Guest guest Posted February 5, 2008 Report Share Posted February 5, 2008 I would think that ideally meditation states (often synchronous alpha states) would be outside of pain and pleasure in a way. They entail what the taoists call Wu Wei, the state of acting without desire or doing without doing. One of the things we are warned of in meditation practice is the danger of being seduced by the experiential sequelae of this state. If one has been immersed in a subjective flow of experience " in relation to me " , of " trying " to achieve, then the letting go process of moving into the observer state is very likely experienced as pleasurable. But I'm not sure that aiming at elevated happiness doesn't short-circuit the process. What if you don't " get " it. How elevated is elevated? How happy is happy? Certainly brain training can teach the old brain dog new tricks. Alpha synchrony training can help one experience and become more comfortable in this state of stillness and presence--the so-called zone or flow states, for example--where work is done but the focus is on the doing rather than on the result. And alpha symmetry training, to raise the relative level of alpha on the right side of the brain to 10-15% greater levels than that on the left hemisphere, can change one's point of view to a more positive, opportunity-oriented, reaching out approach, which many people experience as being happier. Pete There's now alot of information related to meditational states of consciousness that are much more pleasurable than everyday experience. Advanced meditators have also been shown to maintain higher eudamonic states while doing normal activities outside of meditation.so my questions is, based on the best available knowledge, how would one use biofeedback to train for states of elevated happiness? .. _,___ -- Van Deusenpvdtlc@... http://www.brain-trainer.com305/433-3160The Learning Curve, Inc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 5, 2008 Report Share Posted February 5, 2008 Perhaps the 'attempting' part of brain activity could be measured and trained - assuming Taoist theory is correct. If it exists then it can be quantified and altered. The inhibition of specific negative thought patterns has been observed during mediation - I think this is what you are referring to with alpha synchrony. Scientists have used brain scans to measure pleasurable states - this means that they consist of the generation of measurable activity which is generated by the brain. How did son determine that some monks were happier than others during meditation - he must have been measuring something that can also be intentionally trained for if meditation requires practice and 'right effort'. so to the best of your knowledge, fp1 and fp2 alpha synchrony is best for states of happiness? > > > There's now alot of information related to meditational states of > > consciousness that are much more pleasurable than everyday experience. > > Advanced meditators have also been shown to maintain higher eudamonic > > states while doing normal activities outside of meditation. > > > > so my questions is, based on the best available knowledge, how would > > one use biofeedback to train for states of elevated happiness? > > . > > _,___ > > > -- > Van Deusen > pvdtlc@... > http://www.brain-trainer.com > 305/433-3160 > The Learning Curve, Inc. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 5, 2008 Report Share Posted February 5, 2008 Alpha synchrony is probably better trained in the back of the brain, where alpha is more at home. O1 and O2, P3 and P4, maybe up to C3 and C4 are good sites for alpha synchrony. Studies of meditation states have shown increased synchrony in the back and reduced amplitudes in the front. Beta anywhere is probably " thinking " . Beta around F7 when the client is still with eyes closed seems to be connected with the negative inner voice. Whether or not son was able to determine that one monk was more " happy " than another in a meditative state--and the implication that the ones who were happier were doing it " better " is still, in my mind separate from the idea I was suggesting that trying to be happy is probably not the best way to get there. Pete Perhaps the 'attempting' part of brain activity could be measured and trained - assuming Taoist theory is correct. If it exists then it can be quantified and altered. The inhibition of specific negative thought patterns has been observed during mediation - I think this is what you are referring to with alpha synchrony.Scientists have used brain scans to measure pleasurable states - this means that they consist of the generation of measurable activity which is generated by the brain. How did son determine that some monks were happier than others during meditation - he must have been measuring something that can also be intentionally trained for if meditation requires practice and 'right effort'.so to the best of your knowledge, fp1 and fp2 alpha synchrony is best for states of happiness? .. -- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.com 305/433-3160The Learning