Guest guest Posted May 2, 1999 Report Share Posted May 2, 1999 Interesting thoughts, but just what did I say that brought all this on? Mad. In a message dated 5/3/99 12:56:54 AM Eastern Daylight Time, hrn@... writes: > > > Mad, you have my kind of humor! I, being a pastor, am forever being > asked questions by others about God: Why did He let this happen? Why > didn't he stop that from happening? Sometimes, when I'm feeling really > " mean " I tell them that I'll answer their question when they answer this > one: Who created God? Was there ever a time when God didn't exist? > No, I really do try to help folks find understanding about the things of > God in their lives. My Bible study classes are quite stimulating, > though very orthodox for a traditional, intellectual Baptist (Note: I > did not say fundamentalist. They are late comers to the Baptist scene > originating in the 1950's with the Norris controversy. They are > way off base on some basic Baptist traditions: separation of church and > state means exactly that, not allowing vouchers to send your schools to > a religious sect school, nor advocating more than personal prayer in > schools (whose prayer? whose god will everyone pray to? If it is an > inoffensive prayer that neither mentions a deity or His abilities, then > is it really a prayer at all?) When I was going up Catholic nuns taught > in the public schools. I wonder how my Baptist parents felt about that? > Face it prayer can be down by anyone at anytime, but in school I gather > that most praying takes place just before an exam.) Fundamentalist say > that the pastor is the head of the church...hmmmm, I thought the Apostle > said that Jesus was the head of the church when he described the > parts of the church. I quasi I'm just not reading their version of the > Bible (It kills them when I tell them that the authorized Bible was > authorized by a homosexual King in defiance of the catholic church > and that in fact it is not a translations from the guess and the Hebrew > but more of a transliteration from the Latin Vulgate. Boy do I love > messing with these folks heads. God's truth is God's truth today, > tomorrow, and forever. It is not a fad that comes around every 20 to 40 > years. In our denomination, Southern Baptists have been fighting over > these things for neigh on 20 years with no end in sight. We used to > practice soul competency meaning that you or I have the right to commune > directly with God and have Him reveal himself to us according to His > word. They say that we still have soul competency as long as what we > come to understand through the spirit of God is the same thing that they > understand (does this sound a little popish to you?) Luckily I go to a > church where the focus is on serving God and man and not spending time > on foolish arguments and genealogies. Seems to me that is in the Bible > somewhere, too. I actually stay out of these frays and take care of the > widows and the orphans. I am planting small flower beds for elderly > ladies in our community who are delighted to have the pleasure of small > beauty in their lives. I'm going to help another widow this week with > her front yard. Christianity isn't just a bunch of beliefs, it is > caring in action, it is sitting next to the hospital bed of a patient > who has no family, it is buying groceries for a family where the husband > is out of work and paying their utility bills and/or rent. It is > clothing those with no clothes (a big ministry for our family for > teenagers who want to fit in with the crowd at school), it is cooking a > meal for an invalid and giving them the pleasure of your company while > they eat. I could go on, but my point is why spend time on pointless > arguing whine there is so much to do for others in the Name of Christ, > or Yawheh, or the god of Mohammed (aren't they historically the same God > anyway) or whomever you choose to serve. this list isn't a Christian > list or even a Methodist list or Seventh Day Adventists, or Jewish list. > We are here because we are in pain and we need help. I'm a pretty > devout traditional Baptist with a social conscious who has been helped > by Ken Turbin, a Jew who makes more sense to me than any number of > Christian pastors have ever made before.(How about that Ken? You are my > newest theological advisor!) This disease is not my fault. I didn't > ask for it. I didn't want it. I didn't commit any sin that resulted in > it. It just happened to me. And through the worst moments of it, right > now being one with the pain, I have the confidence that God is > struggling along with me and crying tears of agony along with me. He > has ordered the universe in such a fashion that he will not change those > rules for even me. If I jumped off of the Sears Tower in Chicago and > changed my mind half way down, I don't think He would suspend the laws > of gravity just for me? I suffer because I have a disease that has no > known cause and not known cure. And God suffers right along with me, > just like he suffered along with Christ on the cross. There is my > confidence. There is my joy! Because in the end, He wins all the > battles anyway. That's how he created the universe. > Sorry about the short sermon. > Ray Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 2, 1999 Report Share Posted May 2, 1999 Interesting thoughts, but just what did I say that brought all this on? Mad. In a message dated 5/3/99 12:56:54 AM Eastern Daylight Time, hrn@... writes: > > > Mad, you have my kind of humor! I, being a pastor, am forever being > asked questions by others about God: Why did He let this happen? Why > didn't he stop that from happening? Sometimes, when I'm feeling really > " mean " I tell them that I'll answer their question when they answer