Re: Re: Too much alpha?

[Guest guest]

Noah,

If it's in the temporals, it's temporal alpha The temporal lobes produce a field which is picked up by the references at A1 and A2 or M1 and M2. So if there is a lot of alpha in the temporals, it can show up in the calculation of alpha at all other sites referenced against the earlobe or mastoid sites.

Pete

Is excessive Alpha @ C3/C4 that also flows down to the ears considered " Temporal Alpha " - Noah> >> > I am training my son at C3. He seems to consistantly have alpha> > issues. Alpha is always the highest wave. Means after his last> > training were as follows.

> >> > 13 - delta> > 16 - theta> > 20 - alpha> > 8 - SMR> > 10 - beta - (13-19)> >> > Am treating my son for severe organizational issues and attention> > issues.> >> > C4/smr training made him exhausted. C3/beta training made him more> > motivated and happier but now he can not sleep.> >> > I am working with a supervisor who will guide me but I just wondered> > if anyone had a similar situation.> >> > Does anyone think alpha is an issue here? Demos said in his book> > that many kids with ADD have excess alpha not theta. Has anyone seen> > this? If so, how is it treated?> >> > Thanks so much, Connie> >> >> >> >> > -- > > Van Deusen> > pvdtlc@... <mailto:

pvdtlc@...>> > http://www.brain-trainer.com <

http://www.brain-trainer.com>> > 305/433-3160> > The Learning Curve, Inc.> > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------> >> > No virus found in this incoming message.

> > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > > Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.8/1154 - Release Date: 11/27/2007 11:40 AM> >>

-- Van Deusen

pvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.com305/433-3160The Learning Curve, Inc.

[Guest guest]

Noah,

If it's in the temporals, it's temporal alpha The temporal lobes produce a field which is picked up by the references at A1 and A2 or M1 and M2. So if there is a lot of alpha in the temporals, it can show up in the calculation of alpha at all other sites referenced against the earlobe or mastoid sites.

Pete

Is excessive Alpha @ C3/C4 that also flows down to the ears considered " Temporal Alpha " - Noah> >> > I am training my son at C3. He seems to consistantly have alpha> > issues. Alpha is always the highest wave. Means after his last> > training were as follows.

> >> > 13 - delta> > 16 - theta> > 20 - alpha> > 8 - SMR> > 10 - beta - (13-19)> >> > Am treating my son for severe organizational issues and attention> > issues.> >> > C4/smr training made him exhausted. C3/beta training made him more> > motivated and happier but now he can not sleep.> >> > I am working with a supervisor who will guide me but I just wondered> > if anyone had a similar situation.> >> > Does anyone think alpha is an issue here? Demos said in his book> > that many kids with ADD have excess alpha not theta. Has anyone seen> > this? If so, how is it treated?> >> > Thanks so much, Connie> >> >> >> >> > -- > > Van Deusen> > pvdtlc@... <mailto:

pvdtlc@...>> > http://www.brain-trainer.com <

http://www.brain-trainer.com>> > 305/433-3160> > The Learning Curve, Inc.> > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------> >> > No virus found in this incoming message.

> > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > > Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.8/1154 - Release Date: 11/27/2007 11:40 AM> >>

-- Van Deusen

pvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.com305/433-3160The Learning Curve, Inc.

[Guest guest]

Noah,

Alpha is characterized as an " observer " state. Certainly if one is observing emotional responses rather than participating in them, both negative and positive emotional reactions tend to be blunted.

Pete

-Can " Alpha Heads " also experience " emotional attenuation " where many activities don't seem to have the positive emotional reward that they should, or is that more a problem in the " Tone System " or limbic function?Thanks,- Noah> > Pete,> I've seen a few kids with high alpha at C3 and/or C4 that looks like Mu > rhythm. I've been frustrated in training it down, because it seems like > kids learn to fidget to get the reward. Does it make sense to have them > do the training at Cz in these cases, if you're doing SMR training?> Thanks,> Kirk> > .> _,_._,___ > > -- > Van Deusen

> pvdtlc@... > http://www.brain-trainer.com

> 305/433-3160> The Learning Curve, Inc.>

-- Van Deusen

pvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.com305/433-3160The Learning Curve, Inc.

