Re: Did my first squats - Ooww, questions

[Guest guest]

I have to disagree with you on this one.

Leg Extensions are harder on the knee than the squat, if you have a

history of knee problems then you shouldn't be doin Leg Extensions.

I wouldn't cut squats out, they have studies out that prove the

safety of the squat in rehabillitation work for blown out knees. just

don't go past parallel, if you go past parallel you are putting to

much stress on the knee.

look up message 29104 in the archives al

and now for the studies, (this is very long, it has been compiled by

a Dr. Mel Siff, well known training and strength coach, he wrote

supertraining and facts and fallacies of weight training). hope you

take the time to read some of this it is very interesting,

because " knowledge is power " (stolen from school house rock <hehe>)

Issues involving action of the knee and exercises to strengthen or

rehabilitate knee action, such as the squat, knee extensions and leg

curls, arise so frequently in sport and strength training that I felt

it useful to compile a list of recent articles on this vast topic.

The information gathered here tends to depose to a large extent the

still common view that the squat is inherently a dangerous exercise

and shows increasing support for the use of the squat in training and

rehabilitation, matched by strong criticism of knee extensions and

leg curls. Once considered a contraindicated exercise for cruciate

ligament rehabilitation, the squat emerges as a useful rehabilitation

tool in this regard, while questions are raised about the

effectiveness and safety of isokinetic devices and other 'open chain'

movements like this.

Bear in mind that there are literally thousands of articles which

focus on the analysis, conditioning, rehabilitation and surgery of

the knee, so that this selection should be regarded as but a glimpse

into the complexity of this subject.

Mel Siff

-------------------------------------

Escamilla RF Knee biomechanics of the dynamic squat exercise Med

Sci Sports Exerc 2001 Jan; 33(1):127-41

PURPOSE: Because a strong and stable knee is paramount to an

athlete's or patient's success, an understanding of knee biomechanics

while performing the squat is helpful to therapists, trainers, sports

medicine physicians, researchers, coaches, and athletes who are

interested in closed kinetic chain exercises, knee rehabilitation,

and training for sport. The purpose of this review was to examine

knee biomechanics during the dynamic squat exercise.

METHODS: Tibiofemoral shear and compressive forces, patellofemoral

compressive force, knee muscle activity, and knee stability were

reviewed and discussed relative to athletic performance, injury

potential, and rehabilitation.

RESULTS: Low to moderate posterior shear forces, restrained primarily

by the posterior cruciate ligament (PCL), were generated throughout

the squat for all knee flexion angles. Low anterior shear forces,

restrained primarily by the anterior cruciate ligament (ACL), were

generated between 0 and 60 degrees knee flexion. Patellofemoral

compressive forces and tibiofemoral compressive and shear forces

progressively increased as the knees flexed and decreased as the

knees extended, reaching peak values near maximum knee flexion.

Hence, training the squat in the functional range between 0 and 50

degrees knee flexion may be appropriate for many knee rehabilitation

patients, because knee forces were minimum in the functional range.

Quadriceps, hamstrings, and gastrocnemius activity generally

increased as knee flexion increased, which supports athletes with

healthy knees performing the parallel squat (thighs parallel to

ground at maximum knee flexion) between 0 and 100 degrees knee

flexion. Furthermore, it was demonstrated that the parallel squat was

not injurious to the healthy knee.

CONCLUSIONS: The squat was shown to be an effective exercise to

employ during cruciate ligament or patellofemoral rehabilitation. For

athletes with healthy knees, performing the parallel squat is

recommended over the deep squat, because injury potential to the

menisci and cruciate and collateral ligaments may increase with the

deep squat. The squat does not compromise knee stability, and can

enhance stability if performed correctly. Finally, the squat can be

effective in developing hip, knee, and ankle musculature, because

moderate to high quadriceps, hamstrings, and gastrocnemius activity

were produced during the squat.

