RE: Re: Basic symmetry site questions

[Guest guest]

Nita,I've only seen one or two people with global coherences even in the 80's. In both cases there was severe tension (scalp tension is harder to see). What causes most signals to be coherent is that they are coming from the same source. As we discuss in Level 2, the source for slower EEG signals (alpha and below) is subcortical generators in the brain. But any source of electrical signals--and muscle tension is certainly one of those--will result in highly coherent signals. All the signals you are reading are coming from the same source.

Try doing some progressive relaxation or autogenic training when the client sits down and before you put on the electrodes. See if, as he/she begins to relax more deeply, you see reductions in coherence and amplitude and fastwave activity.

Presumably, if you have significant electromagnetic field activity, it will show up in all clients all the time, unless it is related to a particular piece of equipment (roof A/C unit, etc.) going on and off.Pete

Pete,

Excellent reference. It is very helpful to know the higher Alpha is the stronger culprit. I suspected what you are saying, it matters all over.

I am having some electrical interference issues now and again. I will watch closely for reasons other than the brain. At first I did kind of ignore it as my instinct said " how can it be THAT high? " , but each and every time I've checked it is in the 90's at every frequencey. I sometimes check mid training, sometimes during a quick assessment along the frontal sites. So, the muscle tension can throw the coherence across the entire head? He definitely has muscle tension. If I am using the same set up and location, in the room, for each person I train will it affect everyone's coherence the same way, or is it person specific?

-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.com305/433-3160The Learning Curve, Inc.

[Guest guest]

This issue of muscular tension is

one of the reasons I created a new set of training screens (Integrated

Neurofeedback) from scratch. See attachment.

Every screen has 2 bargraphs to

verify eye movement and muscular tension in general (0.5-3 Hz and 52-58 Hz).

They will stop feedback from the main bargraph (w-squash, squish, direct reward,

complex ratios, etc.) as soon as they reach a certain level. If someone does

not want to use them, you simply raise the threshold very high. But you are

still able to see the raise of these low and high artifacts.

There was a lecture from the

creator of the Loreta technique at ISNR meeting. One very important thing he mentioned

was that coherence between 2 sites can be affected, indeed, by anything in the

brain that will affect the 2 sites in a similar way at the same time!  It seems

so simple said this way.

The 2 sites could be bouncing

together because a third site (an external cause, etc.) is kicking them the

same way. And maybe not because they are doing their things together. He suggested

reviewing our understanding of coherence and that we should be careful with this

concept.

Francois Dupont

http://www3.sympatico.ca/fdupont-phd

Clinical, health, and rehabilitation

psychology

Therapy, assessment, and consultation

Private practice fdupont-phd@...

Universite/y d’/of Ottawa; Service de

sante / Health Services

100-100 Marie-Curie, Ottawa, Ontario, K1N 6N5 Canada

Tel. : poste/ext. 500; Fax :

De :

braintrainer

[mailto:braintrainer ]

De la part de Anita Fain

Envoyé : 7 octobre 2008 00:38

À : braintrainer

Objet : Re:

Re: Basic symmetry site questions

Pete,

Excellent reference. It is very helpful to

know the higher Alpha is the stronger culprit. I suspected what you are

saying, it matters all over.

I am having some electrical interference issues now

and again. I will watch closely for reasons other than the brain.

At first I did kind of ignore it as my instinct said " how can it be THAT

high? " , but each and every time I've checked it is in the 90's at every

frequencey. I sometimes check mid training, sometimes during a quick

assessment along the frontal sites. So, the muscle tension can throw the coherence across

the entire head? He definitely has muscle tension. If I am using

the same set up and location, in the room, for each person I train will it

affect everyone's coherence the same way, or is it person specific?

-Nita

I agree with so much of what I

read along this thread. Who knew I was opening such a can of worms.

Tony is quite right. It's not that I have any exact answers but

instead have a tool box with new tools being added all the time. I

try what makes sense to me and keep what works for me.

Pete, I will say something

that has occured to me over time. Because I do not do this

professionally I have much stronger focus on each of the people I train.

I have a spiral for each and I take notes. I know the parents

personally I speak with them every week, of course one of them is me.

I tell then which training sessions I was fantastic results and which I

didn't. We compare notes on what was different. We work

together. I make suggestions, she tells me what their doctors say.

It's a team effort. We don't all agree all the time but we know so

much more because of this. I have encouraged the other mom to please

please please stop the sodas, the caffeine of any kind and NO artificial

sweeteners. I suspect she allows it some but it's obviously less

often and at least she knows I'll complain if I see them carrying such

things in with them. I can tell her, no this isn't your daughter

being difficult and lazy, the numbers fit what you are saying, a kid who

really tanked last week and is struggling. I don't know how we'd be

as successful without this close information exchange. I would say,

for me, that having all this support and information exchange also helps

keep me motivated. She has encouraged me to do it professionally but

honestly I don't know if I would feel the same way if I had patients and

not this type of situation. I include in that list this message

board. Where would I get the tools I use?

So there is my hometrainer

view.

Having said

that I don't think I ever got an answer on my main question, is there

supposed to be symmetry between the left and right hemisphere all over, say

Fp1 Fp2, T3, T4, F3 F4, C3 C4, P3 P4? or only more toward the frontal and

temporal areas? I mean symmetry along the 1.1 ratio? And is

that also true front to back Fz Pz or instead Fz Oz? Come on ,

Pete, ... you must know the answer. :-)

And as for

coherence training, blek! I guess it will get better? Telling

the to just make it show the right amount of coherence stinks. I am

still using adjustments on one sit and not another to help jar loose those

90+ marks of coherence across the front in every frequency but the

coherence numbers themselves haven't budged, even as the symmetry has.