[Guest guest]

Noah,

Alpha is characterized as an " observer " state. Certainly if one is observing emotional responses rather than participating in them, both negative and positive emotional reactions tend to be blunted.

Pete

-Can " Alpha Heads " also experience " emotional attenuation " where many activities don't seem to have the positive emotional reward that they should, or is that more a problem in the " Tone System " or limbic function?Thanks,- Noah> > Pete,> I've seen a few kids with high alpha at C3 and/or C4 that looks like Mu > rhythm. I've been frustrated in training it down, because it seems like > kids learn to fidget to get the reward. Does it make sense to have them > do the training at Cz in these cases, if you're doing SMR training?> Thanks,> Kirk> > .> _,_._,___ > > -- > Van Deusen

> pvdtlc@... > http://www.brain-trainer.com

> 305/433-3160> The Learning Curve, Inc.>

-- Van Deusen

pvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.com305/433-3160The Learning Curve, Inc.

[Guest guest]

Noah, can't get the link to work...tried it 2 ways.

mary

Re: Too much alpha?

/ / Anyone -Does this look like the Q of an "Alpha Head"?http://lh5.google.com/Noah.Bergevin/R1AM8ORwuQI/AAAAAAAAC74/0Uc4xMCNYUE/s800/Alpha%20Head.JPGThanks,- Noah> > >> > > Pete,> > > I've seen a few kids with high alpha at C3 and/or C4 that looks> > like Mu> > > rhythm. I've been frustrated in training it down, because it> > seems like> > > kids learn to fidget to get the reward. Does it make sense to> > have them> > > do the training at Cz in these cases, if you're doing SMR> > training?> > > Thanks,> > > Kirk> > >> > > .> > > _,_._,___> > >> > > --> > > Van Deusen> > > pvdtlc@> > > http://www.brain-trainer.com> > > 305/433-3160> > > The Learning Curve, Inc.> > >> >> > > >> > > > -- > Van Deusen> pvdtlc@...> http://www.brain-trainer.com> 305/433-3160> The Learning Curve, Inc.>

[Guest guest]

Hi. This is the link: http://lh5.google.com/Noah.Bergevin/R1AM8ORwuQI/AAAAAAAAC74/0Uc4xMCNYUE/s800/AlphaHead.JPG All the %20-s have to be removed" St. Clair" wrote: Noah, can't get the link to work...tried it 2 ways. mary Re: Too much alpha? / / Anyone -Does this look like the Q of an "Alpha Head"?http://lh5.google.com/Noah.Bergevin/R1AM8ORwuQI/AAAAAAAAC74/0Uc4xMCNYUE/s800/Alpha%20Head.JPGThanks,- Noah> > >> > > Pete,> > > I've seen a few kids with high alpha at C3 and/or C4 that looks> > like Mu> > > rhythm. I've been frustrated in training it down, because it> > seems like> > > kids learn to fidget to get the reward. Does it make sense to> > have them> > > do the training at Cz in these cases, if you're doing SMR> > training?> > > Thanks,> > > Kirk> > >> > > .> > > _,_._,___> > >>

> > --> > > Van Deusen> > > pvdtlc@> > > http://www.brain-trainer.com> > > 305/433-3160> > > The Learning Curve, Inc.> > >> >> > > >> > > > -- > Van Deusen> pvdtlc@...> http://www.brain-trainer.com> 305/433-3160> The Learning Curve, Inc.>

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[Guest guest]

,

Here it is attached.

Noah,

I agree 100% with JD. The fact that it is quite localized would suggest possible white-matter damage due to an old head injury where the dominant delta one usually sees in those cases has, over the years, become alpha.

Pete

Noah, can't get the link to work...tried it 2 ways.

mary

..,___ -- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...

http://www.brain-trainer.com305/433-3160The Learning Curve, Inc.

[Guest guest]

Noah,

I don't really get much into what caused somethinig I see in the brain. That's pretty much pure speculation. And as to what the diagnostic category might be, that's out of my areas of expertise and interest.

White matter is the myelinated axons that connect neurons. Usually axons are still in the process of becoming myelinated (which allows them to fire faster) during the age period you mention, so I guess that " over " growth would mean that the neurons get myelinated too fast and the brain begins to shift to faster fequencies earlier. I guess that might be consistent with the symptoms people call asperrgers and autistic spectrum, since they often show lots of fast activity. However, saying that both happen to co-exist is a long way from saying that one causes the other. And I would expect that if that were a problem, we'd see it in a lot broader area than that little strip from C3 to T3. And I'd expect to see higher Z scores in the fast frequencies than the image you provided.

