Re: work day

[Guest guest]

,

Wow – you work 12-14 hour

days? I’m guessing you don’t have kids? (or must have a great

spouse). I’m limited by the hours my kids are in school (my choice –

I want to be home when they are). I do work late on Mondays (high demand

day) and the kids stay with a neighbor for an hour then after they all ride the

bus home.

A. Eads, M.D.

Pinnacle Family Medicine, PLLC

phone fax

P.O.

Box 7275

Woodland

Park, CO 80863

From: [mailto: ] On Behalf Of Ellsworth

Sent: Monday, September 18, 2006

8:41 PM

To:

Subject: RE:

Re: money

Your local county hospital- which one? Overlake was private last

time I was there. I raised my kids in Bellevue and the plateau (now

Sammamish). (You are talking to the former PTA co-president of Odle Middle School)

Before being an IMP I did some moonlighting at a large clinic where

I saw 30-35 in 7 hours, or 25 during extended hours at night.

I will be able to answer your questions on money after my

accountant who I just hired sifts through my financials.

And my average working day is 12-14 hours(patient time is 9 hours)

As an IMP, I average 15-20 patients a day without a MA or RN.

However, my practice is a joy and I cannot really call it work.

Sometimes…microseconds… I feel guilty for being so happy with what

I’m doing. I don’t have that twisted gripping in my stomach or

pounding in my chest when climbing out or the car and entering the workplace

that use to haunt me.

The support from Gordon and from this group is incalculable.

You are not isolated or alone.

However, what you have outlined compensation-wise seems

excellent.

T. Ellsworth, MD

sdale, Az

From:

[mailto: ]

On Behalf Of umehta00

Sent: Monday, September 18, 2006

3:09 PM

To:

Subject:

Re: money

Dr Ellsworth, Dr Brock and others,

Sorry for long post and getting back a little late.

I should have clarified that my days are 11 or 12 hr days.

I do Family Medicine and Urgent Care.

I work for my local county hospital 3 days a week (Tuesday, Thursday

and every other weekend) and the salary is 104,000. Yes, I am

usually off every Mon, Wed and Fri.

The clinic is open 1 yr and I see only about 10 pts per day. The max

is 20. (This may change).

All I do is treat the patients.

At the end of the day my eyes are often bleary from too much

computer surfing.

I kept my old job for moon lighting 2 days a month.

I make approximately 23,000 per yr.

80 ($ per hr) x 12 (hrs per shift) x 2(shifts per month) x 12

(months per yr).

These are 12 hr days and very busy occasionally seeing up to 40 pts

per day. (Mostly 27)

At the end of the day I feel satisfied that I did a good job and

kept my skills up.

Total salary approx 127,000/ yr. (104,000 + 23,000)

Working 180 days per year. Not including approx 22 days paid leave

per year.

What does an average Family Medicine Doctor make?

http://swz.salary.com/salarywizard/layouthtmls/swzl_compresult_nation

al_HC07000052.html

The summary is below:

Base Pay only:

25 th Percentile – 137,803.

Median - 156,119.

75th Percentile - 183,281.

Total Cash Compensation (Base + Bonus)

25th percentile – 140,838.

Median – 160,044.

75th percentile - 188541

Total Compensation (Base + Bonus + Benefits)

Only Median Reported – 205,701.

The Total Compensation is an additional 23 % of the Total Cash

Compensation and (the Benefits) include:

Social security (4%); 401k/ 403 b (3%); Disability (2%); Healthcare

(3%); Pension (3%); Time off (8 %).

Of course this web site could have incorrect information and things

do change constantly.

I feel these numbers are quite accurate. Benefits do count (20 %

conservatively).

I was let go from my old (now moonlighting) job as they could hire

new doctors cheaper. I grossed about 155 K working hard (although

only approximately 150 shift).

There I had excellent benefits, including the extremely enviable

defined benefit pension plan. (They pay you a fixed amount till the

latter of you or your spouse dies, like social security).

Some points I would like to raise are

1) Average IMP take home is below average non IMP in spite of

working hard.

This may change though as " The expenses for an average non IMP keep

on going up whereas with an IMP they are somewhat controlled " .

2) For the Average non IMP: Financial reward is a great

motivator for working hard.