Curve, Inc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 5, 2008 Report Share Posted February 5, 2008 Alpha synchrony is probably better trained in the back of the brain, where alpha is more at home. O1 and O2, P3 and P4, maybe up to C3 and C4 are good sites for alpha synchrony. Studies of meditation states have shown increased synchrony in the back and reduced amplitudes in the front. Beta anywhere is probably " thinking " . Beta around F7 when the client is still with eyes closed seems to be connected with the negative inner voice. Whether or not son was able to determine that one monk was more " happy " than another in a meditative state--and the implication that the ones who were happier were doing it " better " is still, in my mind separate from the idea I was suggesting that trying to be happy is probably not the best way to get there. Pete Perhaps the 'attempting' part of brain activity could be measured and trained - assuming Taoist theory is correct. If it exists then it can be quantified and altered. The inhibition of specific negative thought patterns has been observed during mediation - I think this is what you are referring to with alpha synchrony.Scientists have used brain scans to measure pleasurable states - this means that they consist of the generation of measurable activity which is generated by the brain. How did son determine that some monks were happier than others during meditation - he must have been measuring something that can also be intentionally trained for if meditation requires practice and 'right effort'.so to the best of your knowledge, fp1 and fp2 alpha synchrony is best for states of happiness? .. -- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.com 305/433-3160The Learning Curve, Inc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 5, 2008 Report Share Posted February 5, 2008 Thanks . That makes sense as I've heard meditation described as the process of continually letting go rather than trying to achieve something. I think that biofeedback is still useful, as in meditation feelings are the biofeedback as well as the teacher - I think it's possible that neurobiofeedback could provide more accurate and potentially useful feedback than either of these. Maybe it's more accurate to say that meditation requires a 'transcendant effort' - but that's just terminology. So a combination of 01/02 alpha synchrony with a beta reduction protocol for f7 - I will definately give that a try. > > > Perhaps the 'attempting' part of brain activity could be measured > > and trained - assuming Taoist theory is correct. If it exists then > > it can be quantified and altered. The inhibition of specific > > negative thought patterns has been observed during mediation - I > > think this is what you are referring to with alpha synchrony. > > > > Scientists have used brain scans to measure pleasurable states - > > this means that they consist of the generation of measurable > > activity which is generated by the brain. How did son determine > > that some monks were happier than others during meditation - he must > > have been measuring something that can also be intentionally trained > > for if meditation requires practice and 'right effort'. > > > > so to the best of your knowledge, fp1 and fp2 alpha synchrony is > > best for states of happiness? > > . > > > > -- > Van Deusen > pvdtlc@... > http://www.brain-trainer.com > 305/433-3160 > The Learning Curve, Inc. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 5, 2008 Report Share Posted February 5, 2008 Actually, as I was reading your e-mail a correction popped up from my memory. In the research I was referencing, it was actually increased alpha at P4 and reduced amplitudes at Fpz that were the finding. P4 is the site where we distinguish ourselves in space, where I end and the rest of the world begins. People who are under-activated here can bump into things a lot. The alph spike seems to take this area out of its game, so the distinction between me and everything else fades and I become one with the universe. Of course raising posterior alpha synchrony would be a great way of achieving high alpha at P4, and it has other benefits as well. Pete Thanks . That makes sense as I've heard meditation described as the process of continually letting go rather than trying to achieve something. I think that biofeedback is still useful, as in meditation feelings are the biofeedback as well as the teacher - I think it's possible that neurobiofeedback could provide more accurate and potentially useful feedback than either of these.Maybe it's more accurate to say that meditation requires a 'transcendant effort' - but that's just terminology. So a combination of 01/02 alpha synchrony with a beta reduction protocol for f7 - I will definately give that a try. .. ___ -- Van Deusenpvdtlc@... http://www.brain-trainer.com305/433-3160The Learning Curve, Inc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 6, 2008 Report Share Posted February 6, 2008 what I hope to get at here is that happiness can be defined in terms of specific brain activity - and therefore can