My Note: Epidemiological studies comparing Weightlifting and

Powerlifting injury patterns do not corroborate the suggestion above

that deep squats are necessarily more risky than half squats. Some

biomechanical studies even state that half squats impose a greater

patellofemoral force than full squats, so that they may be inherently

less safe. Some coaches and lifters stress that it is relaxation of

the muscles at the bottom of the squat which makes the full squat

more risky and that the full squat per se is not more dangeorus than

the half squat. Almost heretically, other lifters remark that

ballistic recoil off tensed muscles out of the deep squat position is

safer than slow controlled squatting, but I have not come across any

research which substantiates this point of view.

----------------------

Escamilla RF, Fleisig GS, Zheng N, Barrentine SW, Wilk K & s

JR Biomechanics of the knee during closed kinetic chain and open

kinetic chain exercises. Med Sci Sports Exerc 1998 Apr; 30(4): 556-

69

PURPOSE: Although closed (CKCE) and open (OKCE) kinetic chain

exercises are used in athletic training and clinical environments,

few studies have compared knee joint biomechanics while these

exercises are performed dynamically. The purpose of this study was to

quantify knee forces and muscle activity in CKCE (squat and leg

press) and OKCE (knee extension). M

ETHODS: Ten male subjects performed three repetitions of each

exercise at their 12-repetition maximum. Kinematic, kinetic, and

electromyographic data were calculated using video cameras (60 Hz),

force transducers (960 Hz), and EMG (960 Hz). Mathematical muscle

modeling and optimization techniques were employed to estimate

internal muscle forces.

RESULTS: Overall, the squat generated approximately twice as much

hamstring activity as the leg press and knee extensions. Quadriceps

muscle activity was greatest in CKCE when the knee was near full

flexion and in OKCE when the knee was near full extension. OKCE

produced more rectus femoris activity while CKCE produced more vasti

muscle activity. Tibiofemoral compressive force was greatest in CKCE

near full flexion and in OKCE near full extension. Peak tension in

the posterior cruciate ligament was approximately twice as great in

CKCE, and increased with knee flexion. Tension in the anterior

cruciate ligament was present only in OKCE, and occurred near full

extension. Patellofemoral compressive force was greatest in CKCE near

full flexion and in the mid-range of the knee extending phase in

OKCE.

CONCLUSION: An understanding of these results can help in choosing

appropriate exercises for rehabilitation and training.

--------------------------

Stuart MJ, Meglan D, Lutz G, Growney E & An K Comparison of

intersegmental tibiofemoral joint forces and muscle activity during

various closed kinetic chain exercises. Am J Sports Med 1996 Nov-

Dec; 24(6): 792-9

The purpose of this study was to analyze intersegmental forces at the

tibiofemoral joint and muscle activity during three commonly

prescribed closed kinetic chain exercises: the power squat, the front

squat, and the lunge.

Subjects with anterior cruciate ligament-intact knees performed

repetitions of each of the three exercises using a 223-N (50-pound)

barbell. The results showed that the mean tibiofemoral shear force

was posterior (tibial force on femur) throughout the cycle of all

three exercises. The magnitude of the posterior shear forces

increased with knee flexion during the descent phase of each

exercise. Joint compression forces remained constant throughout the

descent and ascent phases of the power squat and the front squat. A

net offset in extension for the moment about the knee was present for

all three exercises. Increased quadriceps muscle activity and the

decreased hamstring muscle activity are required to perform the lunge

as compared with the power squat and the front squat.

A posterior tibiofemoral shear force throughout the entire cycle of

all three exercises in these subjects with anterior cruciate ligament-

intact knees indicates that the potential loading on the injured or

reconstructed anterior cruciate ligament is not significant. The

magnitude of the posterior tibiofemoral shear force is not likely to

be detrimental to the injured or reconstructed posterior cruciate

ligament. These conclusions assume that the resultant anteroposterior

shear force corresponds to the anterior and posterior cruciate

ligament forces.

-----------------------------

Wilk KE, Escamilla R, Fleisig G, Barrentine S, s J & Boyd M A

comparison of tibiofemoral joint forces and electromyographic

activity during open and closed kinetic chain exercises. Am J

Sports Med 1996 Jul-Aug; 24(4): 518-27

We chose to investigate tibiofemoral joint kinetics (compressive

force, anteroposterior shear force, and extension torque) and

electromyographic activity of the quadriceps, hamstring, and

gastrocnemius muscles during open kinetic chain knee extension and

closed kinetic chain leg press and squat.

