Re: Re: Grass Fed Info

[Guest guest]

You know, there is something none of you have taken into consideration when you talk about grass fed only milk/beef. In many parts of the country, in the 50's there was testing done by exploding different types of bombs. Do you all remember that? There are several forms of radiation that penitrated the ground. Here in parts of Idaho, people are now experiencing cancers and all types of medical malidies and are dying because they drank the milk from their cows that were grass fed when they were kids. I don't know how much of that is left in the ground, but considering the decades of chemicals poured into the ground, that got into the ground water, etc. just how safe is any of the ground and ground water in this country?

The government only recognizes certain areas. The "Downwinders" in Idaho are trying to get the government to recognize that there are additional areas that have been affected. What gets me is that these people are younger then I am and I'm glad I wasn't here at that time. I've even been looking for a lab to test Margie's milk, but no one will do it because the fed doesn't want to admit there may be a problem.

There is good and bad in every part of farming and in drinking raw milk. Graining your cows is the least of the the problems in my thinking.

K.C.

Re: Grass Fed Info

I understand Carol's frustration. Her intentions were not onlycompletely misunderstood, but she also proved the future of RAW Milkfor the masses is bleak if the farmer's are unwilling to listen totheir customer's concerns and recommendations. Carol's information wassound. Dr. Mercola does insist that 100% grass-fed diet is how youshould feed your cows (someone mentioned they would listen to Dr.Mercola if he told them how to feed their cows.):PLEASE BE KIND AND TRIM YOUR POSTS WHEN REPLYING!Visit our Raw Dairy Files for a wealth of information!http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/files/

[Guest guest]

trust10449 wrote:

" "she also proved the future of RAW Milkfor the masses is bleak if the farmer's are unwilling to listen totheir customer's concerns and recommendations." "

This suck's....I guess our $$$'s and consumer demand will dictate all this...the one's that want to resist and not use their COMMON SENSE....will be left out! I DEMAND grass-fed meats...and if I can't get them, I WON'T BUY! I bet that would wake up these dinosaur (lazy) farmers that won't do the research (or have the concern...). Let them eat their own grain fed junk. I'd rather grow and eat my homegrown sprouts and eat patured eggs before I would eat a grain fed animal!

" "Carol's information wassound. Dr. Mercola does insist that 100% grass-fed diet is how youshould feed your cows, (though we mightn't know the hardships ofraising livestock ourselves), should be proactive in pressing our milksources for 100% GRASS-FED raw dairy:" "

Look...I may (probably...) not be the most intelligent person on this group, but doesn't it seem EASIER to raise cows on GRASS, I mean...LET THEM OUT ON PASTURE...how hard is that??? Why use equipment, and time, and fossil fuels, and everything else just to give the animal some grain....For some reason I smell another reason for this.....$$$$$$'s! It's NOT about our health...if it was, all would be grass feeding their animals. Simple as that. It's how FAST can I get my $$'s and haw FAT can I get it to get more $$'s. HUH????

" "This was Carol's intention. It was not selfishly for her own healtheither. She was giving the farmers who care, the heads up on thehealth advantages of RAW milk and Organic Grass-fed farming as well asthe potential for high demand in the near future." "

God Bless Carol....she, like me, are at least trying to get some COMMON SENSE out there....either figure it out or lose out....my $$$'s won't be going in your pockets I PROMISE YOU THAT! So keep on grain feeding...it's YOUR business (Ha, Ha) again....eat your own grain-fed meat...there are plenty of other unhealthy people out there that'll buy that inferior product, just like they buy many other inferior products...and that is what grain fed meat IS....NO ONE who understands health can argue with that simple little statement...just try it!! There is ALOT of research out there if anyone would like to take a shot at it!! Go for it....but you better educate yourself first... a little research can do wonders...

" "if everyone starts demanding100% Grass-Fed, it will take some of the profit out of your hardearned farming bucks to stay competitive." "

BINGO! Maybe that'll teach 'em....is this ALL that this country is about....$$$'s (No wonder everything is all screwed up!!)

" "There arealready people willing to pay big bucks for 100% grass fed meats. " "

Yeah, me and Carol...and when there are more of us, the prices will eventually moderate.

" "Notto mention RAW milk from McAfee's 24/7 organic pastured cows." "

Where is this...could I possible get milk and butter shipped to me from them?

" "If Iwasn't spending all of MY hard earned money supporting organic farming(I only buy organic, free-range, and shade-grown/fair trade food.) Iwould be able to be more choosey about how my milk and meat are farmed. " "

GOOD FOR YOU....and God bless you! :-)

" "The problem with food today is that it IS for-profit. Anythingfor-profit has a natural tendancy to be a quantity over qualityoperation." "

Exactly my point....can't people see where we are going ?

" " can anybody sell food if it doesn't really belong tothem in the first place? People should have been able to pick theirapples off of any tree in the world without having to pay." "

OK,I don't knowabout THAT one....I shoot people that trespass on MY land...how can you say that, if YOU owned the land and PLANTED the trees, and CARED for them all those years...aren't you entitled to SOMETHING for your work? This is what makes the world go round. But not GOUGING people for INFERIOR food products.

" "Everyoneshould have a car AND a cow. I think of food as means of survivalrather than a need for coupons, carts and cash." "

Great thoughts...not practical, but I really wish more people FELT that way....

" "Alas, we do place a value on convenience. As such, if I could geteverything I needed straight from a farm," "

This is pretty much what I do...maybe more demand, and farmers will WAKE UP!! I drive by so many farms that just sit there and do nothing but grow "feed corn" then "junk soybeans" then "feed corn" then "junk soybeans" etc....year after year.... and aren't these the same poor farmers that complain they don't make enough, and end up "selling the farm"?? I must be missing something REAL obvious or something !??!!??!!

" "I would have no problemspending more money on the healthiest of foods rather than wasting iton expensive TV's with surround sound and digital high definitionPlasma screens that only display and promote much of what isdestroying our world today. If I knew that some of that money wasgoing toward healthier soil, air, water, and food...hell yea I'd bewilling to pay more for my food." "

AMEN brother!!!!!Got rid of all my media pressure a year ago...ALL I need is some stupid little box telling me what I should be buying myself to eat, and how I should be living, and what I should be thinking about.... PULLEAZE....

I dont condone the name-calling, singling out of groups of people,and picking apart of the e-mails that Carol resorted to, but who am Ito condone anything...I've sinned. I just am glad that Carol said whathad to be said. Even at the risk of having lost her valuable opinionon this matter from *OUR* RAW Dairy Forums!" "

If people ran her off...shame on you....whatare you doing here if this isn't about the health of our civilization. But you CAN'T be thin skinned when it comes to these things...we are going to have to FIGHT it all the way, and be strong on our demands, and use our $$$'s like a vote for our demands!

" "GRASS-FED meats ARE tougher and Gamey because they are raisedappropriately not finished off with grains. As consumer's get moresavvy, they won't buy the "grass-fed and grain finished" *quality*statement. That could just be another way of saying raised in thepasture, fattened in the feedlot. The highest quality in my opinion isthe healthiest and that mean's highest in CLA/OMEGA 3's AKA 100%GRASS-FED!Just My buck fit-tee.TonyWho is not a Farmer himself, But has much respect for the deep-organicfamily farmer who strives to bring the very best food to his/her tableand respects the soil more than the royal." "

Great post....you sound like a very informed, INTELLIGENT guy Tony. I thoroughly enjoyed your comments. I'm anxious to hear more from you...I'm pretty new here, and I thought I'd chime right in on this, and this is something I am VERY passionate about.

I have a dream that all small communities will begin to be more self sufficient and provide food for their local peoples. I can see greenhouses in schools, feeding the children local, organically grown veggies, and teaching them where their food comes from, and how to respect that, and provide for themselves.

I can see large community greenhouses that feed the entire community and sell the excess to another market. Everybody locally "does their part" and everyone shares and barters with each other. Livestock grazing on the surrounding pastures , providing superior protein sources for the residents. Is this possible someday? I bet we wouldn't need as many "doctors"!!

