Re: Mom's Dairy

[Guest guest]

> Are you joking woman????  You really do not think that the FDA has not

> wanted to shut down every raw dairy in the united states?

Don't you think that if they really wanted to shut all of them down,

they could? And it wouldn't be one-by-one?

> If you do not support raw milk and if you do not support traditional foods,

> why are you here?  Just to stir poop?

Let me get this straight: In order to be a part of this group, one

must want to drink raw milk from a dairy that potentially has

contaminated milk, because otherwise you're not supporting the

movement?

I'm not persecuting anyone. I'm not saying SHUT THEM DOWN. I'm saying

that if the response is, " Oh, goodness, we should go buy their milk

and drink it! " it may not be the smartest response ever. There are

ways to show support without potentially impacting your own health.

- Tipper

[Guest guest]

here is more on this from Gumpert

http://tinyurl.com/37gtfnr

>

> > Are you joking woman????  You really do not think that the FDA has not

> > wanted to shut down every raw dairy in the united states?

>

> Don't you think that if they really wanted to shut all of them down,

> they could? And it wouldn't be one-by-one?

>

> > If you do not support raw milk and if you do not support traditional foods,

> > why are you here?  Just to stir poop?

>

> Let me get this straight: In order to be a part of this group, one

> must want to drink raw milk from a dairy that potentially has

> contaminated milk, because otherwise you're not supporting the

> movement?

>

> I'm not persecuting anyone. I'm not saying SHUT THEM DOWN. I'm saying

> that if the response is, " Oh, goodness, we should go buy their milk

> and drink it! " it may not be the smartest response ever. There are

> ways to show support without potentially impacting your own health.

>

> - Tipper

>

[Guest guest]

Tipper -- what exactly are you saying then?

The facts as I understand them:

-There are four confirmed cases of e-coli in MN.

-The link (read again...link) to Hartmann dairy is only confirmed in SOME of

the cases.

-All four cases (according to the media) have the same STRAND of e-coli (which

is like dna, and mutates on a regular basis). Based on my research, it is highly

improbable that you could have an outbreak from more than one source with the

same mutation.

Common sense dictates that, while, it is possible the family member who consumed

the real milk didn't get sick from e-coli, but may, as Tipper has proposed,

didn't wash their hands and passed it on to a toddler, it is much more likely

that there is a common contaminant between all four cases. This, unfortunately,

is not being researched (or at least reported) because the government agency

stopped when they heard the words 'real milk'.

I don't think that anyone is taking this lightly. I find this group to be

well-informed and educated on the many nuances of traditional foods. I think

that many (like me) have applied common sense to the facts as reported, their

distrust of the media and their belief in the practices of the farmers they

support and decided that they are safe.

[Guest guest]

> Tipper --  what exactly are you saying then?

What do you think I'm saying?

>  -The link (read again...link) to Hartmann dairy is only confirmed in SOME of

the cases.

As I understand it, three people drank the raw milk directly, and one

did not (meaning they caught it from someone else who consumed milk).

Linked means just that - linked. As in a chain. As in, they drank it,

they became sick.

> Common sense dictates that, while, it is possible the family member who

consumed the real milk didn't get sick from e-coli, but may, as Tipper has

proposed, didn't wash their hands and passed it on to a toddler, it is much more

likely that there is a common contaminant between all four cases. This,

unfortunately, is not being researched (or at least reported) because the

government agency stopped when they heard the words 'real milk'.

First, you misunderstand my illustration. The fourth person who did

not drink the milk probably became sick from someone who did. Thus,

the same strain of E. coli, just not *directly* from the same source.

Second, wouldn't common sense dictate that because they consumed

contaminated raw milk from the same source, that's the culprit?

- Tipper

[Guest guest]

Thanks Carolyn for the link to The Complete Patient! Great blog!

> >

> > > Are you joking woman????  You really do not think that the FDA has not

> > > wanted to shut down every raw dairy in the united states?

> >

> > Don't you think that if they really wanted to shut all of them down,

> > they could? And it wouldn't be one-by-one?

> >

> > > If you do not support raw milk and if you do not support traditional

foods,

> > > why are you here?  Just to stir poop?

> >

> > Let me get this straight: In order to be a part of this group, one

> > must want to drink raw milk from a dairy that potentially has

> > contaminated milk, because otherwise you're not supporting the

> > movement?

