Re: AS and testosterone

[Guest guest]

Hello Ilah,

I do agree with you: I feel irritated as well every now and then when I read this 'being extreme masculine' theory from Cohen. I thought I might have misunderstood what he is really trying to say with that.

I don't know any other women with asperger personally, but if I look at myself I wouldn't know in which way I could be called 'masculine'. I was thinking that the masculine-theory could be saying a lot about Cohen and his prejudice towards men and women.

What I find logical is that there has been done much less study about women with asperger. I think that women with asperger much easier get diagnosed with personality disorders and not with asperger. I wouldn't be suprised if there are as many aspergers among women as men. Asperger probably doens't discriminate men or women : )

To be honest, I wouldn't know what typical 'male hobbies' could be. I know that I have tried out all kinds of things to see if I enjoy doing them and I have safed those that did so.

As a child I played with dolls as well, but mostly preferred to read.

Lida

7. Could part of the reason there are more males aspies than females be because their is more pressure on women/girls to hide their AS traits than men/boys? I am basing this completely on personal experience here (obvious double standard in my family), but I would be interesting in seeing what other aspie females thought about this.8. "Male" hobbies I enjoy: D & D, comics, anime/manga, action films, science fiction. "Female" hobbies I enjoy: knitting, crochet, baking, various crafts. For the record I played with Barbies as a child (according to Cohen's theories females aspies would shun Barbies for toy trucks).Ilah

[Guest guest]

Hello Ilah,

I do agree with you: I feel irritated as well every now and then when I read this 'being extreme masculine' theory from Cohen. I thought I might have misunderstood what he is really trying to say with that.

I don't know any other women with asperger personally, but if I look at myself I wouldn't know in which way I could be called 'masculine'. I was thinking that the masculine-theory could be saying a lot about Cohen and his prejudice towards men and women.

What I find logical is that there has been done much less study about women with asperger. I think that women with asperger much easier get diagnosed with personality disorders and not with asperger. I wouldn't be suprised if there are as many aspergers among women as men. Asperger probably doens't discriminate men or women : )

To be honest, I wouldn't know what typical 'male hobbies' could be. I know that I have tried out all kinds of things to see if I enjoy doing them and I have safed those that did so.

As a child I played with dolls as well, but mostly preferred to read.

Lida

7. Could part of the reason there are more males aspies than females be because their is more pressure on women/girls to hide their AS traits than men/boys? I am basing this completely on personal experience here (obvious double standard in my family), but I would be interesting in seeing what other aspie females thought about this.8. "Male" hobbies I enjoy: D & D, comics, anime/manga, action films, science fiction. "Female" hobbies I enjoy: knitting, crochet, baking, various crafts. For the record I played with Barbies as a child (according to Cohen's theories females aspies would shun Barbies for toy trucks).Ilah

[Guest guest]

Hello Ilah,

I do agree with you: I feel irritated as well every now and then when I read this 'being extreme masculine' theory from Cohen. I thought I might have misunderstood what he is really trying to say with that.

I don't know any other women with asperger personally, but if I look at myself I wouldn't know in which way I could be called 'masculine'. I was thinking that the masculine-theory could be saying a lot about Cohen and his prejudice towards men and women.

What I find logical is that there has been done much less study about women with asperger. I think that women with asperger much easier get diagnosed with personality disorders and not with asperger. I wouldn't be suprised if there are as many aspergers among women as men. Asperger probably doens't discriminate men or women : )

To be honest, I wouldn't know what typical 'male hobbies' could be. I know that I have tried out all kinds of things to see if I enjoy doing them and I have safed those that did so.

As a child I played with dolls as well, but mostly preferred to read.

Lida

7. Could part of the reason there are more males aspies than females be because their is more pressure on women/girls to hide their AS traits than men/boys? I am basing this completely on personal experience here (obvious double standard in my family), but I would be interesting in seeing what other aspie females thought about this.8. "Male" hobbies I enjoy: D & D, comics, anime/manga, action films, science fiction. "Female" hobbies I enjoy: knitting, crochet, baking, various crafts. For the record I played with Barbies as a child (according to Cohen's theories females aspies would shun Barbies for toy trucks).Ilah

[Guest guest]

You were very eloquent in your message! I don't know that I have ever read a

more well reasoned argument concerning this, thank you!

e

________________________________

From: Ilah

Sent: Mon 2/28/2005 6:32 AM

To: FAMSecretSociety

Subject: AS and testosterone

I must admit that every time I encounter Cohen's theories of AS

being an extreme masculine mind I feel a little irritated. I am

female and I think it is a little insulting to be called extremely

masculine. Do we call men with excellent people skills extremely

feminine? No, because it is usually concidered insulting to call a

male extemely feminine. I have many different thoughts on this

theory.

1. Of the aspie males I have know in my life, I am not sure I would

use the words extremely male to describe them. The ones I know seem

to be more bookish or geeky than macho. I am sure there are macho

AS guys out their, but they do not seem to be in the majority.

2. If AS guys have more testosterone, wouldn't we see lots of very

muscular AS guys? After all the more testosterone you have the

easier it is to build muscle mass? Also if AS guys have more

testosterone, I would expect a very high sex drive for all AS guys.

However many AS guys (as well as women) have said they have very

little or no sex drive.

3. If AS women are " extremely masculine " and/or have more

testosterone I would expect to see a very high rate of female aspies

that are bisexual or lesbian. From what I have seen on line the

percentage of female AS who are bisexual or lesbian does not seem to

be any higher that the NT population.

4. Colorblindness is much more common in males that females,

however no one is suggesting that colorblind people are extremely

masculine.

5. There is some truth to AS being more masculine. I have noticed

that many AS women, myself included, do have some interests that are

considered masculine. However I think it is overgeneralizing to

call a women masculine just because she likes some masculine

things. I have also noticed that many AS women, myself as well,

also like doing traditional female things as well. This seems to be

ignored by the theory. Is a woman who likes both action films and

knitting masculine or femine? Is a guy who likes military history

and making cookies masculine or feminine?

6. What about the presence of AS guys out there who are sweet and

gentle? That really shouldn't happen according to the theory,

should it? While AS guys might not be good at being empathetic in

the traditional way, many I have known demonstrate a there concern

by doing nice things or offering to help with things or saying " Is

there anything I can do to help? "

7. Could part of the reason there are more males aspies than

females be because their is more pressure on women/girls to hide

their AS traits than men/boys? I am basing this completely on

personal experience here (obvious double standard in my family), but

I would be interesting in seeing what other aspie females thought

about this.

8. " Male " hobbies I enjoy: D & D, comics, anime/manga, action films,

science fiction. " Female " hobbies I enjoy: knitting, crochet,

baking, various crafts. For the record I played with Barbies as a

child (according to Cohen's theories females aspies would shun

Barbies for toy trucks).