Ten uninjured male subjects performed 4 isotonic repetitions with a

12 repetition maximal weight for each exercise. Tibiofemoral forces

were calculated using electromyographic, kinematic, and kinetic data.

During the squat, the maximal compressive force was 6139 ± 1708 N,

occurring at 91 degrees of knee flexion; whereas the maximal

compressive force for the knee extension exercise was 4598 ± 2546 N

(at 90 degrees knee flexion). During the closed kinetic chain

exercises, a posterior shear force (posterior cruciate ligament

stress) occurred throughout the range of motion, with the peak

occurring from 85 degrees to 105 degrees of knee flexion. An anterior

shear force (anterior cruciate ligament stress) was noted during open

kinetic chain knee extension from 40 degrees to full extension; a

peak force of 248 ± 259 N was noted at 14 degrees of knee flexion.

Electromyographic data indicated greater hamstring and quadriceps

muscle co-contraction during the squat compared with the other two

exercises.

During the leg press, the quadriceps muscle electromyographic

activity was approximately 39% to 52% of maximal velocity isometric

contraction; whereas hamstring muscle activity was minimal (12%

maximal velocity isometric contraction). This study demonstrated

significant differences in tibiofemoral forces and muscle activity

between the two closed kinetic chain exercises, and between the open

and closed kinetic chain exercises.

--------------------------

Pandy MG & Shelburne K Dependence of cruciate-ligament loading on

muscle forces and external load. J Biomech 1997 Oct; 30(10): 1015-

24

A sagittal-plane model of the knee is used to predict and explain the

relationships between the forces developed by the muscles, the

external loads applied to the leg, and the forces induced in the

cruciate ligaments during isometric exercises.

The geometry of the model bones is adapted from cadaver data. Eleven

elastic elements describe the geometric and mechanical properties of

the cruciate ligaments, the collateral ligaments, and the posterior

capsule. The model is actuated by 11 musculotendinous units, each

unit represented as a three-element muscle in series with tendon. For

isolated contractions of the quadriceps, ACL force increases as

quadriceps force increases for all flexion angles between 0 and 80

degrees; the ACL is unloaded at flexion angles greater than 80

degrees. When quadriceps force is held constant, ACL force decreases

monotonically as knee-flexion angle increases. The relationship

between ACL force, quadriceps force, and knee-flexion angle is

explained by the geometry of the knee-extensor mechanism and by the

changing orientation of the ACL in the sagittal plane.

For isolated contractions of the hamstrings, PCL force increases as

hamstrings force increases for all flexion angles greater than 10

degrees; the PCL is unloaded at flexion angles less than 10 degrees.

When hamstrings force is held constant, PCL force increases

monotonically with increasing knee flexion. The relationship between

PCL force, hamstrings force, and knee-flexion angle is explained by

the geometry of the hamstrings and by the changing orientation of the

PCL in the sagittal plane.

At nearly all knee-flexion angles, hamstrings co-contraction is an

effective means of reducing ACL force. Hamstrings co-contraction

cannot protect the ACL near full extension of the knee because these

muscles meet the tibia at small angles near full extension, and so

cannot apply a sufficiently large posterior shear force to the leg.

Moving the restraining force closer to the knee-flexion axis

decreases ACL force; varying the orientation of the restraining force

has only a small effect on cruciate-ligament loading.

-------------------------

Note what this next reference says about squats versus knee extension

exercises:

Yack HJ, C & Whieldon T Comparison of closed and open

kinetic chain exercise in the anterior cruciateligament-deficient

knee. Am J Sports Med 1993 Jan-Feb; 21(1): 49-54

The purpose of this study was to quantify the amount of anterior

tibial displacement occurring in anterior cruciate ligament-deficient

knees during two types of rehabilitation exercises: 1) resisted knee

extension, an open kinetic chain exercise; and 2) the parallel squat,

a closed kinetic chain exercise. An electrogoniometer system was

applied to the anterior cruciate ligament-deficient knee of 11

volunteers and to the uninvolved normal knee in 9 of these

volunteers. Anterior tibial displacement and the knee flexion angle

were measured during each exercise using matched quadriceps loads and

during the Lachman test.