this > one: Who created God? Was there ever a time when God didn't exist? > No, I really do try to help folks find understanding about the things of > God in their lives. My Bible study classes are quite stimulating, > though very orthodox for a traditional, intellectual Baptist (Note: I > did not say fundamentalist. They are late comers to the Baptist scene > originating in the 1950's with the Norris controversy. They are > way off base on some basic Baptist traditions: separation of church and > state means exactly that, not allowing vouchers to send your schools to > a religious sect school, nor advocating more than personal prayer in > schools (whose prayer? whose god will everyone pray to? If it is an > inoffensive prayer that neither mentions a deity or His abilities, then > is it really a prayer at all?) When I was going up Catholic nuns taught > in the public schools. I wonder how my Baptist parents felt about that? > Face it prayer can be down by anyone at anytime, but in school I gather > that most praying takes place just before an exam.) Fundamentalist say > that the pastor is the head of the church...hmmmm, I thought the Apostle > said that Jesus was the head of the church when he described the > parts of the church. I quasi I'm just not reading their version of the > Bible (It kills them when I tell them that the authorized Bible was > authorized by a homosexual King in defiance of the catholic church > and that in fact it is not a translations from the guess and the Hebrew > but more of a transliteration from the Latin Vulgate. Boy do I love > messing with these folks heads. God's truth is God's truth today, > tomorrow, and forever. It is not a fad that comes around every 20 to 40 > years. In our denomination, Southern Baptists have been fighting over > these things for neigh on 20 years with no end in sight. We used to > practice soul competency meaning that you or I have the right to commune > directly with God and have Him reveal himself to us according to His > word. They say that we still have soul competency as long as what we > come to understand through the spirit of God is the same thing that they > understand (does this sound a little popish to you?) Luckily I go to a > church where the focus is on serving God and man and not spending time > on foolish arguments and genealogies. Seems to me that is in the Bible > somewhere, too. I actually stay out of these frays and take care of the > widows and the orphans. I am planting small flower beds for elderly > ladies in our community who are delighted to have the pleasure of small > beauty in their lives. I'm going to help another widow this week with > her front yard. Christianity isn't just a bunch of beliefs, it is > caring in action, it is sitting next to the hospital bed of a patient > who has no family, it is buying groceries for a family where the husband > is out of work and paying their utility bills and/or rent. It is > clothing those with no clothes (a big ministry for our family for > teenagers who want to fit in with the crowd at school), it is cooking a > meal for an invalid and giving them the pleasure of your company while > they eat. I could go on, but my point is why spend time on pointless > arguing whine there is so much to do for others in the Name of Christ, > or Yawheh, or the god of Mohammed (aren't they historically the same God > anyway) or whomever you choose to serve. this list isn't a Christian > list or even a Methodist list or Seventh Day Adventists, or Jewish list. > We are here because we are in pain and we need help. I'm a pretty > devout traditional Baptist with a social conscious who has been helped > by Ken Turbin, a Jew who makes more sense to me than any number of > Christian pastors have ever made before.(How about that Ken? You are my > newest theological advisor!) This disease is not my fault. I didn't > ask for it. I didn't want it. I didn't commit any sin that resulted in > it. It just happened to me. And through the worst moments of it, right > now being one with the pain, I have the confidence that God is > struggling along with me and crying tears of agony along with me. He > has ordered the universe in such a fashion that he will not change those > rules for even me. If I jumped off of the Sears Tower in Chicago and > changed my mind half way down, I don't think He would suspend the laws > of gravity just for me? I suffer because I have a disease that has no > known cause and not known cure. And God suffers right along with me, > just like he suffered along with Christ on the cross. There is my > confidence. There is my joy! Because in the end, He wins all the > battles anyway. That's how he created the universe. > Sorry about the short sermon. > Ray Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 2, 1999 Report Share Posted May 2, 1999 Mad, you have my kind of humor! I, being a pastor, am forever being asked questions by others about God: Why did He let this happen? Why didn't he stop that from happening? Sometimes, when I'm feeling really " mean " I tell them that I'll answer their question when they answer this one: Who created God? Was there ever a time when God didn't exist? No, I really do try to help folks find understanding about the things of God in their lives. My Bible study classes are quite stimulating, though very orthodox for a traditional, intellectual Baptist (Note: I did not say fundamentalist. They are late comers to the Baptist scene originating in the 1950's with the Norris controversy. They are way off base on some basic Baptist traditions: separation of church and state means exactly that, not allowing vouchers to send your schools to a religious sect school, nor advocating more than personal prayer in schools (whose prayer? whose god will everyone