RE: Re: Basic symmetry site questions

[Guest guest]

This is a very interesting thread, and one which is normally kind of taboo. After all ADHD was one of the starting points and one of the most-researched areas for training, especially with children. It is one of the major sources of clients for many trainers and one of the main draws for many parents who get into the field to work with their own children.

I personally agree. Maybe I'm just getting too old, but I find that increasingly I would a dozen times rather work with an anxious adult (or child) than with a hyper-active or just ADHD client of any age. Not because I find the ADHD folks more unattractive or that I don't like their energy levels, etc. I just don't find I get as clear results as quickly (or sometimes at all) with the ADHD. Certainly there are some who respond well to HEG. Others calm right down with SMR training that tracks to find their " right " frequency for SMR. But there is a significant population of these people who come bouncing in session after session, do whatever training you give them to do (though often with complaints of boredom, difficulty staying in the chair, having to touch everything, mess with the computer, etc.), seem to calm down (even for a time) during the session, then bounce right back up and require a team of sheepdogs to get them out of the office without careening into everything they should not touch.

So I ask the group, which has many trainers who are working a lot more with these clients than I have been recently: What the heck are you doing with them that seems to WORK?! Does NF only work when, as Pacman suggests, we require a rather global change in the system, parents changing what they do, changing eating habits, sleep hygiene, etc.? Or have you found indicators for separating clients who respond to one or more of the various interventions?

Thanks,Pete

Hi Mark, I agree with you, most anxiety and depressed people gain improvement much faster than kids with multiple disorders such as ADHD. Behavoural problems in children are not easy to treat, I find they require considerable dietary / nutritional support, family dynamics need changes then nfb can then do its work.

pacman

-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.com305/433-3160The Learning Curve, Inc.

[Guest guest]

This is a very interesting thread, and one which is normally kind of taboo. After all ADHD was one of the starting points and one of the most-researched areas for training, especially with children. It is one of the major sources of clients for many trainers and one of the main draws for many parents who get into the field to work with their own children.

I personally agree. Maybe I'm just getting too old, but I find that increasingly I would a dozen times rather work with an anxious adult (or child) than with a hyper-active or just ADHD client of any age. Not because I find the ADHD folks more unattractive or that I don't like their energy levels, etc. I just don't find I get as clear results as quickly (or sometimes at all) with the ADHD. Certainly there are some who respond well to HEG. Others calm right down with SMR training that tracks to find their " right " frequency for SMR. But there is a significant population of these people who come bouncing in session after session, do whatever training you give them to do (though often with complaints of boredom, difficulty staying in the chair, having to touch everything, mess with the computer, etc.), seem to calm down (even for a time) during the session, then bounce right back up and require a team of sheepdogs to get them out of the office without careening into everything they should not touch.

So I ask the group, which has many trainers who are working a lot more with these clients than I have been recently: What the heck are you doing with them that seems to WORK?! Does NF only work when, as Pacman suggests, we require a rather global change in the system, parents changing what they do, changing eating habits, sleep hygiene, etc.? Or have you found indicators for separating clients who respond to one or more of the various interventions?

Thanks,Pete

Hi Mark, I agree with you, most anxiety and depressed people gain improvement much faster than kids with multiple disorders such as ADHD. Behavoural problems in children are not easy to treat, I find they require considerable dietary / nutritional support, family dynamics need changes then nfb can then do its work.

pacman

-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.com305/433-3160The Learning Curve, Inc.

[Guest guest]

Well

Pete I guess you are like the grandfather. Its not what I do that works, it’s

the tools that you have given me through your training courses, design packages

etc. There are some others in this group that have helped me on my way as well.

(Rah, Pac, ) Something works Pete. I am training two kids at the moment

and I keep thinking who am I to be playing with their brain. But the parents,

school teachers etc won’t let me quit. I am not a professional and there

has been some discussion about that on here as well. But without me these

people have nothing. The first girl that came to me was headed for medication. She

is still medication free and becoming more like a normal child every week. The other

boy wanted to get his homework out during the school holidays? These are

not ADHD they are delayed developmental children. Not sure if that makes a

difference. A nice anxious adult maybe nice to treat I guess. So please

remember Pete you are treating all these kids through those of us that follow

your lead. The affects on these kids lives and their families is enormous.

Cheers Tony

Re: Re:

Basic symmetry site questions

This

is a very interesting thread, and one which is normally kind of taboo.

After all ADHD was one of the starting points and one of the most-researched

areas for training, especially with children. It is one of the major

sources of clients for many trainers and one of the main draws for many parents

who get into the field to work with their own children.

I personally agree. Maybe I'm just getting too old, but I find that

increasingly I would a dozen times rather work with an anxious adult (or child)

than with a hyper-active or just ADHD client of any age. Not because I

find the ADHD folks more unattractive or that I don't like their energy levels,

etc. I just don't find I get as clear results as quickly (or sometimes at

all) with the ADHD. Certainly there are some who respond well to

HEG. Others calm right down with SMR training that tracks to find their

" right " frequency for SMR. But there is a significant

population of these people who come bouncing in session after session, do

whatever training you give them to do (though often with complaints of boredom,

difficulty staying in the chair, having to touch everything, mess with the

computer, etc.), seem to calm down (even for a time) during the session, then

bounce right back up and require a team of sheepdogs to get them out of the

office without careening into everything they should not touch.

So I ask the group, which has many trainers who are working a lot more with

these clients than I have been recently:

What the heck are you doing with them that seems to WORK?!

Does NF only work when, as Pacman suggests, we require a rather global change

in the system, parents changing what they do, changing eating habits, sleep

hygiene, etc.? Or have you found indicators for separating clients who respond

to one or more of the various interventions?

Thanks,

Pete

On Sun, Oct 5, 2008 at

5:24 AM, pac pac <pac_aussie.au>

wrote:

Hi Mark, I agree with you, most anxiety and depressed

people gain improvement much faster than kids with multiple disorders such as

ADHD. Behavoural problems in children are not easy to treat, I find they

require considerable dietary / nutritional support, family dynamics need

changes then nfb can then do its work.

pacman

--

Van Deusen

pvdtlcgmail

http://www.brain-trainer.com

305/433-3160

The Learning Curve, Inc.

[Guest guest]

Hi am

not sure if you have heard of Wise. She carried on from Maxwell Cade. She

sells the mind mirror and trains executives that suffer from stress. She has a

number of meditations and techniques that promote a flexible mind better able

to cope with stress.