Ilah

FAM Secret Society is a community based on respect, friendship, support and

acceptance. Everyone is valued.

[Guest guest]

You were very eloquent in your message! I don't know that I have ever read a

more well reasoned argument concerning this, thank you!

e

________________________________

From: Ilah

Sent: Mon 2/28/2005 6:32 AM

To: FAMSecretSociety

Subject: AS and testosterone

I must admit that every time I encounter Cohen's theories of AS

being an extreme masculine mind I feel a little irritated. I am

female and I think it is a little insulting to be called extremely

masculine. Do we call men with excellent people skills extremely

feminine? No, because it is usually concidered insulting to call a

male extemely feminine. I have many different thoughts on this

theory.

1. Of the aspie males I have know in my life, I am not sure I would

use the words extremely male to describe them. The ones I know seem

to be more bookish or geeky than macho. I am sure there are macho

AS guys out their, but they do not seem to be in the majority.

2. If AS guys have more testosterone, wouldn't we see lots of very

muscular AS guys? After all the more testosterone you have the

easier it is to build muscle mass? Also if AS guys have more

testosterone, I would expect a very high sex drive for all AS guys.

However many AS guys (as well as women) have said they have very

little or no sex drive.

3. If AS women are " extremely masculine " and/or have more

testosterone I would expect to see a very high rate of female aspies

that are bisexual or lesbian. From what I have seen on line the

percentage of female AS who are bisexual or lesbian does not seem to

be any higher that the NT population.

4. Colorblindness is much more common in males that females,

however no one is suggesting that colorblind people are extremely

masculine.

5. There is some truth to AS being more masculine. I have noticed

that many AS women, myself included, do have some interests that are

considered masculine. However I think it is overgeneralizing to

call a women masculine just because she likes some masculine

things. I have also noticed that many AS women, myself as well,

also like doing traditional female things as well. This seems to be

ignored by the theory. Is a woman who likes both action films and

knitting masculine or femine? Is a guy who likes military history

and making cookies masculine or feminine?

6. What about the presence of AS guys out there who are sweet and

gentle? That really shouldn't happen according to the theory,

should it? While AS guys might not be good at being empathetic in

the traditional way, many I have known demonstrate a there concern

by doing nice things or offering to help with things or saying " Is

there anything I can do to help? "

7. Could part of the reason there are more males aspies than

females be because their is more pressure on women/girls to hide

their AS traits than men/boys? I am basing this completely on

personal experience here (obvious double standard in my family), but

I would be interesting in seeing what other aspie females thought

about this.

8. " Male " hobbies I enjoy: D & D, comics, anime/manga, action films,

science fiction. " Female " hobbies I enjoy: knitting, crochet,

baking, various crafts. For the record I played with Barbies as a

child (according to Cohen's theories females aspies would shun

Barbies for toy trucks).

Ilah

FAM Secret Society is a community based on respect, friendship, support and

acceptance. Everyone is valued.

[Guest guest]

You were very eloquent in your message! I don't know that I have ever read a

more well reasoned argument concerning this, thank you!

e

________________________________

From: Ilah

Sent: Mon 2/28/2005 6:32 AM

To: FAMSecretSociety

Subject: AS and testosterone

I must admit that every time I encounter Cohen's theories of AS

being an extreme masculine mind I feel a little irritated. I am

female and I think it is a little insulting to be called extremely

masculine. Do we call men with excellent people skills extremely

feminine? No, because it is usually concidered insulting to call a

male extemely feminine. I have many different thoughts on this

theory.

1. Of the aspie males I have know in my life, I am not sure I would

use the words extremely male to describe them. The ones I know seem

to be more bookish or geeky than macho. I am sure there are macho

AS guys out their, but they do not seem to be in the majority.

2. If AS guys have more testosterone, wouldn't we see lots of very

muscular AS guys? After all the more testosterone you have the

easier it is to build muscle mass? Also if AS guys have more

testosterone, I would expect a very high sex drive for all AS guys.

However many AS guys (as well as women) have said they have very

little or no sex drive.

3. If AS women are " extremely masculine " and/or have more

testosterone I would expect to see a very high rate of female aspies

that are bisexual or lesbian. From what I have seen on line the

percentage of female AS who are bisexual or lesbian does not seem to

be any higher that the NT population.

4. Colorblindness is much more common in males that females,

however no one is suggesting that colorblind people are extremely

masculine.

5. There is some truth to AS being more masculine. I have noticed

that many AS women, myself included, do have some interests that are

considered masculine. However I think it is overgeneralizing to

call a women masculine just because she likes some masculine

things. I have also noticed that many AS women, myself as well,

also like doing traditional female things as well. This seems to be

ignored by the theory. Is a woman who likes both action films and

knitting masculine or femine? Is a guy who likes military history

and making cookies masculine or feminine?

6. What about the presence of AS guys out there who are sweet and

gentle? That really shouldn't happen according to the theory,

should it? While AS guys might not be good at being empathetic in

the traditional way, many I have known demonstrate a there concern

by doing nice things or offering to help with things or saying " Is

there anything I can do to help? "

7. Could part of the reason there are more males aspies than

females be because their is more pressure on women/girls to hide

their AS traits than men/boys? I am basing this completely on

personal experience here (obvious double standard in my family), but

I would be interesting in seeing what other aspie females thought

about this.

8. " Male " hobbies I enjoy: D & D, comics, anime/manga, action films,

science fiction. " Female " hobbies I enjoy: knitting, crochet,

baking, various crafts. For the record I played with Barbies as a

child (according to Cohen's theories females aspies would shun

Barbies for toy trucks).

Ilah

FAM Secret Society is a community based on respect, friendship, support and

acceptance. Everyone is valued.

[Guest guest]

llah,

I think there is a little misperception here about what testosterone is about. Indeed much of the early research about it was primitive and is being called into question by newer and more advanced studies. The older studies linked testosterone with risk taking, rudeness and basically all the bad things men do. Newer studies show that, as you might expect, it is not the only factor.

The part of the brain that regulates risk is not fully developed until about age 25. Rudeness and bullying is as much poor social skills and bad family background. Criminal behavior is also linked as much to bad upbringing, brain damage and the involvement of drugs and alcohol as it is to testosterone.

It is also true that many men with high levels of testosterone do not show these traits at all. When men know how to act properly in the first place, high levels of the hormone might make the more assertive, better leaders and things like that.