This is why they keep up with all the extra hours and

lack of family time.

3) It boils down to time and money.

Do you want more time off or more money?

For me I like the fact that I have a lot of time off. I may regret

this decision in the future.

(I know of no one who went to their death bed wishing they had

worked harder).

4) There may be more day to day hassles with an IMP.

5) It is harder to take prolonged/overseas vacation with an IMP.

6) Why do IMP's feel better at the end of the day? It has to do

with a sense of worth and a personal need being fulfilled which is

hard to measure. It is not a way to be financially wealthy but a

great way to contribute to the community and live an honorable life.

7) With an IMP the burn out rate may be low and one can

definitely work longer years therefore financially it all may even

out in the end.

One of the main reasons for me to start an IMP would be to have the

opportunity to work till I am able to (maybe even into my eighties).

I see a lot of older people who have retired and who miss the

intellectual challenge and now have no opportunity to use their

skills. (If you don't use it you loose it).

These are my views only. I am sure this is not the absolute truth as

each case varies. If one is 80 % satisfied/happy with their career

and financial situation then it's great.

Uday Mehta,

Age 46.

Bellevue, WA

> >

> > I have been thinking about the same things lately, Larry.

> Unfortunately, I

> > only paid myself $45,000 last year (my second year of solo, low

> volume

> > practice) However, my numbers are still not as good as yours. I

> think I

> > average about 8 patients a day. But I also only work about 36

> hours a week.

> > I am definately curious about what others have to say on this

issue

> > Marie Christensen MD

> >

> > _____

> >

> > From: Practiceimprovement <mailto:%

40yahoogroups.com>

> 1

> > [mailto:Practiceimprovement

> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> 1 ]

On Behalf

> Of

> Brock DO

> > Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2006 2:23 PM

> > To: Practiceimprovement <mailto:%

40yahoogroups.com>

> 1

> > Subject: RE: money

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > The problem is that the average of $160,000 includes docs that

do

> the full

> > gamut of FP & usually high volumes. The typical FP still likely

> does AM

> > inpatient work, sees 30+ office patients, sees nursing home

> patients, works

> > 60 hrs per week. It is hard to expect an IMP low volume practice

> to match

> > that because I personally am not working nearly that hard! I do

> not do

> > inpatient, nursing homes, & only work ~ 36 - 40 hrs per week

> (averaging 12 -

> > 15 pts/day), so of course I am not going to make $160,000, but

> that is a

> > lifestyle tradeoff have chosen. At least that is the way I have

> > rationalized not making " average " income in my mind.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > money

> >

> >

> >

> > Recently I have had money on my mind. After 2 years in my new

> > practice I an finally close to making $150,000 which is still

less

> > than I made at my old job. However I am finding it difficult to

> > figure out how to make anymore than that since I don't think

that

> I

> > can see any more patients in a day. The median income of FP's is

> over

> > $160.000/yr. How many of you are making more than the median FP

> > income and what are you doing to make that much. If the

> micropractice

> > model is not capable of producing enough income to provide at

> least

> > the median income it is probably not going to be a viable model.

> > Larry Lindeman MD

> >

>

>

[Guest guest]

,

Wow – you work 12-14 hour

days? I’m guessing you don’t have kids? (or must have a great

spouse). I’m limited by the hours my kids are in school (my choice –

I want to be home when they are). I do work late on Mondays (high demand

day) and the kids stay with a neighbor for an hour then after they all ride the

bus home.

A. Eads, M.D.

Pinnacle Family Medicine, PLLC

phone fax

P.O.

Box 7275

Woodland

Park, CO 80863

From: [mailto: ] On Behalf Of Ellsworth

Sent: Monday, September 18, 2006

8:41 PM

To:

Subject: RE:

Re: money

Your local county hospital- which one? Overlake was private last

time I was there. I raised my kids in Bellevue and the plateau (now

Sammamish). (You are talking to the former PTA co-president of Odle Middle School)

Before being an IMP I did some moonlighting at a large clinic where

I saw 30-35 in 7 hours, or 25 during extended hours at night.

I will be able to answer your questions on money after my

accountant who I just hired sifts through my financials.