-Nita

--

Van Deusen

pvdtlcgmail (DOT) com

http://www.brain-

trainer.com

305/433-3160

The Learning Curve, Inc.

[Guest guest]

This issue of muscular tension is

one of the reasons I created a new set of training screens (Integrated

Neurofeedback) from scratch. See attachment.

Every screen has 2 bargraphs to

verify eye movement and muscular tension in general (0.5-3 Hz and 52-58 Hz).

They will stop feedback from the main bargraph (w-squash, squish, direct reward,

complex ratios, etc.) as soon as they reach a certain level. If someone does

not want to use them, you simply raise the threshold very high. But you are

still able to see the raise of these low and high artifacts.

There was a lecture from the

creator of the Loreta technique at ISNR meeting. One very important thing he mentioned

was that coherence between 2 sites can be affected, indeed, by anything in the

brain that will affect the 2 sites in a similar way at the same time!  It seems

so simple said this way.

The 2 sites could be bouncing

together because a third site (an external cause, etc.) is kicking them the

same way. And maybe not because they are doing their things together. He suggested

reviewing our understanding of coherence and that we should be careful with this

concept.

Francois Dupont

http://www3.sympatico.ca/fdupont-phd

Clinical, health, and rehabilitation

psychology

Therapy, assessment, and consultation

Private practice fdupont-phd@...

Universite/y d’/of Ottawa; Service de

sante / Health Services

100-100 Marie-Curie, Ottawa, Ontario, K1N 6N5 Canada

Tel. : poste/ext. 500; Fax :

De :

braintrainer

[mailto:braintrainer ]

De la part de Anita Fain

Envoyé : 7 octobre 2008 00:38

À : braintrainer

Objet : Re:

Re: Basic symmetry site questions

Pete,

Excellent reference. It is very helpful to

know the higher Alpha is the stronger culprit. I suspected what you are

saying, it matters all over.

I am having some electrical interference issues now

and again. I will watch closely for reasons other than the brain.

At first I did kind of ignore it as my instinct said " how can it be THAT

high? " , but each and every time I've checked it is in the 90's at every

frequencey. I sometimes check mid training, sometimes during a quick

assessment along the frontal sites. So, the muscle tension can throw the coherence across

the entire head? He definitely has muscle tension. If I am using

the same set up and location, in the room, for each person I train will it

affect everyone's coherence the same way, or is it person specific?

-Nita

I agree with so much of what I

read along this thread. Who knew I was opening such a can of worms.

Tony is quite right. It's not that I have any exact answers but

instead have a tool box with new tools being added all the time. I

try what makes sense to me and keep what works for me.

Pete, I will say something

that has occured to me over time. Because I do not do this

professionally I have much stronger focus on each of the people I train.

I have a spiral for each and I take notes. I know the parents

personally I speak with them every week, of course one of them is me.

I tell then which training sessions I was fantastic results and which I

didn't. We compare notes on what was different. We work

together. I make suggestions, she tells me what their doctors say.

It's a team effort. We don't all agree all the time but we know so

much more because of this. I have encouraged the other mom to please

please please stop the sodas, the caffeine of any kind and NO artificial

sweeteners. I suspect she allows it some but it's obviously less

often and at least she knows I'll complain if I see them carrying such

things in with them. I can tell her, no this isn't your daughter

being difficult and lazy, the numbers fit what you are saying, a kid who

really tanked last week and is struggling. I don't know how we'd be

as successful without this close information exchange. I would say,

for me, that having all this support and information exchange also helps

keep me motivated. She has encouraged me to do it professionally but

honestly I don't know if I would feel the same way if I had patients and

not this type of situation. I include in that list this message

board. Where would I get the tools I use?

So there is my hometrainer

view.

Having said

that I don't think I ever got an answer on my main question, is there

supposed to be symmetry between the left and right hemisphere all over, say

Fp1 Fp2, T3, T4, F3 F4, C3 C4, P3 P4? or only more toward the frontal and

temporal areas? I mean symmetry along the 1.1 ratio? And is

that also true front to back Fz Pz or instead Fz Oz? Come on ,

Pete, ... you must know the answer. :-)

And as for

coherence training, blek! I guess it will get better? Telling

the to just make it show the right amount of coherence stinks. I am

still using adjustments on one sit and not another to help jar loose those

90+ marks of coherence across the front in every frequency but the

coherence numbers themselves haven't budged, even as the symmetry has.

-Nita

--

Van Deusen

pvdtlcgmail (DOT) com

http://www.brain-

trainer.com

305/433-3160

The Learning Curve, Inc.

[Guest guest]

This issue of muscular tension is

one of the reasons I created a new set of training screens (Integrated

Neurofeedback) from scratch. See attachment.

Every screen has 2 bargraphs to

verify eye movement and muscular tension in general (0.5-3 Hz and 52-58 Hz).

They will stop feedback from the main bargraph (w-squash, squish, direct reward,

complex ratios, etc.) as soon as they reach a certain level. If someone does

not want to use them, you simply raise the threshold very high. But you are

still able to see the raise of these low and high artifacts.

There was a lecture from the

creator of the Loreta technique at ISNR meeting. One very important thing he mentioned

was that coherence between 2 sites can be affected, indeed, by anything in the

brain that will affect the 2 sites in a similar way at the same time!  It seems

so simple said this way.

The 2 sites could be bouncing

together because a third site (an external cause, etc.) is kicking them the

same way. And maybe not because they are doing their things together. He suggested

reviewing our understanding of coherence and that we should be careful with this

concept.

