Guest guest Posted May 20, 2007 Report Share Posted May 20, 2007 I agree fully with your points Nick. Of course, I played prop... :^) > Hi > > Thank you for adding your posts to this. I agree entirely with your > post > and would always recomend cleans for rugby players. If you go back > to my > earlier posts on rugby, I mentioned cleans, front squats etc. > > I was just adding that if you look at a number of occasions in a > game ,Tom a > scrum half, would find that he is often in a position bent over > with knees > flexed and hips flexed and have to execute powerful moves starting > from this > starting position. Acquiring strength through the full range of > motion would > be helpfull. > > I often meet even top level rugby players who claim big squats, but > I call > them knee bends. Once we start to use full depth squats they find > improvements in some of the phases of the game. Especially front row > forwards. At one of the big 5 SA teams recently I saw players doing > front > squats where their butts didn't get lower than their knees. It > seemed to me > that the point of front squats is the depth. So I often use the > examples > above to help the rugby players visualise the need for deeper > squats. Front > row forwards are easier to convince as a scrum is a real ego > killer. If you > get drilled in a game, apart from the humiliation, the pain of geting > drilled in a scrum gets tight forwards listening, but backs and > back row > forwards are difficult to convince as they have this whole ego > thing and > getting proper depth would mean smaller loads at first, damaging to > the hard > iron man ego. > > Best Regards > Nick Tatalias > Johannesburg > South Africa > > > > > > The late Dr. Siff commented several times that there is confusion > > between mimicry and specificity. The squat movement is a general > > strength movement - there is no need with it to try and mimic a > sporting > > movement. The squat greatly strenthens muscles necessary for knee > > extension and hip extension - both of which are used in many > sporting > > movements, including sprinting and also scrums in rugby. > > > > But the movement is really not that specific to the mechanics of > running > > or jumping. For one thing, as sprint coach Charlie Francis points > out, > > it is very slow where running and sprinting are in another > universe in > > terms of speed. As the person squatting nears full extension they > slow > > down and reduce force while the sprint start has the person > speeding up > > and increasing force at this point. Jumping also illustrates this > basic > > difference. > > > > There has to be some mechanism to transfer strength gains in > squats to > > speed. Powerlifters can squat huge loads, but they are generally > slow > > sprinters. Zatsiorsky makes a comment in one of his books about the > > transfer of strength to speed being exceedingly difficult. > > > > So I would argue, as Dr. Siff did, that for most athletes at most > times > > the deep squat is a better movement than any partial squat. The > person > > who full squats and gains 10% strength sees that 10% transfered to a > > partial squat. The partial squatter who gains 10% sees little of > no gain > > in the deep portion. In the full squat the person squats less > weight so > > there is less force on the knee structures during amortization. > As well > > the hard surfaces of the thigh/calve contact area and thigh/torso > > contact area are absorbing force during this critical period. > > > > If the athlete has extremly slender legs this may not be the > case. So > > you could argue this person should not be performing the full > squat and > > if flexibility is an issue such that poor technique results the > person > > should not be doing a full squat. But almost everyone else probably > > should be doing full squats at the very least in warm-up sets. > > > > For the rugby player, especially forwards, full back and front squat > > should be a staple. I would add in depth jumps during certain > phases to > > strengthen during yielding phases. I would certainly be looking at > > cleans or power cleans to create rate of force development and help > > transfer strength to speed or speed strength. The good thing about > > cleans is that maximal force is being created during the period just > > before full extension of the hip and knee - far more specific to > rugby > > than a squat. > > > > Nick Tatalias wrote: > > > > > Tom > > > > > > In your last post you wrote: " However, there is no mirror in > front to > > > check > > > form but to me I thought I squatted low enough. Plus when in > sport do > > you > > > need to squat past 90degree knee flexion? However, I will work > on that. " > > > > > > I want you to think about several situations in rugby where you > bend > > your > > > knees more than 90 degrees. > > > > > > 1. As a scrum half you have to bend down to dig a ball out the > back of > > the > > > ruck simulate that position and look at your knee bend (and hip > > > flexion for > > > that matter). You are probably bending your knees past 90o. To > execute a > > > pass you have to drive out of that position extending the knees > and hips > > > from this very bent over position. Developing strength and > power in both > > > knee extension and hip extension from a very flexed position is > > important. > > > > > > 2. Furthermore imagine as you pick the ball up from the scrum the > > > opposition prop jumps the offside line and pins you to the > floor with > > your > > > feet still under you (studs stick in the ground), how bent are > your > > knees? > > > If you have trained very deep squats your knee tendons and > ligaments > > have > > > experienced that load and that joint angle before (or at least > close > > > to it) > > > and so you will have adapted to some extent and lesson your > chance of > > > injury. > > > > > > 3. If you are tackled (or made a tackle) and have to jump back > up again > > to > > > get to the back of the next ruck, you will need to be able to > bounce up > > > quickly from a position of very bent knees. > > > > > > People often make that statement about knee flexion past 90o when > > > referring > > > to sprinters, but think about what happens in the course of a > game. Its > > > probably a good idea to break down many aspects of the game and > the > > > movements to see where your training should go. > > > > > > Best Regards > > > Nick Tatalias > > > Johannesburg > > > South Africa > > Hobman Saskatoon, Canada Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 21, 2007 Report Share Posted May 21, 2007 , Nick, and This debate is quite interesting, it throws us some new considerations on exercise selection. What I find many S & C coaches do is pick an exercise based on what is available (E.G. squats = mainly quads, bench = mainly chest, triceps etc...) without really thinking about what is specifically needed in a given event. Even the clean was designed as a competition lift for weightlifters and not designed around maximising specific adaptation for athletes. What specific exercises would you recommend for a sprinter who's sole aim is to sprint as fast as possible in a straight line (discounting agility for now)... acceleration phases and top speed phases The squat maybe a functional exercise in that it generally prepares the relevant musculature to produce force. But, it is limited in its use for peak performance in that transfer diminishes and may even impair speed if concentrated on too much. Thus if we were to design a resistance exercise (and not pick one that already existed) to enhance sprinting performance (acceleration and top speed phases) what innovative exercise would you use? - Would it have to be a unilateral exercise to be specific (or is this mimicry), or would this incorporate too much balance and reduce force production overload and thus transfer? - Would we pick a specific range of motion to train through, or just go through the full range? - Would you split the sprint up to train the knee, ankle, hip separately to get the specifics right at each joint. Or is this too separate would the exercise have to follow the same pattern as the desired event (training all in order Hip -> knee -> ankle) and transfer co-ordination and central motor pattern neural adaptations? - If you use extra weight on the movement where would you put it? In weightlifting movements the weight is moved right the way from the hands, is this specific to the sprinter? - What takes priority the actual velocity of movement or intended velocity of movement? Sprinting is a very simple activity, and if you want you could justify using squats and cleans because of the areas of the body they work. But I would prefer to design exercises around adaptation goals rather than what is available in the textbook to use. I am currently working with sprinters and considering all of these factors... Based on your experience is going into this much depth actually going to transfer training effects further or is it gust academia for the sake of it? Gallyer, Bolton, UK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 21, 2007 Report Share Posted May 21, 2007 Regarding various strength protocols for sprint training: You might wish to look at Barry Ross's book, Underground Secrets to Faster Running. Barry has spent some time putting together a strength training protocol based upon the ground support force research currently being conducted at Rice University. Barry did a seminar at Rice, and some of the grad students currently involved in Dr. Weyand's research (and who are also competitive runners) are following the protocol and have provided favorable feedback based upon their results both on the track and in the lab. The concept seems to fit your profile: a sprinter who's sole aim is to sprint as fast as possible in a straight line. I 'tested' the protocol for over three months prior to last year's track season, very much liked the results, and we're now in the second year of implementing the program. I've experimented with just about every kind of strength training program over the past thirty-two years. This model is safe, efficient, and effective for the kids I coach. My high school athletes--boys and girls--kids enjoy deadlifting, get very strong quite quickly, and most importantly, there has been a significant measurable carry-over to their ability to produce and sustain higher end meters per second speed. Ken Jakalski Lisle HS Lisle, Illinois Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 