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What do you mean by "tipping point" Gordon? I opened in January, I have seen almost 500 patients at my new practice, stats much like Padma's with regard to number of new patients and patients from the old office. I have one employee and I think my goal is about 800 patients. How many do you have in your practice Gordon? I would like to remain somewhat parttime, (I'm the one with 5 kids). My employee is a really really good one! She makes it easy for me in lots of ways.

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Thanks for all of your comments!

There is a lot of demand in this area for primary care providers, and

a lot of frustration with doctors who make them wait an hour, give

urgent appointments after 1 month, and spend 5 min with them. So our

model has attracted patients quickly. I realise I have to limit my

panel size at some point. Thanks Gordon, your comments will help me

figure out a cap for my panel size.

I have a terrific Medical Asst who does everything else that I do not

HAVE to do. I have 120 patients using RelayHealth, that helps cut down

on phone calls--I respond to them after my daughter goes to bed. My MA

takes care of scheduling/referrals/sending lab reports/scanning/phone

calls. All these tasks require a lot of time, so I feel it is money

well spent on her, as it frees up my time to spend with patients. This

will help me provide the high quality medical care we are striving

for, and stay financially viable--being the sole provider I have to

think of that.

My father takes care of all the managerial tasks and bookkeeping. I

have a billing company for now (eventually hope to do my own--?!?). So

when I am home I still have the energy I need to spend time with my 6

yr old.

After 1 year I will drop the nursing home and maybe the assisted

living homes. , the NH I am going to has another Physician too.

We will cross cover during vacations. The first yr I will not take

more than 2-3 days off in a row!

--Padma

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I still

think that we should talk in regards to “average patients per day”

or something similar, rather than “total patients in panel.”

To me, an arbitrary cut-off of 300 or 800 or whatever number of patients, is

just that: arbitrary. For example, I’ve been open now for 2.5 years

& have seen at least 1200 – 1500 new patients but still only average

maybe 10 – 12 per day. I really want to average about 12 – 17

visits per day, so for me to close my panel just based on total patients would

be silly. Also, if other practice locations are anything like mine you

will find that many people go from doctor to doctor these days & just do

not stick with a primary care doctor for life like they used to. It is

not necessarily that we are doing something to make them dissatisfied, just

that they want to try someone else “to get answers” to their

medical problems “that no one can figure out.” Patients seem

to treat FP’s like an urgent care anymore, at least younger

patients. A good example, is the other doctor here (Annie Skaggs I

believe) that said she had seen 9000 patients & only 1000 were still

active. I do not see myself closing to all new patients anytime soon, if

ever, but I may pare down the lowest payors as I go.

Fast start-up

Very impressive growth

Padma!

Your trajectory of growth is very steep.

Be aware that the word-of-mouth tipping point seems to be at about 300

patients.

As a female doc you risk creating demand beyond your capacity.

Be very careful that you close down the new patient volume before you hit full

visit volume.

What is your projected " full " target?

Gordon

At 09:52 AM 10/18/2006, you wrote:

Hi

everyone,

I have an update on my practice in the Albany, NY area. Started in

June at 9hr/week, and now 4 days a week since July 10th. Got to my

400th patient mark yesterday (after eliminating the inactivated

ones). Seeing about 6-7 patients a day (if it was a 5 day week).

About 35-40% are my patients from my previous practice. Averaging

about 2 new patients a day, and 1-2 transfers from the old place.

This includes 40 new patients at 2 assisted living home where I go

to see patients once a week.

My father (office manager) insisted I advertise heavily, and I

reluctantly agreed, and it seems to have paid off. The most

expensive advertising was in the beginning--direct mail cards in the

local area, and then the 2 week run in the largest local newspaper--

this was the only way I could let my old patients know where I was.

The relatively cheaper weekly inserts in the Local free " advertiser "

is getting me 40% of ongoing new patients and rest are by word of

mouth. In my case, advertising has been very expensive, but helped

me build a patient panel quickly, so in the long run will boost my

bottomline.

My billing person recommended conducting flu-clinics in the

community--these we'll start this week. We'll see how it works. Have

stated some Prolotherapy, and expect that to build up gradually. In

the meantime, have been moonlighting for a hospitalist group which

helps pay the bills. Will soon be picking up 50 nursing home

patients. In the first year there will be no such thing as quality

of life! After that I will drop the other gigs.