Francois Dupont

http://www3.sympatico.ca/fdupont-phd

Clinical, health, and rehabilitation

psychology

Therapy, assessment, and consultation

Private practice fdupont-phd@...

Universite/y d’/of Ottawa; Service de

sante / Health Services

100-100 Marie-Curie, Ottawa, Ontario, K1N 6N5 Canada

Tel. : poste/ext. 500; Fax :

De :

braintrainer

[mailto:braintrainer ]

De la part de Anita Fain

Envoyé : 7 octobre 2008 00:38

À : braintrainer

Objet : Re:

Re: Basic symmetry site questions

Pete,

Excellent reference. It is very helpful to

know the higher Alpha is the stronger culprit. I suspected what you are

saying, it matters all over.

I am having some electrical interference issues now

and again. I will watch closely for reasons other than the brain.

At first I did kind of ignore it as my instinct said " how can it be THAT

high? " , but each and every time I've checked it is in the 90's at every

frequencey. I sometimes check mid training, sometimes during a quick

assessment along the frontal sites. So, the muscle tension can throw the coherence across

the entire head? He definitely has muscle tension. If I am using

the same set up and location, in the room, for each person I train will it

affect everyone's coherence the same way, or is it person specific?

-Nita

I agree with so much of what I

read along this thread. Who knew I was opening such a can of worms.

Tony is quite right. It's not that I have any exact answers but

instead have a tool box with new tools being added all the time. I

try what makes sense to me and keep what works for me.

Pete, I will say something

that has occured to me over time. Because I do not do this

professionally I have much stronger focus on each of the people I train.

I have a spiral for each and I take notes. I know the parents

personally I speak with them every week, of course one of them is me.

I tell then which training sessions I was fantastic results and which I

didn't. We compare notes on what was different. We work

together. I make suggestions, she tells me what their doctors say.

It's a team effort. We don't all agree all the time but we know so

much more because of this. I have encouraged the other mom to please

please please stop the sodas, the caffeine of any kind and NO artificial

sweeteners. I suspect she allows it some but it's obviously less

often and at least she knows I'll complain if I see them carrying such

things in with them. I can tell her, no this isn't your daughter

being difficult and lazy, the numbers fit what you are saying, a kid who

really tanked last week and is struggling. I don't know how we'd be

as successful without this close information exchange. I would say,

for me, that having all this support and information exchange also helps

keep me motivated. She has encouraged me to do it professionally but

honestly I don't know if I would feel the same way if I had patients and

not this type of situation. I include in that list this message

board. Where would I get the tools I use?

So there is my hometrainer

view.

Having said

that I don't think I ever got an answer on my main question, is there

supposed to be symmetry between the left and right hemisphere all over, say

Fp1 Fp2, T3, T4, F3 F4, C3 C4, P3 P4? or only more toward the frontal and

temporal areas? I mean symmetry along the 1.1 ratio? And is

that also true front to back Fz Pz or instead Fz Oz? Come on ,

Pete, ... you must know the answer. :-)

And as for

coherence training, blek! I guess it will get better? Telling

the to just make it show the right amount of coherence stinks. I am

still using adjustments on one sit and not another to help jar loose those

90+ marks of coherence across the front in every frequency but the

coherence numbers themselves haven't budged, even as the symmetry has.

-Nita

--

Van Deusen

pvdtlcgmail (DOT) com

http://www.brain-

trainer.com

305/433-3160

The Learning Curve, Inc.

[Guest guest]

I forgot to mention that this is also the

case with coherence, of course! See attachement.

Francois Dupont

Clinical, health, and rehabilitation

psychology

Therapy, assessment, and consultation

Private practice fdupont-phd@...

Universite/y d’/of Ottawa;

Service de sante / Health Services

100-100 Marie-Curie, Ottawa, Ontario, K1N

6N5 Canada

Tel. : poste/ext. 500; Fax :

De :

braintrainer [mailto:braintrainer ] De la part de Francois Dupont, Ph.D.,

C.Psych.

Envoyé : 7 octobre 2008 17:55

À :

braintrainer

Objet : RE:

Re: Basic symmetry site questions

This issue of muscular tension is one of the reasons I

created a new set of training screens (Integrated Neurofeedback) from scratch.

See attachment.

Every screen has 2 bargraphs to verify eye movement and

muscular tension in general (0.5-3 Hz and 52-58 Hz). They will stop feedback

from the main bargraph (w-squash, squish, direct reward, complex ratios, etc.)

as soon as they reach a certain level. If someone does not want to use them,

you simply raise the threshold very high. But you are still able to see the

raise of these low and high artifacts.

There was a lecture from the creator of the Loreta

technique at ISNR meeting. One very important thing he mentioned was that coherence

between 2 sites can be affected, indeed, by anything in the brain that will

affect the 2 sites in a similar way at the same time! It seems so simple

said this way.

The 2

sites could be bouncing together because a third site (an external cause, etc.)

is kicking them the same way. And maybe not because they are doing their things

together. He suggested reviewing our understanding of coherence and that we

should be careful with this concept.

Francois

Dupont

http://www3.sympatico.ca/fdupont-phd

Clinical,

health, and rehabilitation psychology

Therapy,

assessment, and consultation

Private

practice fdupont-phdsympatico (DOT) ca

Universite/y

d’/of Ottawa; Service de sante / Health

Services

100-100 Marie-Curie, Ottawa, Ontario, K1N

6N5 Canada

Tel. : (613)

564-3950 poste/ext. 500; Fax :

De : braintrainer

[mailto:braintrainer ] De la part de Anita Fain

Envoyé : 7 octobre 2008 00:38

À : braintrainer

Objet : Re: Re:

Basic symmetry site questions

Pete,

Excellent

reference. It is very helpful to know the higher Alpha is the stronger

culprit. I suspected what you are saying, it matters all over.

