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There is no actual scientific evidence to support these ideas on freezing by

Aajonus. This has been debated on the live foods group. Vinny Pinto, the

group owner is a scientist, and he says that Aajanous's claims in this area

have no scientific substance. I am not discrediting Aajanous, but I would

like to say he has quite a history amongst many who actually know him, of

being a little *off*, and I have heard true stories of some very odd things

in regards to him. He is an extremist, and I would take a lot of what he has

to say with a grain of salt. I myself follow much of the same diet he does,

and I am not by any means saying he does not have a lot of good advise, I am

merely saying to question what *anyone* tells you before making a concrete

decision about anything. I try to do a lot of research before I believe any

one person on any subject. There is way too much information out there that

may be good intentioned, but just is not true. I can pile through a stack of

health books, and find massive discrepancies in every one. Ignorance is

common, even amongst the educated, and we just have to be well informed when

making personal decisions, as informed as we possibly can. I have read quite

a few papers on freezing, and they all seem to say that freezing up to 3

months will not damage your food. Kefir grains for example can be frozen

this long, and used upon defrosting, this is in my opinion is pretty

indicative of freezing not harming the food. Aajanous claims that freezing

bursts the cell walls of the food, but this is redundant. Freezing contracts

food, heat expands. Expansion causes bursting, not contraction. I hope I

have not offended anyone in reference to Aajanous, but I felt it was best to

say something.

Blessings,

-Angel

Kirkland Washington

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No offense taken... I actually based it off of my own testing, but since I

don't have any " schooling " in the area, I am not used to being listened

to... so I always try to cite " bigger " sources of information. And my own

testing is a lot of gut instinct, combined with a whole lot of common sense,

and a touch of intelligence thrown in! lol

>

>Reply-To: RawDairy

>To: <RawDairy >

>Subject: Re: freezing

>Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 11:46:53 -0700

>

>There is no actual scientific evidence to support these ideas on freezing

>by

>Aajonus. This has been debated on the live foods group. Vinny Pinto, the

>group owner is a scientist, and he says that Aajanous's claims in this area

>have no scientific substance. I am not discrediting Aajanous, but I would

>like to say he has quite a history amongst many who actually know him, of

>being a little *off*, and I have heard true stories of some very odd things

>in regards to him. He is an extremist, and I would take a lot of what he

>has

>to say with a grain of salt. I myself follow much of the same diet he does,

>and I am not by any means saying he does not have a lot of good advise, I

>am

>merely saying to question what *anyone* tells you before making a concrete

>decision about anything. I try to do a lot of research before I believe any

>one person on any subject. There is way too much information out there that

>may be good intentioned, but just is not true. I can pile through a stack

>of

>health books, and find massive discrepancies in every one. Ignorance is

>common, even amongst the educated, and we just have to be well informed

>when

>making personal decisions, as informed as we possibly can. I have read

>quite

>a few papers on freezing, and they all seem to say that freezing up to 3

>months will not damage your food. Kefir grains for example can be frozen

>this long, and used upon defrosting, this is in my opinion is pretty

>indicative of freezing not harming the food. Aajanous claims that freezing

>bursts the cell walls of the food, but this is redundant. Freezing

>contracts

>food, heat expands. Expansion causes bursting, not contraction. I hope I

>have not offended anyone in reference to Aajanous, but I felt it was best

>to

>say something.

>Blessings,

>-Angel

>Kirkland Washington

>

>

>

>

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Freezing can actually cause extensive damage to cells. The ice

crystals that form from water in the cells act like millions of tiny

swords and can shred the cells. But all cells get shredded when we

chew and digest our food anyway, so I doubt that makes any difference.

Wouldn't the question be how do individual nutrients survive after

freezing? The answer to this would be different for each nutrient

you looked at. Some enzymes degrade if you so much as look at them

cross-eyed while others can only be destroyed following extreme

measures.

Jill

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Totally cool . In truth, the web is my favorite source of schooling when it comes to getting answers swiftly. I go to one of the main search engines, such as google, and type in whatever I am wanting evidence on, and just start piling through whatever I find. I look to the source of whatever information to determine what prejudice is affecting the source(all sources are based on prejudice, you just have to back up or disprove what they are saying). Of course instinct is very important, and I think you are very well in listening to your inner self. I myself recently have done a lot of things out of instinct, and later I found evidence to support my feelings. It would take quite a large leap of faith for me to get rid of my freezer though, I really do not know what I would do without it. I guess since canning is out of the question, and dehydrating at low temps is long and tedious for large amounts of food, I have wondered how to stock up otherwise in case of an emergency. I know that freezed goods will not last long if there is a power outage, but what does one do for food storage otherwise? If I had a root cellar, it would probably be easier I suppose. What do you think about this? This has been an issue very much on my mind, for I feel we all may need food storage in times to come.