The anterior cruciate ligament-deficient knee had significantly

greater anterior tibial displacement during extension from 64 degrees

to 10 degrees in the knee extension exercise as compared to the

parallel squat exercise. In addition, the amount of displacement

during the Lachman test was significantly less than in the knee

extension exercise, but significantly more than in the parallel squat

exercise. No significant differences were found between measurements

in the normal knee.

We concluded that the stress to the anterior cruciate ligament, as

indicated by anterior tibial displacement, is minimized by using the

parallel squat, a closed kinetic chain exercise, when compared to the

relative anterior tibial displacement during knee extension exercise.

------------------------

Note what this reference says about exercises, such as supine leg

curls, which significantly recruit gastrocnemius during

rehabilitation after knee injury. This information should be

carefully considered by any therapists who still insist on treating

cruciate ligament injuries with leg curls.

Durselen L, Claes L & Kiefer H The influence of muscle forces and

external loads on cruciate ligament strain. Am J Sports Med 1995

Jan-Feb; 23(1): 129-36

We know it is important to avoid excessive strain on reconstructed

ligaments, but we do not know how individual muscles affect cruciate

ligament strain. To answer this, we studied the effect of muscle

forces and external loads on cruciate ligament strain.

Nine cadaveric knee joints were tested in an apparatus that allowed

unconstrained knee joint motion. Quadriceps, hamstring, and

gastrocnemius muscle forces were simulated. Additionally, external

loads were applied such as varus-internal or valgus-external rotation

forces. Cruciate ligament strain was recorded at different knee

flexion angles. Activation of the gastrocnemius muscle significantly

strained the posterior cruciate ligament at flexion angles larger

than 40 degrees. Quadriceps muscle activation significantly strained

the anterior cruciate ligament when the knee was flexed 20 degrees to

60 degrees and reduced the strain on the posterior cruciate ligament

in the same flexion range. Activation of the hamstring muscles

strained the posterior cruciate ligament when the knee was flexed 70

degrees to 110 degrees. Combined varus and internal rotation forces

significantly increased anterior cruciate ligament strain throughout

the flexion range.

The results suggest that to minimize strain on the ligament after

posterior cruciate ligament surgery, strong gastrocnemius muscle

contractions should be avoided beyond 30 degrees of knee flexion. The

study also calls into question the use of vigorous quadriceps

exercises in the range of 20 degrees to 60 degrees of knee flexion

after anterior cruciate ligament reconstruction.

--------------------

Kurosawa H, Yamakoshi K, Yasuda K & Sasaki T Simultaneous

measurement of changes in length of the cruciate ligaments during

knee motion. Clin Orthop 1991 Apr; (265): 233-40

The changes in length of electrolyte-in-rubber strain-gauge

transducers implanted along the fibers of the anterior (ACL) and

posterior (PCL) cruciate ligaments of the human anatomic specimen

knees were measured simultaneously and continuously during knee

motion.

In unconstrained flexion and extension of the knee, all transducers

in the ACL showed the maximum shortening peak at about 30 degrees

flexion. After this, the length of the transducers in the anterior

bundle increased, whereas those in the posterior bundle remained

shortened. Transducers in the anterior and posterior bundles of the

PCL, on the other hand, showed maximum lengthening peaks at

approximately 50 degrees and 0 degrees flexion, respectively. The

middle bundle of the PCL showed a smaller change. When simulated

quadriceps forces were applied, the transducers in the ACL lengthened

and those in the PCL shortened. At more than 90 degrees, however, the

changes in length decreased. After cutting the ACL, the quadriceps

force increased the shortening of the PCL.

----------------------------------

This next study produced results which relate to the various tests

used medically for assessing knee ligament injury.

Veltri DM, Deng X, Torzilli P, Warren R & Maynard M The role of the

cruciate and posterolateral ligaments in stability of the knee. A

biomechanical study. Am J Sports Med 1995 Jul-Aug; 23(4): 436-43

The role of the posterolateral and cruciate ligaments in restraining

knee motion was studied in 11 human cadaveric knees. The

posterolateral ligaments sectioned included the lateral collateral

and arcuate ligaments, the popliteofibular ligament, and the

popliteal tendon attachment to the tibia.