I am

having some electrical interference issues now and again. I will watch

closely for reasons other than the brain. At first I did kind of ignore

it as my instinct said " how can it be THAT high? " , but each and

every time I've checked it is in the 90's at every frequencey. I

sometimes check mid training, sometimes during a quick assessment along the

frontal sites. So, the muscle

tension can throw the coherence across the entire head? He definitely

has muscle tension. If I am using the same set up and location, in the

room, for each person I train will it affect everyone's coherence the same

way, or is it person specific?

-Nita

I agree with so much of what I read along this thread.

Who knew I was opening such a can of worms. Tony is quite right.

It's not that I have any exact answers but instead have a tool box with new

tools being added all the time. I try what makes sense to me and keep

what works for me.

Pete, I will say something that has occured to me over

time. Because I do not do this professionally I have much stronger

focus on each of the people I train. I have a spiral for each and I

take notes. I know the parents personally I speak with them every

week, of course one of them is me. I tell then which training

sessions I was fantastic results and which I didn't. We compare notes

on what was different. We work together. I make suggestions,

she tells me what their doctors say. It's a team effort. We

don't all agree all the time but we know so much more because of this.

I have encouraged the other mom to please please please stop the sodas, the

caffeine of any kind and NO artificial sweeteners. I suspect she

allows it some but it's obviously less often and at least she knows I'll

complain if I see them carrying such things in with them. I can tell

her, no this isn't your daughter being difficult and lazy, the numbers

fit what you are saying, a kid who really tanked last week and is

struggling. I don't know how we'd be as successful without this close

information exchange. I would say, for me, that having all this

support and information exchange also helps keep me motivated. She

has encouraged me to do it professionally but honestly I don't know if I

would feel the same way if I had patients and not this type of situation.

I include in that list this message board. Where would I get the

tools I use?

So there is my hometrainer view.

Having said that I don't think I ever

got an answer on my main question, is there supposed to be symmetry between

the left and right hemisphere all over, say Fp1 Fp2, T3, T4, F3 F4, C3 C4,

P3 P4? or only more toward the frontal and temporal areas? I mean

symmetry along the 1.1 ratio? And is that also true front to back Fz

Pz or instead Fz Oz? Come on , Pete, ... you must

know the answer. :-)

And as for coherence training, blek!

I guess it will get better? Telling the to just make it show the

right amount of coherence stinks. I am still using adjustments on one

sit and not another to help jar loose those 90+ marks of coherence across

the front in every frequency but the coherence numbers themselves haven't

budged, even as the symmetry has.

-Nita

--

Van Deusen

pvdtlcgmail (DOT) com

http://www.brain-

trainer.com

305/433-3160

The Learning Curve, Inc.

 

[Guest guest]

I forgot to mention that this is also the

case with coherence, of course! See attachement.

Francois Dupont

Clinical, health, and rehabilitation

psychology

Therapy, assessment, and consultation

Private practice fdupont-phd@...

Universite/y d’/of Ottawa;

Service de sante / Health Services

100-100 Marie-Curie, Ottawa, Ontario, K1N

6N5 Canada

Tel. : poste/ext. 500; Fax :

De :

braintrainer [mailto:braintrainer ] De la part de Francois Dupont, Ph.D.,

C.Psych.

Envoyé : 7 octobre 2008 17:55

À :

braintrainer

Objet : RE:

Re: Basic symmetry site questions

This issue of muscular tension is one of the reasons I

created a new set of training screens (Integrated Neurofeedback) from scratch.

See attachment.

Every screen has 2 bargraphs to verify eye movement and

muscular tension in general (0.5-3 Hz and 52-58 Hz). They will stop feedback

from the main bargraph (w-squash, squish, direct reward, complex ratios, etc.)

as soon as they reach a certain level. If someone does not want to use them,

you simply raise the threshold very high. But you are still able to see the

raise of these low and high artifacts.

There was a lecture from the creator of the Loreta

technique at ISNR meeting. One very important thing he mentioned was that coherence

between 2 sites can be affected, indeed, by anything in the brain that will

affect the 2 sites in a similar way at the same time! It seems so simple

said this way.

The 2

sites could be bouncing together because a third site (an external cause, etc.)

is kicking them the same way. And maybe not because they are doing their things

together. He suggested reviewing our understanding of coherence and that we

should be careful with this concept.

Francois

Dupont

http://www3.sympatico.ca/fdupont-phd

Clinical,

health, and rehabilitation psychology

Therapy,

assessment, and consultation

Private

practice fdupont-phdsympatico (DOT) ca

Universite/y

d’/of Ottawa; Service de sante / Health

Services

100-100 Marie-Curie, Ottawa, Ontario, K1N

6N5 Canada

Tel. : (613)

564-3950 poste/ext. 500; Fax :

De : braintrainer

[mailto:braintrainer ] De la part de Anita Fain

Envoyé : 7 octobre 2008 00:38

À : braintrainer

Objet : Re: Re:

Basic symmetry site questions

Pete,

Excellent

reference. It is very helpful to know the higher Alpha is the stronger

culprit. I suspected what you are saying, it matters all over.

I am

having some electrical interference issues now and again. I will watch

closely for reasons other than the brain. At first I did kind of ignore

it as my instinct said " how can it be THAT high? " , but each and

every time I've checked it is in the 90's at every frequencey. I

sometimes check mid training, sometimes during a quick assessment along the

frontal sites. So, the muscle

tension can throw the coherence across the entire head? He definitely

has muscle tension. If I am using the same set up and location, in the

room, for each person I train will it affect everyone's coherence the same

way, or is it person specific?