And my average working day is 12-14 hours(patient time is 9 hours)

As an IMP, I average 15-20 patients a day without a MA or RN.

However, my practice is a joy and I cannot really call it work.

Sometimes…microseconds… I feel guilty for being so happy with what

I’m doing. I don’t have that twisted gripping in my stomach or

pounding in my chest when climbing out or the car and entering the workplace

that use to haunt me.

The support from Gordon and from this group is incalculable.

You are not isolated or alone.

However, what you have outlined compensation-wise seems

excellent.

T. Ellsworth, MD

sdale, Az

From:

[mailto: ]

On Behalf Of umehta00

Sent: Monday, September 18, 2006

3:09 PM

To:

Subject:

Re: money

Dr Ellsworth, Dr Brock and others,

Sorry for long post and getting back a little late.

I should have clarified that my days are 11 or 12 hr days.

I do Family Medicine and Urgent Care.

I work for my local county hospital 3 days a week (Tuesday, Thursday

and every other weekend) and the salary is 104,000. Yes, I am

usually off every Mon, Wed and Fri.

The clinic is open 1 yr and I see only about 10 pts per day. The max

is 20. (This may change).

All I do is treat the patients.

At the end of the day my eyes are often bleary from too much

computer surfing.

I kept my old job for moon lighting 2 days a month.

I make approximately 23,000 per yr.

80 ($ per hr) x 12 (hrs per shift) x 2(shifts per month) x 12

(months per yr).

These are 12 hr days and very busy occasionally seeing up to 40 pts

per day. (Mostly 27)

At the end of the day I feel satisfied that I did a good job and

kept my skills up.

Total salary approx 127,000/ yr. (104,000 + 23,000)

Working 180 days per year. Not including approx 22 days paid leave

per year.

What does an average Family Medicine Doctor make?

http://swz.salary.com/salarywizard/layouthtmls/swzl_compresult_nation

al_HC07000052.html

The summary is below:

Base Pay only:

25 th Percentile – 137,803.

Median - 156,119.

75th Percentile - 183,281.

Total Cash Compensation (Base + Bonus)

25th percentile – 140,838.

Median – 160,044.

75th percentile - 188541

Total Compensation (Base + Bonus + Benefits)

Only Median Reported – 205,701.

The Total Compensation is an additional 23 % of the Total Cash

Compensation and (the Benefits) include:

Social security (4%); 401k/ 403 b (3%); Disability (2%); Healthcare

(3%); Pension (3%); Time off (8 %).

Of course this web site could have incorrect information and things

do change constantly.

I feel these numbers are quite accurate. Benefits do count (20 %

conservatively).

I was let go from my old (now moonlighting) job as they could hire

new doctors cheaper. I grossed about 155 K working hard (although

only approximately 150 shift).

There I had excellent benefits, including the extremely enviable

defined benefit pension plan. (They pay you a fixed amount till the

latter of you or your spouse dies, like social security).

Some points I would like to raise are

1) Average IMP take home is below average non IMP in spite of

working hard.

This may change though as " The expenses for an average non IMP keep

on going up whereas with an IMP they are somewhat controlled " .

2) For the Average non IMP: Financial reward is a great

motivator for working hard.

This is why they keep up with all the extra hours and

lack of family time.

3) It boils down to time and money.

Do you want more time off or more money?

For me I like the fact that I have a lot of time off. I may regret

this decision in the future.

(I know of no one who went to their death bed wishing they had

worked harder).

4) There may be more day to day hassles with an IMP.

5) It is harder to take prolonged/overseas vacation with an IMP.

6) Why do IMP's feel better at the end of the day? It has to do

with a sense of worth and a personal need being fulfilled which is

hard to measure. It is not a way to be financially wealthy but a

great way to contribute to the community and live an honorable life.

7) With an IMP the burn out rate may be low and one can

definitely work longer years therefore financially it all may even

out in the end.

One of the main reasons for me to start an IMP would be to have the

opportunity to work till I am able to (maybe even into my eighties).

I see a lot of older people who have retired and who miss the

intellectual challenge and now have no opportunity to use their

skills. (If you don't use it you loose it).

These are my views only. I am sure this is not the absolute truth as

each case varies. If one is 80 % satisfied/happy with their career

and financial situation then it's great.