In short, it is what it is. Try to train it and see if the brain can shift the pattern. If it does, see what happens in the client's mood, performance, etc. That's the nice thing about NF: it's really quite simple.

Pete

Would an injury to the occipital lobe over 10 years ago cause that kind of brain damage, or could it be a genetic/hereditary trait?Also, you mentioned " white-matter damage " . Isn't there research that suggest that people with Aspergers have problems with the over growth of white-matter during early childhood (1-2 years)? Do this looks like it has any connection to what we know of the neural patterns of

Austism/Aspergers?Thanks,- Noah> > > Noah, can't get the link to work...tried it 2 ways.> > mary> > .> > ,___

> >> > -- > Van Deusen> pvdtlc@... > http://www.brain-trainer.com> 305/433-3160> The Learning Curve, Inc.>

-- Van Deusen

pvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.com305/433-3160The Learning Curve, Inc.

[Guest guest]

Noah,

I don't really get much into what caused somethinig I see in the brain. That's pretty much pure speculation. And as to what the diagnostic category might be, that's out of my areas of expertise and interest.

White matter is the myelinated axons that connect neurons. Usually axons are still in the process of becoming myelinated (which allows them to fire faster) during the age period you mention, so I guess that " over " growth would mean that the neurons get myelinated too fast and the brain begins to shift to faster fequencies earlier. I guess that might be consistent with the symptoms people call asperrgers and autistic spectrum, since they often show lots of fast activity. However, saying that both happen to co-exist is a long way from saying that one causes the other. And I would expect that if that were a problem, we'd see it in a lot broader area than that little strip from C3 to T3. And I'd expect to see higher Z scores in the fast frequencies than the image you provided.

In short, it is what it is. Try to train it and see if the brain can shift the pattern. If it does, see what happens in the client's mood, performance, etc. That's the nice thing about NF: it's really quite simple.

Pete

Would an injury to the occipital lobe over 10 years ago cause that kind of brain damage, or could it be a genetic/hereditary trait?Also, you mentioned " white-matter damage " . Isn't there research that suggest that people with Aspergers have problems with the over growth of white-matter during early childhood (1-2 years)? Do this looks like it has any connection to what we know of the neural patterns of

Austism/Aspergers?Thanks,- Noah> > > Noah, can't get the link to work...tried it 2 ways.> > mary> > .> > ,___

> >> > -- > Van Deusen> pvdtlc@... > http://www.brain-trainer.com> 305/433-3160> The Learning Curve, Inc.>

-- Van Deusen

pvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.com305/433-3160The Learning Curve, Inc.

[Guest guest]

Noah,

I don't look and the various QEEG results and try to ascribe symptoms to them. However, when I see a "beta head" I do think about the possibility of insomnia, anxiety, or addictions. When I see an "alpha head" I think about depression and an older ADHD client.

Generally, I do the reverse. If a client presents with a problem I think about the possible location(s) that are associated with the symptom -- it becomes a goal of the NFB training. I will look at the maps and tables to see if I can see patterns associated with the symptom(s). I believe it is important to address the symptoms that the client is concerned about. It is not possible to make an accurate diagnosis or define symptoms based on maps alone. You can make an educated guess, but more often than not it is not accurate. Sometimes a symptom or symptom complex will be caused by theta, or alpha, or low beta, or high beta, etc.or combinations thereof. That is why I look at the symptom, and then check the QEEG data for anomalies in the area that I think might be affected.

If you have my QA assessment you will notice that symptoms that change quickly during training are arranged by the left and right hemisphere and refer to basic beta/SMR training protocols developed by the Othmers. If you are knowledgeable about the functions of the various lobes you can generally locate the problematic areas.

An example: if a client presents with depression, I think first of frontal asymmetry which account for 85% of people who present with depression. In addition Bob Gurnee in sdale, Arizona defines 11 subtypes that are associated with depression (some of those might be high amplitude frontal alpha, central asymmetry, parietal asymmetry, etc.). He teaches a two hour course on the various subtypes of depression and the various interventions that he has been successful with. If I don't see the frontal or central asymmetry then I will start to look for the possibility of the other subtypes.