One reason you don't see a lot of muscular Aspies out there, if the theory is true, is because they probably don't work out. Even is the hormone levels are high, if you don't work out using heavy weights, then you won't have big muscles. There is also some misperception out there too as to what lifting weights does to the body. Those professional bodybuilding mutants, many pro-wrestlers and the like use steriods. Don't let them kid you when they say they don't: you don't get that big without them. Just look at Atlas and the old time strong men and you will see the upper limits of what the body will look like without steroids. Women also don't have anything to worry about. Women can workout with weights and can get pretty strong, but their muscules are designed slightly differently. So women will tend to tone more than put on more mass. It is even more true of women bodybuilders that they have to use steroids to get really big.

(The type and methods of exercise also play a role. Aerobics will result in more toning as will light, high rep weights. Using heavy, moderate rep weights with a lot of sets is where you get size. I use most moderate to heavy weight with low reps and one or two sets, aiming for strength and cardiovascular benefit rather than building mass)

So the point is, testosterone got a bad rap based on a few old studies. Unfortunately those old ideas still hold a lot of sway.

[Guest guest]

llah,

I think there is a little misperception here about what testosterone is about. Indeed much of the early research about it was primitive and is being called into question by newer and more advanced studies. The older studies linked testosterone with risk taking, rudeness and basically all the bad things men do. Newer studies show that, as you might expect, it is not the only factor.

The part of the brain that regulates risk is not fully developed until about age 25. Rudeness and bullying is as much poor social skills and bad family background. Criminal behavior is also linked as much to bad upbringing, brain damage and the involvement of drugs and alcohol as it is to testosterone.

It is also true that many men with high levels of testosterone do not show these traits at all. When men know how to act properly in the first place, high levels of the hormone might make the more assertive, better leaders and things like that.

One reason you don't see a lot of muscular Aspies out there, if the theory is true, is because they probably don't work out. Even is the hormone levels are high, if you don't work out using heavy weights, then you won't have big muscles. There is also some misperception out there too as to what lifting weights does to the body. Those professional bodybuilding mutants, many pro-wrestlers and the like use steriods. Don't let them kid you when they say they don't: you don't get that big without them. Just look at Atlas and the old time strong men and you will see the upper limits of what the body will look like without steroids. Women also don't have anything to worry about. Women can workout with weights and can get pretty strong, but their muscules are designed slightly differently. So women will tend to tone more than put on more mass. It is even more true of women bodybuilders that they have to use steroids to get really big.

(The type and methods of exercise also play a role. Aerobics will result in more toning as will light, high rep weights. Using heavy, moderate rep weights with a lot of sets is where you get size. I use most moderate to heavy weight with low reps and one or two sets, aiming for strength and cardiovascular benefit rather than building mass)

So the point is, testosterone got a bad rap based on a few old studies. Unfortunately those old ideas still hold a lot of sway.

[Guest guest]

llah,

I think there is a little misperception here about what testosterone is about. Indeed much of the early research about it was primitive and is being called into question by newer and more advanced studies. The older studies linked testosterone with risk taking, rudeness and basically all the bad things men do. Newer studies show that, as you might expect, it is not the only factor.

The part of the brain that regulates risk is not fully developed until about age 25. Rudeness and bullying is as much poor social skills and bad family background. Criminal behavior is also linked as much to bad upbringing, brain damage and the involvement of drugs and alcohol as it is to testosterone.

It is also true that many men with high levels of testosterone do not show these traits at all. When men know how to act properly in the first place, high levels of the hormone might make the more assertive, better leaders and things like that.

One reason you don't see a lot of muscular Aspies out there, if the theory is true, is because they probably don't work out. Even is the hormone levels are high, if you don't work out using heavy weights, then you won't have big muscles. There is also some misperception out there too as to what lifting weights does to the body. Those professional bodybuilding mutants, many pro-wrestlers and the like use steriods. Don't let them kid you when they say they don't: you don't get that big without them. Just look at Atlas and the old time strong men and you will see the upper limits of what the body will look like without steroids. Women also don't have anything to worry about. Women can workout with weights and can get pretty strong, but their muscules are designed slightly differently. So women will tend to tone more than put on more mass. It is even more true of women bodybuilders that they have to use steroids to get really big.

(The type and methods of exercise also play a role. Aerobics will result in more toning as will light, high rep weights. Using heavy, moderate rep weights with a lot of sets is where you get size. I use most moderate to heavy weight with low reps and one or two sets, aiming for strength and cardiovascular benefit rather than building mass)

So the point is, testosterone got a bad rap based on a few old studies. Unfortunately those old ideas still hold a lot of sway.

[Guest guest]

That is a good point on confusing testosterone with machoness. Testosterone is what it is, just a hormone and its purpose is to make men men (I know women have some too). The macho thing is indeed a social creation. It is a set of social rules governing behavior. Actually, a lot of it has to do with covering up the insecurities and fear that everyone feels. A lot of the macho stuff is all fuss and bluster meant to stake out "turf" and impress the ladies, much like the feathers on a peacock or the antlers on a deer. Lacking such physical traits humans have to use social cues instead.

The problem with the macho thing is is that it only works until you try it on someone who is more "macho". That is when the more macho puts down the other fellow. As a result, machoness has to sink to the lowest common denominator to psych out the largest number of people. The problem there is that pretty soon everyone is running around with this hair triggered attitude where the littlest thing can be seen as a threat to their "manhood".

So, what started out as a defensive thing becomes a trap where violence could break out at any time someone thinks their "machismo" has been challenged. Sure, that vast majority of those guys are scared to death someone will call them on it, but they are trapped by their system and they have to at least put on a good show. Part of that show is if the other fellow shows weakness, you go after them and prove your "manhood" by beating them up. The other guy has to keep up the act too because he knows what will happen if he backs down: he will be seen as weak and more likely to be kicked around by everyone else.

It is really no wonder that where this macho attitude takes over that there is so much crime and violence. Testosterone has little to do with it, it is all a social construct created out of fear of one's fellow man.

[Guest guest]

That is a good point on confusing testosterone with machoness. Testosterone is what it is, just a hormone and its purpose is to make men men (I know women have some too). The macho thing is indeed a social creation. It is a set of social rules governing behavior. Actually, a lot of it has to do with covering up the insecurities and fear that everyone feels. A lot of the macho stuff is all fuss and bluster meant to stake out "turf" and impress the ladies, much like the feathers on a peacock or the antlers on a deer. Lacking such physical traits humans have to use social cues instead.

The problem with the macho thing is is that it only works until you try it on someone who is more "macho". That is when the more macho puts down the other fellow. As a result, machoness has to sink to the lowest common denominator to psych out the largest number of people. The problem there is that pretty soon everyone is running around with this hair triggered attitude where the littlest thing can be seen as a threat to their "manhood".