Blessings,

-AngelKirkland Washington

No offense taken... I actually based it off of my own testing, but since I don't have any "schooling" in the area, I am not used to being listened to... so I always try to cite "bigger" sources of information. And my own testing is a lot of gut instinct, combined with a whole lot of common sense, and a touch of intelligence thrown in! lol

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You can actually soak it in raw milk, kefir, or EM for quite a length of time, and keep it fresh. I do this quite often with EM. I like the basic flavor though, so I most often just freeze it. You are right though, natural meats have a real short life span.

Blessings

-AngelKirkland Washington

there is no way one can buy good grassfed beef without freezing it. I have thought about that. At this point I rather eat frozen grassfed than Winn Dixie's fresh meat.

Rhoda

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Has anyone else tried vacumm packing? I use my food saver, and my natural

meat keeps fresher than conventional meat in the fridge that way... it stays

good for 3 - 4 weeks ( after that we have always eaten it! It might last

longer!)

>You can actually soak it in raw milk, kefir, or EM for quite a length of

>time, and keep it fresh. I do this quite often with EM. I like the basic

>flavor though, so I most often just freeze it. You are right though,

>natural meats have a real short life span.

> there is no way one can buy good grassfed beef without freezing it. I

>have thought about that. At this point I rather eat frozen grassfed than

>Winn Dixie's fresh meat.

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Has anyone else tried vacumm packing? I use my food saver, and my natural

meat keeps fresher than conventional meat in the fridge that way... it stays

good for 3 - 4 weeks ( after that we have always eaten it! It might last

longer!)

>You can actually soak it in raw milk, kefir, or EM for quite a length of

>time, and keep it fresh. I do this quite often with EM. I like the basic

>flavor though, so I most often just freeze it. You are right though,

>natural meats have a real short life span.

> there is no way one can buy good grassfed beef without freezing it. I

>have thought about that. At this point I rather eat frozen grassfed than

>Winn Dixie's fresh meat.

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At 01:09 PM 10/22/04 -0700, you wrote:

>You can actually soak it in raw milk, kefir, or EM for quite a length of

time, and keep it fresh. I do this quite often with EM. I like the basic

flavor though, so I most often just freeze it. You are right though,

natural meats have a real short life span.

Actually, I assumed Rhoda was referring to the same situation that is quite

common around here - when you buy a side of beef or whatever, it's

delivered already frozen. That's just the way the process works,

apparently. Not that I mind that. I'm not buying into the " freezing

is bad " theory either. ;)

MFJ

I just don't like it when you lump me in with everyone else in the world.

Because just like everyone else in the world, I wanna be speshul.

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At 01:09 PM 10/22/04 -0700, you wrote:

>You can actually soak it in raw milk, kefir, or EM for quite a length of

time, and keep it fresh. I do this quite often with EM. I like the basic

flavor though, so I most often just freeze it. You are right though,

natural meats have a real short life span.

Actually, I assumed Rhoda was referring to the same situation that is quite

common around here - when you buy a side of beef or whatever, it's

delivered already frozen. That's just the way the process works,

apparently. Not that I mind that. I'm not buying into the " freezing

is bad " theory either. ;)

MFJ

I just don't like it when you lump me in with everyone else in the world.

Because just like everyone else in the world, I wanna be speshul.

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I would second this opinion. And actually, the best example that

freezing is not a harmful thing to food is the Eskimo peoples, like the

Inuet. They froze a lot of the meats they ate, for obvious reasons.

When they were ready for more, they would go out to the outside igloo

and get a big frozen chunk fish or caribou meat out and slice it up.

They were some of the healthiest peoples on earth until they adopted a

western diet, and succumbed to a myriad of illnesses such as

alcoholism, diabetes,etc. They also fermented caribou to achieve some

of the same beneficial efffects that we get today from probiotic foods

such as yogurt, kefir, kiimchi and sauerkraut. And they had no

recorded cardiovascular disease and ironically, their diet consisted of

99.9% meats and saturated fats, including whale milk and seal blubber.