Combined sectioning of the anterior cruciate and posterolateral

ligaments resulted in maximal increases in primary anterior and

posterior translations at 30 degrees of knee flexion. Primary varus,

primary internal, and coupled external rotation also increased and

were maximal at 30 degrees of knee flexion. Combined sectioning of

the posterior cruciate and posterolateral ligaments resulted in

increased primary posterior translation, primary varus and external

rotation, and coupled external rotation at all angles of knee

flexion.

Examination of the knee at 30 degrees and 90 degrees of knee flexion

can discriminate between combined posterior cruciate ligament and

posterolateral injury and isolated posterolateral injury. The

standard external rotation test performed at 30 degrees of knee

flexion may not be routinely reliable for detecting combined anterior

cruciate and posterolateral ligament injury. However, measurements of

primary anterior-posterior translation, primary varus rotation, and

coupled external rotation may be used to detect combined anterior

cruciate and posterolateral ligament injury.

-----------------------

Here is yet another reference which supports the use of squats in

knee rehabilitation.

More RC, Karras B, Neiman R, Fritschy D, Woo S & D

Hamstrings--an anterior cruciate ligament protagonist. An in vitro

study. Am J Sports Med 1993 Mar-Apr; 21(2): 231-7

A cadaveric model that incorporated quadriceps and hamstrings muscle

loads was developed to simulate the squat exercise. The addition of

hamstrings load affected knee kinematics in two ways.

1. Anterior tibial translation during flexion ( " femoral roll-back " )

was significantly reduced, and

2. Internal tibial rotation during flexion was reduced.

However, quadriceps force was unaffected by the addition of

hamstrings load. Thus, it seems likely that hamstrings muscle

activity that has been observed in vivo during a squat probably

functions synergistically with the anterior cruciate ligament to

provide anterior knee stability. After the ACL was sectioned,

anterior tibial translation was significantly increased during the

squat. The anterior cruciate ligament was then reconstructed using a

graft instrumented with a load cell. During passive motion, maximal

graft tension was at full extension. During simulated squat exercise,

the addition of hamstrings caused a significant decrease in graft

load. During the squat, maximal graft tension was at full extension,

and was equal to the graft tension at full passive extension. Thus,

the squat exercise may be useful in the early stages of anterior

cruciate ligament rehabilitation.

---------------------------

The following reference also supports the use of 'kinetic chain'

exercises (ones which involve all the joints of the lower extremity),

such as the squat, in knee rehabilitation. In addition, it proposes

that existing isokinetic and leg press machines be modified to make

them involve all joints more 'functionally' during rehabilitation.

Palmitier RA, An KN, SG, Chao EY Kinetic chain exercise in

knee rehabilitation. Sports Med 1991 Jun;11(6): 402-13

Rehabilitation is recognised as a critical component in the treatment

of the anterior cruciate ligament (ACL) injured athlete, and has been

the subject of intense research over the past decade. As a result,

sound scientific principles have been applied to this realm of sports

medicine, and have improved the outcome of both surgical and

nonsurgical treatment. Possibly the most intriguing of these

principles is the use of the kinetic chain concept in exercise

prescription following ACL reconstruction.

The hip, knee, and ankle joints when taken together, comprise the

lower extremity kinetic chain. Kinetic chain exercises like the squat

recruit all 3 links in unison while exercises such as seated

quadriceps extensions isolate one link of the chain. Biomechanical

assessment with force diagrams reveals that ACL strain is reduced

during kinetic chain exercise by virtue of the axial orientation of

the applied load and muscular co-contraction. Additionally, kinetic

chain exercise through recruitment of all hip, knee, and ankle

extensors in synchrony takes advantage of specificity of training

principles. More importantly, however, it is the only way to

reproduce the concurrent shift of 'antagonistic' biarticular muscle

groups that occurs during simultaneous hip, knee, and ankle

extension. Incoordination of the concurrent shift fostered by

exercising each muscle group in isolation may ultimately hamper

complete recovery.