21, 2007 Report Share Posted May 21, 2007 You have to squat deep enough to activate the hamstring group. The squat is not really a quad exercise - in fact as a trainer of athletes I think you have to quit worrying about 'muscles' and start worrying about movement. So for a sprinter I would do squats. I may add bands or chains to the back squat, but I would have the athlete squat deep if there are no ROM issues to prevent it. I would add in power snatches rather than cleans or high pulls because I think it is easier to teach the person to use the hip and knee extension in the power snatch than in the clean. I would use a glute/ham/gastroc machine (Dr. Yessis has an excellent design I believe). Those would be my primary exercises for knee extension, hip extension and plantar flexion. I may add other exercises to address specific concerns or if I feel the sprinter is in a rut, but you could do those three pretty much forever and cover the necessary strength. I would add in a whole pile of other exercises to focus on ROM in the foot/ankle and hip area, but strength wouldn't be the issue. I'd add in some upper body to help with arm pump and for some balance. But the squat, power snatch and G-H-G would be my basic movements. I like to keep it simple. For top speed and acceleration I would stick to the track. Specificity rules and I would be spending most of my time sprinting and doing sprint starts. I think the weight room can help with strength, but you have to be specific. If you want to run fast - run fast. I'd be looking at near maximal speeds and try and factor in recovery to allow as much sprint training as I could. I would limit strength and GPP work to 20% or less of my time spent training. > , Nick, and > > This debate is quite interesting, it throws us some new > considerations on > exercise selection. What I find many S & C coaches do is pick an > exercise > based on what is available (E.G. squats = mainly quads, bench = mainly > chest, triceps etc...) without really thinking about what is > specifically > needed in a given event. Even the clean was designed as a > competition lift > for weightlifters and not designed around maximising specific > adaptation for > athletes. > > What specific exercises would you recommend for a sprinter who's > sole aim is > to sprint as fast as possible in a straight line (discounting > agility for > now)... acceleration phases and top speed phases > > The squat maybe a functional exercise in that it generally prepares > the > relevant musculature to produce force. But, it is limited in its > use for > peak performance in that transfer diminishes and may even impair > speed if > concentrated on too much. > > Thus if we were to design a resistance exercise (and not pick one that > already existed) to enhance sprinting performance (acceleration and > top > speed phases) what innovative exercise would you use? > > - Would it have to be a unilateral exercise to be specific (or is this > mimicry), or would this incorporate too much balance and reduce force > production overload and thus transfer? > > - Would we pick a specific range of motion to train through, or > just go > through the full range? > > - Would you split the sprint up to train the knee, ankle, hip > separately to > get the specifics right at each joint. Or is this too separate > would the > exercise have to follow the same pattern as the desired event > (training all > in order Hip -> knee -> ankle) and transfer co-ordination and > central motor > pattern neural adaptations? > > - If you use extra weight on the movement where would you put it? In > weightlifting movements the weight is moved right the way from the > hands, is > this specific to the sprinter? > > - What takes priority the actual velocity of movement or intended > velocity > of movement? > > Sprinting is a very simple activity, and if you want you could > justify using > squats and cleans because of the areas of the body they work. But I > would > prefer to design exercises around adaptation goals rather than what is > available in the textbook to use. I am currently working with > sprinters and > considering all of these factors... Based on your experience is > going into > this much depth actually going to transfer training effects further > or is it > gust academia for the sake of it? > > Gallyer, > Bolton, UK > > Hobman Saskatoon, Canada Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 21, 2007 Report Share Posted May 21, 2007 This thread seems to have leaned towards sprinting, something which I have no real specialsim, so I will try not to be too specific to that. The discussion has asked us to consider which should be used in a program mimicry or specificity and how they should be applied. I tend to think it is more a question of how they can be complemented in the most time efficient way. Where training time is key and the athlete is experienced why not use a complex of functional lifts and specific exercises. One option would be maximal squats followed 3 mins later by a 10-15 metre sprint start (I appreciate most facilities wont accomodate this, but it illustrates the point). This would utilise the potentiation affect of the squat to increase sprint speed (or other explosive, sport specific tasks), allow