Re: Q: Abnormal CBC

[Guest guest]

Hi ,A few things. There are three issues that I am immediately wondering about (once you rule out more significant issues). We have been taught that yeast will "feed on" iron, and thus if there is a fungal overgrowth you can see low iron. So, the disruption after probiotics may have been caused by a "war" between the healthy bacteria and the yeast in her system. I've seen people who have fungal overgrowth get very gassy, etc., or get die off when they introduce healthy probiotics into their system which will war with the unhealthy ecological environment.But this also interests me because I have been pondering this issue of aggravation after probiotics for one client and why another client really doesn't do as well as I would expect on them. I am commenting on "ever since" "4 weeks after starting a new OTC probiotic." In Dr. Thom's autoimmune seminar he spoke about the fact that some probiotics like HMF Forte will activate the Th1 pathway and down regulate overactive th2; and some will actively upregulate th2. I wonder if in your client's case, as I am wondering about the case I am observing, whether the aggravation we have observed is an exacerbation of an underlying auto-immune or imbalanced TH1/TH2 response; giving an identifiable challenge from which we can learn something to assist them.At the time he referred to a study (which i have not read) in the Int J Naturopathic Med, Vol 4, nmber 1; july 2009 entitled "Probiotics and Mucosal Immunity: Strain-specific effects on Th1/Th2 cell modulation."That's all I can share but perhaps it is pertinent.Also, to hold and utilize iron well must be digesting, assimilating amino acids to establish the ferritin. Subject: [NaturopathicChat] abnormal CBCTo: NaturopathicChat Date: Saturday, March 12, 2011, 9:33 PM I have a 40ish female patient who presents with sudden onset fatigue about 4 weeks after starting a new OTC probiotic. She stopped the probiotic, but never recovered. I just got her CBC back and haven't had such abnormal results on a patient before. I need some support on what they mean and who I should send her to if necessary to see a specialist. Here are her results:Hemoglobin 6.3 very lowHematocrit 21.0 very lowRBC 3.4MCV 61.8, MCH 18.5, MCHC 30.0, RDW 21.8absolute monocytes 114 lowplats 192 normalovalocytes 1+anisocytosis 2+microcytosis 2+elliptocytes 1+target cells 1+tear drop cells 1+Help ASAP would be appreciated. The lab actually called me with an alert on her, which I am sure was due to her low Hgb.Dr. Boyd

[Guest guest]

There is definitely anemia signs in CBC. The question is where is the source. The bleeding is likely, can be check with reticulocyte count, occult blood as Bob mentioned, urine analysis. The autoimmune reaction is very likely. I wonder if this patient has history of IBD.

I recently are study the specific carbohydrate diet (SCD) for IBD and other bowel and other condition. The FOS and bifidus species are forbidden in SCD diet due to its promote bacterial overgrowth and inhibit intestinal repair. I have seen reaction from several patients of mine having reaction from HMF with FOS. I wonder this "war" is good thing or not for patients already having inflammation in the Guts and autoimmune conditions. I prefer the easier and gentle solution. With the "war" going on, there is always casualty, cell damage as possible result.

I would like to know other people's opinion on FOS and bifidus issue..

Jieyi Zhang, ND, LAc

Aloha, OR

Hi ,

A few things. There are three issues that I am immediately wondering about (once you rule out more significant issues).

We have been taught that yeast will "feed on" iron, and thus if there is a fungal overgrowth you can see low iron. So, the disruption after probiotics may have been caused by a "war" between the healthy bacteria and the yeast in her system. I've seen people who have fungal overgrowth get very gassy, etc., or get die off when they introduce healthy probiotics into their system which will war with the unhealthy ecological environment.

But this also interests me because I have been pondering this issue of aggravation after probiotics for one client and why another client really doesn't do as well as I would expect on them. I am commenting on "ever since" "4 weeks after starting a new OTC probiotic."

In Dr. Tho m's autoimmune seminar he spoke about the fact that some probiotics like HMF Forte will activate the Th1 pathway and down regulate overactive th2; and some will actively upregulate th2. I wonder if in your client's case, as I am wondering about the case I am observing, whether the aggravation we have observed is an exacerbation of an underlying auto-immune or imbalanced TH1/TH2 response; giving an identifiable challenge from which we can learn something to assist them.

At the time he referred to a study (which i have not read) in the Int J Naturopathic Med, Vol 4, nmber 1; july 2009 entitled "Probiotics and Mucosal Immunity: Strain-specific effects on Th1/Th2 cell modulation."

That's all I can share but perhaps it is pertinent.

Also, to hold and utilize iron well must be digesting, assimilating amino acids to establish the ferritin.