The patients love the extended visits, and most of those who switch

to me say they want a doctor who listens and cares.

Thanks to each and every one of you in this group. Couldn't have

done it without all your ideas.

--Padma

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You've got a point that likely is most appropriate for practices open more

than 1-2 years. But for discussions of new offices it can be useful to

compare how many patients have registered or have had appts (ie - " active "

patients). The recent discussions have all mentioned the number of

patients seen per day as well as the " total " .

And as it happens, I'm not counting the number of patients my insurers say

I have as I don't think that accurately reflects my " active " panel since I

moved. Many of those patients will actually be continuing with the old

practice and not with me in my new office. And I for one do not see

patients on an " urgent " basis that would lead me to think they may see

someone else for the next appt.

Tim

> I still think that we should talk in regards to " average patients per

> day " or something similar, rather than " total patients in panel. " To

> me, an arbitrary cut-off of 300 or 800 or whatever number of patients,

> is just that: arbitrary. For example, I've been open now for 2.5 years

> & have seen at least 1200 - 1500 new patients but still only average

> maybe 10 - 12 per day. I really want to average about 12 - 17 visits

> per day, so for me to close my panel just based on total patients would

> be silly. Also, if other practice locations are anything like mine you

> will find that many people go from doctor to doctor these days & just do

> not stick with a primary care doctor for life like they used to. It is

> not necessarily that we are doing something to make them dissatisfied,

> just that they want to try someone else " to get answers " to their

> medical problems " that no one can figure out. " Patients seem to treat

> FP's like an urgent care anymore, at least younger patients. A good

> example, is the other doctor here (Annie Skaggs I believe) that said she

> had seen 9000 patients & only 1000 were still active. I do not see

> myself closing to all new patients anytime soon, if ever, but I may pare

> down the lowest payors as I go.

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> Fast start-up

>

>

>

> Very impressive growth Padma!

>

> Your trajectory of growth is very steep.

> Be aware that the word-of-mouth tipping point seems to be at about 300

> patients.

> As a female doc you risk creating demand beyond your capacity.

> Be very careful that you close down the new patient volume before you

> hit full visit volume.

> What is your projected " full " target?

> Gordon

>

> At 09:52 AM 10/18/2006, you wrote:

>

> Hi everyone,

>

> I have an update on my practice in the Albany, NY area. Started in June

> at 9hr/week, and now 4 days a week since July 10th. Got to my 400th

> patient mark yesterday (after eliminating the inactivated

> ones). Seeing about 6-7 patients a day (if it was a 5 day week).

> About 35-40% are my patients from my previous practice. Averaging about

> 2 new patients a day, and 1-2 transfers from the old place. This

> includes 40 new patients at 2 assisted living home where I go to see

> patients once a week.

>

> My father (office manager) insisted I advertise heavily, and I

> reluctantly agreed, and it seems to have paid off. The most

> expensive advertising was in the beginning--direct mail cards in the

> local area, and then the 2 week run in the largest local newspaper--

> this was the only way I could let my old patients know where I was. The

> relatively cheaper weekly inserts in the Local free " advertiser " is

> getting me 40% of ongoing new patients and rest are by word of mouth.

> In my case, advertising has been very expensive, but helped me build a

> patient panel quickly, so in the long run will boost my bottomline.

>

> My billing person recommended conducting flu-clinics in the

> community--these we'll start this week. We'll see how it works. Have

> stated some Prolotherapy, and expect that to build up gradually. In the

> meantime, have been moonlighting for a hospitalist group which helps

> pay the bills. Will soon be picking up 50 nursing home

> patients. In the first year there will be no such thing as quality of

> life! After that I will drop the other gigs.

>

> The patients love the extended visits, and most of those who switch to

> me say they want a doctor who listens and cares.

>

> Thanks to each and every one of you in this group. Couldn't have

> done it without all your ideas.

>

> --Padma

>

>

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Yes, I think

many of our patients “cheat” on us & see other doctors prn more

than we realize.

Fast start-up

>

>

>

> Very impressive growth Padma!

>

> Your trajectory of growth is very steep.

> Be aware that the word-of-mouth tipping point seems to be at about 300

> patients.

> As a female doc you risk creating demand beyond your capacity.

> Be very careful that you close down the new patient volume before you

> hit full visit volume.