> >

> > I'm not persecuting anyone. I'm not saying SHUT THEM DOWN. I'm saying

> > that if the response is, " Oh, goodness, we should go buy their milk

> > and drink it! " it may not be the smartest response ever. There are

> > ways to show support without potentially impacting your own health.

> >

> > - Tipper

> >

>

[Guest guest]

I think that is a great suggestion! If the Hartmanns would be up for it and

anyone else is going, I would like to go, as well. I have never been to the

farm and would like to start ordering milk again. I don't feel like I have all

of the information to make any informed decisions, so I hope testing is done and

it is determined where the source of the bacteria is. This is my first post, so

I hope I did this right!

Kari

Re: Mom's Dairy

Sounds like the best thing would be to make a Memorial Day trip to the farm and

buy as much as possible!

Kathy

[Guest guest]

I will be praying hard! I agree with you, Becca, that we all need to band

together to help out the Hartmanns, in whatever way we can. Everyone please

pass on ideas.

Kari

Re: Mom's Dairy

All~~~

I pasted the email response from Diane below my message here. Additionally,

when I first heard about this last night, gut instinct was that this is a

set-up (I'm SURE that I don't stand alone in that feeling!). Given the fact

that the Hartmann's are so keenly aware of how they're being watched, they

wouldn't have been careless on any level at any time. While I don't know

what the next steps are to take to aid them in this moment, let's get ready

to back them up to cover their needs and more as the story unfolds. This is

our opportunity to give back as a community and a TFMN family. The

Hartmann's are one of the most giving groups of people that I personally

know. Besides nourishing so many families with their amazing food, each of

them have laid down so much of themselves to come to the aid of others

without expecting anything in return. came to the aid of the Warehouse

multiple times and I could go on and on about his generosity alone. Let's

all be a united front for them...and if you pray, PRAY NOW AND PRAY HARD!

Becca

Hartmann's Response:

" Not sure where to begin. We have had the greatest fear of ours happen.

There is no backing for the shut down of our farm. They claim the problem

started with our milk but no tests confirm that. We know 2 of the families

and have talked to them. The ill children do not drink our milk. Many

sample were taken at the farm Wednesday.

If there was a problem with the milk it would not keep more than 4-5 days.

This was the only way for the Dept of Agriculture to come on our farm. They

have tagged all of our products, not to be taken from the premises.

There will be no delivery today, not sure about the next week. This was

also done prior to a holiday to make it difficult to get our own samples

done and talk to people who can assist with this.

Needless to say, this will be a financial strain on us.

You are always welcome to come to the farm, as that is allowable according

to the Dept. of Ag.

Thank you for your understanding and support,

The Hartmann's "

[Guest guest]

It would be a good idea for everyone to take a deep breath. Even if people

don't agree with you, it does no good to alienate them, just be calm, patient

and level intelligent replies in their direction.

, the FDA is in fact a corrupt, predatory agency owned by big business.

All it takes is a sober look at their history of actions to see that they

protect big businesses with their revolving door policy and continually assault

the small farmer. That is fact, not opinion. This holds true for virtually all

government agencies. That is why we fight a ludicrous drug war, why we have

resorted to torture, why we are constantly sacrificing ever more freedom in the

pursuit of security (our security is only in jeopardy because of blow-back from

our unconstitutional and foolhardy history of a meddling foreign policy), why we

have a Federal (not a government agency) Reserve (there are NO reserves) System

that continually robs us blind through inflation and operates with absolutely NO

oversight whatsoever (and benefits only the government and a select few in the

banking business), something that other unconstitutional agencies such as the

CIA can't even boast. That is why we have a standing army, and why we have the

overt taxes we do and why this country does not even remotely resemble the

lesser evil our forefathers had in mind. The government needs no defense from

anyone, it only needs to be whittled back to it's absolute necessities and

nothing more.