pray to? If it is an inoffensive prayer that neither mentions a deity or His abilities, then is it really a prayer at all?) When I was going up Catholic nuns taught in the public schools. I wonder how my Baptist parents felt about that? Face it prayer can be down by anyone at anytime, but in school I gather that most praying takes place just before an exam.) Fundamentalist say that the pastor is the head of the church...hmmmm, I thought the Apostle said that Jesus was the head of the church when he described the parts of the church. I quasi I'm just not reading their version of the Bible (It kills them when I tell them that the authorized Bible was authorized by a homosexual King in defiance of the catholic church and that in fact it is not a translations from the guess and the Hebrew but more of a transliteration from the Latin Vulgate. Boy do I love messing with these folks heads. God's truth is God's truth today, tomorrow, and forever. It is not a fad that comes around every 20 to 40 years. In our denomination, Southern Baptists have been fighting over these things for neigh on 20 years with no end in sight. We used to practice soul competency meaning that you or I have the right to commune directly with God and have Him reveal himself to us according to His word. They say that we still have soul competency as long as what we come to understand through the spirit of God is the same thing that they understand (does this sound a little popish to you?) Luckily I go to a church where the focus is on serving God and man and not spending time on foolish arguments and genealogies. Seems to me that is in the Bible somewhere, too. I actually stay out of these frays and take care of the widows and the orphans. I am planting small flower beds for elderly ladies in our community who are delighted to have the pleasure of small beauty in their lives. I'm going to help another widow this week with her front yard. Christianity isn't just a bunch of beliefs, it is caring in action, it is sitting next to the hospital bed of a patient who has no family, it is buying groceries for a family where the husband is out of work and paying their utility bills and/or rent. It is clothing those with no clothes (a big ministry for our family for teenagers who want to fit in with the crowd at school), it is cooking a meal for an invalid and giving them the pleasure of your company while they eat. I could go on, but my point is why spend time on pointless arguing whine there is so much to do for others in the Name of Christ, or Yawheh, or the god of Mohammed (aren't they historically the same God anyway) or whomever you choose to serve. this list isn't a Christian list or even a Methodist list or Seventh Day Adventists, or Jewish list. We are here because we are in pain and we need help. I'm a pretty devout traditional Baptist with a social conscious who has been helped by Ken Turbin, a Jew who makes more sense to me than any number of Christian pastors have ever made before.(How about that Ken? You are my newest theological advisor!) This disease is not my fault. I didn't ask for it. I didn't want it. I didn't commit any sin that resulted in it. It just happened to me. And through the worst moments of it, right now being one with the pain, I have the confidence that God is struggling along with me and crying tears of agony along with me. He has ordered the universe in such a fashion that he will not change those rules for even me. If I jumped off of the Sears Tower in Chicago and changed my mind half way down, I don't think He would suspend the laws of gravity just for me? I suffer because I have a disease that has no known cause and not known cure. And God suffers right along with me, just like he suffered along with Christ on the cross. There is my confidence. There is my joy! Because in the end, He wins all the battles anyway. That's how he created the universe. Sorry about the short sermon. Ray Re: Job Interview/Ray > From: MadMad4JC@... > > In a message dated 5/2/99 8:59:51 PM Eastern Daylight Time, hrn@... > writes: > > > Or the probability of my computer not crashing tonight? > > > This one could be as perplexing as anything about God. > LOL > > Mad > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > Did you know that we add over 1,000 new e-mail communities every day? > http://www.ONElist.com > Explore a new hobby, discover a new friend, laugh at a new joke! > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > Know someone who could profit from our list? Send our direct sign-up URL: http://www.onelist.com/subscribe.cgi/chronic_pain, or write us at: chronic_pain @onelist.com > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 2, 1999 Report Share Posted May 2, 1999 Mad, you have my kind of humor! I, being a pastor, am forever being asked questions by others about God: Why did He let this happen? Why didn't he stop that from happening? Sometimes, when I'm feeling really " mean " I tell them that I'll answer their question when they answer this one: Who created God? Was there ever a time when God didn't exist? No, I really do try to help folks find understanding about the things of God in their lives. My Bible study classes are quite stimulating, though very orthodox for a traditional, intellectual Baptist (Note: I did not say fundamentalist. They are late comers to the Baptist scene originating in the 1950's with the Norris controversy. They are way off base on some basic Baptist traditions: separation of church and state means exactly that, not allowing vouchers to send your schools to a religious sect school, nor advocating more than personal prayer in schools (whose prayer? whose god will everyone pray to? If it is an inoffensive prayer that neither mentions a deity or His abilities, then is it