Modifying present day leg press and isokinetic equipment will allow

clinicians to make better use of kinetic chain exercise and allow

safe isokinetic testing of the ACL reconstructed knee. Reconstruction

of the ACL with a strong well placed graft to restore joint

kinematics, followed by scientifically sound rehabilitation to

improve dynamic control of tibial translation, will improve the

outcome after ACL injury.

-------------------------

Itoh H, Ichihashi N, Maruyama T, Kurosaka M & Hirohata K Weakness

of thigh muscles in individuals sustaining anterior cruciate ligament

injury. Kobe J Med Sci 1992 Apr; 38(2): 93-107

The purpose of this study was to assess the quadriceps and hamstrings

muscle strength deficits at different knee flexion angles (30 degrees

and 60 degrees) in individuals who had sustained anterior cruciate

ligament (ACL) injury, who had never had thigh muscle strengthening

exercise. Isometric (0 degree/sec) and isokinetic (60 degrees/sec and

180 degrees/sec) torque measurements were performed on sixty-six

patients (29 males and 37 females) with chronic ACL insufficiency.

Significant strength deficits of the quadriceps and hamstrings

muscles in injured knees were found at both 30 degrees and 60 degrees

of knee flexion in three testing conditions (0 degree/sec, 60

degrees/sec, and 180 degrees/sec).

In the comparison of torque production at 30 degrees and 60 degrees

knee flexion angles, for the male group, significantly greater

deficits of the quadriceps torque were found at 60 degrees knee

flexion than at 30 degrees knee flexion in the isometric and

isokinetic 60 degrees/sec testing modes.

For the female group, significantly greater deficit of the quadriceps

torque was found at 60 degrees knee flexion than at 30 degrees knee

flexion only in isokinetic 60 degrees/sec. There was no significant

difference of the hamstrings torque deficit between 30 degrees and 60

degrees knee flexion in any testing modes.

In the comparison of isometric and two isokinetic testing modes (60

degrees/sec and 180 degrees/sec), for the male group, significantly

greater deficits of the quadriceps torque were found at 30 degrees

knee flexion in isokinetic 180 degrees/sec and at 60 degrees knee

flexion in isokinetic 60 degrees/sec as compared to the isometric

test. There was no statistical difference in the hamstrings torque

values.

For the female group, significantly greater deficits of the

quadriceps and hamstrings torque were found at 30 degrees knee

flexion in isokinetic 60 degrees/sec and at 60 degrees in isokinetic

60 degrees/sec and 180 degrees/sec as compared to the isometric test.

It was concluded that long lasting instability without any muscle

exercises may result in the weakness of not only the quadriceps

muscle but also even hamstrings muscle, and that the quadriceps

strength might be more susceptible to ACL insufficiency at 60 degrees

knee flexion angle than at 30 degrees knee flexion angle, whereas,

the hamstrings did not show any angular-specific torque deficits.

These findings might resulted from characteristics of torque curves

of the quadriceps and hamstrings muscles.

---------------------------

Yet another article which supports the use of the squat, rather than

knee extensions, during ACL rehabilitation.

Toutoungi D, Lu TW, Leardini A, Catani F & O'Connor JJ Cruciate

ligament forces in the human knee during rehabilitation exercises.

Clin Biomech (Bristol, Avon) 2000 Mar; 15(3):176-87

OBJECTIVE: To determine the cruciate ligament forces occurring during

typical rehabilitation exercises.Design. A combination of non-

invasive measurements with mathematical modelling of the lower

limb.Background. Direct measurement of ligament forces has not yet

been successful in vivo in humans. A promising alternative is to

calculate the forces mathematically. METHODS: Sixteen subjects

performed isometric and isokinetic or squat exercises while the

external forces and limb kinematics were measured. Internal forces

were calculated using a geometrical model of the lower limb and

the " dynamically determinate one-sided constraint " analysis

procedure.

RESULTS: During isokinetic/isometric extension, peak anterior

cruciate ligament forces, occurring at knee angles of 35-40 degrees,

may reach 0.55x bodyweight. Peak posterior cruciate ligament forces

are lower and occur around 90 degrees. During isokinetic/isometric

flexion, peak posterior cruciate forces, which occur around 90

degrees, may exceed 4x bodyweight; the anterior cruciate is not

loaded. During squats, the anterior cruciate is lightly loaded at

knee angles up to 50 degrees, after which the posterior cruciate is

loaded. Peak posterior cruciate forces occur near the lowest point of

the squat and may reach 3.5x bodyweight.