So, what started out as a defensive thing becomes a trap where violence could break out at any time someone thinks their "machismo" has been challenged. Sure, that vast majority of those guys are scared to death someone will call them on it, but they are trapped by their system and they have to at least put on a good show. Part of that show is if the other fellow shows weakness, you go after them and prove your "manhood" by beating them up. The other guy has to keep up the act too because he knows what will happen if he backs down: he will be seen as weak and more likely to be kicked around by everyone else.

It is really no wonder that where this macho attitude takes over that there is so much crime and violence. Testosterone has little to do with it, it is all a social construct created out of fear of one's fellow man.

[Guest guest]

That is a good point on confusing testosterone with machoness. Testosterone is what it is, just a hormone and its purpose is to make men men (I know women have some too). The macho thing is indeed a social creation. It is a set of social rules governing behavior. Actually, a lot of it has to do with covering up the insecurities and fear that everyone feels. A lot of the macho stuff is all fuss and bluster meant to stake out "turf" and impress the ladies, much like the feathers on a peacock or the antlers on a deer. Lacking such physical traits humans have to use social cues instead.

The problem with the macho thing is is that it only works until you try it on someone who is more "macho". That is when the more macho puts down the other fellow. As a result, machoness has to sink to the lowest common denominator to psych out the largest number of people. The problem there is that pretty soon everyone is running around with this hair triggered attitude where the littlest thing can be seen as a threat to their "manhood".

So, what started out as a defensive thing becomes a trap where violence could break out at any time someone thinks their "machismo" has been challenged. Sure, that vast majority of those guys are scared to death someone will call them on it, but they are trapped by their system and they have to at least put on a good show. Part of that show is if the other fellow shows weakness, you go after them and prove your "manhood" by beating them up. The other guy has to keep up the act too because he knows what will happen if he backs down: he will be seen as weak and more likely to be kicked around by everyone else.

It is really no wonder that where this macho attitude takes over that there is so much crime and violence. Testosterone has little to do with it, it is all a social construct created out of fear of one's fellow man.

[Guest guest]

> A couple of things. Firstly you're presuming that maleness is

judged

> by machoness, and that extreme maleness must mean very macho. Isn't

> that just a social stereotype? I don't agree with that. Also,

you're

> going along the idea that it is the aspies who have all the

> testosterone. I thought it was the parents of the aspies... Does

the

> theory say it's the aspies? I'd like to know.

>

> Okay, I only really wanted to mention the macho part... The other

> stuff I agree with.

I admit, it is a little stereotypical, but it is what I think of

when I hear the phrase extreme maleness. (The phrase itself sounds

very sterotypical to me.) What do you think of when you hear the

term extreme maleness?

Cohen's theory was that it was exposure to (too much) testestorone

in the womb that caused AS. However, one or two people on the board

brought up the idea of aspies having more testosterone than normal.

Ilah

[Guest guest]

> A couple of things. Firstly you're presuming that maleness is

judged

> by machoness, and that extreme maleness must mean very macho. Isn't

> that just a social stereotype? I don't agree with that. Also,

you're

> going along the idea that it is the aspies who have all the

> testosterone. I thought it was the parents of the aspies... Does

the

> theory say it's the aspies? I'd like to know.

>

> Okay, I only really wanted to mention the macho part... The other

> stuff I agree with.

I admit, it is a little stereotypical, but it is what I think of

when I hear the phrase extreme maleness. (The phrase itself sounds

very sterotypical to me.) What do you think of when you hear the

term extreme maleness?

Cohen's theory was that it was exposure to (too much) testestorone

in the womb that caused AS. However, one or two people on the board

brought up the idea of aspies having more testosterone than normal.

Ilah

[Guest guest]

> A couple of things. Firstly you're presuming that maleness is

judged

> by machoness, and that extreme maleness must mean very macho. Isn't

> that just a social stereotype? I don't agree with that. Also,

you're

> going along the idea that it is the aspies who have all the

> testosterone. I thought it was the parents of the aspies... Does

the

> theory say it's the aspies? I'd like to know.

>

> Okay, I only really wanted to mention the macho part... The other

> stuff I agree with.

I admit, it is a little stereotypical, but it is what I think of

when I hear the phrase extreme maleness. (The phrase itself sounds

very sterotypical to me.) What do you think of when you hear the

term extreme maleness?

Cohen's theory was that it was exposure to (too much) testestorone

in the womb that caused AS. However, one or two people on the board

brought up the idea of aspies having more testosterone than normal.

Ilah

[Guest guest]

Ilah, really great analysis here:

> 1. Of the aspie males I have know in my life, I am not sure I would

use the words extremely male to describe them. The ones I know seem

to be more bookish or geeky than macho. I am sure there are macho

AS guys out their, but they do not seem to be in the majority.

I think Baron-Cohen means male THINKING rather than male looks or male

behavior. That both men and Aspies tend to be more interested in systems,

science, technology, abstract ideas and the material world, whereas

non-Aspie women usually are more interested in the social aspect of life.

> 2. If AS guys have more testosterone, wouldn't we see lots of very

muscular AS guys? After all the more testosterone you have the

easier it is to build muscle mass? Also if AS guys have more

testosterone, I would expect a very high sex drive for all AS guys.

However many AS guys (as well as women) have said they have very

little or no sex drive.

Most Aspie men (with a few exceptions of course) seem to have less interest

in both sports, competition, sex and other typical male activities, than the

average NT male. But as pointed out, it's not about the amount of

testosterone they have in their bodies, but how much testosterone they were

subjected to in the woumb. Those are two different things.

> 3. If AS women are " extremely masculine " and/or have more

testosterone I would expect to see a very high rate of female aspies

that are bisexual or lesbian. From what I have seen on line the

percentage of female AS who are bisexual or lesbian does not seem to

be any higher that the NT population.

Are you sure about that? It could be that they simply don't discuss it with

just anyone. When I've discussed this in other groups - and also a

discussion at Aspergia or AI before - it seems to indeed be very prevalent

with such tendencies. I've seen more male tendencies in Aspies and ADHD

women than among the general population.

> 4. Colorblindness is much more common in males that females,

however no one is suggesting that colorblind people are extremely

masculine.

Right.

> 5. There is some truth to AS being more masculine. I have noticed

that many AS women, myself included, do have some interests that are

considered masculine. However I think it is overgeneralizing to

call a women masculine just because she likes some masculine

things.

Again, THINKING in a masculine way, not necessarily feeling, looking or

behaving masculine. As I said the other day, I feel very much like a woman

but I still tend to think like a man. I also tend to identify with men. Like

for example when my best friend would tell me of problems with her BF, I

could much more easily understand his feeling than hers (especially since I

suspect that he's an Aspie) even though she was my best friend and probably

expeced me to see things from her POV.

> I have also noticed that many AS women, myself as well,

also like doing traditional female things as well. This seems to be

ignored by the theory.