Cheers Tony

Re: Basic

symmetry site questions

I am not sure if this helps but I usually look at

the persons diet that comes in with ADHD/ADD and many times that is half the

battle. There are chemicals found in many fast foods and prepared foods

(boxed foods) that contain something called excitotoxins. These chemicals

kind of create an addiction to the neurons whereas the neurons want more and

more of that chemical so then the person craves that particular food and the

vicious cycle begins. I believe there is a book on excitotoxins I had to use

it in college and there is a movie called " Super Size Me " that you

will notice about a week into eating fast food he starts to crave it. I think

Duncan also posted once a movie you can see on-line if you Google a

videa called " Sweet Misery " it talks abot these excitotoxins.

I usually review their foods and many times introduce some supplements like

choline or calcium/magnesium. Sometimes I will talk about homeopathic

remedies too like Tarantula Hispanica which is wonderful for in a

constitutional dosage for this type of issue. I also find that there are

less sessions needed many times and that if you do too many it can bounce

back especially in younger children. Also I have found that if you do a

little coherence down training at the end that seems to hold it better too as

opposed to kids that dont' get th ecoherence down. Don't have a

clue why but then they come back a few years later (during puberty) and

need about three or four sessions again and then thye seem fine after that.

Go figure, huh!! As long as I follow these I have a pretty good success

rate.

I have a hard time with the stress/anxiety in adults

that work VERY stressful jobs. I have a few that come back once a month to

get hooked up because unless the stressor in their life goes away they

will seem to drift back a little. Never all the way just a little so

that they can notice the difference. Is there a solution (other than

change their job) for this one? (BTW-I have also tried supplements and

meditation and Pal on these people too.)

[Guest guest]

Hi Liz,

I got into EEG and other biofeedback procedures by going to the Maxwell Cade's workshops in London (UK) many years ago.

He, together with Geoff Blundell, produced and EEG called the Mind Mirror. It was a two channel system and was able to

show all the EEGs waves on the right and left side of the brain ( http://www.mindmirroreeg.com/w/equipment/mm1and2.htm) ,

very much similar to what one can see on the Dupont's software. I still use his GSR system for doing a type of therapy called

"Sequential Analysis". This is based on Jung's work and it still works today with great results.

I hope this helps,

Bye for now,

From: MargoshesSent: Sun 10/05/2008 21:24To: braintrainer Subject: Re: Re: Basic symmetry site questions

Hi Tony,I just found Wise's website. Nowhere does she say what kind of equipment she uses and what the Mind Mirror is. Can you say something about this? EEG seems to be involved, but my impression (just an impression, since she doesn't really say explicitly one way or the other) is that you learn what your patterns are and then go home and meditate? or is it basically neurofeedback, so that you need to buy an EEG machine (as "we" do?) and go home with that?What's different about what she's doing from what most of us are doing, other than that she was doing it pretty early in the game? (was she actually using EEG twenty years ago?)I'm asking because I'm sort of interested in the idea of limited use of EEG and then you go home and do something that doesn't require use of EEG (on clients' part).Thanks ---Liz

Hi am not sure if you have heard of Wise. She carried on from Maxwell Cade. She sells the mind mirror and trains executives that suffer from stress. She has a number of meditations and techniques that promote a flexible mind better able to cope with stress.

Cheers Tony

-----Original Message-----From: braintrainer [mailto:braintrainer ] On Behalf Of Sharrie HanleySent: Monday, 6 October 2008 1:07 a.m.To: braintrainer Subject: Re: Basic symmetry site questions

I am not sure if this helps but I usually look at the persons diet that comes in with ADHD/ADD and many times that is half the battle. There are chemicals found in many fast foods and prepared foods (boxed foods) that contain something called excitotoxins. These chemicals kind of create an addiction to the neurons whereas the neurons want more and more of that chemical so then the person craves that particular food and the vicious cycle begins. I believe there is a book on excitotoxins I had to use it in college and there is a movie called "Super Size Me" that you will notice about a week into eating fast food he starts to crave it. I think Duncan also posted once a movie you can see on-line if you Google a videa called "Sweet Misery" it talks abot these excitotoxins. I usually review their foods and many times introduce some supplements like choline or calcium/magnesium. Sometimes I will talk about homeopathic remedies too like Tarantula Hispanica which is wonderful for in a constitutional dosage for this type of issue. I also find that there are less sessions needed many times and that if you do too many it can bounce back especially in younger children. Also I have found that if you do a little coherence down training at the end that seems to hold it better too as opposed to kids that dont' get th ecoherence down. Don't have a clue why but then they come back a few years later (during puberty) and need about three or four sessions again and then thye seem fine after that. Go figure, huh!! As long as I follow these I have a pretty good success rate.

I have a hard time with the stress/anxiety in adults that work VERY stressful jobs. I have a few that come back once a month to get hooked up because unless the stressor in their life goes away they will seem to drift back a little. Never all the way just a little so that they can notice the difference. Is there a solution (other than change their job) for this one? (BTW-I have also tried supplements and meditation and Pal on these people too.)

[Guest guest]

Hi Liz,

I got into EEG and other biofeedback procedures by going to the Maxwell Cade's workshops in London (UK) many years ago.

He, together with Geoff Blundell, produced and EEG called the Mind Mirror. It was a two channel system and was able to

show all the EEGs waves on the right and left side of the brain ( http://www.mindmirroreeg.com/w/equipment/mm1and2.htm) ,

very much similar to what one can see on the Dupont's software. I still use his GSR system for doing a type of therapy called

"Sequential Analysis". This is based on Jung's work and it still works today with great results.

I hope this helps,

Bye for now,

From: MargoshesSent: Sun 10/05/2008 21:24To: braintrainer Subject: Re: Re: Basic symmetry site questions

Hi Tony,I just found Wise's website. Nowhere does she say what kind of equipment she uses and what the Mind Mirror is. Can you say something about this? EEG seems to be involved, but my impression (just an impression, since she doesn't really say explicitly one way or the other) is that you learn what your patterns are and then go home and meditate? or is it basically neurofeedback, so that you need to buy an EEG machine (as "we" do?) and go home with that?What's different about what she's doing from what most of us are doing, other than that she was doing it pretty early in the game? (was she actually using EEG twenty years ago?)I'm asking because I'm sort of interested in the idea of limited use of EEG and then you go home and do something that doesn't require use of EEG (on clients' part).Thanks ---Liz

Hi am not sure if you have heard of Wise. She carried on from Maxwell Cade. She sells the mind mirror and trains executives that suffer from stress. She has a number of meditations and techniques that promote a flexible mind better able to cope with stress.