Uday Mehta,

Age 46.

Bellevue, WA

> >

> > I have been thinking about the same things lately, Larry.

> Unfortunately, I

> > only paid myself $45,000 last year (my second year of solo, low

> volume

> > practice) However, my numbers are still not as good as yours. I

> think I

> > average about 8 patients a day. But I also only work about 36

> hours a week.

> > I am definately curious about what others have to say on this

issue

> > Marie Christensen MD

> >

> > _____

> >

> > From: Practiceimprovement <mailto:%

40yahoogroups.com>

> 1

> > [mailto:Practiceimprovement

> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> 1 ]

On Behalf

> Of

> Brock DO

> > Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2006 2:23 PM

> > To: Practiceimprovement <mailto:%

40yahoogroups.com>

> 1

> > Subject: RE: money

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > The problem is that the average of $160,000 includes docs that

do

> the full

> > gamut of FP & usually high volumes. The typical FP still likely

> does AM

> > inpatient work, sees 30+ office patients, sees nursing home

> patients, works

> > 60 hrs per week. It is hard to expect an IMP low volume practice

> to match

> > that because I personally am not working nearly that hard! I do

> not do

> > inpatient, nursing homes, & only work ~ 36 - 40 hrs per week

> (averaging 12 -

> > 15 pts/day), so of course I am not going to make $160,000, but

> that is a

> > lifestyle tradeoff have chosen. At least that is the way I have

> > rationalized not making " average " income in my mind.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > money

> >

> >

> >

> > Recently I have had money on my mind. After 2 years in my new

> > practice I an finally close to making $150,000 which is still

less

> > than I made at my old job. However I am finding it difficult to

> > figure out how to make anymore than that since I don't think

that

> I

> > can see any more patients in a day. The median income of FP's is

> over

> > $160.000/yr. How many of you are making more than the median FP

> > income and what are you doing to make that much. If the

> micropractice

> > model is not capable of producing enough income to provide at

> least

> > the median income it is probably not going to be a viable model.

> > Larry Lindeman MD

> >

>

>

[Guest guest]

My 3 kids are age 27,29 and 30. My husband

travels. Sometimes I’ll go home and bring my dog Lucky to the office

while I finish.

Wow, this sounds pathetic

From: [mailto: ] On Behalf Of Eads

Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2006

8:27 AM

To:

Subject: RE:

work day

,

Wow – you work 12-14 hour days? I’m guessing you

don’t have kids? (or must have a great spouse). I’m limited

by the hours my kids are in school (my choice – I want to be home when

they are). I do work late on Mondays (high demand day) and the kids stay

with a neighbor for an hour then after they all ride the bus home.

A. Eads, M.D.

Pinnacle Family Medicine, PLLC

phone fax

P.O. Box 7275

Woodland Park, CO

80863

From:

[mailto: ]

On Behalf Of Ellsworth

Sent: Monday, September 18, 2006

8:41 PM

To:

Subject: RE:

Re: money

Your local county hospital- which one? Overlake was private last

time I was there. I raised my kids in Bellevue and the

plateau (now Sammamish). (You are talking to the former PTA co-president of Odle Middle School)

Before being an IMP I did some moonlighting at a large clinic where

I saw 30-35 in 7 hours, or 25 during extended hours at night.

I will be able to answer your questions on money after my

accountant who I just hired sifts through my financials.

And my average working day is 12-14 hours(patient time is 9 hours)

As an IMP, I average 15-20 patients a day without a MA or RN.

However, my practice is a joy and I cannot really call it work.

Sometimes…microseconds… I feel guilty for being so happy with what

I’m doing. I don’t have that twisted gripping in my stomach or

pounding in my chest when climbing out or the car and entering the workplace

that use to haunt me.

The support from Gordon and from this group is incalculable.

You are not isolated or alone.

However, what you have outlined compensation-wise seems excellent.

T. Ellsworth, MD

sdale, Az

From:

[mailto: ]

On Behalf Of umehta00

Sent: Monday, September 18, 2006

3:09 PM

To:

Subject:

Re: money

Dr Ellsworth, Dr Brock and others,

Sorry for long post and getting back a little late.

I should have clarified that my days are 11 or 12 hr days.

