit Never worked on adult with seizures have all been kids so far until recently I now have a new challenge that has not come in yet that a 24yo had surgery due to seizures and the surgery did not work will keep you posted on the outcome of that one! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 10, 2008 Report Share Posted July 10, 2008 I have worked with a few seizures and have used the C4 and or Cz with great success so far I have not used the C3 Interestingly Even when the seizure disorder was found in T3 I still used the C4 and seizures stopped and she is off meds. (used her smr bandwidth not 12-15 as she was only 9) Have used the same on others as well ALways the wide inhibit Never worked on adult with seizures have all been kids so far until recently I now have a new challenge that has not come in yet that a 24yo had surgery due to seizures and the surgery did not work will keep you posted on the outcome of that one! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 10, 2008 Report Share Posted July 10, 2008 Sharrie, Thank you for your post. What was her smr, if is was not 12-15Hz? How did you find it? Did you do assessment to her? Jo 2008/7/10, Sharrie Hanley : I have worked with a few seizures and have used the C4 and or Cz with great success so far I have not used the C3 Interestingly Even when the seizure disorder was found in T3 I still used the C4 and seizures stopped and she is off meds. (used her smr bandwidth not 12-15 as she was only 9) Have used the same on others as well ALways the wide inhibit Never worked on adult with seizures have all been kids so far until recently I now have a new challenge that has not come in yet that a 24yo had surgery due to seizures and the surgery did not work will keep you posted on the outcome of that one! -- ÆüËܥ˥塼¥í¥Õ¥£¡¼¥É¥Ð¥Ã¥¯º´Æ£¡¡¾ù ·ÈÂÓ¡¡090-7302-1282·ÈÂӥ᡼¥ë¡¡neurofeedback@...¥Û¡¼¥à¥Ú¡¼¥¸¡¡http://neurofeedback.jp/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 10, 2008 Report Share Posted July 10, 2008 Sharrie, Thank you for your post. What was her smr, if is was not 12-15Hz? How did you find it? Did you do assessment to her? Jo 2008/7/10, Sharrie Hanley : I have worked with a few seizures and have used the C4 and or Cz with great success so far I have not used the C3 Interestingly Even when the seizure disorder was found in T3 I still used the C4 and seizures stopped and she is off meds. (used her smr bandwidth not 12-15 as she was only 9) Have used the same on others as well ALways the wide inhibit Never worked on adult with seizures have all been kids so far until recently I now have a new challenge that has not come in yet that a 24yo had surgery due to seizures and the surgery did not work will keep you posted on the outcome of that one! -- ÆüËܥ˥塼¥í¥Õ¥£¡¼¥É¥Ð¥Ã¥¯º´Æ£¡¡¾ù ·ÈÂÓ¡¡090-7302-1282·ÈÂӥ᡼¥ë¡¡neurofeedback@...¥Û¡¼¥à¥Ú¡¼¥¸¡¡http://neurofeedback.jp/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 21, 2008 Report Share Posted August 21, 2008 I have lower the reward frequency to 8-11Hz. The seizure is getting less frequent, but he started to vomit. Does vomitting related to the training? Should I change the site, frequency? Jo 2008/8/9, sato3jp : Pete and others,I have started to train a boy of 7year old with seisure disorder.I used C4/A2/A1 inhibiting 2-7Hz and 23-38Hz, rewarding 10-13Hz at C4.It seems worsen the seisure. So I changed the site to Cz and lowered the reward to 8.5Hz-11.5. He moved his legs a lot. Do you think the reward frequency is still too high? Can I lower it?Jo Sato -- ÆüËܥ˥塼¥í¥Õ¥£¡¼¥É¥Ð¥Ã¥¯º´Æ£¡¡¾ù ·ÈÂÓ¡¡090-7302-1282·ÈÂӥ᡼¥ë¡¡neurofeedback@...¥Û¡¼¥à¥Ú¡¼¥¸¡¡http://neurofeedback.jp/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 21, 2008 Report Share Posted August 21, 2008 I have lower the reward frequency to 8-11Hz. The seizure is getting less frequent, but he started to vomit. Does vomitting related to the training? Should I change the site, frequency? Jo 2008/8/9, sato3jp : Pete and others,I have started to train a boy of 7year old with seisure disorder.I used C4/A2/A1 inhibiting 2-7Hz and 23-38Hz, rewarding 10-13Hz at C4.It seems worsen the seisure. So I changed the site to Cz and lowered the reward to 8.5Hz-11.5. He moved his legs a lot. Do you think the reward frequency is still too high? Can I lower it?Jo Sato -- ÆüËܥ˥塼¥í¥Õ¥£¡¼¥É¥Ð¥Ã¥¯º´Æ£¡¡¾ù ·ÈÂÓ¡¡090-7302-1282·ÈÂӥ᡼¥ë¡¡neurofeedback@...¥Û¡¼¥à¥Ú¡¼¥¸¡¡http://neurofeedback.jp/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 21, 2008 Report Share Posted August 21, 2008 I have lower the reward frequency to 8-11Hz. The seizure is getting less frequent, but he started to vomit. Does vomitting related to the training? Should I change the site, frequency? Jo 2008/8/9, sato3jp : Pete and others,I have started to train a boy of 7year old with seisure disorder.I used C4/A2/A1 inhibiting 2-7Hz and 23-38Hz, rewarding 10-13Hz at C4.It seems worsen the seisure. So I changed the site to Cz and lowered the reward to 8.5Hz-11.5. He moved his legs a lot. Do you think the reward frequency is still too high? Can I lower it?Jo Sato -- ÆüËܥ˥塼¥í¥Õ¥£¡¼¥É¥Ð¥Ã¥¯º´Æ£¡¡¾ù ·ÈÂÓ¡¡090-7302-1282·ÈÂӥ᡼¥ë¡¡neurofeedback@...¥Û¡¼¥à¥Ú¡¼¥¸¡¡http://neurofeedback.jp/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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