Cheers Tony

-----Original Message-----From: braintrainer [mailto:braintrainer ] On Behalf Of Sharrie HanleySent: Monday, 6 October 2008 1:07 a.m.To: braintrainer Subject: Re: Basic symmetry site questions

I am not sure if this helps but I usually look at the persons diet that comes in with ADHD/ADD and many times that is half the battle. There are chemicals found in many fast foods and prepared foods (boxed foods) that contain something called excitotoxins. These chemicals kind of create an addiction to the neurons whereas the neurons want more and more of that chemical so then the person craves that particular food and the vicious cycle begins. I believe there is a book on excitotoxins I had to use it in college and there is a movie called "Super Size Me" that you will notice about a week into eating fast food he starts to crave it. I think Duncan also posted once a movie you can see on-line if you Google a videa called "Sweet Misery" it talks abot these excitotoxins. I usually review their foods and many times introduce some supplements like choline or calcium/magnesium. Sometimes I will talk about homeopathic remedies too like Tarantula Hispanica which is wonderful for in a constitutional dosage for this type of issue. I also find that there are less sessions needed many times and that if you do too many it can bounce back especially in younger children. Also I have found that if you do a little coherence down training at the end that seems to hold it better too as opposed to kids that dont' get th ecoherence down. Don't have a clue why but then they come back a few years later (during puberty) and need about three or four sessions again and then thye seem fine after that. Go figure, huh!! As long as I follow these I have a pretty good success rate.

I have a hard time with the stress/anxiety in adults that work VERY stressful jobs. I have a few that come back once a month to get hooked up because unless the stressor in their life goes away they will seem to drift back a little. Never all the way just a little so that they can notice the difference. Is there a solution (other than change their job) for this one? (BTW-I have also tried supplements and meditation and Pal on these people too.)

[Guest guest]

Hi Liz,

I got into EEG and other biofeedback procedures by going to the Maxwell Cade's workshops in London (UK) many years ago.

He, together with Geoff Blundell, produced and EEG called the Mind Mirror. It was a two channel system and was able to

show all the EEGs waves on the right and left side of the brain ( http://www.mindmirroreeg.com/w/equipment/mm1and2.htm) ,

very much similar to what one can see on the Dupont's software. I still use his GSR system for doing a type of therapy called

"Sequential Analysis". This is based on Jung's work and it still works today with great results.

I hope this helps,

Bye for now,

From: MargoshesSent: Sun 10/05/2008 21:24To: braintrainer Subject: Re: Re: Basic symmetry site questions

Hi Tony,I just found Wise's website. Nowhere does she say what kind of equipment she uses and what the Mind Mirror is. Can you say something about this? EEG seems to be involved, but my impression (just an impression, since she doesn't really say explicitly one way or the other) is that you learn what your patterns are and then go home and meditate? or is it basically neurofeedback, so that you need to buy an EEG machine (as "we" do?) and go home with that?What's different about what she's doing from what most of us are doing, other than that she was doing it pretty early in the game? (was she actually using EEG twenty years ago?)I'm asking because I'm sort of interested in the idea of limited use of EEG and then you go home and do something that doesn't require use of EEG (on clients' part).Thanks ---Liz

Hi am not sure if you have heard of Wise. She carried on from Maxwell Cade. She sells the mind mirror and trains executives that suffer from stress. She has a number of meditations and techniques that promote a flexible mind better able to cope with stress.

Cheers Tony

-----Original Message-----From: braintrainer [mailto:braintrainer ] On Behalf Of Sharrie HanleySent: Monday, 6 October 2008 1:07 a.m.To: braintrainer Subject: Re: Basic symmetry site questions

I am not sure if this helps but I usually look at the persons diet that comes in with ADHD/ADD and many times that is half the battle. There are chemicals found in many fast foods and prepared foods (boxed foods) that contain something called excitotoxins. These chemicals kind of create an addiction to the neurons whereas the neurons want more and more of that chemical so then the person craves that particular food and the vicious cycle begins. I believe there is a book on excitotoxins I had to use it in college and there is a movie called "Super Size Me" that you will notice about a week into eating fast food he starts to crave it. I think Duncan also posted once a movie you can see on-line if you Google a videa called "Sweet Misery" it talks abot these excitotoxins. I usually review their foods and many times introduce some supplements like choline or calcium/magnesium. Sometimes I will talk about homeopathic remedies too like Tarantula Hispanica which is wonderful for in a constitutional dosage for this type of issue. I also find that there are less sessions needed many times and that if you do too many it can bounce back especially in younger children. Also I have found that if you do a little coherence down training at the end that seems to hold it better too as opposed to kids that dont' get th ecoherence down. Don't have a clue why but then they come back a few years later (during puberty) and need about three or four sessions again and then thye seem fine after that. Go figure, huh!! As long as I follow these I have a pretty good success rate.

I have a hard time with the stress/anxiety in adults that work VERY stressful jobs. I have a few that come back once a month to get hooked up because unless the stressor in their life goes away they will seem to drift back a little. Never all the way just a little so that they can notice the difference. Is there a solution (other than change their job) for this one? (BTW-I have also tried supplements and meditation and Pal on these people too.)

[Guest guest]

Thanks, Tony. I am finding this very interesting, in that it seems that it would be very useful to a number of clients to use EEG to teach them how to get into states, but then have them practice the " tasks " (i.e., meditative) without the EEG. Of course one of the benefits of neurofeedback is that you KNOW when you are achieving that state (objectively), rather than thinking you are " relaxed " when you are, EEGishly-speaking, not.

But I love this " combo platter " of mind and body. Thanks for the detailed explanation. I am going to pursue this further.Liz

To

really get the feel of what she is doing you would have to read Maxwell Cades

Book the awakened mind. Yes actually they were using eeg back in the seventies.

Maxwell wanted investigate what happened in the mind of Tibetan Monks, natural

healers etc. So he created the mind mirror. Very similar to todays devices and

producing a similar picture as you see in the TLC explanation. There was

somebody on here that reproduced a protocol imitating the mindmirror. Rather

than us changing the brain wave. uses the eeg to get the client to change

it. She will take them through a meditation and they are able to see when they

have achieved the ideal brain state and get to feel what its like. Then when

the person medtates and relaxes they know how they are supposed to feel. They

studied heaps of meditators, monks etc to see what the ideal state is. Some

people do not know what relaxation feels like. Some go through alpha into theta

and think they are meditating. Some people just can not drop into alpha and

stay there.

I think the difference is we train the

person to achieve what we feel is necessary using the eeg and feedback where as

only uses it as a guide and she then trains the person how to achieve

the state they want to be in and how to change from state to state. Also

I think you have to remember a busy person may not be able to sit still long

enough to relax. There are many ways to meditate, different strokes for

different folks ie Tai Chi is a movement meditation, rosary beads also a form

of meditation. All it is is a way to trick the mind into calming down. I use

's techniques in my yoga class now. Hope this helps.

There is a website called transparent corp

that sells a programme that helps people attain the brain state they want. Its

pretty cheap and comes on one CD.