> What is your projected " full " target?

> Gordon

>

> At 09:52 AM 10/18/2006, you wrote:

>

> Hi everyone,

>

> I have an update on my practice in the Albany, NY area. Started in June

> at 9hr/week, and now 4 days a week since July 10th. Got to my 400th

> patient mark yesterday (after eliminating the inactivated

> ones). Seeing about 6-7 patients a day (if it was a 5 day week).

> About 35-40% are my patients from my previous practice. Averaging about

> 2 new patients a day, and 1-2 transfers from the old place. This

> includes 40 new patients at 2 assisted living home where I go to see

> patients once a week.

>

> My father (office manager) insisted I advertise heavily, and I

> reluctantly agreed, and it seems to have paid off. The most

> expensive advertising was in the beginning--direct mail cards in the

> local area, and then the 2 week run in the largest local newspaper--

> this was the only way I could let my old patients know where I was. The

> relatively cheaper weekly inserts in the Local free " advertiser "

is

> getting me 40% of ongoing new patients and rest are by word of mouth.

> In my case, advertising has been very expensive, but helped me build a

> patient panel quickly, so in the long run will boost my bottomline.

>

> My billing person recommended conducting flu-clinics in the

> community--these we'll start this week. We'll see how it works. Have

> stated some Prolotherapy, and expect that to build up gradually. In the

> meantime, have been moonlighting for a hospitalist group which helps

> pay the bills. Will soon be picking up 50 nursing home

> patients. In the first year there will be no such thing as quality of

> life! After that I will drop the other gigs.

>

> The patients love the extended visits, and most of those who switch to

> me say they want a doctor who listens and cares.

>

> Thanks to each and every one of you in this group. Couldn't have

> done it without all your ideas.

>

> --Padma

>

>

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Hello all,

I opened a solo practice in my home town in 2/06. I'm still trying to get a feel for where my growth/numbers should be. I have appoximately 700 patients enrolled and typically average 12-15 a day. Any advice out there on rates of growth of new practices, when to consider adding a mid-level provider or partner, etc. ?

Thanks,

Chad

--Chad Jumper, MD Boiling Springs Family Medicine 210 Forge Road-Suite 2 Boiling Springs, PA 17007 (717)249-8300

--------- Fast start-up>>>> Very impressive growth Padma!>> Your trajectory of growth is very steep.> Be aware that the word-of-mouth tipping point seems to be at about 300> patients.> As a female doc you risk creating demand beyond your capacity.> Be very careful that you close down the new patient volume before you> hit full visit volume.> What is your projected "full" target?> Gordon>> At 09:52 AM 10/18/2006, you wrote:>> Hi everyone,>> I have an update on my practice in the Albany, NY area. Started in June> at 9hr/week, and now 4 days a week since July 10th. Got to my 400th> patient mark yesterday (after eliminating the inactivated> ones). Seeing about 6-7 patients a day (if it was a 5 day week).> About 35-40% are my patients from my previous practice. Averaging about> 2 new patients a day, and 1-2 transfers from the old place. This> includes 40 new patients at 2 assisted living home where I go to see> patients once a week.>> My father (office manager) insisted I advertise

heavily, and I> reluctantly agreed, and it seems to have paid off. The most> expensive advertising was in the beginning--direct mail cards in the> local area, and then the 2 week run in the largest local newspaper--> this was the only way I could let my old patients know where I was. The> relatively cheaper weekly inserts in the Local free "advertiser" is> getting me 40% of ongoing new patients and rest are by word of mouth.> In my case, advertising has been very expensive, but helped me build a> patient panel quickly, so in the long run will boost my bottomline.>> My billing person recommended conducting flu-clinics in the> community--these we'll start this week. We'll see how it works. Have> stated some Prolotherapy, and expect that to build up gradually. In the> meantime, have been moonlighting for a hospitalist group which helps> pay the bills. Will soon be picking up 50 nursing h

ome> patients. In the first year there will be no such thing as quality of> life! After that I will drop the other gigs.>> The patients love the extended visits, and most of those who switch to> me say they want a doctor who listens and cares.>> Thanks to each and every one of you in this group. Couldn't have> done it without all your ideas.>> --Padma>>

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Along these lines I have been thinking about closing to new pt for about 1 yr now. I have more staff, 2, and a bigger floor space, so felt I needed to see more to cover this. I see anywhere from 10-20 people a day, on avg it'w 12-16, and that feels good. Then you throw in the Robin Hood, laser, botox, and Restylane, and I am making a livable wage. ( Along the lines of prev $ discussion, doubt I'll ever be above $100,000, just don't want to work 5d, etc. But I'm not the primary bread winner, my husband works as well, so we aren't poor, just not the typical doctor income.)