-Nita

I agree with so much of what I read along this thread.

Who knew I was opening such a can of worms. Tony is quite right.

It's not that I have any exact answers but instead have a tool box with new

tools being added all the time. I try what makes sense to me and keep

what works for me.

Pete, I will say something that has occured to me over

time. Because I do not do this professionally I have much stronger

focus on each of the people I train. I have a spiral for each and I

take notes. I know the parents personally I speak with them every

week, of course one of them is me. I tell then which training

sessions I was fantastic results and which I didn't. We compare notes

on what was different. We work together. I make suggestions,

she tells me what their doctors say. It's a team effort. We

don't all agree all the time but we know so much more because of this.

I have encouraged the other mom to please please please stop the sodas, the

caffeine of any kind and NO artificial sweeteners. I suspect she

allows it some but it's obviously less often and at least she knows I'll

complain if I see them carrying such things in with them. I can tell

her, no this isn't your daughter being difficult and lazy, the numbers

fit what you are saying, a kid who really tanked last week and is

struggling. I don't know how we'd be as successful without this close

information exchange. I would say, for me, that having all this

support and information exchange also helps keep me motivated. She

has encouraged me to do it professionally but honestly I don't know if I

would feel the same way if I had patients and not this type of situation.

I include in that list this message board. Where would I get the

tools I use?

So there is my hometrainer view.

Having said that I don't think I ever

got an answer on my main question, is there supposed to be symmetry between

the left and right hemisphere all over, say Fp1 Fp2, T3, T4, F3 F4, C3 C4,

P3 P4? or only more toward the frontal and temporal areas? I mean

symmetry along the 1.1 ratio? And is that also true front to back Fz

Pz or instead Fz Oz? Come on , Pete, ... you must

know the answer. :-)

And as for coherence training, blek!

I guess it will get better? Telling the to just make it show the

right amount of coherence stinks. I am still using adjustments on one

sit and not another to help jar loose those 90+ marks of coherence across

the front in every frequency but the coherence numbers themselves haven't

budged, even as the symmetry has.

-Nita

--

Van Deusen

pvdtlcgmail (DOT) com

http://www.brain-

trainer.com

305/433-3160

The Learning Curve, Inc.

 

[Guest guest]

What ever happened to the the updated suite that was due to be shipped to those of us who bought from Pete a while back. Last I heard it was going to be sent in september.

Bruce

RE: Re: Basic symmetry site questions

I forgot to mention that this is also the case with coherence, of course! See attachement.

Francois Dupont

Clinical, health, and rehabilitation psychology

Therapy, assessment, and consultation

Private practice fdupont-phdsympatico (DOT) ca

Universite/y d’/of Ottawa; Service de sante / Health Services

100-100 Marie-Curie, Ottawa, Ontario, K1N 6N5 Canada

Tel. : poste/ext. 500; Fax :

De : braintrainer [mailto:braintrainer ] De la part de Francois Dupont, Ph.D., C.Psych.Envoyé : 7 octobre 2008 17:55À : braintrainer Objet : RE: Re: Basic symmetry site questions

This issue of muscular tension is one of the reasons I created a new set of training screens (Integrated Neurofeedback) from scratch. See attachment.

Every screen has 2 bargraphs to verify eye movement and muscular tension in general (0.5-3 Hz and 52-58 Hz). They will stop feedback from the main bargraph (w-squash, squish, direct reward, complex ratios, etc.) as soon as they reach a certain level. If someone does not want to use them, you simply raise the threshold very high. But you are still able to see the raise of these low and high artifacts.

There was a lecture from the creator of the Loreta technique at ISNR meeting. One very important thing he mentioned was that coherence between 2 sites can be affected, indeed, by anything in the brain that will affect the 2 sites in a similar way at the same time! It seems so simple said this way.

The 2 sites could be bouncing together because a third site (an external cause, etc.) is kicking them the same way. And maybe not because they are doing their things together. He suggested reviewing our understanding of coherence and that we should be careful with this concept.

Francois Dupont

http://www3.sympatico.ca/fdupont-phd

Clinical, health, and rehabilitation psychology

Therapy, assessment, and consultation

Private practice fdupont-phdsympatico (DOT) ca

Universite/y d’/of Ottawa; Service de sante / Health Services

100-100 Marie-Curie, Ottawa, Ontario, K1N 6N5 Canada

Tel. : poste/ext. 500; Fax :

De : braintrainer [mailto:braintrainer ] De la part de Anita FainEnvoyé : 7 octobre 2008 00:38À : braintrainer Objet : Re: Re: Basic symmetry site questions

Pete,

Excellent reference. It is very helpful to know the higher Alpha is the stronger culprit. I suspected what you are saying, it matters all over.

I am having some electrical interference issues now and again. I will watch closely for reasons other than the brain. At first I did kind of ignore it as my instinct said "how can it be THAT high?", but each and every time I've checked it is in the 90's at every frequencey. I sometimes check mid training, sometimes during a quick assessment along the frontal sites. So, the muscle tension can throw the coherence across the entire head? He definitely has muscle tension. If I am using the same set up and location, in the room, for each person I train will it affect everyone's coherence the same way, or is it person specific?

-Nita

I agree with so much of what I read along this thread. Who knew I was opening such a can of worms. Tony is quite right. It's not that I have any exact answers but instead have a tool box with new tools being added all the time. I try what makes sense to me and keep what works for me.