Furthermore the topic of discussion of this thread is moot, it is so because it

revolves around germ theory which is based on terrible science and makes

absolutely no sense whatsoever. Much more rational is the idea that all microbes

serve a purpose and act as nature's janitor's. The so called " pathogens " are

activated when a system sends out signals that cleanup is needed. In other words

the victims of this " outbreak " were susceptible for a reason. Typically it is

emotional stress, pollution, disagreeable food (meaning garbage food or even

good food that is incompatible with one's genetics), or chemical toxins or any

combination thereof over an extended period of time that cause these sorts of

things to happen. The typical person, regardless of culture eats far to much

sugar and cooked foods, which are eternally taxing on the system. Refined sugar

is essentially poison to the body and cooked foods require that the body be

sapped of energy by producing enzymes that would otherwise be included in the

foods themselves. I've been consuming raw meats (especially organs from pigs,

lamb, cow, chickens, turkey, fish, lobster, crabs, shrimp, oyster, mussel, clams

and even snake)in great quantities for over 2 years now. In that time my health

has been restored to the best it's been since I was probably 10 yrs old. I'm no

exception, Sheri above, when she mentioned the work of Aajonus is one example

and if you were to run a google search many more would come to bear. If germ

theory held any water then all animals in nature ought to drop dead shortly

after birth, since they drink from parasite infested waters, consume feces and

raw meat. But the fact is, typically as long as they maintain a diet of life

giving foods and practice other instinctual habits passed down through

generations of ancestors they are far healthier and free of degenerative

diseases that most people in the " germ warfare " zone of civilization will ever

be. What the victims of " food poisoning " ought to do instead of sacrificing

themselves on the alter of mainstream medicine is to stay home, maximize their

intake of raw fats like cream (cream from MOM's dairy will do just fine!),

butter, avocado, coconut, egg yolks, and organ meats as well as some fermented

cod or skate liver oil, along with plenty of fresh green juices (parsley,

cilantro, celery, spinach, dandelions, basil, peppers, cucumber, broccoli,

cabbage etc and a small amount of beet and carrot proportionately) The juice is

to clean out the system, and the fats are to rebuild and replace what the e.coli

is consuming. Fermented foods can be added as necessary. Instead, these people

will likely allow mainstream doctors to assault their bodies with poisonous

drugs which will only make things worse and help to cause permanent damage to

their systems.

As for the members of this board, they're comprised of some of the most

intelligent people this country has to offer, mostly. People who have spurned

food fads and bad science and instead of relying on ineffective laboratory

studies, have turned their eyes towards models of success, namely the

traditional diets and collective wisdom of thousands of generations of millions

if not billions of " primitive " peoples. Why we call these people primitive when

they, without any of our modern technology maintained pristine, optimum health

does not make rational sense. The members of this board, have also seen through

their own experiences the folly of mainstream convention and government

sponsored " science " They have woken up and said, the majority beliefs are wrong

and there is a better way. And against the odds, because most people live and

act unconsciously have become more sentient than the typical person. They are

biased towards their own kind (MOM's Dairy) for good reason, and that is because

MOM's apparently operates the way a dairy should, with grass fed, organic,

hormone and antibiotic free animals. Therefore, even IF the " contamination " did

come from MOM's it is through no fault of there own, it is just, rightly, a

natural part of the endeavor.

The FDA does not seek to attack all farmers at once because they are not

complete fools. Wholesale persecution of every known raw milk dairy would simply

be asking the pro raw milk population to unite and that is what causes real

change, something the FDA desires the complete opposite of.

Level, courteous discourse is what we should all strive to maintain. Using fact

based statements to prove a point does far more for one's cause than resorting

to aggression, no matter how tempted or frustrated you become. We have truth and

all that is good on our side.

[Guest guest]

> Level, courteous discourse is what we should all strive to maintain. Using

fact based statements to prove a point does far more for one's cause than

resorting to aggression, no matter how tempted or frustrated you become. We have

truth and all that is good on our side.

>

Well said. In other words, squabbling like this is feeding into the fear that

the FDA and others want to create.

~Joe

[Guest guest]

>   In other words the victims of this " outbreak " were susceptible for a reason.

" Germ theory " doesn't mean that " if you come into contact with a

pathogen, you get sick. " We have immune systems. You're right, the

people who got sick from this particular pathogen did so for a reason

(and not necessarily because their diet is what you would call

inferior).

> Therefore, even IF the " contamination " did come from MOM's it is through no

fault of there own, it is just, rightly, a natural part of the endeavor.

Would you say the same for a factory farm that puts out E. coli

contaminated food? After all, the bacteria would just be there as part

of the endeavor, and if you get sick, it's your own fault because

you're not eating/living the way you should. Did I get that right?

