Guest guest Posted September 3, 2007 Report Share Posted September 3, 2007 Hi Ralph I take it one wishing to elicit the relaxation state on command would have to anchor that state to a tape on the arm or something similar? For a while now I have been thinking about the zone for weight training and any benefit hypnosis may provide. I expect it would be hard to recreate the sense of urgency one may require to lift a big weight when in a hypnotic state, due to the relaxation needed for hypnosis. So could one potentially just set an anchor when they are next in the zone. Repeating this so as to eventually enable the " zone " State to be fired up on command? I realize athletes have rituals but that seems more of a affirmation of a state rather than a specific anchor. Greenland Sussex UK > that is a very interesting anecdote however I > think that you are attributing too much mysticism to a > well known physiological effect known as the > relaxation response brought about by self hypnosis. > > To understand the relaxation response I suggest that > you and anyone who is interested purchase the book > Relaxation Response written by Herbert Benson MD. > > The book was first published in 1975 and became a > national best seller and to this date is still in > print having sold over 3 million copies. > > Dr. Benson is a Harvard research cardiologist who > first studied and introduced the connection between > stress and hypertension. > > He began to research the physiological drop in blood > pressure brought about by Transcendental Meditation. > He termed this reaction the Relaxation Response. > > In case you are wondering the Relaxation Response is > the opposite of the Fight or flight response. > > Just as the fight or flight response is a reaction to > real or perceived stress (with subsequent release of > stress hormones , epinephrine and norepinephrine which > in turn cause an increase in pulse rate, breathing > rate and rise in blood pressure) the Relaxation > Response is " an inducible state of quietude " (HB- > Relaxation response pg9). > > He also studied the placebo effect and found that in > fact it is similar to the relaxation response and he > coined the now popular phrase to explain the placebo > effect " Remembered Wellness " . > > His research into this relaxation response brought him > to study the Tibetan Monks in Northern India. He made > many trips to study these monks directly. > > In 1988 he founded the Mind/Body Institute at the Beth > Israel Deconess Hospital in Boston. In this institute > he as brought together scientists in many different > fields of medicine to study the intricate mind/ body > connection and the effects on many different disease > states. > > Besides the Relaxation Response book he has written > " Beyond the Relaxation Response " where he explores > more deeply what role Faith has in producing a sense > of wellness, " Mind Your Heart " ( A mind/body approach > to stress management, exercise and Nutrition for Heart > Health), The Wellness Book (the comprehensive guide > to maintaining health and treating stress-related > illness) , Timeless Healing (the power and biology > of Belief) and finally " The Breakout Principle " where > he explains the physiology behind the state of " being > in the Zone " athletes often talk about. > > What is important to our discussion is that while he > has spent a great deal of time researching the effects > of meditation, Faith and Belief he is also quick to > point out that it does not matter what religious > beliefs you have or don't have you can elicit the > relaxation response. He also points out the the > placebo effect which is based on faith and belief is a > real physiological effect. The faith and belief > could be belief in product or belief in the person and > sometimes belief in a religion. > > Even an atheist, following the principles he has > discovered in his research, is perfectly capable > eliciting the same effects. > > I find it very intriguing in all this discussion about > Faith and Science that we have a true scientist and a > scientific institute that has studied using > scientific methodology to study the Mind/body > connection and effects of faith on true physiological > wellness. > > How does this all tie in with hypnosis. Before I ever > read the first chapter in the " Relaxation Response " I > had taken a course in hypnosis and have used it > intermittently over the years in select situations. > While reading the book " Relaxation Response " I > realized that the methods used to elicit the > relaxation response are identical the the basic > principles used in hypnosis (self hypnosis). > > Ralph Giarnella MD > Southington Ct USA > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 4, 2007 Report Share Posted