Pete, I will say something that has occured to me over time. Because I do not do this professionally I have much stronger focus on each of the people I train. I have a spiral for each and I take notes. I know the parents personally I speak with them every week, of course one of them is me. I tell then which training sessions I was fantastic results and which I didn't. We compare notes on what was different. We work together. I make suggestions, she tells me what their doctors say. It's a team effort. We don't all agree all the time but we know so much more because of this. I have encouraged the other mom to please please please stop the sodas, the caffeine of any kind and NO artificial sweeteners. I suspect she allows it some but it's obviously less often and at least she knows I'll complain if I see them carrying such things in with them. I can tell her, no this isn't your daughter being difficult and lazy, the numbers fit what you are saying, a kid who really tanked last week and is struggling. I don't know how we'd be as successful without this close information exchange. I would say, for me, that having all this support and information exchange also helps keep me motivated. She has encouraged me to do it professionally but honestly I don't know if I would feel the same way if I had patients and not this type of situation. I include in that list this message board. Where would I get the tools I use?

So there is my hometrainer view.

Having said that I don't think I ever got an answer on my main question, is there supposed to be symmetry between the left and right hemisphere all over, say Fp1 Fp2, T3, T4, F3 F4, C3 C4, P3 P4? or only more toward the frontal and temporal areas? I mean symmetry along the 1.1 ratio? And is that also true front to back Fz Pz or instead Fz Oz? Come on , Pete, ... you must know the answer. :-)

And as for coherence training, blek! I guess it will get better? Telling the to just make it show the right amount of coherence stinks. I am still using adjustments on one sit and not another to help jar loose those 90+ marks of coherence across the front in every frequency but the coherence numbers themselves haven't budged, even as the symmetry has.

-Nita

-- Van Deusenpvdtlcgmail (DOT) comhttp://www.brain- trainer.com305/433-3160The Learning Curve, Inc.

[Guest guest]

What ever happened to the the updated suite that was due to be shipped to those of us who bought from Pete a while back. Last I heard it was going to be sent in september.

Bruce

RE: Re: Basic symmetry site questions

I forgot to mention that this is also the case with coherence, of course! See attachement.

Francois Dupont

Clinical, health, and rehabilitation psychology

Therapy, assessment, and consultation

Private practice fdupont-phdsympatico (DOT) ca

Universite/y d’/of Ottawa; Service de sante / Health Services

100-100 Marie-Curie, Ottawa, Ontario, K1N 6N5 Canada

Tel. : poste/ext. 500; Fax :

De : braintrainer [mailto:braintrainer ] De la part de Francois Dupont, Ph.D., C.Psych.Envoyé : 7 octobre 2008 17:55À : braintrainer Objet : RE: Re: Basic symmetry site questions

This issue of muscular tension is one of the reasons I created a new set of training screens (Integrated Neurofeedback) from scratch. See attachment.

Every screen has 2 bargraphs to verify eye movement and muscular tension in general (0.5-3 Hz and 52-58 Hz). They will stop feedback from the main bargraph (w-squash, squish, direct reward, complex ratios, etc.) as soon as they reach a certain level. If someone does not want to use them, you simply raise the threshold very high. But you are still able to see the raise of these low and high artifacts.

There was a lecture from the creator of the Loreta technique at ISNR meeting. One very important thing he mentioned was that coherence between 2 sites can be affected, indeed, by anything in the brain that will affect the 2 sites in a similar way at the same time! It seems so simple said this way.

The 2 sites could be bouncing together because a third site (an external cause, etc.) is kicking them the same way. And maybe not because they are doing their things together. He suggested reviewing our understanding of coherence and that we should be careful with this concept.

Francois Dupont

http://www3.sympatico.ca/fdupont-phd

Clinical, health, and rehabilitation psychology

Therapy, assessment, and consultation

Private practice fdupont-phdsympatico (DOT) ca

Universite/y d’/of Ottawa; Service de sante / Health Services

100-100 Marie-Curie, Ottawa, Ontario, K1N 6N5 Canada

Tel. : poste/ext. 500; Fax :

De : braintrainer [mailto:braintrainer ] De la part de Anita FainEnvoyé : 7 octobre 2008 00:38À : braintrainer Objet : Re: Re: Basic symmetry site questions

Pete,

Excellent reference. It is very helpful to know the higher Alpha is the stronger culprit. I suspected what you are saying, it matters all over.

I am having some electrical interference issues now and again. I will watch closely for reasons other than the brain. At first I did kind of ignore it as my instinct said "how can it be THAT high?", but each and every time I've checked it is in the 90's at every frequencey. I sometimes check mid training, sometimes during a quick assessment along the frontal sites. So, the muscle tension can throw the coherence across the entire head? He definitely has muscle tension. If I am using the same set up and location, in the room, for each person I train will it affect everyone's coherence the same way, or is it person specific?

-Nita

I agree with so much of what I read along this thread. Who knew I was opening such a can of worms. Tony is quite right. It's not that I have any exact answers but instead have a tool box with new tools being added all the time. I try what makes sense to me and keep what works for me.

Pete, I will say something that has occured to me over time. Because I do not do this professionally I have much stronger focus on each of the people I train. I have a spiral for each and I take notes. I know the parents personally I speak with them every week, of course one of them is me. I tell then which training sessions I was fantastic results and which I didn't. We compare notes on what was different. We work together. I make suggestions, she tells me what their doctors say. It's a team effort. We don't all agree all the time but we know so much more because of this. I have encouraged the other mom to please please please stop the sodas, the caffeine of any kind and NO artificial sweeteners. I suspect she allows it some but it's obviously less often and at least she knows I'll complain if I see them carrying such things in with them. I can tell her, no this isn't your daughter being difficult and lazy, the numbers fit what you are saying, a kid who really tanked last week and is struggling. I don't know how we'd be as successful without this close information exchange. I would say, for me, that having all this support and information exchange also helps keep me motivated. She has encouraged me to do it professionally but honestly I don't know if I would feel the same way if I had patients and not this type of situation. I include in that list this message board. Where would I get the tools I use?