Right! Perhaps you ought to point this out to Baron-Cohen? You remind me

very much of a girl in our Swedish forum who both loves to collect HD's and

veteran cars and to knit and cook.

> Is a woman who likes both action films and knitting masculine or femine?

> Is a guy who likes military history and making cookies masculine or

> feminine?

An ADHD guy I know is an ex-WMD desinger and also a stay-at-home-dad. Some

people try to make fun of him for that but they usually end up regretting

it. He's not the least bit feminine. :-)

> 6. What about the presence of AS guys out there who are sweet

and gentle? That really shouldn't happen according to the theory,

should it? While AS guys might not be good at being empathetic in

the traditional way, many I have known demonstrate a there concern

by doing nice things or offering to help with things or saying " Is

there anything I can do to help? "

Right. Most Aspie guys I've met are really nice guys.

> 7. Could part of the reason there are more males aspies than

females be because their is more pressure on women/girls to hide

their AS traits than men/boys?

Absolutely! This is even recognised in Swedish Aspie literature. Even if we

Aspie women are usually more socially clueless than NT women, we're still

often able to at least try to act NT and hide our oddness and also to turn

things inward, perhaps self-injuring or being anorexic in secret, whereas

Aspie boys are more likely to be acting out, especially if they also have

ADHD.

The literature also says that there are many Aspie women who may go

unrecognised because they may lack obvious special interests, are very timid

and shy, and their most dominant feature is passivity and reluctance to

participate in anything. They tend to say " no " to everything just in case it

might be too overwhelming. I was like this when I was younger (although I've

always had special interests).

> I am basing this completely on personal experience here (obvious double

> standard in my family), but

I would be interesting in seeing what other aspie females thought about

this.

I think you've made some very astute observations, Ilah.

8. " Male " hobbies I enjoy: D & D, comics, anime/manga, action films,

science fiction. " Female " hobbies I enjoy: knitting, crochet,

baking, various crafts. For the record I played with Barbies as a

child (according to Cohen's theories females aspies would shun

Barbies for toy trucks).

Well, my first toy was a nice big red race car. I loved cars. I was also

given a horrid baby doll but I hated that one (I put the race car in the

doll pram, lol). I read mostly Superman and Batman. But at the same time, I

loved pink frilly dresses and glittery high heels. I hated when my mom made

me wear pants. (My most traumatic childhood memories are a) not being

allowed to choose the wallpaper for my room having to

wear pants.)

In my teens and 20's I read Omni, Penthouse and car magazines. But was also

very interested in fashion and interior decorating. Now I'm interested in

pshychology and lighting. (I was so thrilled the other day to find that they

had finally installed some HF-powered White Son sodium lights in the center

of Stockholm, that I jumped up and down and couldn't stop talking about it.

The others in the car were like " Yes, Inger, very interesting...

zzzzzz... " ).

Ruth:

> I sometimes pondered the thoughts of why more males than females and was

> able to simply dismiss it because we do not have real statistics.

Right. We simply don't know how many undiscovered or misdiagnosed Aspies

there are out there.

> But I have noticed that women, in my country, over the years have seemed

> to want to be more like men so they compete by acting more like men

> instead of even considering why. My AS traits did work well in business

> unless I was dealing with female coworkers.

I too have noticed that. A very similar theory to Baron-Cohen's

http://originsofautism.com/ lists a number of factors that increase

testosterone levels in women.

It is also possible that what we are seing is the birth of a new race; one

which allows more expression of a person's soul regardless of gender. One in

which one's mind is so developed that it is finally becoming liberated from

our age-old slavery under our hormones & social conventions.

Perhaps this is the way everyone will be in the future - and the development

over the last 100 years or so sure does point steadily in this direction -

free to be who we are and express both our feminine, masculine and neutral

traits as each of us feel inspired to? To be unique individuals rather than

trying to fit into a stereotyped mold?

I think this is a most wonderful prospect!

Inger

[Guest guest]

Ilah, really great analysis here:

> 1. Of the aspie males I have know in my life, I am not sure I would

use the words extremely male to describe them. The ones I know seem

to be more bookish or geeky than macho. I am sure there are macho

AS guys out their, but they do not seem to be in the majority.

I think Baron-Cohen means male THINKING rather than male looks or male

behavior. That both men and Aspies tend to be more interested in systems,

science, technology, abstract ideas and the material world, whereas

non-Aspie women usually are more interested in the social aspect of life.

> 2. If AS guys have more testosterone, wouldn't we see lots of very

muscular AS guys? After all the more testosterone you have the

easier it is to build muscle mass? Also if AS guys have more

testosterone, I would expect a very high sex drive for all AS guys.

However many AS guys (as well as women) have said they have very

little or no sex drive.

Most Aspie men (with a few exceptions of course) seem to have less interest

in both sports, competition, sex and other typical male activities, than the

average NT male. But as pointed out, it's not about the amount of

testosterone they have in their bodies, but how much testosterone they were

subjected to in the woumb. Those are two different things.

> 3. If AS women are " extremely masculine " and/or have more

testosterone I would expect to see a very high rate of female aspies

that are bisexual or lesbian. From what I have seen on line the

percentage of female AS who are bisexual or lesbian does not seem to

be any higher that the NT population.

Are you sure about that? It could be that they simply don't discuss it with

just anyone. When I've discussed this in other groups - and also a

discussion at Aspergia or AI before - it seems to indeed be very prevalent

with such tendencies. I've seen more male tendencies in Aspies and ADHD

women than among the general population.

> 4. Colorblindness is much more common in males that females,

however no one is suggesting that colorblind people are extremely

masculine.

Right.

> 5. There is some truth to AS being more masculine. I have noticed

that many AS women, myself included, do have some interests that are

considered masculine. However I think it is overgeneralizing to

call a women masculine just because she likes some masculine

things.

Again, THINKING in a masculine way, not necessarily feeling, looking or

behaving masculine. As I said the other day, I feel very much like a woman

but I still tend to think like a man. I also tend to identify with men. Like

for example when my best friend would tell me of problems with her BF, I

could much more easily understand his feeling than hers (especially since I

suspect that he's an Aspie) even though she was my best friend and probably

expeced me to see things from her POV.

> I have also noticed that many AS women, myself as well,

also like doing traditional female things as well. This seems to be

ignored by the theory.

Right! Perhaps you ought to point this out to Baron-Cohen? You remind me

very much of a girl in our Swedish forum who both loves to collect HD's and

veteran cars and to knit and cook.

> Is a woman who likes both action films and knitting masculine or femine?

> Is a guy who likes military history and making cookies masculine or

> feminine?