Cheers Tony

Re: Basic

symmetry site questions

I am

not sure if this helps but I usually look at the persons diet that comes in

with ADHD/ADD and many times that is half the battle. There are chemicals

found in many fast foods and prepared foods (boxed foods) that contain

something called excitotoxins. These chemicals kind of create an addiction to

the neurons whereas the neurons want more and more of that chemical so then

the person craves that particular food and the vicious cycle begins. I

believe there is a book on excitotoxins I had to use it in college and there

is a movie called " Super Size Me " that you will notice about a week

into eating fast food he starts to crave it. I think Duncan also posted

once a movie you can see on-line if you Google a videa called " Sweet

Misery " it talks abot these excitotoxins. I usually review their foods

and many times introduce some supplements like choline or calcium/magnesium.

Sometimes I will talk about homeopathic remedies too like Tarantula Hispanica

which is wonderful for in a constitutional dosage for this type of

issue. I also find that there are less sessions needed many times and

that if you do too many it can bounce back especially in younger children.

Also I have found that if you do a little coherence down training at the end

that seems to hold it better too as opposed to kids that dont' get th

ecoherence down. Don't have a clue why but then they come back a

few years later (during puberty) and need about three or four sessions again

and then thye seem fine after that. Go figure, huh!! As long as I follow

these I have a pretty good success rate.

I have

a hard time with the stress/anxiety in adults that work VERY stressful jobs.

I have a few that come back once a month to get hooked up because unless

the stressor in their life goes away they will seem to drift back a little.

Never all the way just a little so that they can notice the

difference. Is there a solution (other than change their job) for this

one? (BTW-I have also tried supplements and meditation and Pal on these

people too.)

[Guest guest]

Thanks, Tony. I am finding this very interesting, in that it seems that it would be very useful to a number of clients to use EEG to teach them how to get into states, but then have them practice the " tasks " (i.e., meditative) without the EEG. Of course one of the benefits of neurofeedback is that you KNOW when you are achieving that state (objectively), rather than thinking you are " relaxed " when you are, EEGishly-speaking, not.

But I love this " combo platter " of mind and body. Thanks for the detailed explanation. I am going to pursue this further.Liz

To

really get the feel of what she is doing you would have to read Maxwell Cades

Book the awakened mind. Yes actually they were using eeg back in the seventies.

Maxwell wanted investigate what happened in the mind of Tibetan Monks, natural

healers etc. So he created the mind mirror. Very similar to todays devices and

producing a similar picture as you see in the TLC explanation. There was

somebody on here that reproduced a protocol imitating the mindmirror. Rather

than us changing the brain wave. uses the eeg to get the client to change

it. She will take them through a meditation and they are able to see when they

have achieved the ideal brain state and get to feel what its like. Then when

the person medtates and relaxes they know how they are supposed to feel. They

studied heaps of meditators, monks etc to see what the ideal state is. Some

people do not know what relaxation feels like. Some go through alpha into theta

and think they are meditating. Some people just can not drop into alpha and

stay there.

I think the difference is we train the

person to achieve what we feel is necessary using the eeg and feedback where as

only uses it as a guide and she then trains the person how to achieve

the state they want to be in and how to change from state to state. Also

I think you have to remember a busy person may not be able to sit still long

enough to relax. There are many ways to meditate, different strokes for

different folks ie Tai Chi is a movement meditation, rosary beads also a form

of meditation. All it is is a way to trick the mind into calming down. I use

's techniques in my yoga class now. Hope this helps.

There is a website called transparent corp

that sells a programme that helps people attain the brain state they want. Its

pretty cheap and comes on one CD.

Cheers Tony

Re: Basic

symmetry site questions

I am

not sure if this helps but I usually look at the persons diet that comes in

with ADHD/ADD and many times that is half the battle. There are chemicals

found in many fast foods and prepared foods (boxed foods) that contain

something called excitotoxins. These chemicals kind of create an addiction to

the neurons whereas the neurons want more and more of that chemical so then

the person craves that particular food and the vicious cycle begins. I

believe there is a book on excitotoxins I had to use it in college and there

is a movie called " Super Size Me " that you will notice about a week

into eating fast food he starts to crave it. I think Duncan also posted

once a movie you can see on-line if you Google a videa called " Sweet

Misery " it talks abot these excitotoxins. I usually review their foods

and many times introduce some supplements like choline or calcium/magnesium.

Sometimes I will talk about homeopathic remedies too like Tarantula Hispanica

which is wonderful for in a constitutional dosage for this type of

issue. I also find that there are less sessions needed many times and

that if you do too many it can bounce back especially in younger children.

Also I have found that if you do a little coherence down training at the end

that seems to hold it better too as opposed to kids that dont' get th

ecoherence down. Don't have a clue why but then they come back a

few years later (during puberty) and need about three or four sessions again

and then thye seem fine after that. Go figure, huh!! As long as I follow

these I have a pretty good success rate.

I have

a hard time with the stress/anxiety in adults that work VERY stressful jobs.

I have a few that come back once a month to get hooked up because unless

the stressor in their life goes away they will seem to drift back a little.

Never all the way just a little so that they can notice the

difference. Is there a solution (other than change their job) for this

one? (BTW-I have also tried supplements and meditation and Pal on these

people too.)

[Guest guest]

I agree with so much of what I read along this thread. Who knew I was opening such a can of worms. Tony is quite right. It's not that I have any exact answers but instead have a tool box with new tools being added all the time. I try what makes sense to me and keep what works for me.

Pete, I will say something that has occured to me over time. Because I do not do this professionally I have much stronger focus on each of the people I train. I have a spiral for each and I take notes. I know the parents personally I speak with them every week, of course one of them is me. I tell then which training sessions I was fantastic results and which I didn't. We compare notes on what was different. We work together. I make suggestions, she tells me what their doctors say. It's a team effort. We don't all agree all the time but we know so much more because of this. I have encouraged the other mom to please please please stop the sodas, the caffeine of any kind and NO artificial sweeteners. I suspect she allows it some but it's obviously less often and at least she knows I'll complain if I see them carrying such things in with them. I can tell her, no this isn't your

daughter being difficult and lazy, the numbers fit what you are saying, a kid who really tanked last week and is struggling. I don't know how we'd be as successful without this close information exchange. I would say, for me, that having all this support and information exchange also helps keep me motivated. She has encouraged me to do it professionally but honestly I don't know if I would feel the same way if I had patients and not this type of situation. I include in that list this message board. Where would I get the tools I use?

So there is my hometrainer view.

Having said that I don't think I ever got an answer on my main question, is there supposed to be symmetry between the left and right hemisphere all over, say Fp1 Fp2, T3, T4, F3 F4, C3 C4, P3 P4? or only more toward the frontal and temporal areas? I mean symmetry along the 1.1 ratio? And is that also true front to back Fz Pz or instead Fz Oz? Come on , Pete, ... you must know the answer. :-)

And as for coherence training, blek! I guess it will get better? Telling the to just make it show the right amount of coherence stinks. I am still using adjustments on one sit and not another to help jar loose those 90+ marks of coherence across the front in every frequency but the coherence numbers themselves haven't budged, even as the symmetry has.