So there is my hometrainer view.

Having said that I don't think I ever got an answer on my main question, is there supposed to be symmetry between the left and right hemisphere all over, say Fp1 Fp2, T3, T4, F3 F4, C3 C4, P3 P4? or only more toward the frontal and temporal areas? I mean symmetry along the 1.1 ratio? And is that also true front to back Fz Pz or instead Fz Oz? Come on , Pete, ... you must know the answer. :-)

And as for coherence training, blek! I guess it will get better? Telling the to just make it show the right amount of coherence stinks. I am still using adjustments on one sit and not another to help jar loose those 90+ marks of coherence across the front in every frequency but the coherence numbers themselves haven't budged, even as the symmetry has.

-Nita

-- Van Deusenpvdtlcgmail (DOT) comhttp://www.brain- trainer.com305/433-3160The Learning Curve, Inc.

[Guest guest]

What ever happened to the the updated suite that was due to be shipped to those of us who bought from Pete a while back. Last I heard it was going to be sent in september.

Bruce

RE: Re: Basic symmetry site questions

I forgot to mention that this is also the case with coherence, of course! See attachement.

Francois Dupont

Clinical, health, and rehabilitation psychology

Therapy, assessment, and consultation

Private practice fdupont-phdsympatico (DOT) ca

Universite/y d’/of Ottawa; Service de sante / Health Services

100-100 Marie-Curie, Ottawa, Ontario, K1N 6N5 Canada

Tel. : poste/ext. 500; Fax :

De : braintrainer [mailto:braintrainer ] De la part de Francois Dupont, Ph.D., C.Psych.Envoyé : 7 octobre 2008 17:55À : braintrainer Objet : RE: Re: Basic symmetry site questions

This issue of muscular tension is one of the reasons I created a new set of training screens (Integrated Neurofeedback) from scratch. See attachment.

Every screen has 2 bargraphs to verify eye movement and muscular tension in general (0.5-3 Hz and 52-58 Hz). They will stop feedback from the main bargraph (w-squash, squish, direct reward, complex ratios, etc.) as soon as they reach a certain level. If someone does not want to use them, you simply raise the threshold very high. But you are still able to see the raise of these low and high artifacts.

There was a lecture from the creator of the Loreta technique at ISNR meeting. One very important thing he mentioned was that coherence between 2 sites can be affected, indeed, by anything in the brain that will affect the 2 sites in a similar way at the same time! It seems so simple said this way.

The 2 sites could be bouncing together because a third site (an external cause, etc.) is kicking them the same way. And maybe not because they are doing their things together. He suggested reviewing our understanding of coherence and that we should be careful with this concept.

Francois Dupont

http://www3.sympatico.ca/fdupont-phd

Clinical, health, and rehabilitation psychology

Therapy, assessment, and consultation

Private practice fdupont-phdsympatico (DOT) ca

Universite/y d’/of Ottawa; Service de sante / Health Services

100-100 Marie-Curie, Ottawa, Ontario, K1N 6N5 Canada

Tel. : poste/ext. 500; Fax :

De : braintrainer [mailto:braintrainer ] De la part de Anita FainEnvoyé : 7 octobre 2008 00:38À : braintrainer Objet : Re: Re: Basic symmetry site questions

Pete,

Excellent reference. It is very helpful to know the higher Alpha is the stronger culprit. I suspected what you are saying, it matters all over.

I am having some electrical interference issues now and again. I will watch closely for reasons other than the brain. At first I did kind of ignore it as my instinct said "how can it be THAT high?", but each and every time I've checked it is in the 90's at every frequencey. I sometimes check mid training, sometimes during a quick assessment along the frontal sites. So, the muscle tension can throw the coherence across the entire head? He definitely has muscle tension. If I am using the same set up and location, in the room, for each person I train will it affect everyone's coherence the same way, or is it person specific?

-Nita

I agree with so much of what I read along this thread. Who knew I was opening such a can of worms. Tony is quite right. It's not that I have any exact answers but instead have a tool box with new tools being added all the time. I try what makes sense to me and keep what works for me.

Pete, I will say something that has occured to me over time. Because I do not do this professionally I have much stronger focus on each of the people I train. I have a spiral for each and I take notes. I know the parents personally I speak with them every week, of course one of them is me. I tell then which training sessions I was fantastic results and which I didn't. We compare notes on what was different. We work together. I make suggestions, she tells me what their doctors say. It's a team effort. We don't all agree all the time but we know so much more because of this. I have encouraged the other mom to please please please stop the sodas, the caffeine of any kind and NO artificial sweeteners. I suspect she allows it some but it's obviously less often and at least she knows I'll complain if I see them carrying such things in with them. I can tell her, no this isn't your daughter being difficult and lazy, the numbers fit what you are saying, a kid who really tanked last week and is struggling. I don't know how we'd be as successful without this close information exchange. I would say, for me, that having all this support and information exchange also helps keep me motivated. She has encouraged me to do it professionally but honestly I don't know if I would feel the same way if I had patients and not this type of situation. I include in that list this message board. Where would I get the tools I use?

So there is my hometrainer view.