An ADHD guy I know is an ex-WMD desinger and also a stay-at-home-dad. Some

people try to make fun of him for that but they usually end up regretting

it. He's not the least bit feminine. :-)

> 6. What about the presence of AS guys out there who are sweet

and gentle? That really shouldn't happen according to the theory,

should it? While AS guys might not be good at being empathetic in

the traditional way, many I have known demonstrate a there concern

by doing nice things or offering to help with things or saying " Is

there anything I can do to help? "

Right. Most Aspie guys I've met are really nice guys.

> 7. Could part of the reason there are more males aspies than

females be because their is more pressure on women/girls to hide

their AS traits than men/boys?

Absolutely! This is even recognised in Swedish Aspie literature. Even if we

Aspie women are usually more socially clueless than NT women, we're still

often able to at least try to act NT and hide our oddness and also to turn

things inward, perhaps self-injuring or being anorexic in secret, whereas

Aspie boys are more likely to be acting out, especially if they also have

ADHD.

The literature also says that there are many Aspie women who may go

unrecognised because they may lack obvious special interests, are very timid

and shy, and their most dominant feature is passivity and reluctance to

participate in anything. They tend to say " no " to everything just in case it

might be too overwhelming. I was like this when I was younger (although I've

always had special interests).

> I am basing this completely on personal experience here (obvious double

> standard in my family), but

I would be interesting in seeing what other aspie females thought about

this.

I think you've made some very astute observations, Ilah.

8. " Male " hobbies I enjoy: D & D, comics, anime/manga, action films,

science fiction. " Female " hobbies I enjoy: knitting, crochet,

baking, various crafts. For the record I played with Barbies as a

child (according to Cohen's theories females aspies would shun

Barbies for toy trucks).

Well, my first toy was a nice big red race car. I loved cars. I was also

given a horrid baby doll but I hated that one (I put the race car in the

doll pram, lol). I read mostly Superman and Batman. But at the same time, I

loved pink frilly dresses and glittery high heels. I hated when my mom made

me wear pants. (My most traumatic childhood memories are a) not being

allowed to choose the wallpaper for my room having to

wear pants.)

In my teens and 20's I read Omni, Penthouse and car magazines. But was also

very interested in fashion and interior decorating. Now I'm interested in

pshychology and lighting. (I was so thrilled the other day to find that they

had finally installed some HF-powered White Son sodium lights in the center

of Stockholm, that I jumped up and down and couldn't stop talking about it.

The others in the car were like " Yes, Inger, very interesting...

zzzzzz... " ).

Ruth:

> I sometimes pondered the thoughts of why more males than females and was

> able to simply dismiss it because we do not have real statistics.

Right. We simply don't know how many undiscovered or misdiagnosed Aspies

there are out there.

> But I have noticed that women, in my country, over the years have seemed

> to want to be more like men so they compete by acting more like men

> instead of even considering why. My AS traits did work well in business

> unless I was dealing with female coworkers.

I too have noticed that. A very similar theory to Baron-Cohen's

http://originsofautism.com/ lists a number of factors that increase

testosterone levels in women.

It is also possible that what we are seing is the birth of a new race; one

which allows more expression of a person's soul regardless of gender. One in

which one's mind is so developed that it is finally becoming liberated from

our age-old slavery under our hormones & social conventions.

Perhaps this is the way everyone will be in the future - and the development

over the last 100 years or so sure does point steadily in this direction -

free to be who we are and express both our feminine, masculine and neutral

traits as each of us feel inspired to? To be unique individuals rather than

trying to fit into a stereotyped mold?

I think this is a most wonderful prospect!

Inger

[Guest guest]

Ilah, really great analysis here:

> 1. Of the aspie males I have know in my life, I am not sure I would

use the words extremely male to describe them. The ones I know seem

to be more bookish or geeky than macho. I am sure there are macho

AS guys out their, but they do not seem to be in the majority.

I think Baron-Cohen means male THINKING rather than male looks or male

behavior. That both men and Aspies tend to be more interested in systems,

science, technology, abstract ideas and the material world, whereas

non-Aspie women usually are more interested in the social aspect of life.

> 2. If AS guys have more testosterone, wouldn't we see lots of very

muscular AS guys? After all the more testosterone you have the

easier it is to build muscle mass? Also if AS guys have more

testosterone, I would expect a very high sex drive for all AS guys.

However many AS guys (as well as women) have said they have very

little or no sex drive.

Most Aspie men (with a few exceptions of course) seem to have less interest

in both sports, competition, sex and other typical male activities, than the

average NT male. But as pointed out, it's not about the amount of

testosterone they have in their bodies, but how much testosterone they were

subjected to in the woumb. Those are two different things.

> 3. If AS women are " extremely masculine " and/or have more

testosterone I would expect to see a very high rate of female aspies

that are bisexual or lesbian. From what I have seen on line the

percentage of female AS who are bisexual or lesbian does not seem to

be any higher that the NT population.

Are you sure about that? It could be that they simply don't discuss it with

just anyone. When I've discussed this in other groups - and also a

discussion at Aspergia or AI before - it seems to indeed be very prevalent

with such tendencies. I've seen more male tendencies in Aspies and ADHD

women than among the general population.

> 4. Colorblindness is much more common in males that females,

however no one is suggesting that colorblind people are extremely

masculine.

Right.

> 5. There is some truth to AS being more masculine. I have noticed

that many AS women, myself included, do have some interests that are

considered masculine. However I think it is overgeneralizing to

call a women masculine just because she likes some masculine

things.

Again, THINKING in a masculine way, not necessarily feeling, looking or

behaving masculine. As I said the other day, I feel very much like a woman

but I still tend to think like a man. I also tend to identify with men. Like

for example when my best friend would tell me of problems with her BF, I

could much more easily understand his feeling than hers (especially since I

suspect that he's an Aspie) even though she was my best friend and probably

expeced me to see things from her POV.

> I have also noticed that many AS women, myself as well,

also like doing traditional female things as well. This seems to be

ignored by the theory.

Right! Perhaps you ought to point this out to Baron-Cohen? You remind me

very much of a girl in our Swedish forum who both loves to collect HD's and

veteran cars and to knit and cook.

> Is a woman who likes both action films and knitting masculine or femine?

> Is a guy who likes military history and making cookies masculine or

> feminine?

An ADHD guy I know is an ex-WMD desinger and also a stay-at-home-dad. Some

people try to make fun of him for that but they usually end up regretting

it. He's not the least bit feminine. :-)

> 6. What about the presence of AS guys out there who are sweet

and gentle? That really shouldn't happen according to the theory,

should it? While AS guys might not be good at being empathetic in

the traditional way, many I have known demonstrate a there concern

by doing nice things or offering to help with things or saying " Is

there anything I can do to help? "

Right. Most Aspie guys I've met are really nice guys.