really a prayer at all?) When I was going up Catholic nuns taught in the public schools. I wonder how my Baptist parents felt about that? Face it prayer can be down by anyone at anytime, but in school I gather that most praying takes place just before an exam.) Fundamentalist say that the pastor is the head of the church...hmmmm, I thought the Apostle said that Jesus was the head of the church when he described the parts of the church. I quasi I'm just not reading their version of the Bible (It kills them when I tell them that the authorized Bible was authorized by a homosexual King in defiance of the catholic church and that in fact it is not a translations from the guess and the Hebrew but more of a transliteration from the Latin Vulgate. Boy do I love messing with these folks heads. God's truth is God's truth today, tomorrow, and forever. It is not a fad that comes around every 20 to 40 years. In our denomination, Southern Baptists have been fighting over these things for neigh on 20 years with no end in sight. We used to practice soul competency meaning that you or I have the right to commune directly with God and have Him reveal himself to us according to His word. They say that we still have soul competency as long as what we come to understand through the spirit of God is the same thing that they understand (does this sound a little popish to you?) Luckily I go to a church where the focus is on serving God and man and not spending time on foolish arguments and genealogies. Seems to me that is in the Bible somewhere, too. I actually stay out of these frays and take care of the widows and the orphans. I am planting small flower beds for elderly ladies in our community who are delighted to have the pleasure of small beauty in their lives. I'm going to help another widow this week with her front yard. Christianity isn't just a bunch of beliefs, it is caring in action, it is sitting next to the hospital bed of a patient who has no family, it is buying groceries for a family where the husband is out of work and paying their utility bills and/or rent. It is clothing those with no clothes (a big ministry for our family for teenagers who want to fit in with the crowd at school), it is cooking a meal for an invalid and giving them the pleasure of your company while they eat. I could go on, but my point is why spend time on pointless arguing whine there is so much to do for others in the Name of Christ, or Yawheh, or the god of Mohammed (aren't they historically the same God anyway) or whomever you choose to serve. this list isn't a Christian list or even a Methodist list or Seventh Day Adventists, or Jewish list. We are here because we are in pain and we need help. I'm a pretty devout traditional Baptist with a social conscious who has been helped by Ken Turbin, a Jew who makes more sense to me than any number of Christian pastors have ever made before.(How about that Ken? You are my newest theological advisor!) This disease is not my fault. I didn't ask for it. I didn't want it. I didn't commit any sin that resulted in it. It just happened to me. And through the worst moments of it, right now being one with the pain, I have the confidence that God is struggling along with me and crying tears of agony along with me. He has ordered the universe in such a fashion that he will not change those rules for even me. If I jumped off of the Sears Tower in Chicago and changed my mind half way down, I don't think He would suspend the laws of gravity just for me? I suffer because I have a disease that has no known cause and not known cure. And God suffers right along with me, just like he suffered along with Christ on the cross. There is my confidence. There is my joy! Because in the end, He wins all the battles anyway. That's how he created the universe. Sorry about the short sermon. Ray Re: Job Interview/Ray > From: MadMad4JC@... > > In a message dated 5/2/99 8:59:51 PM Eastern Daylight Time, hrn@... > writes: > > > Or the probability of my computer not crashing tonight? > > > This one could be as perplexing as anything about God. > LOL > > Mad > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > Did you know that we add over 1,000 new e-mail communities every day? > http://www.ONElist.com > Explore a new hobby, discover a new friend, laugh at a new joke! > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > Know someone who could profit from our list? Send our direct sign-up URL: http://www.onelist.com/subscribe.cgi/chronic_pain, or write us at: chronic_pain @onelist.com > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 3, 1999 Report Share Posted May 3, 1999 (Comments in Parentheses are from Ray Neal, co-moderator) Firstly, the answers below are my own and are not to be taken as an attack on anyone's beliefs or unbeliefs. ( We're not a religious list. But sometimes I let my pastoral background and seminary training creep into my posts. Sorry, folks!) Secondly, I am an atheist, though strictly speaking that should be written as non-deist, though having wasted months of writing trying to explain what that means I tend to use atheist. some of us do know what a non-diest is as opposed to an atheist! Some of us have college degress we seldom get to use until a post like this comes along. Thanks!) Thirdly, the text below is not easy to break apart to answer the various parts, so I have had to re-arrange the lines in order to make it clear what I am answering. ( remember I was " high " on Klonopin trying to get some sleep. Blame Ken Turbin, he told me to take more. LOL) Finally, make certain that your tongues are firmly placed in your cheeks while reading this. ( you must be new to the list, our tongues are seldom firmly in our cheeks. We have too much fun to leave them there.) > > >Mad, you have