gains in strength and maximise training time efficiency. This could be ideal for an in-seson maintenance activity. A review can be found in Docherty, Robbins, Hodgson (2004) Complex Training Revisited. Strength and Conditioning Journal. Mark Helme Wakefield, UK. ============================= Hobman wrote: You have to squat deep enough to activate the hamstring group. The squat is not really a quad exercise - in fact as a trainer of athletes I think you have to quit worrying about 'muscles' and start worrying about movement. So for a sprinter I would do squats. I may add bands or chains to the back squat, but I would have the athlete squat deep if there are no ROM issues to prevent it. I would add in power snatches rather than cleans or high pulls because I think it is easier to teach the person to use the hip and knee extension in the power snatch than in the clean. I would use a glute/ham/gastroc machine (Dr. Yessis has an excellent design I believe). Those would be my primary exercises for knee extension, hip extension and plantar flexion. I may add other exercises to address specific concerns or if I feel the sprinter is in a rut, but you could do those three pretty much forever and cover the necessary strength. I would add in a whole pile of other exercises to focus on ROM in the foot/ankle and hip area, but strength wouldn't be the issue. I'd add in some upper body to help with arm pump and for some balance. But the squat, power snatch and G-H-G would be my basic movements. I like to keep it simple. For top speed and acceleration I would stick to the track. Specificity rules and I would be spending most of my time sprinting and doing sprint starts. I think the weight room can help with strength, but you have to be specific. If you want to run fast - run fast. I'd be looking at near maximal speeds and try and factor in recovery to allow as much sprint training as I could. I would limit strength and GPP work to 20% or less of my time spent training. > , Nick, and > > This debate is quite interesting, it throws us some new > considerations on > exercise selection. What I find many S & C coaches do is pick an > exercise > based on what is available (E.G. squats = mainly quads, bench = mainly > chest, triceps etc...) without really thinking about what is > specifically > needed in a given event. Even the clean was designed as a > competition lift > for weightlifters and not designed around maximising specific > adaptation for > athletes. > > What specific exercises would you recommend for a sprinter who's > sole aim is > to sprint as fast as possible in a straight line (discounting > agility for > now)... acceleration phases and top speed phases > > The squat maybe a functional exercise in that it generally prepares > the > relevant musculature to produce force. But, it is limited in its > use for > peak performance in that transfer diminishes and may even impair > speed if > concentrated on too much. > > Thus if we were to design a resistance exercise (and not pick one that > already existed) to enhance sprinting performance (acceleration and > top > speed phases) what innovative exercise would you use? > > - Would it have to be a unilateral exercise to be specific (or is this > mimicry), or would this incorporate too much balance and reduce force > production overload and thus transfer? > > - Would we pick a specific range of motion to train through, or > just go > through the full range? > > - Would you split the sprint up to train the knee, ankle, hip > separately to > get the specifics right at each joint. Or is this too separate > would the > exercise have to follow the same pattern as the desired event > (training all > in order Hip -> knee -> ankle) and transfer co-ordination and > central motor > pattern neural adaptations? > > - If you use extra weight on the movement where would you put it? In > weightlifting movements the weight is moved right the way from the > hands, is > this specific to the sprinter? > > - What takes priority the actual velocity of movement or intended > velocity > of movement? > > Sprinting is a very simple activity, and if you want you could > justify using > squats and cleans because of the areas of the body they work. But I > would > prefer to design exercises around adaptation goals rather than what is > available in the textbook to use. I am currently working with > sprinters and > considering all of these factors... Based on your experience is > going into > this much depth actually going to transfer training effects further > or is it > gust academia for the sake of it? > > Gallyer, > Bolton, UK > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 21, 2007 Report Share Posted May 21, 2007 , My choices won't sound very innovative. The movements that make my primary list for all athletes who run and jump are the ones that happen on their feet, and either begin with or move through the universal athletic position. Maybe it sounds simplistic but I'm big on skillful movements that involve ground reaction force, unguided resistance, and quality effort one rep at a time. Bilateral and unilateral, maximum strength and speed strength - yes to each. The younger/closer to the novice end of the continuum the athlete is, the less specialized I'll