-Nita

Subject: RE: Re: Basic symmetry site questionsTo: braintrainer Date: Sunday, October 5, 2008, 2:12 PM

Recent Activity

9

New MembersVisit Your Group

Meditation and

Lovingkindness

A Yahoo! Group

to share and learn.

Yahoo! Health

Memory Loss

Are you at risk

for Alzheimers?

Search Ads

Get new customers.

List your web site

in Yahoo! Search.

..

[Guest guest]

I agree with so much of what I read along this thread. Who knew I was opening such a can of worms. Tony is quite right. It's not that I have any exact answers but instead have a tool box with new tools being added all the time. I try what makes sense to me and keep what works for me.

Pete, I will say something that has occured to me over time. Because I do not do this professionally I have much stronger focus on each of the people I train. I have a spiral for each and I take notes. I know the parents personally I speak with them every week, of course one of them is me. I tell then which training sessions I was fantastic results and which I didn't. We compare notes on what was different. We work together. I make suggestions, she tells me what their doctors say. It's a team effort. We don't all agree all the time but we know so much more because of this. I have encouraged the other mom to please please please stop the sodas, the caffeine of any kind and NO artificial sweeteners. I suspect she allows it some but it's obviously less often and at least she knows I'll complain if I see them carrying such things in with them. I can tell her, no this isn't your

daughter being difficult and lazy, the numbers fit what you are saying, a kid who really tanked last week and is struggling. I don't know how we'd be as successful without this close information exchange. I would say, for me, that having all this support and information exchange also helps keep me motivated. She has encouraged me to do it professionally but honestly I don't know if I would feel the same way if I had patients and not this type of situation. I include in that list this message board. Where would I get the tools I use?

So there is my hometrainer view.

Having said that I don't think I ever got an answer on my main question, is there supposed to be symmetry between the left and right hemisphere all over, say Fp1 Fp2, T3, T4, F3 F4, C3 C4, P3 P4? or only more toward the frontal and temporal areas? I mean symmetry along the 1.1 ratio? And is that also true front to back Fz Pz or instead Fz Oz? Come on , Pete, ... you must know the answer. :-)

And as for coherence training, blek! I guess it will get better? Telling the to just make it show the right amount of coherence stinks. I am still using adjustments on one sit and not another to help jar loose those 90+ marks of coherence across the front in every frequency but the coherence numbers themselves haven't budged, even as the symmetry has.

-Nita

Subject: RE: Re: Basic symmetry site questionsTo: braintrainer Date: Sunday, October 5, 2008, 2:12 PM

Recent Activity

9

New MembersVisit Your Group

Meditation and

Lovingkindness

A Yahoo! Group

to share and learn.

Yahoo! Health

Memory Loss

Are you at risk

for Alzheimers?

Search Ads

Get new customers.

List your web site

in Yahoo! Search.

..

[Guest guest]

Nita,In son's article published in 2005 (you can download it from the Articles folder in the Files section on the braintrainer list homepage (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/braintrainer/files ), he extended his work showing the importance of alpha dominance in the right prefrontal in two ways. First, he found that an alpha imbalance anywhere in the brain seemed to be related to the more negative, risk-averse, view of the world; second, he found that the imbalance in higher alpha (10-12 Hz) seemed much more important than in lower alpha.

When you look at the Analyze page in the 6.1 version of the TLC, you'll see that all site pairs give the ratio for beta, alpha and high alpha. I usually look for sites that are below 1 on most or all of these values as being prime places to train.

If you are seeing fastwave coherences in the 90 range, especially over broad areas, remember Pete's first rule of neurofeedback, " If you see something really unusual in the EEG, first assume it's something you are doing or the machine or the client are doing before you blame it on the brain. " A high degree of muscle tension will cause high coherences, as will strong electromagnetic interference, since, just like real coherence, the signal is coming from the same place in both sites--it's just not the brain. No way for the client to change that (unless it's tension).

Pete

I agree with so much of what I read along this thread. Who knew I was opening such a can of worms. Tony is quite right. It's not that I have any exact answers but instead have a tool box with new tools being added all the time. I try what makes sense to me and keep what works for me.

Pete, I will say something that has occured to me over time. Because I do not do this professionally I have much stronger focus on each of the people I train. I have a spiral for each and I take notes. I know the parents personally I speak with them every week, of course one of them is me. I tell then which training sessions I was fantastic results and which I didn't. We compare notes on what was different. We work together. I make suggestions, she tells me what their doctors say. It's a team effort. We don't all agree all the time but we know so much more because of this. I have encouraged the other mom to please please please stop the sodas, the caffeine of any kind and NO artificial sweeteners. I suspect she allows it some but it's obviously less often and at least she knows I'll complain if I see them carrying such things in with them. I can tell her, no this isn't your

daughter being difficult and lazy, the numbers fit what you are saying, a kid who really tanked last week and is struggling. I don't know how we'd be as successful without this close information exchange. I would say, for me, that having all this support and information exchange also helps keep me motivated. She has encouraged me to do it professionally but honestly I don't know if I would feel the same way if I had patients and not this type of situation. I include in that list this message board. Where would I get the tools I use?

So there is my hometrainer view.

Having said that I don't think I ever got an answer on my main question, is there supposed to be symmetry between the left and right hemisphere all over, say Fp1 Fp2, T3, T4, F3 F4, C3 C4, P3 P4? or only more toward the frontal and temporal areas? I mean symmetry along the 1.1 ratio? And is that also true front to back Fz Pz or instead Fz Oz? Come on , Pete, ... you must know the answer. :-)

And as for coherence training, blek! I guess it will get better? Telling the to just make it show the right amount of coherence stinks. I am still using adjustments on one sit and not another to help jar loose those 90+ marks of coherence across the front in every frequency but the coherence numbers themselves haven't budged, even as the symmetry has.

-Nita

-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.com305/433-3160The Learning Curve, Inc.

[Guest guest]

Nita,In son's article published in 2005 (you can download it from the Articles folder in the Files section on the braintrainer list homepage (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/braintrainer/files ), he extended his work showing the importance of alpha dominance in the right prefrontal in two ways. First, he found that an alpha imbalance anywhere in the brain seemed to be related to the more negative, risk-averse, view of the world; second, he found that the imbalance in higher alpha (10-12 Hz) seemed much more important than in lower alpha.

When you look at the Analyze page in the 6.1 version of the TLC, you'll see that all site pairs give the ratio for beta, alpha and high alpha. I usually look for sites that are below 1 on most or all of these values as being prime places to train.