> 7. Could part of the reason there are more males aspies than

females be because their is more pressure on women/girls to hide

their AS traits than men/boys?

Absolutely! This is even recognised in Swedish Aspie literature. Even if we

Aspie women are usually more socially clueless than NT women, we're still

often able to at least try to act NT and hide our oddness and also to turn

things inward, perhaps self-injuring or being anorexic in secret, whereas

Aspie boys are more likely to be acting out, especially if they also have

ADHD.

The literature also says that there are many Aspie women who may go

unrecognised because they may lack obvious special interests, are very timid

and shy, and their most dominant feature is passivity and reluctance to

participate in anything. They tend to say " no " to everything just in case it

might be too overwhelming. I was like this when I was younger (although I've

always had special interests).

> I am basing this completely on personal experience here (obvious double

> standard in my family), but

I would be interesting in seeing what other aspie females thought about

this.

I think you've made some very astute observations, Ilah.

8. " Male " hobbies I enjoy: D & D, comics, anime/manga, action films,

science fiction. " Female " hobbies I enjoy: knitting, crochet,

baking, various crafts. For the record I played with Barbies as a

child (according to Cohen's theories females aspies would shun

Barbies for toy trucks).

Well, my first toy was a nice big red race car. I loved cars. I was also

given a horrid baby doll but I hated that one (I put the race car in the

doll pram, lol). I read mostly Superman and Batman. But at the same time, I

loved pink frilly dresses and glittery high heels. I hated when my mom made

me wear pants. (My most traumatic childhood memories are a) not being

allowed to choose the wallpaper for my room having to

wear pants.)

In my teens and 20's I read Omni, Penthouse and car magazines. But was also

very interested in fashion and interior decorating. Now I'm interested in

pshychology and lighting. (I was so thrilled the other day to find that they

had finally installed some HF-powered White Son sodium lights in the center

of Stockholm, that I jumped up and down and couldn't stop talking about it.

The others in the car were like " Yes, Inger, very interesting...

zzzzzz... " ).

Ruth:

> I sometimes pondered the thoughts of why more males than females and was

> able to simply dismiss it because we do not have real statistics.

Right. We simply don't know how many undiscovered or misdiagnosed Aspies

there are out there.

> But I have noticed that women, in my country, over the years have seemed

> to want to be more like men so they compete by acting more like men

> instead of even considering why. My AS traits did work well in business

> unless I was dealing with female coworkers.

I too have noticed that. A very similar theory to Baron-Cohen's

http://originsofautism.com/ lists a number of factors that increase

testosterone levels in women.

It is also possible that what we are seing is the birth of a new race; one

which allows more expression of a person's soul regardless of gender. One in

which one's mind is so developed that it is finally becoming liberated from

our age-old slavery under our hormones & social conventions.

Perhaps this is the way everyone will be in the future - and the development

over the last 100 years or so sure does point steadily in this direction -

free to be who we are and express both our feminine, masculine and neutral

traits as each of us feel inspired to? To be unique individuals rather than

trying to fit into a stereotyped mold?

I think this is a most wonderful prospect!

Inger

[Guest guest]

As promised as few more comments.

--- In FAMSecretSociety , " endtrace " <endtrace@y...>

>

> >4. Colorblindness is much more common in males that females,

however

> no one is suggesting that colorblind people are extremely

masculine.

>

> Are you sure?

I am sure that colorblindness is much more common in males.

Colorblindness runs in my family. When I was fairly young my

parents explained the genetics of colorblindness to me and why it

affects men more than women. A simlified version, if a male

inherits a colorblind gene from either parent (or both) he his

colorblind. If a female inherits a colorblind gene from only one

parent, she is a carrier (may pass it on to her children), but is

not colorblind herself. A female is only colorblind if she inherits

the gene from both parents. As for the second part of the sentance,

perhaps I should say that as far as I know, no one is suggesting

colorblind people are extremely masculine.

> >7. Could part of the reason there are more males aspies than

females

> be because their is more pressure on women/girls to hide their AS

> traits than men/boys? I am basing this completely on personal

> experience here (obvious double standard in my family), but I

would

> be interesting in seeing what other aspie females thought

> about this.

>

> I'm not female, but allow me to ask if you have thought about the

> enormous pressure on men not to show feelings, to act macho, and

not

> admit pain--hence many never complain or go see doctors, so end up

> just dying earlier deaths.

I agree that men also have a similiar problem if they appear too

feminine. However, I was thinking primarily in the context of AS.

That is if AS is a masculine trait, woman would be more likely to

try to hide it than men. (Men would not feel a need to hide a

masculine trait.)

But then I thought that their are parts of AS (these would be parts

not covered by Cohen's theory) that would be more difficult for men

than women. Many aspies are also HSP (highly sensitive people)

although I do not think that is a requirement for a diagnosis. It

seems like it would be much harder for a man to admit to being

highly sensitive, as this seems like a femine trait. Also I have

seen aspie men who are teased as being wimps for lack of their

athletic ability. (An inaccurate attribution as the lack of

athletic ability is more due to poor motor coordination than lack of

strength.) It is far more acceptable for a women to be completely

lacking in athlectic ability. (School gym classes were a nightmare,

but after I got out of school it wasn't much of an issue.)

>

> According to the DSM IV and ICD-10, if you played pretend with

Barbie

> you may not be AS.

I guess I am pretty lucky then to have found a group that accepts me

as one of their own, even though I don't have an official dx.

Didn't you mention that you were unable to get a diagnosis? Were

you given a reason? I am curious as to why you did not qualify in

their eyes.

Ilah

>

[Guest guest]

As promised as few more comments.

--- In FAMSecretSociety , " endtrace " <endtrace@y...>

>

> >4. Colorblindness is much more common in males that females,

however

> no one is suggesting that colorblind people are extremely

masculine.

>

> Are you sure?

I am sure that colorblindness is much more common in males.

Colorblindness runs in my family. When I was fairly young my

parents explained the genetics of colorblindness to me and why it

affects men more than women. A simlified version, if a male

inherits a colorblind gene from either parent (or both) he his

colorblind. If a female inherits a colorblind gene from only one

parent, she is a carrier (may pass it on to her children), but is

not colorblind herself. A female is only colorblind if she inherits

the gene from both parents. As for the second part of the sentance,

perhaps I should say that as far as I know, no one is suggesting

colorblind people are extremely masculine.

> >7. Could part of the reason there are more males aspies than

females

> be because their is more pressure on women/girls to hide their AS

> traits than men/boys? I am basing this completely on personal

> experience here (obvious double standard in my family), but I

would

> be interesting in seeing what other aspie females thought

> about this.