try to get. The more experienced/advanced, the more specialized I'll get in terms of high power, RFD, short ground response and so on. But the menu generally includes some variant of O-lifts, squats, lunges, step ups, plyos and so on. Pretty vanilla but an effective strategy for assigning developmentally appropriate skill progressions and workloads within a finite menu. Having said that, GRFs aren't the only mechanics important in sprinting. The forces involved in leg recovery are pretty remarkable as well, as anyone who has strained a hamstring while sprinting can affirm. I'm a big fan of RDLs and Glute-ham raises. Regarding range of motion, Loren Seagrave has developed a 4-point athlete's mission statement that reads: Big Force - Short Time - Proper Direction - Optimal ROM. The more you think about that, the more profound it becomes. Generally distal joints move through smaller ROMs during natural movements like running; and proximal joints through larger ROMs. As we all know, many athletes acquire some significant mobility limitations, and strength training is part of the solution. When squatting, for example, I won't preach full depth if it affects an athlete's ability to maintain sound posture. And I'll generally allow them to crop ROM a bit as load increases. I've never bought " full range of motion " as a universal rule. I'm rambling. Hopefully that's useful? Regards, Plisk Excelsior Sports, Shelton CT www.excelsiorsports.com ===================== , Nick, and This debate is quite interesting, it throws us some new considerations on exercise selection. What I find many S & C coaches do is pick an exercise based on what is available (E.G. squats = mainly quads, bench = mainly chest, triceps etc...) without really thinking about what is specifically needed in a given event. Even the clean was designed as a competition lift for weightlifters and not designed around maximising specific adaptation for athletes. What specific exercises would you recommend for a sprinter who's sole aim is to sprint as fast as possible in a straight line (discounting agility for now)... acceleration phases and top speed phases The squat maybe a functional exercise in that it generally prepares the relevant musculature to produce force. But, it is limited in its use for peak performance in that transfer diminishes and may even impair speed if concentrated on too much. Thus if we were to design a resistance exercise (and not pick one that already existed) to enhance sprinting performance (acceleration and top speed phases) what innovative exercise would you use? - Would it have to be a unilateral exercise to be specific (or is this mimicry), or would this incorporate too much balance and reduce force production overload and thus transfer? - Would we pick a specific range of motion to train through, or just go through the full range? - Would you split the sprint up to train the knee, ankle, hip separately to get the specifics right at each joint. Or is this too separate would the exercise have to follow the same pattern as the desired event (training all in order Hip -> knee -> ankle) and transfer co-ordination and central motor pattern neural adaptations? - If you use extra weight on the movement where would you put it? In weightlifting movements the weight is moved right the way from the hands, is this specific to the sprinter? - What takes priority the actual velocity of movement or intended velocity of movement? Sprinting is a very simple activity, and if you want you could justify using squats and cleans because of the areas of the body they work. But I would prefer to design exercises around adaptation goals rather than what is available in the textbook to use. I am currently working with sprinters and considering all of these factors... Based on your experience is going into this much depth actually going to transfer training effects further or is it gust academia for the sake of it? Gallyer, Bolton, UK ==================== Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 23, 2007 Report Share Posted May 23, 2007 By innovative the work I am currently doing with athletes is being integrated with an MSc project whereby we must develop an innovative exercise designed to enhance sport performance without injuring the athlete. Although I don't entirely agree with the word innovative over effective I see where the work is directing us (designing an exercise to fit an athlete's specific sport rather than designing the athlete around a pre-determined exercise). It is interesting to see different points of view with a no (or at least not all the time), and a yes to full squats, and go and do deadlifts. Some points I have considered are below: - The deep squat may activate (and train) the hamstrings... However, is there a better way to train the hamstrings than deep squatting for the sprinter? - The hip angle is massively different when the hamstrings are activated in the deep squat vs. upright sprinting.. flexion towards less flexion in the deep squat vs. slight flexion into hyperextension for the sprint (ROM considerations... is the training effect going to transfer?; sorry I haven't got exact angles for you here but hopefully you get what I'm saying)... What specifically are we training in the squat