The difference was that they ate it raw.

Very interesting...so yes, I concur with this, that freezing is not a

bad thing at all. I hate it that Aajanous has propagated this rumor,

as he has so many other good things to say. It can be really very

discouraging to people because who has time to slaughter a calf every

day or even make a trip to the store every single day? Certainly not

me, with my homeschooling and busy life.

D.

On Oct 22, 2004, at 2:42 PM, RawDairy wrote:

>

> Message: 12

> Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 11:46:53 -0700

>

> Subject: Re: freezing

>

> There is no actual scientific evidence to support these ideas on

> freezing by

> Aajonus. This has been debated on the live foods group. Vinny Pinto,

> the

> group owner is a scientist, and he says that Aajanous's claims in this

> area

> have no scientific substance. I am not discrediting Aajanous, but I

> would

> like to say he has quite a history amongst many who actually know him,

> of

> being a little *off*, and I have heard true stories of some very odd

> things

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I would second this opinion. And actually, the best example that

freezing is not a harmful thing to food is the Eskimo peoples, like the

Inuet. They froze a lot of the meats they ate, for obvious reasons.

When they were ready for more, they would go out to the outside igloo

and get a big frozen chunk fish or caribou meat out and slice it up.

They were some of the healthiest peoples on earth until they adopted a

western diet, and succumbed to a myriad of illnesses such as

alcoholism, diabetes,etc. They also fermented caribou to achieve some

of the same beneficial efffects that we get today from probiotic foods

such as yogurt, kefir, kiimchi and sauerkraut. And they had no

recorded cardiovascular disease and ironically, their diet consisted of

99.9% meats and saturated fats, including whale milk and seal blubber.

The difference was that they ate it raw.

Very interesting...so yes, I concur with this, that freezing is not a

bad thing at all. I hate it that Aajanous has propagated this rumor,

as he has so many other good things to say. It can be really very

discouraging to people because who has time to slaughter a calf every

day or even make a trip to the store every single day? Certainly not

me, with my homeschooling and busy life.

D.

On Oct 22, 2004, at 2:42 PM, RawDairy wrote:

>

> Message: 12

> Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 11:46:53 -0700

>

> Subject: Re: freezing

>

> There is no actual scientific evidence to support these ideas on

> freezing by

> Aajonus. This has been debated on the live foods group. Vinny Pinto,

> the

> group owner is a scientist, and he says that Aajanous's claims in this

> area

> have no scientific substance. I am not discrediting Aajanous, but I

> would

> like to say he has quite a history amongst many who actually know him,

> of

> being a little *off*, and I have heard true stories of some very odd

> things

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I've been feeling the same thing... that's why I would rather be on a farm!

Food storage... I've been theorizing a few things... haven't had time to

research them yet... I've been concentrating on getting out of Idaho... and

trying to figure out where to go ... the kids, the cats, and I are all

breaking out in open lesions now, and I can't find any quality food here.

(We have determined that it is a direct " detox " of all the pesticides on

everything including our food.)

Anyways, food storage... how did the pioneers keep their meat? I believe

smoking was their method... they certainly didn't have freezers. What about

the Indians...the Plains Indians migrated with the buffalo, but how did they

keep the animal that they killed? They are not known for wasting anything...

and I don't recall ever reading or hearing anything about them killing one

every day! Maybe they killed one a week, and had enough people in the tribe

to consume it all in one week. So that is always a possibility... form a

small community to consume all of the slaughtered animal before it goes bad.

I have also heard about using the raw milk before... have you tried UNHEATED

honey (different from raw honey - not heated above 93 degrees artificially),

I think I remember hearing that unheated honey would help preserve... or

maybe a combination of things.

Let me know if I spark anything!

And as for a large leap of faith to get rid of the freezer... food is a very

important issue for me... if I don't eat properly, I would wither away and a

strong wind would be my end! My body doesn't asorb nutrients that have been

altered or synthetically produced (that was what the conventional doctor

told me, and what stemmed my decision to look into alternative medicine!)

So, when we took out all grains from the diet, I lost 2 inches, but not a

pound...I, unfortunately , did not gain any weight either (105 lbs.)... but

when I stopped eating cooked food, and started eating raw fresh produce, I

have been a little hungry while I look for food sources for dairy and meat,

but I have put on 7 lbs in the first 2 weeks, and have kept it on for 6

weeks now! Yeah! I'm thrilled... so if throwing out my freezer will " cure my

ails " and get me to a point where I feel healthy (doctors have always said

that I am " healthy as a horse " no matter what problems I am having), there

is no leap at all.