I've been open about 3.5 yr, came with no pt, so started from scratch. My question is this, once I am "closed to new pt" do I notify the insurance companies?, and how does that affect what they list about me online? One of my staff insists I have to tell them, and that they will take me off their website listing. This would be okay, but I just don't believe it's true, know lots of offices that are telling people they are closed but still online as open under the insurance's website. Also what if I then change my mind 6 mo later, and decide to "re-open". Can someone who has gone thru this already, speak to this issue? What I have done, so far, is no longer take new pt with my worst payor, ( got their okay, I am up to capacity on the % I want of them). I also limit to only 2 new pt a day, some days I have none, but this puts off the people who need to be seen today, and they generally go elsewhere.

I agree that what you have seen, isn't what you have, I have seen over 1800 clients, but would say my panel size is more like 800-1000. A child I hadn't seen for 3 yr, since the first couple wks I was open, came in last wk, with terrible asthma flare, had been seeing another local solo doctor, but "she's out this wk", so they just called here!. Didn't like the feeling that they could just bop in here, but given the alternative, felt the child needed care immed, and a "medical home" so just did it. THoughts from the group? Technically certainly could have referred to Urgent care, wasn't that ill, but clearly shouldn't be going back and forth between practices either. I think there is alot of that, from people who don't have many medical problems or any, it's whatever is most convenient at the time.

Cote

Four Corners Family Medicine, and Laser Aesthetics

ie magnetdoctor@...

--------- Fast start-up>>>> Very impressive growth Padma!>> Your trajectory of growth is very steep.> Be aware that the word-of-mouth tipping point seems to be at about 300> patients.> As a fema

le doc you risk creating demand beyond your capacity.> Be very careful that you close down the new patient volume before you> hit full visit volume.> What is your projected "full" target?> Gordon>> At 09:52 AM 10/18/2006, you wrote:>> Hi everyone,>> I have an update on my practice in the Albany, NY area. Started in June> at 9hr/week, and now 4 days a week since July 10th. Got to my 400th> patient mark yesterday (after eliminating the inactivated> ones). Seeing about 6-7 patients a day (if it was a 5 day week).> About 35-40% are my patients from my previous practice. Averaging about> 2 new patients a day, and 1-2 transfers from the old place. This> includes 40 new patients at 2 assisted living home where I go to see> patients once a week.>> My father (office manager) insisted I advertise heavily, and I> reluctantly agreed, and it seems to have p

aid off. The most> expensive advertising was in the beginning--direct mail cards in the> local area, and then the 2 week run in the largest local newspaper--> this was the only way I could let my old patients know where I was. The> relatively cheaper weekly inserts in the Local free "advertiser" is> getting me 40% of ongoing new patients and rest are by word of mouth.> In my case, advertising has been very expensive, but helped me build a> patient panel quickly, so in the long run will boost my bottomline.>> My billing person recommended conducting flu-clinics in the> community--these we'll start this week. We'll see how it works. Have> stated some Prolotherapy, and expect that to build up gradually. In the> meantime, have been moonlighting for a hospitalist group which helps> pay the bills. Will soon be picking up 50 nursing home> patients. In the first year there will be no such thin

g as quality of> life! After that I will drop the other gigs.>> The patients love the extended visits, and most of those who switch to> me say they want a doctor who listens and cares.>> Thanks to each and every one of you in this group. Couldn't have> done it without all your ideas.>> --Padma>>

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Along these lines I have been thinking about closing to new pt for about 1 yr now. I have more staff, 2, and a bigger floor space, so felt I needed to see more to cover this. I see anywhere from 10-20 people a day, on avg it'w 12-16, and that feels good. Then you throw in the Robin Hood, laser, botox, and Restylane, and I am making a livable wage. ( Along the lines of prev $ discussion, doubt I'll ever be above $100,000, just don't want to work 5d, etc. But I'm not the primary bread winner, my husband works as well, so we aren't poor, just not the typical doctor income.)