Subject: [NaturopathicChat] abnormal CBCTo: NaturopathicChat Date: Saturday, March 12, 2011, 9:33 PM

I have a 40ish female patient who presents with sudden onset fatigue about 4 weeks after starting a new OTC probiotic. She stopped the probiotic, but never recovered. I just got her CBC back and haven't had such abnormal results on a patient before. I need some support on what they mean and who I should send her to if necessary to see a specialist. Here are her results:Hemoglobin 6.3 very lowHematocrit 21.0 very lowRBC 3.4MCV 61.8, MCH 18.5, MCHC 30.0, RDW 21.8absolute monocytes 114 lowplats 192 normalovalocytes 1+anisocytosis 2+microcytosis 2+elliptocytes 1+target cells 1+tear drop cells 1+Help ASAP would be appreciated. The lab actually called me with an alert on her, which I am sure was due to her low Hgb.Dr. Boyd

[Guest guest]

Hi Jieyi,I agree with easy and gentle; I generally start people on HMF Intensive which is FOS free; and after add in an item containing fos, however if I do see a dysbiotic reaction to the healthy flora (not talking about autoimmune now), they either stop FOS or pull back to a dose that is just below the level of disruption and steadily increase as their body allows based on probiotics getting established and fungal or unhealthy bacteria giving way as a result of botanicals or other use, always riding right below that threshold of discomfort.However, the autoimmune aggravation is as you put so aptly open to "casualty and cell damage."Leni There is definitely anemia signs in CBC. The question is where is the source. The bleeding is likely, can be check with reticulocyte count, occult blood as Bob mentioned, urine analysis. The autoimmune reaction is very likely. I wonder if this patient has history of IBD. I recently are study the specific carbohydrate diet (SCD) for IBD and other bowel and other condition. The FOS and bifidus species are forbidden in SCD diet due to its promote bacterial overgrowth and inhibit intestinal repair. I have seen reaction from several patients of mine having reaction from HMF with FOS. I wonder this "war" is good thing or not for patients already having inflammation in the Guts and autoimmune conditions. I prefer the easier and gentle solution. With the "war" going on, there is always casualty, cell damage as possible result. I would like to know other people's opinion on FOS and bifidus issue.. Jieyi Zhang, ND, LAc Aloha, OR Hi , A few things. There are three issues that I am immediately wondering about (once you rule out more significant issues). We have been taught that yeast will "feed on" iron, and thus if there is a fungal overgrowth you can see low iron. So, the disruption after probiotics may have been caused by a "war" between the healthy bacteria and the yeast in her system. I've seen people who have fungal overgrowth get very gassy, etc., or get die off when they introduce healthy probiotics into their system which will war with the unhealthy ecological environment. But this also interests me because I have been pondering this issue of aggravation after probiotics for one client and why another client really doesn't do as well as I would expect on them. I am commenting on "ever since" "4 weeks after starting a new OTC probiotic." In Dr. Tho m's autoimmune seminar he spoke about the fact that some probiotics like HMF Forte will activate the Th1 pathway and down regulate overactive th2; and some will actively upregulate th2. I wonder if in your client's case, as I am wondering about the case I am observing, whether the aggravation we have observed is an exacerbation of an underlying auto-immune or imbalanced TH1/TH2 response; giving an identifiable challenge from which we can learn something to assist them. At the time he referred to a study (which i have not read) in the Int J Naturopathic Med, Vol 4, nmber 1; july 2009 entitled "Probiotics and Mucosal Immunity: Strain-specific effects on Th1/Th2 cell modulation." That's all I can share but perhaps it is pertinent. Also, to hold and utilize iron well must be digesting, assimilating amino acids to establish the ferritin. Subject: [NaturopathicChat] abnormal CBCTo: NaturopathicChat Date: Saturday, March 12, 2011, 9:33 PM I have a 40ish female patient who presents with sudden onset fatigue about 4 weeks after starting a new OTC probiotic. She stopped the probiotic, but never recovered. I just got her CBC back and haven't had such abnormal results on a patient before. I need some support on what they mean and who I should send her to if necessary to see a specialist. Here are her results:Hemoglobin 6.3 very lowHematocrit 21.0 very lowRBC 3.4MCV 61.8, MCH 18.5, MCHC 30.0, RDW 21.8absolute monocytes 114 lowplats 192 normalovalocytes 1+anisocytosis 2+microcytosis 2+elliptocytes 1+target cells 1+tear drop cells 1+Help ASAP would be appreciated. The lab actually called me with an alert on her, which I am sure was due to her low Hgb.Dr. Boyd