my kind of humor! I, being a pastor, am forever being >asked questions by others about God: says: God = Unified Field Theory, or the Theory of Everything, basically a cosmological idea that it is possible to explain gravity, the universe and spacetime within the simplicity of a single theory. >Ray: Why did He let this happen? Chris: Hypothetically speaking God created man in his own likeness, and in so doing gave man a brain with which to think; thus when you go and build San Francisco on top of 3 geological fault lines, it is no more God's fault than St 's. (Ray as moderator: Only we didn't know it then and I guess it would cost more to move it than just let it be destroyed! Personally, I think God should throw in a little fire and brimstone like that movie " Volcano! " ) Chris: Wars are started by men, putting buildings in dangerous places is done by men, failing to look forward and plan correctly is men; most things are men. There are 'Acts of God' or plain bad luck or statistical fluctuations, also called lapsed warranties. Looking at the positive side of life, if you have spent 25 years studying to be a world-leading brain surgeon, it is not an act of god, just plain hard work. (Ray as moderator: Couldn't agree with you more!) >Ray: Why didn't he stop that from happening? Chris: Why should he? Did God start it? >Ray: Sometimes, when I'm feeling really > " mean " I tell them that I'll answer their question when they answer this >one: Who created God? Chris: Man created God in their own likeness, in order to answer the question: where did man come from? >Ray: Was there ever a time when God didn't exist? Chris: Before man. Ray: No, I really do try to help folks find understanding about the things of >God in their lives. My Bible study classes are quite stimulating, >though very orthodox for a traditional, intellectual Baptist (Note: I >did not say fundamentalist. They are late comers to the Baptist scene >originating in the 1950's with the Norris controversy. They are >way off base on some basic Baptist traditions: separation of church and >state means exactly that, not allowing vouchers to send your schools to >a religious sect school, nor advocating more than personal prayer in >schools (whose prayer? whose god will everyone pray to? If it is an >inoffensive prayer that neither mentions a deity or His abilities, then >is it really a prayer at all?) Chris: Consider history, the early migrants to America were fleeing State-operated religious persecution. (Ray as moderator: hold on there partner, most folks came or were sent her by companies out to make big bucks! THe Spanish, French, English and all the rest were after GOLD! The settlement of American was more a entreprenurial enterprise than a religious exodus from Europe. Some folks had no choice, go or stay in prison. Some wanted a better life than they had in Europe and went as bondsman without a thought about religion.) Chris: I'd make history a compulsory subject, it might stop a few wars. Ray as moderator: It's suppose to be a compulsory subject in schools, but we just keep repeating it over and over again, just like the problem in the Balkan sates today. >Ray: When I was going up Catholic nuns taught >in the public schools. I wonder how my Baptist parents felt about that? Chris: A 'good' education? <g> Ray as moderator: Yep, it was! >Ray: Face it prayer can be down by anyone at anytime, but in school I gather >that most praying takes place just before an exam.) Fundamentalist say >that the pastor is the head of the church...hmmmm, I thought the Apostle > said that Jesus was the head of the church when he described the >parts of the church. Chris: Suggest 15-17 (if memory holds) the Sermon on the Mount. Ray as moderator: Try chapters 5-7 of . Ray: I'm just not reading their version of the >Bible (It kills them when I tell them that the authorized Bible was >authorized by a homosexual King in defiance of the catholic church >and that in fact it is not a translations from the guess and the Hebrew >but more of a transliteration from the Latin Vulgate. Chris: Agreed, and the vulgate takes in the politics of the 12th century which was Pope Pius 2 (I think) anyway the chap who decreed that all priests must be celibate. Ray as moderator: Think of all those priests who had to give up their families or lose their priesthood. That particular order by a pope did more to destroy the traditional family than any other in history. Chris: Taking a primitive view of the early church the first pope Simon was married. Ray as moderator: It would be hard to have a mother-in-law healed by Jesus, if he wasn't married! Chris: Go forward a little and we have the Council of Nicea under King Constantine of Rome, where a council was called to decide what religion the Roman Empire would have as the 'state' faith, since by this time there were the 12central Romano-Pagan gods, thousands of sub-gods, and this rather interesting 'one god' idea that would cut down on the inter-god arguements and fighting. The Council was in session on and off for 17 years, in the end no agreement could be reached, so the Constantine Edict was handed down, at its simplest level, King Constantine defined what everyone would believe in and what books were to be included in the in the Official Religious text - the Biblia (hence Bible). From the Constantine Edict comes the Nicene Crede which is used by churches today. Interestingly, King Constantine was not baptised until he was practically dead, and could no longer prevent his wife from having the office carried out. -------------snip--- preaching, etc--------- >Ray: Luckily I go to a church where the focus is on serving God and man and not spending time on foolish arguments and genealogies. Seems to me that is in the Bible