If you are seeing fastwave coherences in the 90 range, especially over broad areas, remember Pete's first rule of neurofeedback, " If you see something really unusual in the EEG, first assume it's something you are doing or the machine or the client are doing before you blame it on the brain. " A high degree of muscle tension will cause high coherences, as will strong electromagnetic interference, since, just like real coherence, the signal is coming from the same place in both sites--it's just not the brain. No way for the client to change that (unless it's tension).

Pete

I agree with so much of what I read along this thread. Who knew I was opening such a can of worms. Tony is quite right. It's not that I have any exact answers but instead have a tool box with new tools being added all the time. I try what makes sense to me and keep what works for me.

Pete, I will say something that has occured to me over time. Because I do not do this professionally I have much stronger focus on each of the people I train. I have a spiral for each and I take notes. I know the parents personally I speak with them every week, of course one of them is me. I tell then which training sessions I was fantastic results and which I didn't. We compare notes on what was different. We work together. I make suggestions, she tells me what their doctors say. It's a team effort. We don't all agree all the time but we know so much more because of this. I have encouraged the other mom to please please please stop the sodas, the caffeine of any kind and NO artificial sweeteners. I suspect she allows it some but it's obviously less often and at least she knows I'll complain if I see them carrying such things in with them. I can tell her, no this isn't your

daughter being difficult and lazy, the numbers fit what you are saying, a kid who really tanked last week and is struggling. I don't know how we'd be as successful without this close information exchange. I would say, for me, that having all this support and information exchange also helps keep me motivated. She has encouraged me to do it professionally but honestly I don't know if I would feel the same way if I had patients and not this type of situation. I include in that list this message board. Where would I get the tools I use?

So there is my hometrainer view.

Having said that I don't think I ever got an answer on my main question, is there supposed to be symmetry between the left and right hemisphere all over, say Fp1 Fp2, T3, T4, F3 F4, C3 C4, P3 P4? or only more toward the frontal and temporal areas? I mean symmetry along the 1.1 ratio? And is that also true front to back Fz Pz or instead Fz Oz? Come on , Pete, ... you must know the answer. :-)

And as for coherence training, blek! I guess it will get better? Telling the to just make it show the right amount of coherence stinks. I am still using adjustments on one sit and not another to help jar loose those 90+ marks of coherence across the front in every frequency but the coherence numbers themselves haven't budged, even as the symmetry has.

-Nita

-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.com305/433-3160The Learning Curve, Inc.

[Guest guest]

Hi Anita~

I have found doing frontal window squashes (at Fp1 A1g F3 A1 or Fp2 A2gF4A2) and Othmer wide band squashes (at Fp2 -T4 and Fp1-T3 and F3-T3) before doing frontal coherence training or frontal symmetry training (in the same sitting) to help with things. I have also found doing 2 hour trainings (2 x or more a week) to be so much more beneficial than coming in for 1 or 2 sessions once or twice a week. Each session plays off the other and by the time you have done 5 sessions in a row the results are phenomenal.

One example, I am training a home training friend right now (62) who has had his own equipment for 5 years but cant get motivated to do himself. He is very motivated to come 2X a week and sit for 2 - 21/2 hours and he says "there is an unwinding going on and I suddenly feel alive, I can only remember feeling this way before I was 7", (that was 55 years ago) . That was before he was given nasal radiation treatment for sinus issues that caused lesions on the frontal lobes (and unfortunately has very high risk for brain and thyroid cancer). We both feel without the squashes and the time intensity he would never have come this far in under a month. When the bumps in life come, (and they come often for this gentleman) he is amazed at how he has been handling them and gliding right over them, a month ago they would have knocked him down.

So, I do like to do about 2 hours at a time and find the results are stronger and I often prime the area I am working with with window squashes or squashes first. I understand not everyone is motivated to stay that long but for those who do are grateful for the extra work.

Hope this helps some,

~

RE: Re: Basic symmetry site questionsTo: braintrainer Date: Sunday, October 5, 2008, 2:12 PM

Recent Activity

9

New MembersVisit Your Group

Meditation and

Lovingkindness

A Yahoo! Group

to share and learn.

Yahoo! Health

Memory Loss

Are you at risk

for Alzheimers?

Search Ads

Get new customers.

List your web site

in Yahoo! Search.

..

[Guest guest]

Hi Pete,I can't stop laughing with some of your comments, it's so true.I've been working with Filtering & /or Processing issues kids for the last 6 years and found out that almost 99.9% (0.01% for the benefit of doubt) respond very well to a mid-long T training, meaning trying to calm down the Temporals.My personal & humble interpretation of this type of kids, which I used to be one of them, is that they are a clear consequence of neglect, abuse and dysfunction family patterns. All you may see in their hyperactivity you may traduce it as pure anxiety, so is better to treat them as an anxious kid.I normally combine T3/A1 & /or T4/A2, depends on the TLC assessment result. Then, if necessary, T3-T4 to balance the difference between the hemispheres, and you may do it by

using design as 1C twoinhibitonereward or a squash/squish.Hope this comment may help someone out there.Best Regards, L Re: Re: Basic symmetry site questions

This is a very interesting thread, and one which is normally kind of taboo. After all ADHD was one of the starting points and one of the most-researched areas for training, especially with children. It is one of the major sources of clients for many trainers and one of the main draws for many parents who get into the field to work with their own children.

I personally agree. Maybe I'm just getting too old, but I find that increasingly I would a dozen times rather work with an anxious adult (or child) than with a hyper-active or just ADHD client of any age. Not because I find the ADHD folks more unattractive or that I don't like their energy levels, etc. I just don't find I get as clear results as quickly (or sometimes at all) with the ADHD. Certainly there are some who respond well to HEG. Others calm right down with SMR training that tracks to find their "right" frequency for SMR. But there is a significant population of these people who come bouncing in session after session, do whatever training you give them to do (though often with complaints of boredom, difficulty staying in the chair, having to touch everything, mess with the computer, etc.), seem to calm down (even for a time) during the session, then bounce right back up and require a team of sheepdogs to

get them out of the office without careening into everything they should not touch.

So I ask the group, which has many trainers who are working a lot more with these clients than I have been recently: What the heck are you doing with them that seems to WORK?! Does NF only work when, as Pacman suggests, we require a rather global change in the system, parents changing what they do, changing eating habits, sleep hygiene, etc.? Or have you found indicators for separating clients who respond to one or more of the various interventions?