CONCLUSIONS: For anterior cruciate injuries, squats should be safer

than isokinetic or isometric extension for quadriceps strengthening,

though isokinetic or isometric flexion may safely be used for

hamstrings strengthening. For posterior cruciate injuries, isokinetic

extension at knee angles less than 70 degrees should be safe but

isokinetic flexion and deep squats should be avoided until healing is

well-advanced. RELEVANCE: Good rehabilitation is vital for a

successful outcome to cruciate ligament injuries. Knowledge of

ligament forces can aid the physician in the design of improved

rehabilitation protocols.

[Guest guest]

Dear Bill;

I am not disagreeing with you at all, but I will point out that Mr.

Cartwright said he has been doing leg extensions with no problems and squats

provided problems... so, that being said that is the basis for my

statement.

Second, when I had my car accident I did a lot of walking lunges... looks

weird as hell, but burns nicely and is not as ballistic as regular lunges.

Basically you do the lunges in a parade march style.... you start like you

would a normal lunge and place one foot forward (left). instead of

returning ot the original position, you bring the other foot(right) to meet

the first foot. Now, you go again. But you lead with the right, and then

meet with the left. Then bring the left forward and meet with the right...

then right forward and meet with the left... and so on... it'll look like a

wedding or graduation march... but with a big stride and the weight bar on

your upper back :-)

Anyway, these helped me tremendously, I wish I had mentioned them earlier,

but I had forgotten.

BTW - I read the first three studies, and I don't argue with any of the

statements or findings.

But I still think that Mr. Cartwright would benefit by removing regular

squats from his workout... amybe he should start with saddle squats (they

are sometimes called sissy squats, a term I loath, but that's what they are

called... a detail of them can be found on page 472 of the Encyclopedia of

Modern Body Building by Schwarzenegger... I hate this book because a lot of

the knowledge provided is so unrealistic for the average lifter, but the

detail it show regarding how exercises are done and the execution

information is very valueable. I would nefver recommend anyone do the

workouts unless they are steroided out freaks looking to be more freakish

and looking to injure themselves down the road. You have no time to rest in

what this book proposes.. utterly preposterous.

Best regards,

[Guest guest]

Ah, what Bill said. Because, Bill knows SQUATS!!!!!

Bill, the King of Squats, I salute you!!!!

I hate leg extentions, give me squats or give me the darn old leg

press. I've had reconstruction on my left knee. No fun.

OK, I'm not quite myself today, but y'all get my point.

MP

[Guest guest]

Re: Re: Did my first squats - Ooww, questions

>can I be Duke of Squats?

>

>8^)

>

>

Sure... but I can think of a few better nicknames for you.

Lana

[Guest guest]

> can I be Duke of Squats?

>

> 8^)

The Muscle Fairy has officially declared, that from this moment on,

Brett , is to be known as:

The Duke of Squats

MP

[Guest guest]

Pete,

It sure sounds like you are disagreeing with me. You must be

disagreeing with me, cause im the only one here =) <hehe>just kiddin,

BTW welcome to the group, I just disagreed with the Leg Extension

instead of the Squat reference, 90% of the problems people have with

squatting is their form. I think Joe is doin the right thing starting

with really light weight, form has to be perfect or you can get hurt

easily, he might also benefit from having someone show him proper

technique and critique his form.

Walking lunges, heard they are awesome Ronnie does them up

and down a football field with like 250-300 lbs, I have enough

problem with regular lunges. =)

I agree with you about Arnolds book (can you believe that),Arnolds

book should come with your first cycle of Juice and a little pamphlet

that says without this wonder of modern science you will hurt

yourself more than help yourself on my program.

like I said Welcome to the group, and I am sure we will disagree

again, I look forward to it =)

Bill

> Dear Bill;

> I am not disagreeing with you at all, but I will point out that Mr.

> Cartwright said he has been doing leg extensions with no problems

and squats

> provided problems... so, that being said that is the basis for my

> statement.