I do Family Medicine and Urgent Care.

I work for my local county hospital 3 days a week (Tuesday, Thursday

and every other weekend) and the salary is 104,000. Yes, I am

usually off every Mon, Wed and Fri.

The clinic is open 1 yr and I see only about 10 pts per day. The max

is 20. (This may change).

All I do is treat the patients.

At the end of the day my eyes are often bleary from too much

computer surfing.

I kept my old job for moon lighting 2 days a month.

I make approximately 23,000 per yr.

80 ($ per hr) x 12 (hrs per shift) x 2(shifts per month) x 12

(months per yr).

These are 12 hr days and very busy occasionally seeing up to 40 pts

per day. (Mostly 27)

At the end of the day I feel satisfied that I did a good job and

kept my skills up.

Total salary approx 127,000/ yr. (104,000 + 23,000)

Working 180 days per year. Not including approx 22 days paid leave

per year.

What does an average Family Medicine Doctor make?

http://swz.salary.com/salarywizard/layouthtmls/swzl_compresult_nation

al_HC07000052.html

The summary is below:

Base Pay only:

25 th Percentile – 137,803.

Median - 156,119.

75th Percentile - 183,281.

Total Cash Compensation (Base + Bonus)

25th percentile – 140,838.

Median – 160,044.

75th percentile - 188541

Total Compensation (Base + Bonus + Benefits)

Only Median Reported – 205,701.

The Total Compensation is an additional 23 % of the Total Cash

Compensation and (the Benefits) include:

Social security (4%); 401k/ 403 b (3%); Disability (2%); Healthcare

(3%); Pension (3%); Time off (8 %).

Of course this web site could have incorrect information and things

do change constantly.

I feel these numbers are quite accurate. Benefits do count (20 %

conservatively).

I was let go from my old (now moonlighting) job as they could hire

new doctors cheaper. I grossed about 155 K working hard (although

only approximately 150 shift).

There I had excellent benefits, including the extremely enviable

defined benefit pension plan. (They pay you a fixed amount till the

latter of you or your spouse dies, like social security).

Some points I would like to raise are

1) Average IMP take home is below average non IMP in spite of

working hard.

This may change though as " The expenses for an average non IMP keep

on going up whereas with an IMP they are somewhat controlled " .

2) For the Average non IMP: Financial reward is a great

motivator for working hard.

This is why they keep up with all the extra hours and

lack of family time.

3) It boils down to time and money.

Do you want more time off or more money?

For me I like the fact that I have a lot of time off. I may regret

this decision in the future.

(I know of no one who went to their death bed wishing they had

worked harder).

4) There may be more day to day hassles with an IMP.

5) It is harder to take prolonged/overseas vacation with an IMP.

6) Why do IMP's feel better at the end of the day? It has to do

with a sense of worth and a personal need being fulfilled which is

hard to measure. It is not a way to be financially wealthy but a

great way to contribute to the community and live an honorable life.

7) With an IMP the burn out rate may be low and one can

definitely work longer years therefore financially it all may even

out in the end.

One of the main reasons for me to start an IMP would be to have the

opportunity to work till I am able to (maybe even into my eighties).

I see a lot of older people who have retired and who miss the

intellectual challenge and now have no opportunity to use their

skills. (If you don't use it you loose it).

These are my views only. I am sure this is not the absolute truth as

each case varies. If one is 80 % satisfied/happy with their career

and financial situation then it's great.

Uday Mehta,

Age 46.

Bellevue,

WA

> >

> > I have been thinking about the same things lately, Larry.

> Unfortunately, I

> > only paid myself $45,000 last year (my second year of solo, low

> volume

> > practice) However, my numbers are still not as good as yours. I

> think I

> > average about 8 patients a day. But I also only work about 36

> hours a week.