somewhere, too. Phillistines (Ray: whoops, those were the guys killed with the jawbone of an ass, I think you mean the Pharisees) wasn't it, people who kept to the rules without thought for the reasons for the rules, or for people; mentioned in the parable of the Good Samaritan. >Ray: I actually stay out of these frays and take care of the >widows and the orphans. I am planting small flower beds for elderly >ladies in our community who are delighted to have the pleasure of small >beauty in their lives. I'm going to help another widow this week with >her front yard. Christianity isn't just a bunch of beliefs, it is >caring in action, it is sitting next to the hospital bed of a patient >who has no family, it is buying groceries for a family where the husband >is out of work and paying their utility bills and/or rent. It is >clothing those with no clothes (a big ministry for our family for >teenagers who want to fit in with the crowd at school), it is cooking a >meal for an invalid and giving them the pleasure of your company while >they eat. Chris: Agreed Ray, but one does not have to be religious to take care of people,neighbours, friends, relatives, and all. Ray as moderator: Agreed, Chris! I know have lots of non-religious friends who do good deeds daily just because they care for others. Chris: You just have to care about people. RayL >I could go on, but my point is why spend time on pointless >arguing while there is so much to do for others in the Name of Christ, >or Yawheh, or the god of Mohammed (aren't they historically the same God >anyway) or whomever you choose to serve. Chris: People. <grin> >Ray: this list isn't a Christian list or even a Methodist list or Seventh Day Adventists, or Jewish list. We are here because we are in pain and we need help. I'm a pretty devout traditional Baptist with a social conscious who has been helped by Ken Turbin, a Jew who makes more sense to me than any number of >Christian pastors have ever made before.(How about that Ken? You are my >newest theological advisor!) This disease is not my fault. I didn't >ask for it. I didn't want it. I didn't commit any sin that resulted in >it. It just happened to me. And through the worst moments of it, right >now being one with the pain, I have the confidence that God is >struggling along with me and crying tears of agony along with me. He >has ordered the universe in such a fashion that he will not change those >rules for even me. If I jumped off of the Sears Tower in Chicago and >changed my mind half way down, I don't think He would suspend the laws >of gravity just for me? I suffer because I have a disease that has no >known cause and not known cure. And God suffers right along with me, >just like he suffered along with Christ on the cross. There is my >confidence. There is my joy! Because in the end, He wins all the >battles anyway. That's how he created the universe. >Sorry about the short sermon. >Ray Chris: Taking the religious symbolism away Ray, we appear to agree, <grin> though my viewpoint is somewhat coloured by having spent 6 years in a secure mental hospital (1986-92) where every 3rd person talks to god and every 10th person is god. <GRIN> Ray: Spent some time in a mental ward also...as an employee...two years. I met the Baptist (a red-haired woman), St. and St. , and Jesus several times. LOL thanks for helping making my terrible night into a wonderful day! Take aim at my posts anytime! I loved this! You have made me forget my pain for a moment, and for that I thank you mightily! Ray Green cg@... http://www.digit.org opinions expressed are my own SUBSCRIBE to chronic_painonelist Death or dying may be a problem, everything else is only annoying or irritating Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 3, 1999 Report Share Posted May 3, 1999 (Comments in Parentheses are from Ray Neal, co-moderator) Firstly, the answers below are my own and are not to be taken as an attack on anyone's beliefs or unbeliefs. ( We're not a religious list. But sometimes I let my pastoral background and seminary training creep into my posts. Sorry, folks!) Secondly, I am an atheist, though strictly speaking that should be written as non-deist, though having wasted months of writing trying to explain what that means I tend to use atheist. some of us do know what a non-diest is as opposed to an atheist! Some of us have college degress we seldom get to use until a post like this comes along. Thanks!) Thirdly, the text below is not easy to break apart to answer the various parts, so I have had to re-arrange the lines in order to make it clear what I am answering. ( remember I was " high " on Klonopin trying to get some sleep. Blame Ken Turbin, he told me to take more. LOL) Finally, make certain that your tongues are firmly placed in your cheeks while reading this. ( you must be new to the list, our tongues are seldom firmly in our cheeks. We have too much fun to leave them there.) > > >Mad, you have my kind of humor! I, being a pastor, am forever being >asked questions by others about God: says: God = Unified Field Theory, or the Theory of Everything, basically a cosmological idea that it is possible to explain gravity, the universe and spacetime within the simplicity of a single theory. >Ray: Why did He let this happen? Chris: Hypothetically speaking God created man in his own likeness, and in so doing gave man a brain with which to think; thus when you go and build San Francisco on top of 3 geological fault lines, it is no more God's fault than St 's. (Ray as moderator: Only we didn't know it then and I guess it would cost more to move it than just let it be destroyed! Personally, I think God should throw in a little fire and brimstone like that movie " Volcano! " ) Chris: Wars are started by men, putting buildings in dangerous