PLEASE BE KIND AND TRIM YOUR POSTS WHEN REPLYING!Visit our Raw Dairy Files for a wealth of information!http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/files/

[Guest guest]

" "Tinybabe wrote:

You know, there is something none of you have taken into consideration when you talk about grass fed only milk/beef. In many parts of the country, in the 50's there was testing done by exploding different types of bombs. Do you all remember that? There are several forms of radiation that penitrated the ground. Here in parts of Idaho, people are now experiencing cancers and all types of medical malidies and are dying because they drank the milk from their cows that were grass fed when they were kids. I don't know how much of that is left in the ground, but considering the decades of chemicals poured into the ground, that got into the ground water, etc. just how safe is any of the ground and ground water in this country?

The government only recognizes certain areas. The "Downwinders" in Idaho are trying to get the government to recognize that there are additional areas that have been affected. What gets me is that these people are younger then I am and I'm glad I wasn't here at that time. I've even been looking for a lab to test Margie's milk, but no one will do it because the fed doesn't want to admit there may be a problem.

There is good and bad in every part of farming and in drinking raw milk. Graining your cows is the least of the the problems in my thinking.

K.C. " "

I "just might" not be thinking straight on this one, but here goes....where do you think the grains are grown at.....my guess would be that it "probably" is grown in the same dirt that the GRASS is growing in, so WHAT in the world would be "better" about grain fed ?????

Your comment about the lab disturbs me....that kind of stuff smells of controversy. How can the government (that WE are supposed to own...) dictate what we can test....there has got to be some kind of slime going on there....It's hard to believe they can get away with this. Is anybody watching the govt.?? , and where are those people now. I would somehow DEMAND that my milk was tested. I'd raise a VERY big stink about THAT! Maybe try to get it tested somewhere else, or be dishonest about it's source so it could get tested. If they can be dishonest....SO CAN WE!

--

Steve

PLEASE BE KIND AND TRIM YOUR POSTS WHEN REPLYING!Visit our Raw Dairy Files for a wealth of information!http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/files/PLEASE BE KIND AND TRIM YOUR POSTS WHEN REPLYING!Visit our Raw Dairy Files for a wealth of information!http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/files/

[Guest guest]

I've pretty much stayed out of much of this discussion except for a brief comment earlier. I'm not exactly happy with the tone the whole thing gets to taking. I happen to live in Ohio, too, and have done grass dairy and beef for five or six years now. It didn't happen overnight, of course, but it can be done.

Yoder

Another thing to consider, alongside with K.C.'s point about contamination, it that in many parts of the USA we are grazing animals on land and soil that was never naturally a grassland. I live in Ohio, were the land was pretty much all forests. We don't have all the proper nutrients and minerals in our soils to grow grass that will supply a cow with all her needs. Places like New Zealand were supposed to have grasslands and therefore the grass is of a better quality then in places where the soil supported forests.PLEASE BE KIND AND TRIM YOUR POSTS WHEN REPLYING!Visit our Raw Dairy Files for a wealth of information!http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/files/

[Guest guest]

I agree with you about the grain and grass being grown all over this country in ground that possibly has radioactivity (all types, here it's the iodine type) left over. That's why I seriously doubt there are any really organic farms/dairies out there anymore. Sure, they don't use the chemicals, use "approved" substances, but what about the water, grass, grain, etc. if it's grown in an area the government refuses to disclose is contaminated?

As far as making noise, there is a lady here that is dying of cancer and is one of the "Downwinders". They have had government officials, state, scientists, and just about everyone you can imagine to prove what has happened and the government won't include the area because that means they would have to put out money and pay these people and their families for the damage they have caused. Can you imagine the amount of money they would have to put out all over the country if they admitted how much of it is affected?

It's easier to ignore it, cut down more trees, ruin the environment and just go out of office, leaving the devistation for someone else to worry about. The only problem is it has been affecting people since the 50's and no one is doing a damn thing about it and never will. Yes, there are certain people who have received benefits from the government, but those are in areas where wide spread damage has been done.

Is there any doubt why this country leads the world in various types of cancer? The most the government can do is worry about the vast number of people who are Baby Boomers and what their medical costs will be when they are in their 60's, 70's and 80's.

K.C.

Re: Re: Grass Fed Info

" "Tinybabe wrote:

You know, there is something none of you have taken into consideration when you talk about grass fed only milk/beef. In many parts of the country, in the 50's there was testing done by exploding different types of bombs. Do you all remember that? There are several forms of radiation that penitrated the ground. Here in parts of Idaho, people are now experiencing cancers and all types of medical malidies and are dying because they drank the milk from their cows that were grass fed when they were kids. I don't know how much of that is left in the ground, but considering the decades of chemicals poured into the ground, that got into the ground water, etc. just how safe is any of the ground and ground water in this country?

The government only recognizes certain areas. The "Downwinders" in Idaho are trying to get the government to recognize that there are additional areas that have been affected. What gets me is that these people are younger then I am and I'm glad I wasn't here at that time. I've even been looking for a lab to test Margie's milk, but no one will do it because the fed doesn't want to admit there may be a problem.

There is good and bad in every part of farming and in drinking raw milk. Graining your cows is the least of the the problems in my thinking.

K.C. " "

I "just might" not be thinking straight on this one, but here goes....where do you think the grains are grown at.....my guess would be that it "probably" is grown in the same dirt that the GRASS is growing in, so WHAT in the world would be "better" about grain fed ?????

Your comment about the lab disturbs me....that kind of stuff smells of controversy. How can the government (that WE are supposed to own...) dictate what we can test....there has got to be some kind of slime going on there....It's hard to believe they can get away with this. Is anybody watching the govt.?? , and where are those people now. I would somehow DEMAND that my milk was tested. I'd raise a VERY big stink about THAT! Maybe try to get it tested somewhere else, or be dishonest about it's source so it could get tested. If they can be dishonest....SO CAN WE!

--

Steve

PLEASE BE KIND AND TRIM YOUR POSTS WHEN REPLYING!Visit our Raw Dairy Files for a wealth of information!http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/files/PLEASE BE KIND AND TRIM YOUR POSTS WHEN REPLYING!Visit our Raw Dairy Files for a wealth of information!http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/files/PLEASE BE KIND AND TRIM YOUR POSTS WHEN REPLYING!Visit our Raw Dairy Files for a wealth of information!http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/files/

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

Thanks for repying! I am not unreasonable if I could understand why things are done the way they are done. Would you say that MOST farmers are just like you? If they are, then me, and MANY other people are way mistaken. I would pesonally love to buy milk from you...you sound like a responsible farmer and reasonably do your best! I would think a "little" grain a times would not be a big deal...I feel that there are 24 hours in a day....and how long do you milk? Obviously, if you mostly only feed grains at milking and for little treats...that is a VERY small proportion of grain to grass. I can't see that being detrimental at all. But I don't know, I'd like to know the "real story" .Many opinions out there...how do consumers find THE TRUTH?

You can't blame some of us who really actually ARE concerned with our own health and the health of our loved ones. We do the research , and, well, there is ALOT of condtradictory info out there. That's why I'm here...to learn "straight from the cow's (or goat's) mouth! ...So to speak.

Do you believe in MOSTLY grass fed animals? I think you do, I most definately was not refering to you! :-)

Do not many farmers feed excessive grains to their cows? Maybe I'm misinformed, I'd like to know! I thought many of them did....that's why we were having this conversation....

Supplements are not a problem to me. I take HEALTHY supplements (mostly whole food) all the time, and I demand the best. Do you see anything wrong with that? When you buy "tennis shoes" and pay "power bills" don't you "expect" (demand...) a certain level of quality? That's all I'm trying to get across. I think we probably don't actually differ much on that. And please don't put words in my mouth, I don't think anyone is uncapable of learning....it's being open to change and better ideas ( or actually, going BACK to the way thing were supposed to be. There was a day when we couldn't farm grains...how did the poor cow make it this far then? Farmers had no grains to even give them anyways....how did things work back then?)

We know farmers are busting their butts....just try growing veggies for YOURSELF....

.....I don't rant...I buy what I feel is best for me and my loved ones, I belonged to a share in Wisconsin...boy I miss that.....he was an organic, biodynamic dairy farmer. Great guy, a member of the WAPF, he's the one that turned me on to all of that. We got along great and we all understood what was going on there. He demanded the best product, and so did we! We talked and everything was great.He didn't show me how to milk though :-( ... I bet he would've if I'd have asked!! There are people out there that aren't doing things "the same old way", nothing wrong with that!

Hey...we all need bucks...I just want to get what I pay for!

, you sound like a wonderful woman...please don't take me wrong. I'd like to kind of think we are all on the same team....we just disagree over a few of the plays! I'm just trying to learn, and tell it the way i've seen it (maybe so far, from the outside looking in).