If a client presents with anxiety; I begin by looking for excessive frontal or global beta or asymmetry of frontal beta. I hope this helps.

JD Elder

---- Original Message -----

From: Noah Bergevin

To: braintrainer

Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 12:13 PM

Subject: Re: Too much alpha?

JD - Mu rhythm was found in the raw EEG data.So, if this isn't "Alpha Head", what symptoms might be related to the pattern shown? Could it cause executive function/attention problems, learning difficulties, hypersomnia, "emotional attenuation", or mild/moderate Asperger's-like social disconnect?Thanks,- Noah>> Noah,> > > > The Z Score of Absolute Power that was shared reflects that there is too much alpha (>2 SD in the 10-12 Hz range) in the central region of the scalp when compared to a normal population. There is an asymmetry problem with the left sided alpha being greater that the right. There may be some depression as well as other symptoms associated with this pattern. I would consider down training alpha (9-13 Hz) on the left side starting at a position midway between C3 and T3 (C5) given the limited information.> > > > An "alpha head" IMO is one where there is global alpha with high magnitude alpha in many regions of the scalp. You will see high magnitude/power alpha in frontal and occipital areas as well as others. > > > > From the location, I doubt that it is a Mu rhythm, but the raw EEG should be checked for the wicket shaped morphology. The Mu rhythm is more common in children and young people and those with ADHD. If it is Mu rhythm, then the training should occur frontally by down training of slow waves [there is also speculation that it is caused by high frequency (20 Hz) activity]. I would also check to see if this pattern is attenuated with contralateral motor movements of the upper extremity, another characteristic of the Mu rhythm. > > > > JD Elder>

[Guest guest]

Liz, you have some interesting questions that will take a lot of time to address, so I will try to do so in a piecemeal fashion.

The neurofeedback culture is complex and diverse. There are some groups that do not use QEEG or Mini-Q assessments. They are knowledgeable about the EEG and symptoms and associated patterns. Their focus however is to provide a simplified program that is easy for a person to use without emphasizing symptoms, diagnoses, or behaviors. These groups use a standard kind of one size fits all type of training based on the way they designed their software.

Two groups come to mind. First, and Valdeane Brown's Zengar - NeuroCare products at <www.zengar.com> The NeuroCare program trains primarily at C3 and C4 using two channel training.

Second, Cowan and his Peak Performance and Peak Achievement Trainer (PAT) use primarily AFz, one channel training. See <www.peakachivement.com> Both have compelling designs and have a following of practitioners that use their equipment and software. The PAT uses a wide band suppression "squash" protocol. If I had the time, money and intellect to go thru the learning curve, I would want to purchase both of them.

Then there those of us who prefer to use QEEG and Mini-Q analyses. Depending of course on the presenting symptoms and behaviors a very large majority of clients can benefit from NFB training and we can expect to see changes in the EEG. There is a small percentage of clients that do not benefit from training, but as we see the evolution and development of more sophisticated software we see an even greater number of clients that are benefiting from NFB training and a majority of these intervention can and do relate to EEG patterns. You need to look at these outcomes as they relate to the different symptoms and diagnostic categories which further complicates the process. However, generally speaking there are very good outcomes and that do correlate with EEG patterns.

JD Elder

[Guest guest]

Liz, you have some interesting questions that will take a lot of time to address, so I will try to do so in a piecemeal fashion.

The neurofeedback culture is complex and diverse. There are some groups that do not use QEEG or Mini-Q assessments. They are knowledgeable about the EEG and symptoms and associated patterns. Their focus however is to provide a simplified program that is easy for a person to use without emphasizing symptoms, diagnoses, or behaviors. These groups use a standard kind of one size fits all type of training based on the way they designed their software.

Two groups come to mind. First, and Valdeane Brown's Zengar - NeuroCare products at <www.zengar.com> The NeuroCare program trains primarily at C3 and C4 using two channel training.

Second, Cowan and his Peak Performance and Peak Achievement Trainer (PAT) use primarily AFz, one channel training. See <www.peakachivement.com> Both have compelling designs and have a following of practitioners that use their equipment and software. The PAT uses a wide band suppression "squash" protocol. If I had the time, money and intellect to go thru the learning curve, I would want to purchase both of them.