with respect to movements over muscles? Is the squat useful? Consider the hip and knee angles... The squat starts to train force output at flexion angles far greater than the associated angles of those during the contact phase of upright sprinting (a slightly bent leg, or single leg quarter squat), AND the squat stops training the movement at the point where the body is upright and the legs are straight, the hips in sprinting go into hyperextension... does the training movement need to train hyperextension of the hip? - It was recommended to train movements not muscles yet the same person recommended deep squats as they train the hamstring muscles (train muscle not movements)... with the point above is this deep squat a useful movement to train? Or do we overload the muscle not movement? - Bands and chains was another thought provoking idea I liked as these add additional resistance when the movement is in 'full swing' and counteracts the effects of the already moving bar. But here I go again with more questions... If we increase in speed (stretch-shorten cycle) through a ROM of movement in the field should we add resistance (to resist acceleration) to the same ROM in the weight room just because this option is available or should we chose not to use this option? I don't think any of this is entirely wrong or entirely right, this is just something the S & C coach would have to question and justify each time (a question I did not use in my original post: should we focus on movement specificity or overload and adapt muscles in a specific way?). This is the age old function vs. specificity, where I would probably argue that specificity and functionality are the same when applied correctly in strength and conditioning, as specificity is specific adaptation taken from the training into the sport. Thus a specific exercise may look similar to the event or not at all like the event, it would be the adaptation (or at least justifiable methods, predicting specific adaptation) that determines specificity. Back to the original question... - Not just a question of squats but if we were to justify an exercise for acceleration and top speed for a sprinter what would it be? - What would it specifically train? - What wouldn't it train / what else would have to be trained? Things I feel may be important to specific adaptation: - Specific adaptation to movements (train movement = physiological adaptation = enhanced performance via transfer): -- ROM -- Force specificity -- Time of force applied -- RFD - Specific adaptation to physiological overload discounting movements (physiological adaptation = enhanced performance via transfer): -- Work length -- Work intensity -- Rest length -- Rest intensity -- Muscle activated -- EMG overload / other specific physiological overload Any others? How many exercise would be required? I have critically questioned most points as I do with my own work, I hope I haven't misquoted anyone though within this process. What I want to do was understand the justifiable reasons why the exercises are done so I can go and apply the principles of this, rather than simply follow a set program. But like I said before: am I talking complete academic rubbish here or is this applicable? Gallyer, Bolton, UK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 23, 2007 Report Share Posted May 23, 2007 " Gallyer " wrote: Back to the original question... - Not just a question of squats but if we were to justify an exercise for acceleration and top speed for a sprinter what would it be? - What would it specifically train? - What wouldn't it train / what else would have to be trained? Things I feel may be important to specific adaptation: - Specific adaptation to movements (train movement = physiological adaptation = enhanced performance via transfer): -- ROM -- Force specificity -- Time of force applied -- RFD - Specific adaptation to physiological overload discounting movements (physiological adaptation = enhanced performance via transfer): -- Work length -- Work intensity -- Rest length -- Rest intensity -- Muscle activated -- EMG overload / other specific physiological overload Any others? How many exercise would be required? Casler writes: Hi , I have a company called TRI-VECTOR, where I have explored some of the elements you are looking for. Additionally I have also " developed " method and direction for a couple areas you have not mentioned. I would be happy to share these with you to see if they might offer a " direction " for your project, but with one request. Since I don't have the facilities to perform research or projects on the same scale, I would request that if you accept and use the information and concepts that I be cited as providing it, and so I can point to your project as verification. If you don't find it useful, interesting or practical, no problem. I feel there are a couple key elements, that move it to a very " sports action specific " area, which are not easy to train, and many times less difficult actions are employed which likely offer compromised result. Please e-mail me privately, if I can help. Regards, Casler TRI-VECTOR 3-D Force Systems Century City, CA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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