places is done by men, failing to look forward and plan correctly is men; most things are men. There are 'Acts of God' or plain bad luck or statistical fluctuations, also called lapsed warranties. Looking at the positive side of life, if you have spent 25 years studying to be a world-leading brain surgeon, it is not an act of god, just plain hard work. (Ray as moderator: Couldn't agree with you more!) >Ray: Why didn't he stop that from happening? Chris: Why should he? Did God start it? >Ray: Sometimes, when I'm feeling really > " mean " I tell them that I'll answer their question when they answer this >one: Who created God? Chris: Man created God in their own likeness, in order to answer the question: where did man come from? >Ray: Was there ever a time when God didn't exist? Chris: Before man. Ray: No, I really do try to help folks find understanding about the things of >God in their lives. My Bible study classes are quite stimulating, >though very orthodox for a traditional, intellectual Baptist (Note: I >did not say fundamentalist. They are late comers to the Baptist scene >originating in the 1950's with the Norris controversy. They are >way off base on some basic Baptist traditions: separation of church and >state means exactly that, not allowing vouchers to send your schools to >a religious sect school, nor advocating more than personal prayer in >schools (whose prayer? whose god will everyone pray to? If it is an >inoffensive prayer that neither mentions a deity or His abilities, then >is it really a prayer at all?) Chris: Consider history, the early migrants to America were fleeing State-operated religious persecution. (Ray as moderator: hold on there partner, most folks came or were sent her by companies out to make big bucks! THe Spanish, French, English and all the rest were after GOLD! The settlement of American was more a entreprenurial enterprise than a religious exodus from Europe. Some folks had no choice, go or stay in prison. Some wanted a better life than they had in Europe and went as bondsman without a thought about religion.) Chris: I'd make history a compulsory subject, it might stop a few wars. Ray as moderator: It's suppose to be a compulsory subject in schools, but we just keep repeating it over and over again, just like the problem in the Balkan sates today. >Ray: When I was going up Catholic nuns taught >in the public schools. I wonder how my Baptist parents felt about that? Chris: A 'good' education? <g> Ray as moderator: Yep, it was! >Ray: Face it prayer can be down by anyone at anytime, but in school I gather >that most praying takes place just before an exam.) Fundamentalist say >that the pastor is the head of the church...hmmmm, I thought the Apostle > said that Jesus was the head of the church when he described the >parts of the church. Chris: Suggest 15-17 (if memory holds) the Sermon on the Mount. Ray as moderator: Try chapters 5-7 of . Ray: I'm just not reading their version of the >Bible (It kills them when I tell them that the authorized Bible was >authorized by a homosexual King in defiance of the catholic church >and that in fact it is not a translations from the guess and the Hebrew >but more of a transliteration from the Latin Vulgate. Chris: Agreed, and the vulgate takes in the politics of the 12th century which was Pope Pius 2 (I think) anyway the chap who decreed that all priests must be celibate. Ray as moderator: Think of all those priests who had to give up their families or lose their priesthood. That particular order by a pope did more to destroy the traditional family than any other in history. Chris: Taking a primitive view of the early church the first pope Simon was married. Ray as moderator: It would be hard to have a mother-in-law healed by Jesus, if he wasn't married! Chris: Go forward a little and we have the Council of Nicea under King Constantine of Rome, where a council was called to decide what religion the Roman Empire would have as the 'state' faith, since by this time there were the 12central Romano-Pagan gods, thousands of sub-gods, and this rather interesting 'one god' idea that would cut down on the inter-god arguements and fighting. The Council was in session on and off for 17 years, in the end no agreement could be reached, so the Constantine Edict was handed down, at its simplest level, King Constantine defined what everyone would believe in and what books were to be included in the in the Official Religious text - the Biblia (hence Bible). From the Constantine Edict comes the Nicene Crede which is used by churches today. Interestingly, King Constantine was not baptised until he was practically dead, and could no longer prevent his wife from having the office carried out. -------------snip--- preaching, etc--------- >Ray: Luckily I go to a church where the focus is on serving God and man and not spending time on foolish arguments and genealogies. Seems to me that is in the Bible somewhere, too. Phillistines (Ray: whoops, those were the guys killed with the jawbone of an ass, I think you mean the Pharisees) wasn't it, people who kept to the rules without thought for the reasons for the rules, or for people; mentioned in the parable of the Good Samaritan. >Ray: I actually stay out of these frays and take care of the >widows and the orphans. I am planting small flower beds for elderly >ladies in our community who are delighted to have the pleasure of small >beauty in their lives. I'm going to help another widow this week with >her front yard. Christianity isn't just a bunch of beliefs, it is >caring in action, it is sitting next to the hospital bed of a patient >who has no family, it is buying groceries for a family where the husband >is out of work and paying their utility bills and/or rent. It is >clothing those with