Thanks,PeteOn Sun, Oct 5, 2008 at 5:24 AM, pac pac <pac_aussieyahoo (DOT) com.au> wrote:

Hi Mark, I agree with you, most anxiety and depressed people gain improvement much faster than kids with multiple disorders such as ADHD. Behavoural problems in children are not easy to treat, I find they require considerable dietary / nutritional support, family dynamics need changes then nfb can then do its work.

pacman

-- Van Deusenpvdtlcgmail (DOT) comhttp://www.brain- trainer.com305/433-3160The Learning Curve, Inc.

[Guest guest]

Hi Pete,I can't stop laughing with some of your comments, it's so true.I've been working with Filtering & /or Processing issues kids for the last 6 years and found out that almost 99.9% (0.01% for the benefit of doubt) respond very well to a mid-long T training, meaning trying to calm down the Temporals.My personal & humble interpretation of this type of kids, which I used to be one of them, is that they are a clear consequence of neglect, abuse and dysfunction family patterns. All you may see in their hyperactivity you may traduce it as pure anxiety, so is better to treat them as an anxious kid.I normally combine T3/A1 & /or T4/A2, depends on the TLC assessment result. Then, if necessary, T3-T4 to balance the difference between the hemispheres, and you may do it by

using design as 1C twoinhibitonereward or a squash/squish.Hope this comment may help someone out there.Best Regards, L Re: Re: Basic symmetry site questions

This is a very interesting thread, and one which is normally kind of taboo. After all ADHD was one of the starting points and one of the most-researched areas for training, especially with children. It is one of the major sources of clients for many trainers and one of the main draws for many parents who get into the field to work with their own children.

I personally agree. Maybe I'm just getting too old, but I find that increasingly I would a dozen times rather work with an anxious adult (or child) than with a hyper-active or just ADHD client of any age. Not because I find the ADHD folks more unattractive or that I don't like their energy levels, etc. I just don't find I get as clear results as quickly (or sometimes at all) with the ADHD. Certainly there are some who respond well to HEG. Others calm right down with SMR training that tracks to find their "right" frequency for SMR. But there is a significant population of these people who come bouncing in session after session, do whatever training you give them to do (though often with complaints of boredom, difficulty staying in the chair, having to touch everything, mess with the computer, etc.), seem to calm down (even for a time) during the session, then bounce right back up and require a team of sheepdogs to

get them out of the office without careening into everything they should not touch.

So I ask the group, which has many trainers who are working a lot more with these clients than I have been recently: What the heck are you doing with them that seems to WORK?! Does NF only work when, as Pacman suggests, we require a rather global change in the system, parents changing what they do, changing eating habits, sleep hygiene, etc.? Or have you found indicators for separating clients who respond to one or more of the various interventions?

Thanks,PeteOn Sun, Oct 5, 2008 at 5:24 AM, pac pac <pac_aussieyahoo (DOT) com.au> wrote:

Hi Mark, I agree with you, most anxiety and depressed people gain improvement much faster than kids with multiple disorders such as ADHD. Behavoural problems in children are not easy to treat, I find they require considerable dietary / nutritional support, family dynamics need changes then nfb can then do its work.

pacman

-- Van Deusenpvdtlcgmail (DOT) comhttp://www.brain- trainer.com305/433-3160The Learning Curve, Inc.

[Guest guest]

Pete,

I would have to agree with you on that...one thing I have found to work with these types of people

is the old protocol the Othmers use. T3-Fp1 and T4-Fp2 I use a wide inhibit and the reward is normally

very low..around 5-8 or 6-9, I stay with the protocol for a long time maybe 20 sessions. Although I do tend

to get some of these clients that are on high doses of meds, and makes it hard to train threw all of it.

Kim

Re: Re: Basic symmetry site questions

This is a very interesting thread, and one which is normally kind of taboo. After all ADHD was one of the starting points and one of the most-researched areas for training, especially with children. It is one of the major sources of clients for many trainers and one of the main draws for many parents who get into the field to work with their own children.I personally agree. Maybe I'm just getting too old, but I find that increasingly I would a dozen times rather work with an anxious adult (or child) than with a hyper-active or just ADHD client of any age. Not because I find the ADHD folks more unattractive or that I don't like their energy levels, etc. I just don't find I get as clear results as quickly (or sometimes at all) with the ADHD. Certainly there are some who respond well to HEG. Others calm right down with SMR training that tracks to find their "right" frequency for SMR. But there is a significant population of these people who come bouncing in session after session, do whatever training you give them to do (though often with complaints of boredom, difficulty staying in the chair, having to touch everything, mess with the computer, etc.), seem to calm down (even for a time) during the session, then bounce right back up and require a team of sheepdogs to g et them out of the office without careening into everything they should not touch.So I ask the group, which has many trainers who are working a lot more with these clients than I have been recently: What the heck are you doing with them that seems to WORK?! Does NF only work when, as Pacman suggests, we require a rather global change in the system, parents changing what they do, changing eating habits, sleep hygiene, etc.? Or have you found indicators for separating clients who respond to one or more of the various interventions? Thanks,Pete

On Sun, Oct 5, 2008 at 5:24 AM, pac pac <pac_aussie.au> wrote:

Hi Mark, I agree with you, most anxiety and depressed people gain improvement much faster than kids with multiple disorders such as ADHD. Behavoural problems in children are not easy to treat, I find they require considerable dietary / nutritional support, family dynamics need changes then nfb can then do its work.pacman -- Van Deusenpvdtlcgmailhttp://www.brain-trainer.com305/433-3160The Learning Curve, Inc.

[Guest guest]

Thanks . That does sound like a very good thing to try, those wide band squashes to get things moving. I can only imagine how much this level of coherence is affecting his ability to manage life, not to mention the other issues going on.

Ok, so you honestly don't find 2 1/2 hours to be too long. You do them solid or give breaks, you know more than 5 minutes and start again? I can't imagine. I could do that to myself but I guess someone would have to be really motivated as this man you speak of is. Would this work for someone with the ADHD issues as well? They seem to poop out after 25 minutes. I've done some serious number crunching and out of the 7- 3 minute sessions I can consistently throw out the first when it comes to getting any real changes and throw out the last as the changes start to regress. I do HRV breathing first and everything but it seems to take that first 3 minutes to get "into the groove" and then I can see them tire in their face and sure enough the numbers start to regress. After some encouragement instead of pushing for more, trying to train through it, I stop the trai

From: karyn.tonyxtra (DOT) co.nz <karyn.tonyxtra (DOT) co.nz>Subject: RE: Re: Basic symmetry site questionsTo: braintrainer@ yahoogroups. comDate: Sunday, October 5, 2008, 2:12 PM

Recent Activity

9

New MembersVisit Your Group

Meditation and

Lovingkindness

A Yahoo! Group

to share and learn.

Yahoo! Health

Memory Loss

Are you at risk

for Alzheimers?

Search Ads

Get new customers.

List your web site

in Yahoo! Search.

..