Look, all I am saying is that if you guys go out to the farm and buy

raw milk before the source of contamination, assuming there is one, is

discovered, and you get sick, or you end up passing E. coli through

your system without getting sick but someone else who doesn't have the

immune system you do comes into contact with it and *they* get sick,

you are going to make things much, much worse for the Hartmanns. Every

person who ends up in the hospital is a mark against them. If someone

dies, they could go to *jail*. They will most certainly be sued in

that case. You think you're acting in their best interests to keep

purchasing in using their products before this is sorted out, but you

are not, because you are taking the risk of destroying their farm and

family forever.

> The FDA does not seek to attack all farmers at once because they are not

complete fools. Wholesale persecution of every known raw milk dairy would simply

be asking the pro raw milk population to unite and that is what causes real

change, something the FDA desires the complete opposite of.

You're saying that with all of the raw milk activism and

letter-writing campaigns, the pro-raw milk population is not united? I

was under the impression that you were already trying to create

change.

- Tipper

[Guest guest]

Tipper,

What other ways would you recommend that we show our support to MOMs Dairy?

Keep in mind, they rely completely on direct sales and have perishable products.

Kathy

[Guest guest]

> " Germ theory " doesn't mean that " if you come into contact with a

> pathogen, you get sick. " We have immune systems. You're right, the

> people who got sick from this particular pathogen did so for a reason

> (and not necessarily because their diet is what you would call

> inferior).

I Disagree, that is essentially what germ theory maintains. That certain

microorganisms are bad and make you sick, and others are good and contribute to

your well being. Instead, it's far more likely that all microorganisms have

their purpose, and they only do bad things when the surrounding environment

initiates their growth. That is why mainstream thought says that pasteurization

kills bad bacteria and leaves good bacteria unharmed, which if course is

poppycock.

> Would you say the same for a factory farm that puts out E. coli

> contaminated food? After all, the bacteria would just be there as part

> of the endeavor, and if you get sick, it's your own fault because

> you're not eating/living the way you should. Did I get that right?

Well, more or less, yes. For starters most of those cows are feedlot animals

living ankle deep in their own feces, being fed continuous antibiotics and

grains only. Which creates superbugs (though that is irrelevant because the bugs

are not the problem, at least if you're living healthfully), and creates

acidosis in the rumen giving these bugs a nice place to grow unchecked. It is

ethically, economically and environmentally wrong and unhealthy to consume these

animals. Furthermore this meat is laden with unbalanced fats, mostly

inflammatory omega-6's. And of course there are the growth hormones which cause

untold harm in those who consume the meat. So, yes, you are spot on.

> Look, all I am saying is that if you guys go out to the farm and buy

> raw milk before the source of contamination, assuming there is one, is

> discovered, and you get sick, or you end up passing E. coli through

> your system without getting sick but someone else who doesn't have the

> immune system you do comes into contact with it and *they* get sick,

I'm struggling to find the logic here. You're saying that because there are

germs in the world, we should not do anything that might possibly, however

remote the chances of that are, cause others to get sick. By that logic you

would not want to take a walk in the park because you might step in some

" contaminated " feces unwittingly and track it everywhere you go. Or that you

shouldn't touch door handles anywhere because you might pick up a bug and spread

it. Or that you should wear rubber gloves every time you have contact with cash

because that has undoubtedly passed through some less than savory hands,

including but not limited to people using them as straws to snort cocaine.

> you are going to make things much, much worse for the Hartmanns. Every

> person who ends up in the hospital is a mark against them. If someone

> dies, they could go to *jail*. They will most certainly be sued in

> that case.

Yes it rather is a pity that we have left personal responsibility in the dust in

favor of a litigious society that sues at the drop of a hat. However, if the

Hartman's are willing to sell, and people are willing to buy then the show ought

go on.

>You think you're acting in their best interests to keep

> purchasing in using their products before this is sorted out, but you

> are not, because you are taking the risk of destroying their farm and

> family forever.

Again, if the Hartman's are willing to sell, and operating their dairy properly,

there is not else to be done.

> You're saying that with all of the raw milk activism and

> letter-writing campaigns, the pro-raw milk population is not united? I

> was under the impression that you were already trying to create

> change.