Having said that I don't think I ever got an answer on my main question, is there supposed to be symmetry between the left and right hemisphere all over, say Fp1 Fp2, T3, T4, F3 F4, C3 C4, P3 P4? or only more toward the frontal and temporal areas? I mean symmetry along the 1.1 ratio? And is that also true front to back Fz Pz or instead Fz Oz? Come on , Pete, ... you must know the answer. :-)

And as for coherence training, blek! I guess it will get better? Telling the to just make it show the right amount of coherence stinks. I am still using adjustments on one sit and not another to help jar loose those 90+ marks of coherence across the front in every frequency but the coherence numbers themselves haven't budged, even as the symmetry has.

-Nita

-- Van Deusenpvdtlcgmail (DOT) comhttp://www.brain- trainer.com305/433-3160The Learning Curve, Inc.

[Guest guest]

Francois,

That will be VERY VERY helpful to have those graphs separated out so I can watch them closely. I promise to remain patient and not ask about them again as I can see you are working very hard to finish them all.

Yes, simply said. re: One very important thing he mentioned was that coherence between 2 sites can be affected, indeed, by anything in the brain that will affect the 2 sites in a similar way at the same time! It seems so simple said this way. I will not forget it. Thanks, Nita

Subject: RE: Re: Basic symmetry site questionsTo: braintrainer Date: Tuesday, October 7, 2008, 6:44 PM

I forgot to mention that this is also the case with coherence, of course! See attachement.

Francois Dupont

Clinical, health, and rehabilitation psychology

Therapy, assessment, and consultation

Private practice fdupont-phd@ sympatico. ca

Universite/y d’/of Ottawa; Service de sante / Health Services

100-100 Marie-Curie, Ottawa, Ontario, K1N 6N5 Canada

Tel. : poste/ext. 500; Fax :

De : braintrainer@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:braintraine ryahoogroups (DOT) com] De la part de Francois Dupont, Ph.D., C.Psych.Envoyé : 7 octobre 2008 17:55À : braintrainer@ yahoogroups. comObjet : RE: Re: Basic symmetry site questions

This issue of muscular tension is one of the reasons I created a new set of training screens (Integrated Neurofeedback) from scratch. See attachment.

Every screen has 2 bargraphs to verify eye movement and muscular tension in general (0.5-3 Hz and 52-58 Hz). They will stop feedback from the main bargraph (w-squash, squish, direct reward, complex ratios, etc.) as soon as they reach a certain level. If someone does not want to use them, you simply raise the threshold very high. But you are still able to see the raise of these low and high artifacts.

There was a lecture from the creator of the Loreta technique at ISNR meeting. One very important thing he mentioned was that coherence between 2 sites can be affected, indeed, by anything in the brain that will affect the 2 sites in a similar way at the same time! It seems so simple said this way.

The 2 sites could be bouncing together because a third site (an external cause, etc.) is kicking them the same way. And maybe not because they are doing their things together. He suggested reviewing our understanding of coherence and that we should be careful with this concept.

Francois Dupont

http://www3. sympatico. ca/fdupont- phd

Clinical, health, and rehabilitation psychology

Therapy, assessment, and consultation

Private practice fdupont-phd@ sympatico. ca

Universite/y d’/of Ottawa ; Service de sante / Health Services

100-100 Marie-Curie, Ottawa , Ontario , K1N 6N5 Canada

Tel. : poste/ext. 500; Fax :

[Guest guest]

Francois,

That will be VERY VERY helpful to have those graphs separated out so I can watch them closely. I promise to remain patient and not ask about them again as I can see you are working very hard to finish them all.

Yes, simply said. re: One very important thing he mentioned was that coherence between 2 sites can be affected, indeed, by anything in the brain that will affect the 2 sites in a similar way at the same time! It seems so simple said this way. I will not forget it. Thanks, Nita

Subject: RE: Re: Basic symmetry site questionsTo: braintrainer Date: Tuesday, October 7, 2008, 6:44 PM

I forgot to mention that this is also the case with coherence, of course! See attachement.

Francois Dupont

Clinical, health, and rehabilitation psychology

Therapy, assessment, and consultation

Private practice fdupont-phd@ sympatico. ca

Universite/y d’/of Ottawa; Service de sante / Health Services

100-100 Marie-Curie, Ottawa, Ontario, K1N 6N5 Canada

Tel. : poste/ext. 500; Fax :

De : braintrainer@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:braintraine ryahoogroups (DOT) com] De la part de Francois Dupont, Ph.D., C.Psych.Envoyé : 7 octobre 2008 17:55À : braintrainer@ yahoogroups. comObjet : RE: Re: Basic symmetry site questions

This issue of muscular tension is one of the reasons I created a new set of training screens (Integrated Neurofeedback) from scratch. See attachment.

Every screen has 2 bargraphs to verify eye movement and muscular tension in general (0.5-3 Hz and 52-58 Hz). They will stop feedback from the main bargraph (w-squash, squish, direct reward, complex ratios, etc.) as soon as they reach a certain level. If someone does not want to use them, you simply raise the threshold very high. But you are still able to see the raise of these low and high artifacts.

There was a lecture from the creator of the Loreta technique at ISNR meeting. One very important thing he mentioned was that coherence between 2 sites can be affected, indeed, by anything in the brain that will affect the 2 sites in a similar way at the same time! It seems so simple said this way.

The 2 sites could be bouncing together because a third site (an external cause, etc.) is kicking them the same way. And maybe not because they are doing their things together. He suggested reviewing our understanding of coherence and that we should be careful with this concept.

Francois Dupont

http://www3. sympatico. ca/fdupont- phd

Clinical, health, and rehabilitation psychology

Therapy, assessment, and consultation

Private practice fdupont-phd@ sympatico. ca

Universite/y d’/of Ottawa ; Service de sante / Health Services

100-100 Marie-Curie, Ottawa , Ontario , K1N 6N5 Canada

Tel. : poste/ext. 500; Fax :