--

Steve ( give me a teet...I'll grab it! )

PLEASE BE KIND AND TRIM YOUR POSTS WHEN REPLYING!Visit our Raw Dairy Files for a wealth of information!http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/files/

PLEASE BE KIND AND TRIM YOUR POSTS WHEN REPLYING!Visit our Raw Dairy Files for a wealth of information!http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/files/PLEASE BE KIND AND TRIM YOUR POSTS WHEN REPLYING!Visit our Raw Dairy Files for a wealth of information!http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/files/

[Guest guest]

The contamination doesn’t didapper

w/ heat treatment…..there are probably lots of people that were affected

in much smaller ways by shipped milk and other farm products. The affect was

just diluted since it was mixed with products from other areas.

www.MajestyFarm.com

It must be obvious that liberty

necessarily means freedom to choose foolishly as well as wisely; freedom to

choose evil as well as good; freedom to enjoy the rewards of good judgment, and

freedom to suffer the penalties of bad judgment. If this is not true, the word

" freedom " has no meaning. – Ben

Moreell

From: Tinybabe

Sent: Saturday, December 11, 2004

6:07 AM

To: RawDairy

Subject: Re: Re: Grass

Fed Info

You know, there is

something none of you have taken into consideration when you talk about grass

fed only milk/beef. In many parts of the country, in the 50's there was

testing done by exploding different types of bombs. Do you all remember

that? There are several forms of radiation that penitrated the

ground. Here in parts of Idaho,

people are now experiencing cancers and all types of medical malidies and are

dying because they drank the milk from their cows that were grass fed when

they were kids. I don't know how much of that is left in the ground, but

considering the decades of chemicals poured into the ground, that got into the

ground water, etc. just how safe is any of the ground and ground water in this

country?

The government only

recognizes certain areas. The " Downwinders " in Idaho are trying to get

the government to recognize that there are additional areas that have been

affected. What gets me is that these people are younger then I am and I'm

glad I wasn't here at that time. I've even been looking for a lab to test

Margie's milk, but no one will do it because the fed doesn't want to admit

there may be a problem.

There is good and bad in

every part of farming and in drinking raw milk. Graining your cows is the

least of the the problems in my thinking.

K.C.

Re: Grass Fed Info

I understand Carol's frustration. Her intentions

were not only

completely misunderstood, but she also proved the

future of RAW Milk

for the masses is bleak if the farmer's are

unwilling to listen to

their customer's concerns and recommendations.

Carol's information was

sound. Dr. Mercola does insist that 100% grass-fed

diet is how you

should feed your cows (someone mentioned they

would listen to Dr.

Mercola if he told them how to feed their cows.):

PLEASE BE

KIND AND TRIM YOUR POSTS WHEN REPLYING!

Visit our Raw Dairy Files for a wealth of

information!

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/files/

PLEASE BE

KIND AND TRIM YOUR POSTS WHEN REPLYING!

Visit our Raw Dairy Files for a wealth of

information!

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/files/

[Guest guest]

" "Tinybabe wrote:" "

(tb) " "I agree with you about the grain and grass being grown all over this country in ground that possibly has radioactivity (all types, here it's the iodine type) left over. That's why I seriously doubt there are any really organic farms/dairies out there anymore. Sure, they don't use the chemicals, use "approved" substances, but what about the water, grass, grain, etc. if it's grown in an area the government refuses to disclose is contaminated? " "

Yeah, I hate thinking about all that stuff. It just frustrates me when I try to understand what they were thinking when they did all that "stuff", and I can't do anything about it anyways. But we can help the future by "demanding" better food production practices by putting in a vote with our dollars... I guess ,for me, it is what I'm NOT getting extra when I purchase "organic" foodstuffs. And it's a vote against big agri-business, and I feel that's important. I'm not going to support the big, rusty cog.

(tb) " "As far as making noise, there is a lady here that is dying of cancer and is one of the "Downwinders". They have had government officials, state, scientists, and just about everyone you can imagine to prove what has happened and the government won't include the area because that means they would have to put out money and pay these people and their families for the damage they have caused. Can you imagine the amount of money they would have to put out all over the country if they admitted how much of it is affected? " "

It would probably blow our minds....

(tb) " "It's easier to ignore it, cut down more trees, ruin the environment and just go out of office, leaving the devistation for someone else to worry about. The only problem is it has been affecting people since the 50's and no one is doing a damn thing about it and never will. Yes, there are certain people who have received benefits from the government, but those are in areas where wide spread damage has been done. " "

Maybe groups like this one can make things different.....that's why I'm so adamant about doing thing "right", and not doing it like everybody else is doing....look where that has gotten us.

(tb) " "Is there any doubt why this country leads the world in various types of cancer? The most the government can do is worry about the vast number of people who are Baby Boomers and what their medical costs will be when they are in their 60's, 70's and 80's. " "

They'd better be worried....if they live that long.... and we just keep doing things the "same old way" . I mean, they deny most of us access to raw dairy products, but a fifth of Jack s, and a carton of "reds" is available on just about every street corner in America. Hey...if you want to drink and smoke yourself silly, go for it. , just don't drive. But don't deny me access to possibly one of the healthiest beverages on the planet! Along with all the products that go along with it. This particular point disgusts me, and I CANNOT understand that one.....at all, it HAS to be about $'s.

Try to have a good day Tinybabe....

--

Steve

PLEASE BE KIND AND TRIM YOUR POSTS WHEN REPLYING!Visit our Raw Dairy Files for a wealth of information!http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/files/PLEASE BE KIND AND TRIM YOUR POSTS WHEN REPLYING!Visit our Raw Dairy Files for a wealth of information!http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/files/PLEASE BE KIND AND TRIM YOUR POSTS WHEN REPLYING!Visit our Raw Dairy Files for a wealth of information!http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/files/PLEASE BE KIND AND TRIM YOUR POSTS WHEN REPLYING!Visit our Raw Dairy Files for a wealth of information!http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/files/

[Guest guest]

Excellent commentary,

The differences between meat production

and dairy production need to be recognized by consumers, as well as local

variabilities.

I am all for talking to consumers about

why and how I do things, and am way o the positive side of forage based

production, but not all creatures are going to be adequately nourished with

local grasses.

www.MajestyFarm.com

It must be obvious that liberty necessarily means freedom to

choose foolishly as well as wisely; freedom to choose evil as well as good;

freedom to enjoy the rewards of good judgment, and freedom to suffer the

penalties of bad judgment. If this is not true, the word " freedom "

has no meaning. – Ben Moreell

From:

Sent: Saturday, December 11, 2004

9:34 AM

To: RawDairy

Subject: Re: Grass Fed

Info

Tony, you actually misread the post re: Dr.

Mercola, the writer said

she would listen to his feeding recommendations

when she saw his

degree in ruminent nutrition. Personally, I

consider him a good

starting point for learning about nutrition, but

he just goes too

far. After reading an his comments on the benefits

of nutrients in

grape skins and his reccomendation of just eating

the skin and

tossing the insides because he didn't approve of

the natural sugars

my respect started to slip. And now that he is

promoting luxury

crusies with seminars with him I have even less.

He's a wonderful

advocate for raw milk products, but he's in no way

an authority on

feeding livestock.

I think everyone who has a cow wants to be grain

free, we are all

aware of the benefits- www.eatwild.com is an

excellent source for

info. All the family cow people I know are very

aware of all the

newest grass fed research and findings. We aren't

the ones who need

to be educated by our potential consumers on

grassfeeding, it's the

consumers who have to realize that with dairy cows

most of us can't

be completely grass free without negatively

impacting our cows. And

they need to realize that we are all working on lowing

our grain

inputs and selecting genetics that will do better

on grass. Our

whole point with Carol was that with the genetics

availible today

with our cows we cannot go completely without

grain without

seriously comprimising our cows health and production.

I feed the

bare minimum to my cow to maintain her weight and

milk. Its a hard

balance and I am constantly adjusting how much she

gets. I think

that compared to milk from commerical dairys feed

anything from

grain to cardboard to chicken manure milk from

cows like mine who

are feed hay, pasture, and the grain her body

requires is far

better. 100% grassfed is a good goal, but it won't

happen overnight

in the USA.