September 4, 2007 --- hmmmhmmhm wrote: > Hi Ralph I take it one wishing to elicit the > relaxation state on > command would have to anchor that state to a tape on > the arm or > something similar? > > For a while now I have been thinking about the zone > for weight > training and any benefit hypnosis may provide. I > expect it would be > hard to recreate the sense of urgency one may > require to lift a big > weight when in a hypnotic state, due to the > relaxation needed for > hypnosis. So could one potentially just set an > anchor when they are > next in the zone. Repeating this so as to eventually > enable the " zone " > State to be fired up on command? > > I realize athletes have rituals but that seems more > of a affirmation > of a state rather than a specific anchor. > > Greenland > Sussex UK > , Once an individual has learned how to elicit the relaxation response the individual can use any number of triggers (anchors) to help elicit the response. Often the simple act of uttering or remembering a simple phrase could be enough to help elicit this response. In many religions individuals use prayer beads. If one is religiously inclined a simple religious mantra can be used. One could also use visualization of a calm scene or a pleasant thought. For instance if an individual has ever had a particularly relaxing experience (such as sitting on a calm beach watching the sunset) just recalling that experience could elicit the relaxation response. As for weight lifting I don't think that eliciting the relaxation response is really what you want. This a situation where you would want to elicit the fight or flight response. The same mechanisms that are used to elicit the relaxation response could be used to elicit the fight or flight response. Actors learn to elicit emotional responses by recalling certain past experiences. As for the Zone (not to be mistaken for the zone diet), it is a different state of mind from the relaxation response and the fight or flight response. Dr. Herbert Benson devotes and entire book to explaining the phenomenon of the entering the Zone and what are the elements that allow certain individuals to enter the zone more easily than others. I am not even going to try to begin to explain it in a few paragraphs. If you are interested in this I suggest you buy the book " The Break Principle " by Dr. Herbert Benson. The rituals that athletes have are probably for them actual anchors or triggers that they have learned to help them enter the state of mind that allows for maximum concentration. I suspect that even some superstitions that some athletes have, as absurd as they may seem, become in fact triggers or anchors. It is important to note that this relaxation response is not something mystical or magic. We all have experienced this frequently in our lives. Most of us have unconsciously developed our own rituals to elicit the relaxation response. Eating a certain food may bring back memories past pleasant experiences. On the other hand if you have had a bad experience in the past with a certain food just the sight of the food or the mention of it might elicit an unpleasant or disturbed mood. Ralph Giarnella MD Southington Ct USA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 4, 2007 Report Share Posted September 4, 2007 Nick, if you are interested in studying getting in the Zone I suggest the book " The Breakout principle " by Dr. Herbert Benson. They have studied this mental state the Mind/body institute and he details the conditions that must be met in order to enter the Zone. Interestingly enough one of the parameters is increased stress however if the stress increases beyond a certain point the performance decreases. Ralph Giarnella MD Southington Ct USA --- Nick Tatalias wrote: > A recently published book here in South Africa deals > with mental states of > getting in the zone. The book dealt with this topic > through bench marking > the mental abilities of some of South Africa's top > sports people. An > interesting read. The book is called " In the Zone > with South Africa's > Sports Hero's " by Authors and Tim > Goodenough. Available > through South Africa's verson of Amazon.com called > Kalahari.net > http://www.kalahari.net/bk/product.asp?sku=30626164 > > I have worked with Tim Goodeneough in attempting to > reach the the zone on > demand with some success and find this book a very > good description of the > process. > > Regards > Nick Tatalias > Johannesburg > South Africa > > > On 04/09/07, Ralph Giarnella > wrote: > > > > --- hmmmhmmhm <hmmmhmmhm@... > <hmmmhmmhm%40yahoo.co.uk>> wrote: > > > > > Hi Ralph I take it one wishing to elicit the > > > relaxation state on > > > command would have to anchor that state to a > tape on > > > the arm or > > > something