>

What you see of raw milk activism is but a drop in the bucket compared to what

would happen if the FDA attacked full throttle. It would be a revolt because

they would be so overtly over stepping their bounds it would incite the full

fury of the nation that is currently kept at bay by pathetic raw milk

legislation that passifies the public just enough. The raw milk movement is

mostly cellular, with people with people uniting in their own states, but an

entire united nation, marching on washington would be another thing entirely.

And it's likely that is exactly what would happen, as well as an improvement in

the underground network of real milk. Like with drugs, gambling, prostitution,

etc where there is great demand, the market can NOT be quelled. Incidentally

that is why the drug war is such a joke. Moral and lifestyle choices, where they

do not directly harm others can not be enforced.

[Guest guest]

The word germ is being mis-used to describe microbes and bacteria that are

accused of being responsible or causative of

disease. Germ actually means first stage of life, ovary or seed-bud of a plant,

origin, first principle; that from

which anything springs.

So that is the first deception.

Secondly there are two types of bacteria that exist in all life, digestive and

janitorial. The purpose they serve is

to either help us digest our foods and break it into nutrient components for the

body to use or they are janitorial and

consume dead and toxic cell waste.

The only type of bacteria that can be harmful are those which have been bred in

a lab on toxic substances, or those

which feed on toxic foods in our body. (all bacteria food illness is caused by

cooked or pasteurized food) because their

excrement will be toxic.

The other misnomer is what is often described as the immune system. It should

be more properly described as toxic load

limit.

Our bodies were not created to receive chemical poisons. We receive these from

vaccines, environment, medications,

diet and other lifestyle habits. For example, science has discovered toxic

byproducts in cooked food. In cooked meat

you have heterocyclic amines which are known carcinogens. There are also lipid

peroxides from cooked fats and advanced

glycation end products from cooked carbs. If you add chemical fertilizers and

preservatives, you have increased the

toxicity of that food tremendously. So just from diet alone, one can be

overloading the body's toxic load limit.

The greater one's toxic load is without the proper nutrients in the body to

detoxify and build healthy cells will

determine who will become diseased. Colds and flu are the body's natural way of

cleansing. Therefore to stop the

symptoms of such detoxes by using poisonous medications only adds to the toxic

load of the body. The body must store

and isolate these substances in order to keep you alive. If all of the fatty

areas in the body including organs and

glands are saturated with poison and toxic dead cells, then the body will build

tumors (additional storage space).

If you are interested in learning more and understanding the true purpose of

bacteria's role in our lives, I suggest

reading " Fear of The Invisible " by Janie .

_____

From: trad-foods-MN [mailto:trad-foods-MN ] On

Behalf Of ryan2645

Sent: Friday, May 28, 2010 10:02 AM

To: trad-foods-MN

Subject: Re: Mom's Dairy

> " Germ theory " doesn't mean that " if you come into contact with a

> pathogen, you get sick. " We have immune systems. You're right, the

> people who got sick from this particular pathogen did so for a reason

> (and not necessarily because their diet is what you would call

> inferior).

I Disagree, that is essentially what germ theory maintains. That certain

microorganisms are bad and make you sick, and

others are good and contribute to your well being. Instead, it's far more likely

that all microorganisms have their

purpose, and they only do bad things when the surrounding environment initiates

their growth. That is why mainstream

thought says that pasteurization kills bad bacteria and leaves good bacteria

unharmed, which if course is poppycock.

> Would you say the same for a factory farm that puts out E. coli

> contaminated food? After all, the bacteria would just be there as part

> of the endeavor, and if you get sick, it's your own fault because

> you're not eating/living the way you should. Did I get that right?

Well, more or less, yes. For starters most of those cows are feedlot animals

living ankle deep in their own feces, being

fed continuous antibiotics and grains only. Which creates superbugs (though that

is irrelevant because the bugs are not

the problem, at least if you're living healthfully), and creates acidosis in the

rumen giving these bugs a nice place to

grow unchecked. It is ethically, economically and environmentally wrong and

unhealthy to consume these animals.

Furthermore this meat is laden with unbalanced fats, mostly inflammatory

omega-6's. And of course there are the growth

hormones which cause untold harm in those who consume the meat. So, yes, you are

spot on.