Producing grassfed beef is a whole different arena

with concern to

feeding, a beef animal is not a dairy animal and

have very different

energy needs. We just had our first steer

butchered in August and if

you are getting tough and gamey grassfed meats you

need a new

supplier. Ours was tender and mild. Our steer was

a purebred

Guernsey (not a favorite for commerical beef production) who was

raised purely on pasture, local hay, and mother's

milk for all of

his 12 months and 1 week of life. The butcher was

fascinated with

him, as he had worked with grassfed before but had

never had a

carcass like ours. It aged differently and he was

really impressed.

The steers live weight was 1100 lbs, hanging was

527, and we brought

home around 400 lbs of meat.

Another thing to consider, alongside with K.C.'s

point about

contamination, it that in many parts of the USA we

are grazing

animals on land and soil that was never naturally

a grassland. I

live in Ohio,

were the land was pretty much all forests. We don't

have all the proper nutrients and minerals in our

soils to grow

grass that will supply a cow with all her needs.

Places like New

Zealand were supposed to have grasslands and

therefore the grass is

of a better quality then in places where the soil

supported forests.

PLEASE BE

KIND AND TRIM YOUR POSTS WHEN REPLYING!

Visit our Raw Dairy Files for a wealth of

information!

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/files/

[Guest guest]

Mark McAfee uses grains for his cows:

From his website:

“”’Only pasture, natural

grains, and approved organic homeopathic methods are used to feed and care for

the cows”””

Like all of us here, he pastures 24/7

EXCEPT when they are being milk, and eating

their grain.

Ironically, most of us are NOT dependent

upon dairying income, most of the small dairy producers are diversified, or

have off farm or not farm related jobs paying the mortgage,

If consumers are going to be demanding and

patronizing, and refuse to listen to actual producers but defer to others who

have never grabbed a teat in their life, when farmers are busting their

butts to give quality products, and are being approached by consumers on a

rant, the end result will be that farmers will continue to produce smaller

amounts for those who are appreciative.

I have wonderful customers and share

owners. They share their concerns, we talk about the options and general situations,

and I have a couple that have trained to milk to I can occasionally have an

evening away.

If I had to deal with people who were so

intent on telling me that they DEMAND I do it their way or I will go down,

I would quickly cease to do business with them.

This whole point has been totally skewed.

A comment was made about why don’t we just leave them in the pasture.

Hey, wake up guys! WE DO. That is what happens.

BUT we are NOT going to delete any supplements for the sake of imagined purity

on the part of people who have no real hands on experience or knowledge of the

difference between dairying and meat production. There is PLENTY of abundant 100%

pastured beef out there. Dairying requires a different parameter.

My herd raises their own calves, on

pasture. Those bull calves never get anything other than grass and hay and

mineral and mama milk till they are hamburger. BUT the mom’s could not

feed them and give me milk for you if they were not adequately nourished to

reflect the extra energy, calcium, protein, etc expenditure.

Please, Please think hard about it. People

take CLO for health reason to supplement what may be lacking or unavailable in

their diet. They add other mineral, and vitamins, and supplements as needed. Certainly

fish oil is not something that one can consider “natural” in a ‘lack

of processing, people “naturally” would eat it way” Why are

you trying to be so puritanical about the wonderful mamas who are sharing their

milk? All of us micro farmers are doing the best we can with our local

conditions, and available genetics to produce good products that are beneficial

to many. If you don’t want it, fine. But continuing to insult us

with disparaging profit (who buys shoes for our kids? And pays the power bill?)

and acting as though we have no idea of learning is inappropriate and not well

tolerated.

www.MajestyFarm.com

It must be obvious that liberty

necessarily means freedom to choose foolishly as well as wisely; freedom to

choose evil as well as good; freedom to enjoy the rewards of good judgment, and

freedom to suffer the penalties of bad judgment. If this is not true, the word

" freedom " has no meaning. – Ben

Moreell

From: Steve

Benson

Sent: Saturday, December 11, 2004

9:28 AM

To: RawDairy

Subject: Re: Re: Grass

Fed Info

trust10449

wrote:

" " she also proved the future of RAW

Milk

for the masses is bleak if the farmer's are

unwilling to listen to

their customer's concerns and

recommendations. " "

This suck's....I guess our $$$'s and

consumer demand will dictate all this...the one's that want to resist and not

use their COMMON SENSE....will be left out! I DEMAND grass-fed meats...and if I

can't get them, I WON'T BUY! I bet that would wake up these dinosaur (lazy)

farmers that won't do the research (or have the concern...). Let them eat

their own grain fed junk. I'd rather grow and eat my homegrown sprouts and eat

patured eggs before I would eat a grain fed animal!

" " Carol's information was

sound. Dr. Mercola does insist that 100% grass-fed

diet is how you

should feed your cows, (though we mightn't know

the hardships of

raising livestock ourselves), should be proactive

in pressing our milk

sources for 100% GRASS-FED raw dairy: " "

Only pasture, natural grains, and approved organic homeopathic

methods are used to feed and care for the cows

" " This was Carol's intention. It was not selfishly for her own

health

either. She was giving the farmers who care, the heads up on the

health advantages of RAW milk and Organic Grass-fed farming as well as

the potential for high demand in the near future. " "

God Bless Carol....she, like me, are at least trying to get some COMMON SENSE

out there....either figure it out or lose out....my $$$'s won't be going in

your pockets I PROMISE YOU THAT! So keep on grain feeding...it's YOUR business

(Ha, Ha) again....eat your own grain-fed meat...there are plenty of other

unhealthy people out there that'll buy that inferior product, just like they

buy many other inferior products...and that is what grain fed meat IS....NO ONE

who understands health can argue with that simple little statement...just try

it!! There is ALOT of research out there if anyone would like to take a shot at

it!! Go for it....but you better educate yourself first... a little research

can do wonders...

" " if

everyone starts demanding

100% Grass-Fed, it will take some of the profit out of your hard

earned farming bucks to stay competitive. " "

BINGO! Maybe that'll teach 'em....is this ALL that this country is

about....$$$'s (No wonder everything is all screwed up!!)

" " There

are

already people willing to pay big bucks for 100% grass fed meats. " "

Yeah, me and Carol...and when there are more of us, the

prices will eventually moderate.

" " Not

to mention RAW milk from McAfee's 24/7 organic pastured cows. " "

Where is this...could I possible get milk and butter shipped to me from them?

" " If I

wasn't spending all of MY hard earned money supporting organic farming

(I only buy organic, free-range, and shade-grown/fair trade food.) I

would be able to be more choosey about how my milk and meat are farmed. "

"

GOOD FOR YOU....and God

bless you! :-)

" " The problem with food today is that it IS for-profit.

Anything

for-profit has a natural tendancy to be a quantity over quality

operation. " "

Exactly my point....can't

people see where we are going ?

" " can

anybody sell food if it doesn't really belong to

them in the first place? People should have been able to pick their

apples off of any tree in the world without having to pay. " "

OK,I don't knowabout THAT

one....I shoot people that trespass on MY land...how can you say that, if YOU

owned the land and PLANTED the trees, and CARED for them all those

years...aren't you entitled to SOMETHING for your work? This is what makes the

world go round. But not GOUGING people for INFERIOR food

products.

" " Everyone

should have a car AND a cow. I think of food as means of survival

rather than a need for coupons, carts and cash. " "

Great thoughts...not

practical, but I really wish more people FELT that way....

" " Alas, we do place a value on convenience. As such, if I

could get

everything I needed straight from a farm, " "

This is

pretty much what I do...maybe more demand, and farmers will WAKE UP!! I drive

by so many farms that just sit there and do nothing but grow " feed

corn " then " junk soybeans " then " feed corn " then " junk

soybeans " etc....year after year.... and aren't these the same poor

farmers that complain they don't make enough, and end up " selling the

farm " ?? I must be missing something REAL obvious or something !??!!??!!

" " I would

have no problem

spending more money on the healthiest of foods rather than wasting it

on expensive TV's with surround sound and digital high definition

Plasma screens that only display and promote much of what is

destroying our world today. If I knew that some of that money was

going toward healthier soil, air, water, and food...hell yea I'd be

willing to pay more for my food. " "

AMEN

brother!!!!!Got rid of all my media pressure a year ago...ALL I need is some

stupid little box telling me what I should be buying myself to eat, and how I

should be living, and what I should be thinking about.... PULLEAZE....