be increased and measured - and that if we're not training for happiness we're training for cultural or religious values. The various attributes and goals we have in life are a symptom of an object oriented brain design meant to improve genetic_fitness traits (not lifelong happiness or 'well being') in an ancient environment - not the world of today. it's a philosophical statement that deserves to be spread far and wide IMO. it takes specific brain activity to generate happiness or positive emotions - we're not very good at measuring it yet (for lack of concerted global scientific effort) but the possibility exists. There may be too much noise with EEG to accurately train these specific brain pathways directly though we can likely effect the various networks which mediate the generation of positive affect. Unfortunately, fMRI neurofeedback is a long ways off so we're stuck with EEG for home use. sorry, not the most 'appropriate' place to voice this but I've haven't seen it brought up yet and it's more important than appropriate norms. > > > Perhaps the 'attempting' part of brain activity could be measured > > and trained - assuming Taoist theory is correct. If it exists then > > it can be quantified and altered. The inhibition of specific > > negative thought patterns has been observed during mediation - I > > think this is what you are referring to with alpha synchrony. > > > > Scientists have used brain scans to measure pleasurable states - > > this means that they consist of the generation of measurable > > activity which is generated by the brain. How did son determine > > that some monks were happier than others during meditation - he must > > have been measuring something that can also be intentionally trained > > for if meditation requires practice and 'right effort'. > > > > so to the best of your knowledge, fp1 and fp2 alpha synchrony is > > best for states of happiness? > > . > > > > -- > Van Deusen > pvdtlc@... > http://www.brain-trainer.com > 305/433-3160 > The Learning Curve, Inc. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 6, 2008 Report Share Posted February 6, 2008 You've already put out a good protocol for alpha symmetry at 01/02, which protocol do you think would be best for reducing alpha amplitudes in FPZ and increasing them in P4? Would it be possible to combine the two protocols on a two-channel EEG setup? or would it be better to train them separately anyhow? Worth getting a 4 channel to do both simultaneously? > > > > > Perhaps the 'attempting' part of brain activity could be > measured > > > and trained - assuming Taoist theory is correct. If it exists > then > > > it can be quantified and altered. The inhibition of specific > > > negative thought patterns has been observed during mediation - I > > > think this is what you are referring to with alpha synchrony. > > > > > > Scientists have used brain scans to measure pleasurable states - > > > this means that they consist of the generation of measurable > > > activity which is generated by the brain. How did son > determine > > > that some monks were happier than others during meditation - he > must > > > have been measuring something that can also be intentionally > trained > > > for if meditation requires practice and 'right effort'. > > > > > > so to the best of your knowledge, fp1 and fp2 alpha synchrony is > > > best for states of happiness? > > > . > > > > > > -- > > Van Deusen > > pvdtlc@ > > http://www.brain-trainer.com > > 305/433-3160 > > The Learning Curve, Inc. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 6, 2008 Report Share Posted February 6, 2008 You've already put out a good protocol for alpha symmetry at 01/02, which protocol do you think would be best for reducing alpha amplitudes in FPZ and increasing them in P4? Would it be possible to combine the two protocols on a two-channel EEG setup? or would it be better to train them separately anyhow? Worth getting a 4 channel to do both simultaneously? > > > > > Perhaps the 'attempting' part of brain activity could be > measured > > > and trained - assuming Taoist theory is correct. If it exists > then > > > it can be quantified and altered. The inhibition of specific > > > negative thought patterns has been observed during mediation - I > > > think this is what you are referring to with alpha synchrony. > > > > > > Scientists have used brain scans to measure pleasurable states - > > > this means that they consist of the generation of measurable > > > activity which is generated by the brain. How did son > determine > > > that some monks were happier than others during meditation - he > must > > > have been measuring something that can also be intentionally > trained > > > for if meditation requires practice and 'right effort'. > > > > > > so to the best of your knowledge, fp1 and fp2 alpha synchrony is > > > best for states of happiness? > > > . > > > > > > -- > > Van Deusen > > pvdtlc@ > > http://www.brain-trainer.com > > 305/433-3160 > > The Learning Curve, Inc. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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