Re:Faith & Science (& sport)

[Guest guest]

One possible way of describing the duality is that " intuition " or belief

without evidence is a product of thought when the brain is predominantly

emitting Alpha, theta or delta waves (accessing primarily

subsconsciouos/uncounscious pathways). Whereas science is a product of

analytical thought which requires the brain to be in Beta brainwave mode.

Faith, meditation, epiphanies & hypnosis come from (or target) the

subconscious mind. Scientific reasoning comes from critical analytical

thought

Elite athletes have been shown to be able to drop into alpha wave pattern

the instant before having to perform in a high stress situation. Where as

non elite athletes have been shown to stay largely in Beta patterning

(analytical). (reference Ungerleider PH.D - mental training for peak

performance) This is why hypnosis and visualisation works well for them.

Mel Siff use to talk about low level exercise as " restoration " training.

B Eastham BPhEd MAAESS AEP

THE OPEN DOOR

Personal Training & Home Fitness Club

St Kilda Melbourne

ph 0420 532 522

chris@...

coming soon www.theopendoor.com.au

========================

Posted by: " Yehoshua Zohar "

<mailto:yzohar@...?Subject=%20Re%3AFaith%20%26%20Science>

yzohar@... <http://profiles.yahoo.com/yehoshuazohar>

yehoshuazohar

Fri Aug 31, 2007 7:43 am (PST)

Posted by: " Jim Storch " <mailto:jpcrete%40yahoo.com> jpcrete@...

jpcrete

Wed Aug 29, 2007 1:24 am (PST)

" Faith, by definition, is a belief WITHOUT evidence. "

" Faith, by definition, is a belief WITHOUT evidence. "

I disagree. Faith in science is still faith.

*So then belief in the validity of the scientific process is equal to

believing that there really was a Hebrew speaking snake who gave an apple to

Eve, that a Jewish woman was impregnated by some greater being about two

thousand years ago and gave birth to a man-god or that the true secret

succesor to Mohammed and Ali is hiding somewhere and will reappear someday?

All religions are based on givens, upheld by their believers as inherent,

transcendental truisms not needing proof. The believers will claim that

intellectual, rational reasoning is too small to investigate these greater

truths.

Modern science exists because it's pioneers broke away from religious dogma

(Catholicism). Modern science is on a seperate plane from religion and must

stay there or else there will be no science.

Faith, as used in a religous context, has nothing to do with science.

=======================

[Guest guest]

you really should consider reading some modern neuroscience. A

lot of what you seem to be saying about brain function appears to be

informed by the occasional science article filtered through a mishmash

of pop culture brain function, and westernized eastern mythology.

Off the top, the brain doesn't emit waves, an EEG records electrical

activity in the brain. The " waves " are more a way of describing the

EEG's visual representation of that electrical activity. The

electrical activity measured consists of voltage differentials in the

brain designated in Hertz (Hz), loosely translated meaning voltage

differentials per second.

Yes certain forms of behavior are associated with certain kinds of

electrical activity in the brain. But to suggest that all science

reasoning equals analytical thought which equals beta waves is

fundamentally wrong. The brain just doesn't work like that. The

associations are far more loose than what you suggest.

What's more you appear to be mixing notions of conscious,

subconscious, and unconscious to suit your ideas of what faith is. For

example, meditation at least most forms of meditation, and

particularly eastern forms of meditation, are very conscious forms of

activity. Concentration on and awareness of the present is probably

the most important aspect of meditation. It emphasizes observation.

The focus is just internal.

Now as I've mentioned to you before, you have an unfortunate tendency

to create false divisions in brain function. For example, you cannot

cleanly separate emotion from reason. People with brain injuries that

prevent them from experiencing emotion cannot reason properly. You

seem to have this almost Spock-like idea of reason and science.

Now someone like Dawkins would likely argue that irrational belief is

believing in something despite evidence to the contrary, or the utter

lack of supporting evidence. A master of meditation would likely argue

along the same lines (as meditation is fundamentally about

observation), although she would probably add to that, that what

powers the irrational belief is desire and fear.

you are also exploiting different definitions of faith. Faith

in the existence of an afterlife is not the same as an athlete's

faith, or, more accurately, confidence in his ability to perform. The

athlete's confidence is most definitely based on evidence. Equating

that confidence with faith in religion or just every kind of faith is

disingenuous.

A few good and relatively non-technical books on neuroscience,

meditation and their relation to stress are:

Sapolsky's " Why Zebras Don't Get Ulcers "

http://tinyurl.com/27lp5z

Jon Kabat-Zinn's " Full Catastrophe Living "

http://tinyurl.com/2fxa3g

Burns

Vancouver, BC

>

> One possible way of describing the duality is that " intuition " or belief

> without evidence is a product of thought when the brain is predominantly

> emitting Alpha, theta or delta waves (accessing primarily

> subsconsciouos/uncounscious pathways). Whereas science is a product of

> analytical thought which requires the brain to be in Beta brainwave

mode.

>

> Faith, meditation, epiphanies & hypnosis come from (or target) the

> subconscious mind. Scientific reasoning comes from critical analytical

> thought

>

> Elite athletes have been shown to be able to drop into alpha wave

pattern

> the instant before having to perform in a high stress situation.

Where as

> non elite athletes have been shown to stay largely in Beta patterning

> (analytical). (reference Ungerleider PH.D - mental training

for peak

> performance) This is why hypnosis and visualisation works well for

them.

> Mel Siff use to talk about low level exercise as " restoration "

training.

>

>

> B Eastham BPhEd MAAESS AEP

> THE OPEN DOOR

> Personal Training & Home Fitness Club

> St Kilda Melbourne

> ph 0420 532 522

> chris@...

> coming soon www.theopendoor.com.au

>

> ========================

> Posted by: " Yehoshua Zohar "

> <mailto:yzohar@...?Subject=%20Re%3AFaith%20%26%20Science>

> yzohar@... <http://profiles.yahoo.com/yehoshuazohar>

> yehoshuazohar

>

> Fri Aug 31, 2007 7:43 am (PST)

>

> Posted by: " Jim Storch " <mailto:jpcrete%40yahoo.com> jpcrete@...

> jpcrete

> Wed Aug 29, 2007 1:24 am (PST)

> " Faith, by definition, is a belief WITHOUT evidence. "

>

>

> " Faith, by definition, is a belief WITHOUT evidence. "

>

> I disagree. Faith in science is still faith.

>

> *So then belief in the validity of the scientific process is equal to

> believing that there really was a Hebrew speaking snake who gave an

apple to

> Eve, that a Jewish woman was impregnated by some greater being about two

> thousand years ago and gave birth to a man-god or that the true secret

> succesor to Mohammed and Ali is hiding somewhere and will reappear

someday?

>

> All religions are based on givens, upheld by their believers as

inherent,

> transcendental truisms not needing proof. The believers will claim that

> intellectual, rational reasoning is too small to investigate these

greater

> truths.

>

> Modern science exists because it's pioneers broke away from

religious dogma

> (Catholicism). Modern science is on a seperate plane from religion

and must

> stay there or else there will be no science.

>

> Faith, as used in a religous context, has nothing to do with science.

>

> =======================

>