I dont condone the name-calling, singling out of groups of people,

and picking apart of the e-mails that Carol resorted to, but who am I

to condone anything...I've sinned. I just am glad that Carol said what

had to be said. Even at the risk of having lost her valuable opinion

on this matter from *OUR* RAW Dairy Forums! " "

If people ran her

off...shame on you....whatare you doing here if this isn't about the health of

our civilization. But you CAN'T be thin skinned when it comes to these

things...we are going to have to FIGHT it all the way, and be strong on our

demands, and use our $$$'s like a vote for our demands!

" " GRASS-FED meats ARE tougher and Gamey because they are

raised

appropriately not finished off with grains. As consumer's get more

savvy, they won't buy the " grass-fed and grain finished " *quality*

statement. That could just be another way of saying raised in the

pasture, fattened in the feedlot. The highest quality in my opinion is

the healthiest and that mean's highest in CLA/OMEGA 3's AKA 100%

GRASS-FED!

Just My buck fit-tee.

Tony

Who is not a Farmer himself, But has much respect for the deep-organic

family farmer who strives to bring the very best food to his/her table

and respects the soil more than the royal. " "

Great

post....you sound like a very informed, INTELLIGENT guy Tony. I thoroughly

enjoyed your comments. I'm anxious to hear more from you...I'm pretty new here,

and I thought I'd chime right in on this, and this is something I am VERY

passionate about.

I have a dream

that all small communities will begin to be more self sufficient and provide

food for their local peoples. I can see greenhouses in

schools, feeding the children local, organically grown veggies, and

teaching them where their food comes from, and how to respect that, and provide

for themselves.

I can see

large community greenhouses that feed the entire community and sell the excess

to another market. Everybody locally " does their part " and everyone

shares and barters with each other. Livestock grazing on the surrounding

pastures , providing superior protein sources for the residents. Is this

possible someday? I bet we wouldn't need as many " doctors " !!

PLEASE BE

KIND AND TRIM YOUR POSTS WHEN REPLYING!

Visit our Raw Dairy Files for a wealth of

information!

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/files/

PLEASE

BE KIND AND TRIM YOUR POSTS WHEN REPLYING!

Visit our Raw Dairy Files for a wealth of

information!

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/files/

[Guest guest]

>>>>I want to strongly recommend that you walk a mile in a

farmer's shoes.

Bill Dunlap>>>>

I would settle for from here to the barn and back in mid February a few

timesJ

www.MajestyFarm.com

It must be obvious that liberty

necessarily means freedom to choose foolishly as well as wisely; freedom to

choose evil as well as good; freedom to enjoy the rewards of good judgment, and

freedom to suffer the penalties of bad judgment. If this is not true, the word

" freedom " has no meaning. – Ben

Moreell

·

RawDairy-unsubscribe

·

[Guest guest]

This is just my opinion, but I think most people read only about what the big dairies and feed lots do. Most of the people I know, even those with smaller dairies (50 Jerseys or so) have enough acreage to grass feed, give good alfalfa hay and only give grain when milking. Small farms that have 1-10 cows do the same with the land they have. Most of us have our cows on their pasture 24/7 and may give goodies like veggies, fruits and the like when available because we treat our animals like pets (especially those of us with miniature cattle). And again, grain when milking and as a treat or to get a new heifer/bull calf used to us so we can work with them.

I have personally never seen anyone feed only grain, whether cow or goat people when they are a small operation. That would just be way too expensive.

I can totally understand your point of view and the other consumers on this list. That's why you are looking for good, clean, raw milk....to keep you and your families healthy. I believe that the producers on this list are after the same thing and since there are two sides to every point of view, there should be more out there for consumers to read. Not just what certain radical food groups want you to believe.

K.C.

RE: Re: Grass Fed Info

Hi ,

Thanks for repying! I am not unreasonable if I could understand why things are done the way they are done. Would you say that MOST farmers are just like you? If they are, then me, and MANY other people are way mistaken. I would pesonally love to buy milk from you...you sound like a responsible farmer and reasonably do your best! I would think a "little" grain a times would not be a big deal...I feel that there are 24 hours in a day....and how long do you milk? Obviously, if you mostly only feed grains at milking and for little treats...that is a VERY small proportion of grain to grass. I can't see that being detrimental at all. But I don't know, I'd like to know the "real story" .Many opinions out there...how do consumers find THE TRUTH?

You can't blame some of us who really actually ARE concerned with our own health and the health of our loved ones. We do the research , and, well, there is ALOT of condtradictory info out there. That's why I'm here...to learn "straight from the cow's (or goat's) mouth! ...So to speak.

Do you believe in MOSTLY grass fed animals? I think you do, I most definately was not refering to you! :-)

Do not many farmers feed excessive grains to their cows? Maybe I'm misinformed, I'd like to know! I thought many of them did....that's why we were having this conversation....

Supplements are not a problem to me. I take HEALTHY supplements (mostly whole food) all the time, and I demand the best. Do you see anything wrong with that? When you buy "tennis shoes" and pay "power bills" don't you "expect" (demand...) a certain level of quality? That's all I'm trying to get across. I think we probably don't actually differ much on that. And please don't put words in my mouth, I don't think anyone is uncapable of learning....it's being open to change and better ideas ( or actually, going BACK to the way thing were supposed to be. There was a day when we couldn't farm grains...how did the poor cow make it this far then? Farmers had no grains to even give them anyways....how did things work back then?)

We know farmers are busting their butts....just try growing veggies for YOURSELF....

.....I don't rant...I buy what I feel is best for me and my loved ones, I belonged to a share in Wisconsin...boy I miss that.....he was an organic, biodynamic dairy farmer. Great guy, a member of the WAPF, he's the one that turned me on to all of that. We got along great and we all understood what was going on there. He demanded the best product, and so did we! We talked and everything was great.He didn't show me how to milk though :-( ... I bet he would've if I'd have asked!! There are people out there that aren't doing things "the same old way", nothing wrong with that!

Hey...we all need bucks...I just want to get what I pay for!

, you sound like a wonderful woman...please don't take me wrong. I'd like to kind of think we are all on the same team....we just disagree over a few of the plays! I'm just trying to learn, and tell it the way i've seen it (maybe so far, from the outside looking in).

--

Steve ( give me a teet...I'll grab it! )

PLEASE BE KIND AND TRIM YOUR POSTS WHEN REPLYING!Visit our Raw Dairy Files for a wealth of information!http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/files/

PLEASE BE KIND AND TRIM YOUR POSTS WHEN REPLYING!Visit our Raw Dairy Files for a wealth of information!http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/files/PLEASE BE KIND AND TRIM YOUR POSTS WHEN REPLYING!Visit our Raw Dairy Files for a wealth of information!http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/files/PLEASE BE KIND AND TRIM YOUR POSTS WHEN REPLYING!Visit our Raw Dairy Files for a wealth of information!http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/files/

[Guest guest]

Steve, it is the money. Take for example: I called to find out what is involved in getting licensed to sell raw milk in this state. There used to be a dairy, but it went out of business. Probably not in a good location. I explained that I didn't have a large operation, but was just interested what it would cost for a small dairy to become licensed, what specs the state would demand, etc.

The guy at the ag dept. told me "we wouldn't probably allow you to become licensed because it would hurt the big dairies." I asked him if he had any idea of the concept of FREE ENTERPRISE and he said it's a state decision.

So, you think it has something to do with money?

K.C.

PLEASE BE KIND AND TRIM YOUR POSTS WHEN REPLYING!Visit our Raw Dairy Files for a wealth of information!http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/files/PLEASE BE KIND AND TRIM YOUR POSTS WHEN REPLYING!Visit our Raw Dairy Files for a wealth of information!http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/files/

PLEASE BE KIND AND TRIM YOUR POSTS WHEN REPLYING!Visit our Raw Dairy Files for a wealth of information!http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/files/PLEASE BE KIND AND TRIM YOUR POSTS WHEN REPLYING!Visit our Raw Dairy Files for a wealth of information!http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/files/PLEASE BE KIND AND TRIM YOUR POSTS WHEN REPLYING!Visit our Raw Dairy Files for a wealth of information!http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/files/

[Guest guest]

,

Please don't let the venting of frustrated consumers get you down. One

thing I have noticed about the devotees of raw dairy is the almost

religious zealousness of the experience. We seem to have captured a

glimpse of the promised land in finally finding a food that is healthy

and uncorrupted and at the same time, there are so many impediments to

finding a convenient source for that food. There is also some

transference going on in being angry at the way agribusiness is stealing

the " organic " label and turning it into the same old poison we have

endured all these years.