> Look, all I am saying is that if you guys go out to the farm and buy

> raw milk before the source of contamination, assuming there is one, is

> discovered, and you get sick, or you end up passing E. coli through

> your system without getting sick but someone else who doesn't have the

> immune system you do comes into contact with it and *they* get sick,

I'm struggling to find the logic here. You're saying that because there are

germs in the world, we should not do

anything that might possibly, however remote the chances of that are, cause

others to get sick. By that logic you would

not want to take a walk in the park because you might step in some

" contaminated " feces unwittingly and track it

everywhere you go. Or that you shouldn't touch door handles anywhere because you

might pick up a bug and spread it. Or

that you should wear rubber gloves every time you have contact with cash because

that has undoubtedly passed through

some less than savory hands, including but not limited to people using them as

straws to snort cocaine.

> you are going to make things much, much worse for the Hartmanns. Every

> person who ends up in the hospital is a mark against them. If someone

> dies, they could go to *jail*. They will most certainly be sued in

> that case.

Yes it rather is a pity that we have left personal responsibility in the dust in

favor of a litigious society that sues

at the drop of a hat. However, if the Hartman's are willing to sell, and people

are willing to buy then the show ought

go on.

>You think you're acting in their best interests to keep

> purchasing in using their products before this is sorted out, but you

> are not, because you are taking the risk of destroying their farm and

> family forever.

Again, if the Hartman's are willing to sell, and operating their dairy properly,

there is not else to be done.

> You're saying that with all of the raw milk activism and

> letter-writing campaigns, the pro-raw milk population is not united? I

> was under the impression that you were already trying to create

> change.

>

What you see of raw milk activism is but a drop in the bucket compared to what

would happen if the FDA attacked full

throttle. It would be a revolt because they would be so overtly over stepping

their bounds it would incite the full fury

of the nation that is currently kept at bay by pathetic raw milk legislation

that passifies the public just enough. The

raw milk movement is mostly cellular, with people with people uniting in their

own states, but an entire united nation,

marching on washington would be another thing entirely. And it's likely that is

exactly what would happen, as well as an

improvement in the underground network of real milk. Like with drugs, gambling,

prostitution, etc where there is great

demand, the market can NOT be quelled. Incidentally that is why the drug war is

such a joke. Moral and lifestyle

choices, where they do not directly harm others can not be enforced.

[Guest guest]

It is not my board and I do not make the rules, but I have to question the

reason you are here since you seem to just want to stir poop and yes, you

are persecuting the Hartmans, The star has come to the conclusion that the

hartmans milk made people ill and there is not enough logical evidence to

state that yet, and you are happy to join on that band wagon and sling crap

all over the place. So yes, I am questioning your involvement in this group

and wonder why you are here. The Hennepin county prosecutor dismissed

pressing charges. Why do you think that is? Let me give you a hint. THERE

IS NOT PROOF, AND THE EVIDENCE IS WEAK AT BEST. That is not blind faith,

that is using ones brain and logical reason. So tell me, do you work for

the star, FDA, the health department, Monsanto???????

Carol

[Guest guest]

> So tell me, do you work for

> the star, FDA, the health department, Monsanto???????

>

> Carol

My goodness. If you look at Tipper's comment history you'd see that she's here

for resources about purchasing and making whole foods and whole food products.

I can't understand why anything she has said could be interpreted as attacking

the farm in question. Entertaining the idea that a farm MIGHT have been affected

by some type of contamination is not a personal attack. Nor is suggesting that

it MIGHT be wise to wait for more information before buying and eating as much

of the farm's products as possible.

YOU don't need to listen to her or follow her advice, of course. But some on

this board might find her perspective useful and well-reasoned.

But it is becoming clear that such a perspective is not welcome among the more

vocal in this group. In fact, stating such thoughts is likely to get one accused

of being in cahoots with the big bad government or Monsanto.

That's really too bad. (And nutty.)

Once again, it's that frustrating " you're either with us or your against us

mentality. " Not everyone thinks in such extremes.

You are putting your own movement at risk by alienating those that truly care

about food and farmers, but who aren't interested in being led by ideologues (on

either side).

Anyway, I will shift my focus back to other topics that are more interesting to

me. My first CSA box arrives soon and I'm excited to get cookin'!

I had hoped to find some good recipe resources upon returning to this group. Ah,

what wackiness awaited me!

-Angie

[Guest guest]

you can find great recipe resources on this group in the Files section

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/discussingnt/

> I had hoped to find some good recipe resources upon returning to this group.

Ah, what wackiness awaited me!

>

> -Angie

>