(And it's another one of those run on sentences that my mother would be

mortified at! lol)

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I've been feeling the same thing... that's why I would rather be on a farm!

Food storage... I've been theorizing a few things... haven't had time to

research them yet... I've been concentrating on getting out of Idaho... and

trying to figure out where to go ... the kids, the cats, and I are all

breaking out in open lesions now, and I can't find any quality food here.

(We have determined that it is a direct " detox " of all the pesticides on

everything including our food.)

Anyways, food storage... how did the pioneers keep their meat? I believe

smoking was their method... they certainly didn't have freezers. What about

the Indians...the Plains Indians migrated with the buffalo, but how did they

keep the animal that they killed? They are not known for wasting anything...

and I don't recall ever reading or hearing anything about them killing one

every day! Maybe they killed one a week, and had enough people in the tribe

to consume it all in one week. So that is always a possibility... form a

small community to consume all of the slaughtered animal before it goes bad.

I have also heard about using the raw milk before... have you tried UNHEATED

honey (different from raw honey - not heated above 93 degrees artificially),

I think I remember hearing that unheated honey would help preserve... or

maybe a combination of things.

Let me know if I spark anything!

And as for a large leap of faith to get rid of the freezer... food is a very

important issue for me... if I don't eat properly, I would wither away and a

strong wind would be my end! My body doesn't asorb nutrients that have been

altered or synthetically produced (that was what the conventional doctor

told me, and what stemmed my decision to look into alternative medicine!)

So, when we took out all grains from the diet, I lost 2 inches, but not a

pound...I, unfortunately , did not gain any weight either (105 lbs.)... but

when I stopped eating cooked food, and started eating raw fresh produce, I

have been a little hungry while I look for food sources for dairy and meat,

but I have put on 7 lbs in the first 2 weeks, and have kept it on for 6

weeks now! Yeah! I'm thrilled... so if throwing out my freezer will " cure my

ails " and get me to a point where I feel healthy (doctors have always said

that I am " healthy as a horse " no matter what problems I am having), there

is no leap at all.

(And it's another one of those run on sentences that my mother would be

mortified at! lol)

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Jill,

I think that WHEN the cells get shredded would be an issue simple because as

soon as they are shredded they are oxidized, which cause a lot of damage.

>Freezing can actually cause extensive damage to cells. The ice

>crystals that form from water in the cells act like millions of tiny

>swords and can shred the cells. But all cells get shredded when we

>chew and digest our food anyway, so I doubt that makes any difference.

>Jill

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Jill,

I think that WHEN the cells get shredded would be an issue simple because as

soon as they are shredded they are oxidized, which cause a lot of damage.

>Freezing can actually cause extensive damage to cells. The ice

>crystals that form from water in the cells act like millions of tiny

>swords and can shred the cells. But all cells get shredded when we

>chew and digest our food anyway, so I doubt that makes any difference.

>Jill

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The Native Americans dried their meats by smoking them over open fires.

Unfortunately smoke has a lot of toxins, and isn't a healthy alternative.

Blessings,

-AngelKirkland Washington

I've been feeling the same thing... that's why I would rather be on a farm! Food storage... I've been theorizing a few things... haven't had time to research them yet... I've been concentrating on getting out of Idaho... and trying to figure out where to go ... the kids, the

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,

I agree...and I homeschool too! Have done so since mine were born, except for a couple years in their teens which I truly regret. It was their choice, but it really changed them a lot! No great deed was done through force.

Blessings,

-AngelKirkland Washington

I would second this opinion. And actually, the best example that freezing is not a harmful thing to food is the Eskimo peoples, like the Inuet. They froze a lot of the meats they ate, for obvious reasons. When they were ready for more, they would go out to the outside igloo

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,

I agree...and I homeschool too! Have done so since mine were born, except for a couple years in their teens which I truly regret. It was their choice, but it really changed them a lot! No great deed was done through force.

Blessings,

-AngelKirkland Washington

I would second this opinion. And actually, the best example that freezing is not a harmful thing to food is the Eskimo peoples, like the Inuet. They froze a lot of the meats they ate, for obvious reasons. When they were ready for more, they would go out to the outside igloo

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Given that thinking I would have a tendency to agree... but they also have a

different thinking on when meat goes bad... they eat " high meat " , or meat

that has progressed to various stages of decay (or fermenting) in order to

consume those helpful bacterias and replenish their systems! And I think

that the amount of fats consumed is also a fact to note... maybe the extra

fat protects them in ways we haven't even thought of yet.