Then there those of us who prefer to use QEEG and Mini-Q analyses. Depending of course on the presenting symptoms and behaviors a very large majority of clients can benefit from NFB training and we can expect to see changes in the EEG. There is a small percentage of clients that do not benefit from training, but as we see the evolution and development of more sophisticated software we see an even greater number of clients that are benefiting from NFB training and a majority of these intervention can and do relate to EEG patterns. You need to look at these outcomes as they relate to the different symptoms and diagnostic categories which further complicates the process. However, generally speaking there are very good outcomes and that do correlate with EEG patterns.

JD Elder

[Guest guest]

Liz,

I'd like to tag onto what JD and Bruce have offered. There are many different approaches to helping people through neurofeedback, and you can go broke trying to sort through them all if you are intent of finding "the ONE" before you really get your feet wet. This is a dynamic and exciting field, but you can easily get lost in the whirlwind of technological evolution and advancements. My suggestion is that you consider commiting to learning/evaluating the effectiveness of one approach for a year or so, and that you develop your ability to exploit the technology that you have already purchased. If you have started with TLC, then maybe take some pressure off yourself by just deciding to do TLC only. Then you can go "deeper" and find an anchor in this approach. This will make it easier down the road to evaluate what other approaches have to offer.

Also, I would not get too bogged down in trying to think about things in terms of neurotransmitters. You'll most likely be spinning your wheels. Keep it as simple as possible, and pay attention to everything that happens as your begin training. There is no substitute for actually doing the work.

-------------- Original message from "Bruce Z. Berman" : --------------

> These groups use a standard kind of one size fits all type of >training based on the way they designed their software. > > > > Two groups come to mind. First, and Valdeane Brown's Zengar - >NeuroCare products at <www.zengar.com> The NeuroCare program trains >primarily at C3 and C4 using two channel training.As someone who has had extensive training in the approach and software you describe above, I'd like to offer a few points of clarification. 1: No one training moment, in terms of the provision of feedback will be like any other due to the comprehensive adaptive nature of the targeting. At any particular moment the software can be providing information to the trainee around at least 64 different aspects of emergent variability shift

s in the EEG. The sequence of what of the 64 combinations will be targeted is not likely to ever be the same.2: The terms "one size fits all" can be used to describe any of the training approaches in this field since each of them have ways of looking at the EEG and of targeting the EEG that are constrained by the opperational paremeters of the system of beliefes and analysis used to decide on targeting.Bruce

[Guest guest]

Liz,

I'd like to tag onto what JD and Bruce have offered. There are many different approaches to helping people through neurofeedback, and you can go broke trying to sort through them all if you are intent of finding "the ONE" before you really get your feet wet. This is a dynamic and exciting field, but you can easily get lost in the whirlwind of technological evolution and advancements. My suggestion is that you consider commiting to learning/evaluating the effectiveness of one approach for a year or so, and that you develop your ability to exploit the technology that you have already purchased. If you have started with TLC, then maybe take some pressure off yourself by just deciding to do TLC only. Then you can go "deeper" and find an anchor in this approach. This will make it easier down the road to evaluate what other approaches have to offer.

Also, I would not get too bogged down in trying to think about things in terms of neurotransmitters. You'll most likely be spinning your wheels. Keep it as simple as possible, and pay attention to everything that happens as your begin training. There is no substitute for actually doing the work.

-------------- Original message from "Bruce Z. Berman" : --------------

> These groups use a standard kind of one size fits all type of >training based on the way they designed their software. > > > > Two groups come to mind. First, and Valdeane Brown's Zengar - >NeuroCare products at <www.zengar.com> The NeuroCare program trains >primarily at C3 and C4 using two channel training.As someone who has had extensive training in the approach and software you describe above, I'd like to offer a few points of clarification. 1: No one training moment, in terms of the provision of feedback will be like any other due to the comprehensive adaptive nature of the targeting. At any particular moment the software can be providing information to the trainee around at least 64 different aspects of emergent variability shift

s in the EEG. The sequence of what of the 64 combinations will be targeted is not likely to ever be the same.2: The terms "one size fits all" can be used to describe any of the training approaches in this field since each of them have ways of looking at the EEG and of targeting the EEG that are constrained by the opperational paremeters of the system of beliefes and analysis used to decide on targeting.Bruce