no clothes (a big ministry for our family for >teenagers who want to fit in with the crowd at school), it is cooking a >meal for an invalid and giving them the pleasure of your company while >they eat. Chris: Agreed Ray, but one does not have to be religious to take care of people,neighbours, friends, relatives, and all. Ray as moderator: Agreed, Chris! I know have lots of non-religious friends who do good deeds daily just because they care for others. Chris: You just have to care about people. RayL >I could go on, but my point is why spend time on pointless >arguing while there is so much to do for others in the Name of Christ, >or Yawheh, or the god of Mohammed (aren't they historically the same God >anyway) or whomever you choose to serve. Chris: People. <grin> >Ray: this list isn't a Christian list or even a Methodist list or Seventh Day Adventists, or Jewish list. We are here because we are in pain and we need help. I'm a pretty devout traditional Baptist with a social conscious who has been helped by Ken Turbin, a Jew who makes more sense to me than any number of >Christian pastors have ever made before.(How about that Ken? You are my >newest theological advisor!) This disease is not my fault. I didn't >ask for it. I didn't want it. I didn't commit any sin that resulted in >it. It just happened to me. And through the worst moments of it, right >now being one with the pain, I have the confidence that God is >struggling along with me and crying tears of agony along with me. He >has ordered the universe in such a fashion that he will not change those >rules for even me. If I jumped off of the Sears Tower in Chicago and >changed my mind half way down, I don't think He would suspend the laws >of gravity just for me? I suffer because I have a disease that has no >known cause and not known cure. And God suffers right along with me, >just like he suffered along with Christ on the cross. There is my >confidence. There is my joy! Because in the end, He wins all the >battles anyway. That's how he created the universe. >Sorry about the short sermon. >Ray Chris: Taking the religious symbolism away Ray, we appear to agree, <grin> though my viewpoint is somewhat coloured by having spent 6 years in a secure mental hospital (1986-92) where every 3rd person talks to god and every 10th person is god. <GRIN> Ray: Spent some time in a mental ward also...as an employee...two years. I met the Baptist (a red-haired woman), St. and St. , and Jesus several times. LOL thanks for helping making my terrible night into a wonderful day! Take aim at my posts anytime! I loved this! You have made me forget my pain for a moment, and for that I thank you mightily! Ray Green cg@... http://www.digit.org opinions expressed are my own SUBSCRIBE to chronic_painonelist Death or dying may be a problem, everything else is only annoying or irritating Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 3, 1999 Report Share Posted May 3, 1999 In a message dated 5/3/99 7:18:49 PM Eastern Daylight Time, kturbin@... writes: > At 04:24 PM 5/3/99 +0100, you wrote: > >This disease is not my fault. I didn't ask for it. I didn't want it. I didn't commit any sin that resulted in it. It just happened to me. Whomever wrote this, you are right. We live in a corrupt world and as such we get corrupted with illness. Please understand that. You are sick because you are sick and not because of sin. There are some things that happen to us because we did something wrong and perhaps that could result in illness. However, syndromes like Fibromyalgia, and pain from injury is not self induced by anyone's standards. If I missed the reason you are ill forgive me. Madeline Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 3, 1999 Report Share Posted May 3, 1999 Hi Ray, All, At 04:24 PM 5/3/99 +0100, you wrote: >This disease is not my fault. I didn't > >ask for it. I didn't want it. I didn't commit any sin that resulted in > >it. It just happened to me. I appreciate compliments and must say however that what you succeed in doing in your own life is not largely of my doing (or my fault!) But thanks anyway. Seems to me that in bringing up the often perceived connection between disability, illness & the notion of some causal link to our behavior, or sins, you have probably struck at the heart of the denial and/or rejection that we experience in relationships (friends & family). The notion of connection to sin is deeply ingrained in our folkways & morays (our societies' collective unconscious and unspoken rules, expectations & beliefs) To some extent, victims cannot help avoid labeling themselves somewhat or just plain guilty of earning their afflictions through sin; nor can family & friends. The connection is somewhat encouraged by the retaliation against Egyptians by famine, plagues, etc. But the Old Testament does not make or, strictly speaking, suggest that all adversity is earned. None-the-less, we have managed to create that link, beginning in earlier ages, sadly continuing through to us today. Along with the linking of sin & suffering, there is also linking of perceived contagiousness. So a lot of our friends, family & selves are simply trying to control contagion. Not a very satisfying explanation of social behavior, but I fear all too true. And being the silly imperfect creatures that we are, unfortunately we expect ourselves & those close to us to be fully rational. This kind of misperception can only be fought by understanding and cutting some slack. Ken ---------- Turbin | Mailto:kturbin@... | webmaster@... Net Biz Development | *Page me: http://www.mirabilis.com/17198172 Tel. (702) 312- 6888 | Fax (702)312-6889 | GetICQ http://www.icq.com/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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