>the best example that

>freezing is not a harmful thing to food is the Eskimo peoples, like the

>Inuet. They froze a lot of the meats they ate, for obvious reasons.

>When they were ready for more, they would go out to the outside igloo

>and get a big frozen chunk fish or caribou meat out and slice it up.

>They were some of the healthiest peoples on earth until they adopted a

>western diet, and succumbed to a myriad of illnesses such as

>alcoholism, diabetes,etc. They also fermented caribou to achieve some

>of the same beneficial efffects that we get today from probiotic foods

>such as yogurt, kefir, kiimchi and sauerkraut. And they had no

>recorded cardiovascular disease and ironically, their diet consisted of

>99.9% meats and saturated fats, including whale milk and seal blubber.

>The difference was that they ate it raw.

>

And here I have to concur as another homeschooler with small ones too... I

don't have time for anything extra... and I only get to the stores once a

week or so.... the food saver has been working wonderfully for so many other

things, maybe we will try vaccuum sealing meat and then putting it in the

freezer....hmmmmm. The current food save experiment is with peaches in

mason jars... Both the ones in the fridge, and the ones on the shelf are

staying fresh... going on 6 weeks!

> It can be really very

>discouraging to people because who has time to slaughter a calf every

>day or even make a trip to the store every single day? Certainly not

>me, with my homeschooling and busy life.

> D.

>

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In a message dated 10/22/04 1:55:03 PM Central Daylight Time,

lucidangel@... writes:

<<

There is no actual scientific evidence to support these ideas on freezing by

Aajonus. This has been debated on the live foods group. Vinny Pinto, the

group owner is a scientist, and he says that Aajanous's claims in this area

have no scientific substance.

Hi Angel, Wow- Sometimes it gets a little overwhelming with all the info,

etc. I am glad you shared that. Guess we just do the best we can do. We

bought a quarter beef and with just the two of us it will take us awhile to go

through it. But I would think it would still be better to eat this raw than

what

I have done all these years.

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In a message dated 10/22/04 1:55:03 PM Central Daylight Time,

lucidangel@... writes:

<<

There is no actual scientific evidence to support these ideas on freezing by

Aajonus. This has been debated on the live foods group. Vinny Pinto, the

group owner is a scientist, and he says that Aajanous's claims in this area

have no scientific substance.

Hi Angel, Wow- Sometimes it gets a little overwhelming with all the info,

etc. I am glad you shared that. Guess we just do the best we can do. We

bought a quarter beef and with just the two of us it will take us awhile to go

through it. But I would think it would still be better to eat this raw than

what

I have done all these years.

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>

> >bursts the cell walls of the food, but this is

> >redundant. Freezing

> >contracts

> >food, heat expands. Expansion causes bursting, not

> >contraction. I hope

>

>

> Actually, the problem with living things is that

> they all contain water, and water expands (initially)

> as it freezes. This is the miracle that allows life

> to continue--the ice forms at the top of the lake

> since ice is less dense than water, thus leaving

> liquid

> water available for fishies and whatever.

>

> This ice-expansion causes cells to burst, which is

> why berries and so forth are always mushy after being

> frozen and thawed. I think its possible to avoid some

> of this if an item is frozen under specific

> conditions (either very fast or very slow) but I

> can't recall the specifics.

>

> /andrea

Course, I burst the cell walls pretty well, also, when I chew the berries. No

harm done

except to the berry. HA!

D.

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The difference being when the cells were oxidized...in the freezer (or while

thawing), or in your mouth (or while chewing)... so the question becomes

would you rather eat oxidized cells, or oxidize the cells you are eating?

> > Actually, the problem with living things is that

> > they all contain water, and water expands (initially)

> > as it freezes. This is the miracle that allows life

> > to continue--the ice forms at the top of the lake

> > since ice is less dense than water, thus leaving

> > liquid

> > water available for fishies and whatever.

> >

> > This ice-expansion causes cells to burst, which is

> > why berries and so forth are always mushy after being

> > frozen and thawed.

>

>Course, I burst the cell walls pretty well, also, when I chew the berries.

>No harm done

>except to the berry. HA!

> D.

>

>

>

>

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