Most people are perfectionists when it comes to their religions and it

shows in their intolerance of the realities of raising animals for food.

I tried to explain to one man how even if every farmer in America said

tomorrow " no more grain for our cows " , the cows have not been bred to

thrive without it. It could take a full generation to recapture the

genetics we lost over the past 50 years.

The last words of Weston A. Price were " teach, teach, teach " . It's part

of the fun of being on the cutting edge of a return to good food.

Nevertheless, it can wear you down. But heh, at least we don't have to

answer a national support line and explain things every day!

Keep up the good work. Your insights and experience are appreciated.

Langlois

john.langlois@...

lotzakdz wrote:

> Mark McAfee uses grains for his cows:

>

> From his website:

>

> “”’Only pasture, natural grains, and approved organic homeopathic

> methods are used to feed and care for the cows”””

>

> Like all of us here, he pastures 24/7

>

> EXCEPT when they are being milk, and eating their grain.

>

> Ironically, most of us are NOT dependent upon dairying income, most of

> the small dairy producers are diversified, or have off farm or not

> farm related jobs paying the mortgage,

>

> If consumers are going to be demanding and patronizing, and refuse to

> listen to actual producers but defer to others who have never grabbed

> a teat in their life, when farmers are busting their butts to give

> quality products, and are being approached by consumers on a rant, the

> end result will be that farmers will continue to produce smaller

> amounts for those who are appreciative.

>

> I have wonderful customers and share owners. They share their

> concerns, we talk about the options and general situations, and I have

> a couple that have trained to milk to I can occasionally have an

> evening away.

>

> If I had to deal with people who were so intent on telling me that

> they DEMAND I do it their way or I will go down, I would quickly cease

> to do business with them.

>

> This whole point has been totally skewed. A comment was made about why

> don’t we just leave them in the pasture.

>

> Hey, wake up guys! WE DO. That is what happens. BUT we are NOT going

> to delete any supplements for the sake of imagined purity on the part

> of people who have no real hands on experience or knowledge of the

> difference between dairying and meat production. There is PLENTY of

> abundant 100% pastured beef out there. Dairying requires a different

> parameter.

>

> My herd raises their own calves, on pasture. Those bull calves never

> get anything other than grass and hay and mineral and mama milk till

> they are hamburger. BUT the mom’s could not feed them and give me milk

> for you if they were not adequately nourished to reflect the extra

> energy, calcium, protein, etc expenditure.

>

> Please, Please think hard about it. People take CLO for health reason

> to supplement what may be lacking or unavailable in their diet. They

> add other mineral, and vitamins, and supplements as needed. Certainly

> fish oil is not something that one can consider “natural” in a ‘lack

> of processing, people “naturally” would eat it way” Why are you trying

> to be so puritanical about the wonderful mamas who are sharing their

> milk? All of us micro farmers are doing the best we can with our local

> conditions, and available genetics to produce good products that are

> beneficial to many. If you don’t want it, fine. But continuing to

> insult us with disparaging profit (who buys shoes for our kids? And

> pays the power bill?) and acting as though we have no idea of learning

> is inappropriate and not well tolerated.

>

>

>

> www.MajestyFarm.com

>

[Guest guest]

Most farmers. Well, I was referring to

most of the producers on this list. I believe, from what I have seen, they all

pasture their dairy animals and supplement with concentrates AS NEEDED for

their particular situation. Finding the TRUTH, as you say requires

communication both on the farmers and the consumers part. It is integral that

we listen to each other, and take a chance of not only disabusing erroneous

information, but learning new things. I generally feed corn portions in my

ration. BUT when I had a consumer who was having trouble w/ products, we worked

to se what the problem was. Not all farmers will be able to do this, but she

was a nursing mom, and I felt would really benefit from the raw dairy, so we

discovered, working together, than she was sensitive to something in the corn.

She is intolerant of corn in her diet, and extremely sensitive. Only one I have

know.

The “real” dairies near me~~3

of them that are grade A and sell commercially, one clips tails, feeds TMR, and

is relatively a confined operation. The other 2 are 24 hour pastured, and feed

a good amount of concentrate at milking, and in the winter silage is avail be

in bunks. I would drink milk from either of these 2. They are great folks,

conscientious, and minimal interventionist, very little antibiotic use, never would

have to worry about tainted tanks.

But I honestly do not have knowledge of

small (1-20) cow operations that do not 24-7 pasture. So from my perspective

see a delineation between the “big guys” and us micro-operators.

I know there are farmers, predominately

large, that way overdo grains (and newspapers, and donuts), so check out your

source. Ask and listen.

Dairy cows have traditionally been given

treats for production. If not grains, root veggies, fruit scraps. Etc.

I have a friend who is milking an angus

jersey cross that I am going to be purchasing from her. She gives about 4 gal a

day w/ 2x a day milking. She is much more efficient at keeping condition, but

on pasture only she was only giving 1 gal a day. w/ 4 # of concentrate she is

doing 4.

If all you need is one gal a day, fine. But

practically that is not really enough for most.

I had a goat who lived till 12 who for 6

years gave me a gal a day on fescue and beet pulp. Unfortunately, her traits didn’t

seem to pass to her daughters. I have a son that I am going to use for

breeding, and hope to see improvement from him, but she seemed an anomaly.

I am not attempting to paint consumers w/

a negative broad brush. As I mentioned, I have some wonderful consumers who

have become friends and supporters too. Honest communication and

thoughtful awareness of reality is the key to moving forward here.

Cows have been given grain for millennia.

Not the way agribusiness does it, as tmr, but as we, the micro dairies and

small producers do it, to help condition, aid production, and make them happy!

www.MajestyFarm.com

It must be obvious that liberty necessarily means freedom to

choose foolishly as well as wisely; freedom to choose evil as well as good;

freedom to enjoy the rewards of good judgment, and freedom to suffer the

penalties of bad judgment. If this is not true, the word " freedom "

has no meaning. – Ben Moreell

From: Steve Benson

Sent: Saturday, December 11, 2004

11:48 AM

To: RawDairy

Subject: RE: Re: Grass

Fed Info

Hi ,

Thanks for repying! I am not

unreasonable if I could understand why things are done the way they are done.

Would you say that MOST farmers are just like you? If they are, then me, and

MANY other people are way mistaken. I would pesonally love to buy milk from

you...you sound like a responsible farmer and reasonably do your best! I would

think a " little " grain a times would not be a big deal...I feel that

there are 24 hours in a day....and how long do you milk? Obviously, if you

mostly only feed grains at milking and for little treats...that is a VERY small

proportion of grain to grass. I can't see that being detrimental at all.

But I don't know, I'd like to know the " real story " .Many opinions

out there...how do consumers find THE TRUTH?

You can't blame some of us who

really actually ARE concerned with our own health and the health of

our loved ones. We do the research , and, well, there is ALOT of condtradictory

info out there. That's why I'm here...to learn " straight from the cow's

(or goat's) mouth! ...So to speak.

Do you believe in MOSTLY grass fed animals? I

think you do, I most definately was not refering to you! :-)

Do not many farmers feed excessive grains to

their cows? Maybe I'm misinformed, I'd like to know! I thought many of them

did....that's why we were having this conversation....

Supplements are not a problem to me. I

take HEALTHY supplements (mostly whole food) all the time, and I demand the

best. Do you see anything wrong with that? When you buy " tennis

shoes " and pay " power bills " don't you " expect "

(demand...) a certain level of quality? That's all I'm trying to get

across. I think we probably don't actually differ much on that. And please

don't put words in my mouth, I don't think anyone is uncapable of

learning....it's being open to change and better ideas ( or actually, going

BACK to the way thing were supposed to be. There was a day when we couldn't

farm grains...how did the poor cow make it this far then? Farmers had no grains

to even give them anyways....how did things work back then?)

We know farmers are busting their

butts....just try growing veggies for YOURSELF....

.....I don't rant...I buy what I feel is best for me and my loved ones, I belonged

to a share in Wisconsin...boy

I miss that.....he was an organic, biodynamic dairy farmer. Great guy, a

member of the WAPF, he's the one that turned me on to all of that. We got along

great and we all understood what was going on there. He demanded the best

product, and so did we! We talked and everything was great.He didn't show me

how to milk though :-( ... I bet he would've if I'd have asked!!