>

> Second, when I had my car accident I did a lot of walking lunges...

looks

> weird as hell, but burns nicely and is not as ballistic as regular

lunges.

> Basically you do the lunges in a parade march style.... you start

like you

> would a normal lunge and place one foot forward (left). instead of

> returning ot the original position, you bring the other foot(right)

to meet

> the first foot. Now, you go again. But you lead with the right,

and then

> meet with the left. Then bring the left forward and meet with the

right...

> then right forward and meet with the left... and so on... it'll

look like a

> wedding or graduation march... but with a big stride and the weight

bar on

> your upper back :-)

>

> Anyway, these helped me tremendously, I wish I had mentioned them

earlier,

> but I had forgotten.

>

> BTW - I read the first three studies, and I don't argue with any of

the

> statements or findings.

>

> But I still think that Mr. Cartwright would benefit by removing

regular

> squats from his workout... amybe he should start with saddle squats

(they

> are sometimes called sissy squats, a term I loath, but that's what

they are

> called... a detail of them can be found on page 472 of the

Encyclopedia of

> Modern Body Building by Schwarzenegger... I hate this book because

a lot of

> the knowledge provided is so unrealistic for the average lifter,

but the

> detail it show regarding how exercises are done and the execution

> information is very valueable. I would nefver recommend anyone do

the

> workouts unless they are steroided out freaks looking to be more

freakish

> and looking to injure themselves down the road. You have no time

to rest in

> what this book proposes.. utterly preposterous.

>

> Best regards,

>

[Guest guest]

Pete,

It sure sounds like you are disagreeing with me. You must be

disagreeing with me, cause im the only one here =) <hehe>just kiddin,

BTW welcome to the group, I just disagreed with the Leg Extension

instead of the Squat reference, 90% of the problems people have with

squatting is their form. I think Joe is doin the right thing starting

with really light weight, form has to be perfect or you can get hurt

easily, he might also benefit from having someone show him proper

technique and critique his form.

Walking lunges, heard they are awesome Ronnie does them up

and down a football field with like 250-300 lbs, I have enough

problem with regular lunges. =)

I agree with you about Arnolds book (can you believe that),Arnolds

book should come with your first cycle of Juice and a little pamphlet

that says without this wonder of modern science you will hurt

yourself more than help yourself on my program.

like I said Welcome to the group, and I am sure we will disagree

again, I look forward to it =)

Bill

> Dear Bill;

> I am not disagreeing with you at all, but I will point out that Mr.

> Cartwright said he has been doing leg extensions with no problems

and squats

> provided problems... so, that being said that is the basis for my

> statement.

>

> Second, when I had my car accident I did a lot of walking lunges...

looks

> weird as hell, but burns nicely and is not as ballistic as regular

lunges.

> Basically you do the lunges in a parade march style.... you start

like you

> would a normal lunge and place one foot forward (left). instead of

> returning ot the original position, you bring the other foot(right)

to meet

> the first foot. Now, you go again. But you lead with the right,

and then

> meet with the left. Then bring the left forward and meet with the

right...

> then right forward and meet with the left... and so on... it'll

look like a

> wedding or graduation march... but with a big stride and the weight

bar on

> your upper back :-)

>

> Anyway, these helped me tremendously, I wish I had mentioned them

earlier,

> but I had forgotten.

>

> BTW - I read the first three studies, and I don't argue with any of

the

> statements or findings.

>

> But I still think that Mr. Cartwright would benefit by removing

regular

> squats from his workout... amybe he should start with saddle squats

(they

> are sometimes called sissy squats, a term I loath, but that's what

they are

> called... a detail of them can be found on page 472 of the

Encyclopedia of

> Modern Body Building by Schwarzenegger... I hate this book because

a lot of

> the knowledge provided is so unrealistic for the average lifter,

but the

> detail it show regarding how exercises are done and the execution

> information is very valueable. I would nefver recommend anyone do

the

> workouts unless they are steroided out freaks looking to be more

freakish

> and looking to injure themselves down the road. You have no time

to rest in

> what this book proposes.. utterly preposterous.

>

> Best regards,

>

[Guest guest]

>Princess of Pleasure Princeciples.... nahh that would be 'suggestive'.

Oh I'm already called that.. but that's another list