[Guest guest]

Thanks . That does sound like a very good thing to try, those wide band squashes to get things moving. I can only imagine how much this level of coherence is affecting his ability to manage life, not to mention the other issues going on.

Ok, so you honestly don't find 2 1/2 hours to be too long. You do them solid or give breaks, you know more than 5 minutes and start again? I can't imagine. I could do that to myself but I guess someone would have to be really motivated as this man you speak of is. Would this work for someone with the ADHD issues as well? They seem to poop out after 25 minutes. I've done some serious number crunching and out of the 7- 3 minute sessions I can consistently throw out the first when it comes to getting any real changes and throw out the last as the changes start to regress. I do HRV breathing first and everything but it seems to take that first 3 minutes to get "into the groove" and then I can see them tire in their face and sure enough the numbers start to regress. After some encouragement instead of pushing for more, trying to train through it, I stop the trai

From: karyn.tonyxtra (DOT) co.nz <karyn.tonyxtra (DOT) co.nz>Subject: RE: Re: Basic symmetry site questionsTo: braintrainer@ yahoogroups. comDate: Sunday, October 5, 2008, 2:12 PM

Recent Activity

9

New MembersVisit Your Group

Meditation and

Lovingkindness

A Yahoo! Group

to share and learn.

Yahoo! Health

Memory Loss

Are you at risk

for Alzheimers?

Search Ads

Get new customers.

List your web site

in Yahoo! Search.

..

[Guest guest]

Thanks . That does sound like a very good thing to try, those wide band squashes to get things moving. I can only imagine how much this level of coherence is affecting his ability to manage life, not to mention the other issues going on.

Ok, so you honestly don't find 2 1/2 hours to be too long. You do them solid or give breaks, you know more than 5 minutes and start again? I can't imagine. I could do that to myself but I guess someone would have to be really motivated as this man you speak of is. Would this work for someone with the ADHD issues as well? They seem to poop out after 25 minutes. I've done some serious number crunching and out of the 7- 3 minute sessions I can consistently throw out the first when it comes to getting any real changes and throw out the last as the changes start to regress. I do HRV breathing first and everything but it seems to take that first 3 minutes to get "into the groove" and then I can see them tire in their face and sure enough the numbers start to regress. After some encouragement instead of pushing for more, trying to train through it, I stop the trai

From: karyn.tonyxtra (DOT) co.nz <karyn.tonyxtra (DOT) co.nz>Subject: RE: Re: Basic symmetry site questionsTo: braintrainer@ yahoogroups. comDate: Sunday, October 5, 2008, 2:12 PM

Recent Activity

9

New MembersVisit Your Group

Meditation and

Lovingkindness

A Yahoo! Group

to share and learn.

Yahoo! Health

Memory Loss

Are you at risk

for Alzheimers?

Search Ads

Get new customers.

List your web site

in Yahoo! Search.

..

[Guest guest]

Will do!

Subject: Re: Re: Basic symmetry site questionsTo: braintrainer Date: Monday, October 6, 2008, 11:36 PM

Anita~

Its definitely not for everyone but for the stubborn heads and for folks who are motivated to get places when things are not budging it can help. Anyway, try a squash first before the coherence training to see how it moves.

Good luck,

~

[Guest guest]

Will do!

Subject: Re: Re: Basic symmetry site questionsTo: braintrainer Date: Monday, October 6, 2008, 11:36 PM

Anita~

Its definitely not for everyone but for the stubborn heads and for folks who are motivated to get places when things are not budging it can help. Anyway, try a squash first before the coherence training to see how it moves.

Good luck,

~

[Guest guest]

Will do!

Subject: Re: Re: Basic symmetry site questionsTo: braintrainer Date: Monday, October 6, 2008, 11:36 PM

Anita~

Its definitely not for everyone but for the stubborn heads and for folks who are motivated to get places when things are not budging it can help. Anyway, try a squash first before the coherence training to see how it moves.

Good luck,

~

[Guest guest]

Nita,I've only seen one or two people with global coherences even in the 80's. In both cases there was severe tension (scalp tension is harder to see). What causes most signals to be coherent is that they are coming from the same source. As we discuss in Level 2, the source for slower EEG signals (alpha and below) is subcortical generators in the brain. But any source of electrical signals--and muscle tension is certainly one of those--will result in highly coherent signals. All the signals you are reading are coming from the same source.

Try doing some progressive relaxation or autogenic training when the client sits down and before you put on the electrodes. See if, as he/she begins to relax more deeply, you see reductions in coherence and amplitude and fastwave activity.

Presumably, if you have significant electromagnetic field activity, it will show up in all clients all the time, unless it is related to a particular piece of equipment (roof A/C unit, etc.) going on and off.Pete

Pete,

Excellent reference. It is very helpful to know the higher Alpha is the stronger culprit. I suspected what you are saying, it matters all over.

I am having some electrical interference issues now and again. I will watch closely for reasons other than the brain. At first I did kind of ignore it as my instinct said " how can it be THAT high? " , but each and every time I've checked it is in the 90's at every frequencey. I sometimes check mid training, sometimes during a quick assessment along the frontal sites. So, the muscle tension can throw the coherence across the entire head? He definitely has muscle tension. If I am using the same set up and location, in the room, for each person I train will it affect everyone's coherence the same way, or is it person specific?

-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.com305/433-3160The Learning Curve, Inc.

[Guest guest]

Nita,I've only seen one or two people with global coherences even in the 80's. In both cases there was severe tension (scalp tension is harder to see). What causes most signals to be coherent is that they are coming from the same source. As we discuss in Level 2, the source for slower EEG signals (alpha and below) is subcortical generators in the brain. But any source of electrical signals--and muscle tension is certainly one of those--will result in highly coherent signals. All the signals you are reading are coming from the same source.

Try doing some progressive relaxation or autogenic training when the client sits down and before you put on the electrodes. See if, as he/she begins to relax more deeply, you see reductions in coherence and amplitude and fastwave activity.

Presumably, if you have significant electromagnetic field activity, it will show up in all clients all the time, unless it is related to a particular piece of equipment (roof A/C unit, etc.) going on and off.Pete

Pete,

Excellent reference. It is very helpful to know the higher Alpha is the stronger culprit. I suspected what you are saying, it matters all over.

I am having some electrical interference issues now and again. I will watch closely for reasons other than the brain. At first I did kind of ignore it as my instinct said " how can it be THAT high? " , but each and every time I've checked it is in the 90's at every frequencey. I sometimes check mid training, sometimes during a quick assessment along the frontal sites. So, the muscle tension can throw the coherence across the entire head? He definitely has muscle tension. If I am using the same set up and location, in the room, for each person I train will it affect everyone's coherence the same way, or is it person specific?

-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.com305/433-3160The Learning Curve, Inc.