There are people out there that aren't doing things " the same old

way " , nothing wrong with that!

Hey...we all need bucks...I

just want to get what I pay for!

, you sound like a wonderful

woman...please don't take me wrong. I'd like to kind of think we are all on the

same team....we just disagree over a few of the plays! I'm just trying to

learn, and tell it the way i've seen it (maybe so far, from the outside looking

in).

--

Steve ( give me a teet...I'll grab it! )

PLEASE BE KIND AND TRIM YOUR POSTS WHEN REPLYING!

Visit our Raw Dairy Files for a wealth of

information!

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/files/

PLEASE

BE KIND AND TRIM YOUR POSTS WHEN REPLYING!

Visit our Raw Dairy Files for a wealth of

information!

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/files/

PLEASE

BE KIND AND TRIM YOUR POSTS WHEN REPLYING!

Visit our Raw Dairy Files for a wealth of

information!

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/files/

PLEASE

BE KIND AND TRIM YOUR POSTS WHEN REPLYING!

Visit our Raw Dairy Files for a wealth of

information!

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/files/

[Guest guest]

" "One thing I have noticed about the devotees of raw dairy is the almost religious zealousness of the experience. " "

You know....that might have some merit it to it.... I KNOW that I am a very odd bird, in that.... I pursue, and buy, and drink, and ferment! (...NOBODY I know, can believe I do THAT!!!!! )... raw milk The other day, i had a good friend over....and I was in the fridge and grabbed a jar of kefir to "take a swig".... and they almost tackled me and said "NO!, ...don't drink that!!"... ...they thought it was sour milk!!?!!!

When I told them what it was... I let them smell it, and they almost wanted to puke :-( !! ...and they told me "NOT to drink that" !!!....... I slugged it all, RIGHT in front of them...they about passed out...couldn't even watch me drink it without gagging.... :-) !! I LOVE kefir....I'm addicted...I love to smell my glass when I'm done drinking it... I love to look at it....it is WONDERFUL stuff!!! I LOVE IT.....I make the BEST kefir egg nog....GOD it's great....Kefir is a gift!!...Did I mention I LOVE it?....I know I'm obsessed....

OK...have any of you experienced things like this??? Friends freaking out over what you are consuming? I have...and I would reliably buy these products the rest of my life anyway... and i don't know ANYONE that would do that....(they ALL think I'm NUTSO....) I am SOLD on raw dairy...and will consume it the rest of my life....I know of NO ONE who consumes raw dairy but myself....NO ONE!. and I can't believe it....it is SOOO good!! :-)

I probably upset some people with the way i came off as an "elite" consumer....I am sorry, but I'm eventually going to become an "elite" producer!!! ...even if it's just for myself!!....sometimes I talk before I explain where I'm coming from, so people can "remind" me when i'm not perceiving things right. My point being, though.... that I can buy the"inferior" products anywhere....(Krogers and Cub Foods have them right now...and they're open.....) when i go and voluntarily spend more, and seek a better product...I kinda want a better product....do you blame me?, or should I just give up??? (...which I won't do anyways......but would like to hear your opinions or suggestions regardless.....), where are they???

You know.....I live in central Illinois....I own land in western Illinois...I was told by the farmer that I bought the 28 acres from...that the reason he bought it... ( he has BIG bucks...) was because of the value of the topsoil....it's supposed to be some of the best in the state...if I heard the name of the soil, I'd recognize it ....but I CANNOT find a reliable source of raw cow or goat milk, or organic veggies or fruits ANYWHERE locally....even if you get into a CSA in the summer...I know that *I* do not get enough of a variety of veggies or fruits to satisfy me.... If I didn't grow some of my own favorites...I'd be bummed.....

Organic Csa's are hard to break into around here...and not enough folks support the local organic farmers market...so that's kinda hit and miss....I guess not enough education or something....I talk it up...but everyone is too "busy"...

For a LONG time now....I CAN"T find any local, organic, free-range eggs for sale, anywhere....right now, I have to go to Krogers to get these Organic Valley "free-range" eggs...from who knows where.....and just "trust" that they are OK, because I want to eat raw eggs....I'd also like to start to use the shells, and grind them up for a calcium supplement, but I'd like to know where they are coming from.......AND I CAN'T GET THEM LOCALLY....so who knows....isn't that a shame???

I have a local organic farmer that I get my raw milk from....but not right now...the cows are dried up....and I get my beef from them too, and lamb, and goat, and chicken....( they feed "some" grain...but I have no options....they assure me it is minimal....) they raise chickens for eggs too...and they have connections for eggs here locally...and i can't even hardly get an egg from her....because they sell them ALL up towards a larger market in extreme northeast Illinois....( that attract's more $'s...guess we can't blame them, huh???? but I"M LOCAL????, what's up with that? She kinda fluffs around the subject when I approach her about it and really won't give me an answer...it's kinda weird...) ....all I am looking for is a local product I believe in....is this product nonexistent? If it is...I'll settle for the next best...but if I want a particular quality, and there is a demand...why

can't I get it???

I desparately want to spend my $$'s locally....am I the only one??? Seems that nobody gets that...."please support your local farmers" is what i preach....but everbody around here is too "busy" doing who knows what....to care...

Right now...because I want to drink GOOD kefir...I order raw goats milk every 7-10 days, from out of state...and pay dearly... I order 2 boxes of veggies from Timber Creek Farms, up by chicago, every 2 weeks...( they don't have enough business in our town to come every week.....so I spend hours packaging them away so they'll LAST 2 weeks...) That costs me around $120 a month....but, locally, I can't get that variety of veggies that are "organic" anywhere....So I spend, spend, spend....I don't know...I just believe in this s*^t.....I don't know what to say... ( this is what I endure because I'm fed up with feeling crappy all the time and want to feed my body right...and support what i believe in! ) ....I can't get it locally....I want to....but I can't.....I could seriously go on and on and on...I'm sure you all can believe that!! :-) That's why I am going to move out to my farm

in the spring and get some animals....and live simply and self sufficiently....I have no other way to get this food....and , frankly...the "world" sucks.....and everything that they think is important sucks....I want to live and be as healthy as i can be...so i can enjoy and appreciate all this that our creator has given us...it's there for our taking....

Please don't think I don't appreciate EVERYTHING you are doing to promote raw dairy.....It is a very important agenda.....and I want to be a part of it....but i think there is a nitch of consumers that would LOVE to aquire some local, organic, grass-fed meat and dairy...without out all the hassle....nobody i know would endure what i go through to get this "perfect food"...that's all we ( I ) would like to have...adequate access to these foodstuffs...why can't we find them??? Offer me some, and I'll buy some! :-) I don't own cows...so it's hard to always get enough cream to make butter...I'd love a connection for that. A while back I received some 4#'s of butter from peaceful.....you know who...., but now they are out till spring....where are the sources???? I live in Illinois, where are they.... I'll keep trying.... THIS is where I'm "coming" from....

--

" "There is also some transference going on in being angry at the way agribusiness is stealing the "organic" label and turning it into the same old poison we have endured all these years. " "

How can we stop this....I want to know....I want to be a part of the solution....let's come up with some solutions....

" "Most people are perfectionists when it comes to their religions and it shows in their intolerance of the realities of raising animals for food. I tried to explain to one man how even if every farmer in America said tomorrow "no more grain for our cows", the cows have not been bred to thrive without it. It could take a full generation to recapture the genetics we lost over the past 50 years. " "

See....I didn't know all of this. If this is true....then I believe we should just be grateful for what we get..... Sound like our "forefathers" really screwed things up for us....tell 'em " thanks alot....."

" "The last words of Weston A. Price were "teach, teach, teach". It's part of the fun of being on the cutting edge of a return to good food" "

There are alot of good articles in this months "mother earth news" about good , "real" food....I like to see that our influence is catching on.... has anyone seen all the good food articles in this months edition???? It's definitely worth picking up....

--

Steve (sorry for rattling on....)

..

[Guest guest]

Here in Idaho, there is a company that starts, with school children, a huge garden that the kids are trained to take care of. This takes place in Boise, the capital city of Idaho and takes in many schools.

We also have very active 4H and FFA throughout the state. In Emmett, where I live, you can drive anywhere and see cattle grazing in fields all over the area and beyond as you go towards the OR border.

Unfortunately, the schools feed the kids crap and always will, but their families, for the most part, are either farmers or have huge gardens.