> > I am definately curious about what others have to say on this

issue

> > Marie Christensen MD

> >

> > _____

> >

> > From: Practiceimprovement <mailto:%

40yahoogroups.com>

> 1

> > [mailto:Practiceimprovement

> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> 1 ]

On Behalf

> Of

> Brock DO

> > Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2006 2:23 PM

> > To: Practiceimprovement <mailto:%

40yahoogroups.com>

> 1

> > Subject: RE: money

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > The problem is that the average of $160,000 includes docs that

do

> the full

> > gamut of FP & usually high volumes. The typical FP still likely

> does AM

> > inpatient work, sees 30+ office patients, sees nursing home

> patients, works

> > 60 hrs per week. It is hard to expect an IMP low volume practice

> to match

> > that because I personally am not working nearly that hard! I do

> not do

> > inpatient, nursing homes, & only work ~ 36 - 40 hrs per week

> (averaging 12 -

> > 15 pts/day), so of course I am not going to make $160,000, but

> that is a

> > lifestyle tradeoff have chosen. At least that is the way I have

> > rationalized not making " average " income in my mind.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > money

> >

> >

> >

> > Recently I have had money on my mind. After 2 years in my new

> > practice I an finally close to making $150,000 which is still

less

> > than I made at my old job. However I am finding it difficult to

> > figure out how to make anymore than that since I don't think

that

> I

> > can see any more patients in a day. The median income of FP's is

> over

> > $160.000/yr. How many of you are making more than the median FP

> > income and what are you doing to make that much. If the

> micropractice

> > model is not capable of producing enough income to provide at

> least

> > the median income it is probably not going to be a viable model.

> > Larry Lindeman MD

> >

>

>

[Guest guest]

Lately I have been trying to get home just after the kids (those that are in school) so I can see them and have some dinner or else hang out time before the two oldest go to ballet- where they stay until 9pm most nights. I also have two little ones at home still. The point of all this is that I have some patients who want to come in after they are done with work and it is often difficult for me. I don't mind seeing people early in the morning, but don't get too many takers. Sometimes I guess I feel guilty having open access that doesn't meet my patients needs.

[Guest guest]

mkcl6@... wrote: Lately I have been trying to get home just after the kids (those that are in school) so I can see them and have some dinner or else hang out time before the two oldest go to ballet- where they stay until 9pm most nights. I also have two little ones at home still. The point of all this is that I have some patients who want to come in after they are done with work and it is often difficult for me. I don't mind seeing people early in the

morning, but don't get too many takers. Sometimes I guess I feel guilty having open access that doesn't meet my patients needs.

All-new Yahoo! Mail - Fire up a more powerful email and get things done faster.

[Guest guest]

, Don't feel bad. Your patients will settle into your hours. It doesn't matter how long you are open, or what hours you have. My experience is that someone will always want to come in a half hour after you close. I used to work in a practice that was open until 9 PM three days a week. They always had someone call and ask them to hold the door for them until 9:15. Joanne from Drain, Oregon. mkcl6@... wrote: Lately I have been trying to get home just after the kids (those that are in school) so I can see them and have some dinner or else hang out time before the two oldest go to ballet- where they stay until 9pm most nights. I also have two little ones at home still. The point of all this is that I have some patients who want to come in after they are done with work and it is often difficult for me. I don't mind seeing people early in the morning, but don't get too many takers. Sometimes I guess I feel guilty having open access that doesn't meet my patients needs.

Stay in the know. Pulse on the new Yahoo.com. Check it out.

[Guest guest]

"I don't know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everyone. Bill Cosby Don't feel guilty. We are for the most part family docs and there are certain qualities that lead us to this area of specialization. I try and accommodate patients ...within limits. You have to set limits. Your office is not open 24/7 just because you are accessible 24/7. n Bobb-McKoyjoanne holland wrote: , Don't feel bad. Your patients will settle into your hours. It doesn't matter how long you are open, or what hours you have. My experience is that someone will always want to come in a half hour after you close. I used to work in a practice that was open until 9 PM three days a week. They always had someone call and ask them to hold the door for them until 9:15. Joanne from Drain, Oregon. mkcl6@... wrote: Lately I have been trying to get home just after the kids (those that are in school) so I can see them and have some dinner or else hang out time

before the two oldest go to ballet- where they stay until 9pm most nights. I also have two little ones at home still. The point of all this is that I have some patients who want to come in after they are done with work and it is often difficult for me. I don't mind seeing people early in the morning, but don't get too many takers. Sometimes I guess I feel guilty having open access that doesn't meet my patients needs. Stay in the know. Pulse on the new Yahoo.com. Check it out.

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