>

> I'm not female, but allow me to ask if you have thought about the

> enormous pressure on men not to show feelings, to act macho, and

not

> admit pain--hence many never complain or go see doctors, so end up

> just dying earlier deaths.

I agree that men also have a similiar problem if they appear too

feminine. However, I was thinking primarily in the context of AS.

That is if AS is a masculine trait, woman would be more likely to

try to hide it than men. (Men would not feel a need to hide a

masculine trait.)

But then I thought that their are parts of AS (these would be parts

not covered by Cohen's theory) that would be more difficult for men

than women. Many aspies are also HSP (highly sensitive people)

although I do not think that is a requirement for a diagnosis. It

seems like it would be much harder for a man to admit to being

highly sensitive, as this seems like a femine trait. Also I have

seen aspie men who are teased as being wimps for lack of their

athletic ability. (An inaccurate attribution as the lack of

athletic ability is more due to poor motor coordination than lack of

strength.) It is far more acceptable for a women to be completely

lacking in athlectic ability. (School gym classes were a nightmare,

but after I got out of school it wasn't much of an issue.)

>

> According to the DSM IV and ICD-10, if you played pretend with

Barbie

> you may not be AS.

I guess I am pretty lucky then to have found a group that accepts me

as one of their own, even though I don't have an official dx.

Didn't you mention that you were unable to get a diagnosis? Were

you given a reason? I am curious as to why you did not qualify in

their eyes.

Ilah

>

[Guest guest]

As promised as few more comments.

--- In FAMSecretSociety , " endtrace " <endtrace@y...>

>

> >4. Colorblindness is much more common in males that females,

however

> no one is suggesting that colorblind people are extremely

masculine.

>

> Are you sure?

I am sure that colorblindness is much more common in males.

Colorblindness runs in my family. When I was fairly young my

parents explained the genetics of colorblindness to me and why it

affects men more than women. A simlified version, if a male

inherits a colorblind gene from either parent (or both) he his

colorblind. If a female inherits a colorblind gene from only one

parent, she is a carrier (may pass it on to her children), but is

not colorblind herself. A female is only colorblind if she inherits

the gene from both parents. As for the second part of the sentance,

perhaps I should say that as far as I know, no one is suggesting

colorblind people are extremely masculine.

> >7. Could part of the reason there are more males aspies than

females

> be because their is more pressure on women/girls to hide their AS

> traits than men/boys? I am basing this completely on personal

> experience here (obvious double standard in my family), but I

would

> be interesting in seeing what other aspie females thought

> about this.

>

> I'm not female, but allow me to ask if you have thought about the

> enormous pressure on men not to show feelings, to act macho, and

not

> admit pain--hence many never complain or go see doctors, so end up

> just dying earlier deaths.

I agree that men also have a similiar problem if they appear too

feminine. However, I was thinking primarily in the context of AS.

That is if AS is a masculine trait, woman would be more likely to

try to hide it than men. (Men would not feel a need to hide a

masculine trait.)

But then I thought that their are parts of AS (these would be parts

not covered by Cohen's theory) that would be more difficult for men

than women. Many aspies are also HSP (highly sensitive people)

although I do not think that is a requirement for a diagnosis. It

seems like it would be much harder for a man to admit to being

highly sensitive, as this seems like a femine trait. Also I have

seen aspie men who are teased as being wimps for lack of their

athletic ability. (An inaccurate attribution as the lack of

athletic ability is more due to poor motor coordination than lack of

strength.) It is far more acceptable for a women to be completely

lacking in athlectic ability. (School gym classes were a nightmare,

but after I got out of school it wasn't much of an issue.)

>

> According to the DSM IV and ICD-10, if you played pretend with

Barbie

> you may not be AS.

I guess I am pretty lucky then to have found a group that accepts me

as one of their own, even though I don't have an official dx.

Didn't you mention that you were unable to get a diagnosis? Were

you given a reason? I am curious as to why you did not qualify in

their eyes.

Ilah

>

[Guest guest]

I thought that women were never color blind, only men, because of the genetic code women are only carriers never actually affected.Ilah wrote:

> > >4. Colorblindness is much more common in males that females, however > no one is suggesting that colorblind people are extremely masculine.> > Are you sure?I am sure that colorblindness is much more common in males. Colorblindness runs in my family. When I was fairly young my parents explained the genetics of colorblindness to me and why it affects men more than women. A simlified version, if a male inherits a colorblind gene from either parent (or both) he his colorblind. If a female inherits a colorblind gene from only one parent, she is a carrier (may pass it on to her children), but is not colorblind herself. A female is only colorblind if she inherits the gene from both parents. As for the second part of the sentance, perhaps I should say that as

far as I know, no one is suggesting colorblind people are extremely masculine.FAM Secret Society is a community based on respect, friendship, support and acceptance. Everyone is valued.

Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web

[Guest guest]

I thought that women were never color blind, only men, because of the genetic code women are only carriers never actually affected.Ilah wrote:

> > >4. Colorblindness is much more common in males that females, however > no one is suggesting that colorblind people are extremely masculine.> > Are you sure?I am sure that colorblindness is much more common in males. Colorblindness runs in my family. When I was fairly young my parents explained the genetics of colorblindness to me and why it affects men more than women. A simlified version, if a male inherits a colorblind gene from either parent (or both) he his colorblind. If a female inherits a colorblind gene from only one parent, she is a carrier (may pass it on to her children), but is not colorblind herself. A female is only colorblind if she inherits the gene from both parents. As for the second part of the sentance, perhaps I should say that as

far as I know, no one is suggesting colorblind people are extremely masculine.FAM Secret Society is a community based on respect, friendship, support and acceptance. Everyone is valued.

Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web

[Guest guest]

If you get a copy of the color blind genetics on both X chromosomes then you will be color blind and female. It is less common in women because you need two copies in women. For men, they only have one X chromosome normally, and the genetic section for color vision does not appear on the Y chromosome so a male child of a female carrier has a 50% chance of being color blind. A female child of a color blind female has a 50% chance of being color blind if the father is not. A child of two color blind parents has a 100% chance of colorblindness. A male child of a color blind female has a 100% chance of colorblindness because his father does not provide an X chromosome to him.

(My grandfather was fully colorblind, and many relatives have color distinction problems. My problems are with blue and green, but only certain shades.)

Kathy J.

Re: Re: AS and testosterone

I thought that women were never color blind, only men, because of the genetic code women are only carriers never actually affected.

[Guest guest]

Hi Kathy,

I also have this confusion with green and also with grey. I never agree with others on those colours. So I like old people: they have all green hair : )

Lida

Re: Re: AS and testosterone

I thought that women were never color blind, only men, because of the genetic code women are only carriers never actually affected.FAM Secret Society is a community based on respect, friendship, support and acceptance. Everyone is valued.