The dream is out there, but not for the vast numbers of people in this country. That's why more and more people are opting out of the big cities and looking for small acreages.

But, it's not ever going to be like you wish.

K.C.

Re: Grass Fed Info

> >> I have a dream that all small communities will begin to be more self sufficient and provide food for their local peoples. I can see greenhouses in schools, feeding the children local, organically grown veggies, and teaching them where their food comes from, and how to respect that, and provide for themselves.> > I can see large community greenhouses that feed the entire community and sell the excess to another market. Everybody locally "does their part" and everyone shares and barters with each other. Livestock grazing on the surrounding pastures , providing superior protein sources for the residents. Is this possible someday? I bet we wouldn't need as many "doctors"!!> Wake up from your dream! This is not going to happen! People in today's 'hand it to me' and 'throw away' society are not willing to put in the long, hard, extreme cold/hot hours that it takes to do this. It is a grand idea, but not practical. Folks have tried these communities and failed because it is a fairy tale dream. You will see when you have your own land and livestock. It is a 24/7 lifestyle and most have to hold on to the in-town jobs as well. We wouldn't trade it for the world.PLEASE BE KIND AND TRIM YOUR POSTS WHEN REPLYING!Visit our Raw Dairy Files for a wealth of information!http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/files/

[Guest guest]

I wish everyone would start growing at least 2 veggies and one fruit tree for themselves. With the type of containers available now, even if someone lives in an apartment, they can grow corn, tomatoes, etc. With the advent of miniature fruit trees, all a person needs is a good sized pot and they can grow peaches, nectarines, citrus and apples.

The more people grow for themselves, the less they buy at the market and the more that is left over, which is a loss for the mass producers using pesticides, etc. the faster they will wake up to what people really want.

K.C.

Re: Grass Fed Info

>I have a dream that all small communities will begin to be more self sufficient and provide food for their local peoples. >Wake up from your dream! This is not going to happen! I just have to chime in here and say Bravo to the dream! There are many, many people and organizations working toward self-sufficiency and/or sustainable living (references available). Raw dairy is an important part of this as food is central to a strong local economy. It may not be the lifestyle most people would choose, but when the oil runs out this civilization will need to be retooled anyway. With new innovations like permaculture and deep organics, the workload of local food production can be lessened. I spent a few days on an island in Canada last year with about 20 fellow students at a place that used only solar power (yes, we had computers) and supported itself with a heritage garden and fresh-caught seafood. It was a real eye-opener about the quality of life that is possible. We all pitched in and the work of providing for ourselves went quickly. We can do SO much better in our daily lives -maybe not through new technologies or faster economic growth, but a different perspective on what we dream of. Thanks, Steve!Sara Washington StatePLEASE BE KIND AND TRIM YOUR POSTS WHEN REPLYING!Visit our Raw Dairy Files for a wealth of information!http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/files/

[Guest guest]

[KC]

I wish everyone would start growing at least 2 veggies and one fruit tree for

themselves. With the advent of miniature fruit trees, all a person needs is a

good sized pot and they can grow peaches, nectarines, citrus and apples.

K.C.

[]

KC, I agree.

I am working on getting an apple tree and a pear tree but I've been told by so

many that they are a bigger pain than it's worth. I'm told that the fruit won't

come out edible if I don't treat the trees with pesticides and herbicides.

Is this true?

I would've thought it's pretty much like other garden plants- maintenance

required but not nuisance like.

[Guest guest]

> []

> I am working on getting an apple tree and a pear tree but I've been told

> by so many that they are a bigger pain than it's worth. I'm told that the

> fruit won't come out edible if I don't treat the trees with pesticides and

> herbicides. Is this true? I would've thought it's pretty much like

> other garden plants- maintenance required but not nuisance like.

Maybe it depends on where you live, but I've grown apple trees in VT and

they were pretty carefree. I did not spray, and I did get a few worms in

some of the apples, but it wasn't a big deal to cut them up. Of course

you could spray them with dormant oil spray in the spring. This is fairly

benign, and smothers any insects that have over-wintered......

and the K9's

[Guest guest]



I have the Colonade (4) and the miniature apple and miniature nectarine that fruited this year. Waiting for the mini apricot and peaches next spring to flower and fruit.

The fruit is absolutely fantastic. I sent some apples to my folks in L.A., CA who only buy Fuji apples and they said they were better. The ones I sent were the Honey Crisp.

I didn't spray any of them and only sprinkled them with water and then Diatomacous Earth (natural). I can tell you that the mini apple was so laden with huge apples, one of the branches broke and I have to get the proper stuff to keep them up next year. The colonade grow up, but not out and they got to 6 ft and I had apples on two of them (the other two were planted the following year) and they were great big apples, crisp, juicy and full of flavor and I can't wait for more. The mini nectarine I thought wasn't going to do well, but, all the fruit was on the inside and when I looked I got mad because one chicken and my pea hen fly over the fence and had pecked several of the fruits. This winter I'm putting a wire protective fence around them. Oh yeah, I also have the last of the mini apricots. They said they didn't perform well, but I will see what I get next year. I can't see why they wouldn't do as well as the others. In the winter I take my cow and chicken poop and put it around the base of all the trees and plants and they just flourish. I do have semi dwarf plum and cherry and one plumcot. I do have to spray the plums with Seven because they get aphids so bad, there's nothing else I can do. But, none of the other trees are bothered by them.

You do have to use some type of insecticide, but I use DE and you just have to make sure the leaves are wet so the stuff sticks. You can eat the fruit the same day you apply DE because it's totally non-toxic. I put it on all but the apples early in the spring and then when it heated up. I only put it on the apples themselves as they grew because nothing seemed to be bothering the leaves. We have those nasty apple bugs here. Don't know what they are called. They son't seem to bother my one semi-dwarf apple tree or its fruit.

The minis all leafed out beautifully, but I had just planted them last year so I didn't expect fruit. Since they are usually 2 years old when you get them, they fruit the following year. God willin and the crik don't rise.

I've had a lime tree in a container and had limes off of it for 3 years, but last year it died. Don't know why, could have been my fault. Now I have a mini orange tree that I put into a 30 gal. trash can with holes on the bottom for drainage. Hopefully, it will never have to be transplanted. I think my lime tree got too root bound. Citrus needs acid food. That's the only difference.

All of my trees, except my citrus and tropicals are planted outside.

You will love them.

K.C.

RE: Re: Grass Fed Info

[KC] I wish everyone would start growing at least 2 veggies and one fruit tree for themselves. With the advent of miniature fruit trees, all a person needs is a good sized pot and they can grow peaches, nectarines, citrus and apples. K.C. [] KC, I agree. I am working on getting an apple tree and a pear tree but I've been told by so many that they are a bigger pain than it's worth. I'm told that the fruit won't come out edible if I don't treat the trees with pesticides and herbicides. Is this true? I would've thought it's pretty much like other garden plants- maintenance required but not nuisance like. PLEASE BE KIND AND TRIM YOUR POSTS WHEN REPLYING!Visit our Raw Dairy Files for a wealth of information!http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/files/

[Guest guest]



Actually dormant oil should be sprayed before they get leaf buds or you can smother them. I used an oil that is non-toxic and all of a sudden I can't think of it's name. I'll think of it and let you know.

K.C.

Re: Re: Grass Fed Info

> []> I am working on getting an apple tree and a pear tree but I've been told > by so many that they are a bigger pain than it's worth. I'm told that the > fruit won't come out edible if I don't treat the trees with pesticides and > herbicides. Is this true? I would've thought it's pretty much like > other garden plants- maintenance required but not nuisance like.Maybe it depends on where you live, but I've grown apple trees in VT and they were pretty carefree. I did not spray, and I did get a few worms in some of the apples, but it wasn't a big deal to cut them up. Of course you could spray them with dormant oil spray in the spring. This is fairly benign, and smothers any insects that have over-wintered...... and the K9's PLEASE BE KIND AND TRIM YOUR POSTS WHEN REPLYING!Visit our Raw Dairy Files for a wealth of information!http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/files/

[Guest guest]



KC wrote:

>Actually dormant oil should be sprayed before they get leaf buds or you can smother them.

That's true!

>I used an oil that is non-toxic and all of a sudden I can't think of it's name. I'll think of it and let you know.

Are you saying that Dormant Oil is toxic? I always assumed that it wasn't. Please let me know about the one that isn't as that would obviously be preferable :-)

Cheers,

and the K9's