I've been open about 3.5 yr, came with no pt, so started from scratch. My question is this, once I am "closed to new pt" do I notify the insurance companies?, and how does that affect what they list about me online? One of my staff insists I have to tell them, and that they will take me off their website listing. This would be okay, but I just don't believe it's true, know lots of offices that are telling people they are closed but still online as open under the insurance's website. Also what if I then change my mind 6 mo later, and decide to "re-open". Can someone who has gone thru this already, speak to this issue? What I have done, so far, is no longer take new pt with my worst payor, ( got their okay, I am up to capacity on the % I want of them). I also limit to only 2 new pt a day, some days I have none, but this puts off the people who need to be seen today, and they generally go elsewhere.

I agree that what you have seen, isn't what you have, I have seen over 1800 clients, but would say my panel size is more like 800-1000. A child I hadn't seen for 3 yr, since the first couple wks I was open, came in last wk, with terrible asthma flare, had been seeing another local solo doctor, but "she's out this wk", so they just called here!. Didn't like the feeling that they could just bop in here, but given the alternative, felt the child needed care immed, and a "medical home" so just did it. THoughts from the group? Technically certainly could have referred to Urgent care, wasn't that ill, but clearly shouldn't be going back and forth between practices either. I think there is alot of that, from people who don't have many medical problems or any, it's whatever is most convenient at the time.

Cote

Four Corners Family Medicine, and Laser Aesthetics

ie magnetdoctor@...

--------- Fast start-up>>>> Very impressive growth Padma!>> Your trajectory of growth is very steep.> Be aware that the word-of-mouth tipping point seems to be at about 300> patients.> As a fema

le doc you risk creating demand beyond your capacity.> Be very careful that you close down the new patient volume before you> hit full visit volume.> What is your projected "full" target?> Gordon>> At 09:52 AM 10/18/2006, you wrote:>> Hi everyone,>> I have an update on my practice in the Albany, NY area. Started in June> at 9hr/week, and now 4 days a week since July 10th. Got to my 400th> patient mark yesterday (after eliminating the inactivated> ones). Seeing about 6-7 patients a day (if it was a 5 day week).> About 35-40% are my patients from my previous practice. Averaging about> 2 new patients a day, and 1-2 transfers from the old place. This> includes 40 new patients at 2 assisted living home where I go to see> patients once a week.>> My father (office manager) insisted I advertise heavily, and I> reluctantly agreed, and it seems to have p

aid off. The most> expensive advertising was in the beginning--direct mail cards in the> local area, and then the 2 week run in the largest local newspaper--> this was the only way I could let my old patients know where I was. The> relatively cheaper weekly inserts in the Local free "advertiser" is> getting me 40% of ongoing new patients and rest are by word of mouth.> In my case, advertising has been very expensive, but helped me build a> patient panel quickly, so in the long run will boost my bottomline.>> My billing person recommended conducting flu-clinics in the> community--these we'll start this week. We'll see how it works. Have> stated some Prolotherapy, and expect that to build up gradually. In the> meantime, have been moonlighting for a hospitalist group which helps> pay the bills. Will soon be picking up 50 nursing home> patients. In the first year there will be no such thin

g as quality of> life! After that I will drop the other gigs.>> The patients love the extended visits, and most of those who switch to> me say they want a doctor who listens and cares.>> Thanks to each and every one of you in this group. Couldn't have> done it without all your ideas.>> --Padma>>

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That “beebopping” back and forth between offices is

commonplace here. And the reason for choosing a particular office on any

particular day is often guided by factors that we might disapprove of. I have

had people come right out and tell me that they went to the urgent care place

instead of calling me because they knew I would say the didn’t really

need an antibiotic for their allergies, but they wanted a Zpack

anyway, so they went where they knew they could get it without a fight.

I really wish I knew how to objectively

study patient behavior. The studies

I have seen all rely on self reported survey data, and I don’ think it is

accurate. What people say they want, and what they really go out and get seem to be very

different things.

Annie

RE:

Fast start-up

A child I hadn't seen for 3 yr, since the first couple

wks I was open, came in last wk, with terrible asthma flare, had been seeing

another local solo doctor, but " she's out this wk " , so they just

called here!. Didn't like the feeling that they could just bop in here,

but given the alternative, felt the child needed care immed, and a

" medical home " so just did it. THoughts from the group?

Technically certainly could have referred to Urgent care, wasn't that ill, but

clearly shouldn't be going back and forth between practices either. I

think there is alot of that, from people who don't have many medical problems

or any, it's whatever is most convenient at the time.

Cote

Four Corners

Family Medicine, and Laser Aesthetics

ie magnetdoctorcomcast (DOT) net

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I think that you have to keep in touch somehow with these patients. For

example, give them magnet cards, e-mail a health information to them...

things like that. Do you think it may help ?

> That “beebopping†back and forth between offices is commonplace here.

> And the reason for choosing a particular office on any particular day

> is often guided by factors that we might disapprove of. I have had

> people come right out and tell me that they went to the urgent care

> place instead of calling me because they knew I would say the didn’t

> really need an antibiotic for their allergies, but they wanted a Zpack

> anyway, so they went where they knew they could get it without a

> fight.  

>

>  

>

> I really wish I knew how to objectively study patient behavior.  The

> studies I have seen all rely on self reported survey data, and I don’

> think it is accurate.  What people say they want, and what they really

> go out and get seem to be very different things.

>

> Annie

>

>  

>

>  

>

> RE: Fast start-up

>

>  

>

> A child I hadn't seen for 3 yr, since the first couple wks I was open,

> came in last wk, with terrible asthma flare, had been seeing another

> local solo doctor, but " she's out this wk " , so they just called

> here!.  Didn't like the feeling that they could just bop in here, but

> given the alternative, felt the child needed care immed, and a

> " medical home " so just did it.  THoughts from the group?  Technically

> certainly could have referred to Urgent care, wasn't that ill, but

> clearly shouldn't be going back and forth between practices either.  I

> think there is alot of that, from people who don't have many medical

> problems or any, it's whatever is most convenient at the time.

>

>  

>

> Cote

>

> Four Corners Family Medicine, and Laser Aesthetics

>

> ie magnetdoctor@...

>

>  

>

>

>

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Hi Anemaria,

Although I think your ideas are good, they

miss the point a little. My

patients who “sleep around” know perfectly well where I am and how

to get to me. They simply choose to “go around” me because it is

too their liking to do so…And our “system” allows them to do

so with no penalty. Not that I have

any great love of “PCP

directed care” which seems only to throw me under the wheels of their

health plans money saving plans..If

patients want to go around me, they are probably people I would not want to restrict

from anything anyway..

Annie

RE: Fast start-up

A child I hadn't seen

for 3 yr, since the first couple wks I was open, came in last wk, with terrible

asthma flare, had been seeing another local solo doctor, but " she's out

this wk " , so they just called here!. Didn't like the feeling that

they could just bop in here, but given the alternative, felt the child needed

care immed, and a " medical home " so just did it. THoughts from

the group? Technically certainly could have referred to Urgent care,

wasn't that ill, but clearly shouldn't be going back and forth between

practices either. I think there is alot of that, from people who don't

have many medical problems or any, it's whatever is most convenient at the time.

Cote

Four Corners

Family Medicine, and Laser Aesthetics

ie magnetdoctor@...

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I agree completely. I do send all my pt a magnetic refridgerator calender, and I carry my cell at all time, no answering service, you call after hrs it's me. They just do what is easiest/ gives them the result they desire at the time. My pt with mult problems, for them it's too much hassle to tell the whole story to a new doctor, or Urgent care "provider", and they might actually get hospitalized! They will come to me, but the ones who are healthy, or non-compliant, or in search of an antibiotic for a virus, etc, will go where they percieve it's easiest to get in and get out.

Cote

--------- RE: Fast start-up A child I hadn't seen for 3 yr, since the first couple wks I was open, came in last wk, with terrible asthma flare, had been seeing another local solo doctor, but "she's out this wk", so they just called here!. Didn't like the feeling that they could just bop in here, but given the alternative, felt the child needed care immed, and a "medical hom

e" so just did it. THoughts from the group? Technically certainly could have referred to Urgent care, wasn't that ill, but clearly shouldn't be going back and forth between practices either. I think there is alot of that, from people who don't have many medical problems or any, it's whatever is most convenient at the time. CoteFour Corners Family Medicine, and Laser Aestheticsie magnetdoctorcomcast (DOT) net

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