similar? > > > > > > For a while now I have been thinking about the > zone > > > for weight > > > training and any benefit hypnosis may provide. I > > > expect it would be > > > hard to recreate the sense of urgency one may > > > require to lift a big > > > weight when in a hypnotic state, due to the > > > relaxation needed for > > > hypnosis. So could one potentially just set an > > > anchor when they are > > > next in the zone. Repeating this so as to > eventually > > > enable the " zone " > > > State to be fired up on command? > > > > > > I realize athletes have rituals but that seems > more > > > of a affirmation > > > of a state rather than a specific anchor. > > > > > > Greenland > > > Sussex UK > > > > > > > , > > Once an individual has learned how to elicit the > > relaxation response the individual can use any > number > > of triggers (anchors) to help elicit the response. > > Often the simple act of uttering or remembering a > > simple phrase could be enough to help elicit this > > response. In many religions individuals use prayer > > beads. If one is religiously inclined a simple > > religious mantra can be used. > > > > One could also use visualization of a calm scene > or a > > pleasant thought. For instance if an individual > > has ever had a particularly relaxing experience > (such > > as sitting on a calm beach watching the sunset) > just > > recalling that experience could elicit the > relaxation > > response. > > > > As for weight lifting I don't think that eliciting > the > > relaxation response is really what you want. This > a > > situation where you would want to elicit the fight > or > > flight response. The same mechanisms that are used > to > > elicit the relaxation response could be used to > elicit > > the fight or flight response. > > > > Actors learn to elicit emotional responses by > > recalling certain past experiences. > > > > As for the Zone (not to be mistaken for the zone > > diet), it is a different state of mind from the > > relaxation response and the fight or flight > response. > > Dr. Herbert Benson devotes and entire book to > > explaining the phenomenon of the entering the Zone > and > > what are the elements that allow certain > individuals > > to enter the zone more easily than others. I am > not > > even going to try to begin to explain it in a few > > paragraphs. > > > > If you are interested in this I suggest you buy > the > > book " The Break Principle " by Dr. Herbert Benson. > > > > The rituals that athletes have are probably for > them > > actual anchors or triggers that they have learned > to > > help them enter the state of mind that allows for > > maximum concentration. > > > > I suspect that even some superstitions that some > > athletes have, as absurd as they may seem, become > in > > fact triggers or anchors. > > > > It is important to note that this relaxation > response > > is not something mystical or magic. We all have > > experienced this frequently in our lives. Most of > us > > have unconsciously developed our own rituals to > elicit > > the relaxation response. > > > > Eating a certain food may bring back memories past > > pleasant experiences. On the other hand if you > have > > had a bad experience in the past with a certain > food > > just the sight of the food or the mention of it > might > > elicit an unpleasant or disturbed mood. > > > > Ralph Giarnella MD > > Southington Ct USA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 4, 2007 Report Share Posted September 4, 2007 Dr. Benson's book is one that parents sending their kids off to college this fall might want to think about. Although this is a board about sports and physical training, the book Dr. Giarnella has referenced has perhaps even more application for the non-athlete who does not get the stress release from a hard workout or game. Jon Haddan Irvine, CA --- Ralph Giarnella wrote: > --- hmmmhmmhm wrote: > > > Hi Ralph I take it one wishing to elicit the > > relaxation state on > > command would have to anchor that state to a tape > on > > the arm or > > something similar? > > > > For a while now I have been thinking about the > zone > > for weight > > training and any benefit hypnosis may provide. I > > expect it would be > > hard to recreate the sense of urgency one may > > require to lift a big > > weight when in a hypnotic state, due to the > > relaxation needed for > > hypnosis. So could one potentially just set an > > anchor when they are > > next in the zone. Repeating this so as to > eventually > > enable the " zone " > > State to be fired up on command? > > > > I realize athletes have rituals but that seems > more > > of a affirmation > > of a state rather than a specific anchor. > > > > Greenland > > Sussex UK > > > > , > Once an individual has learned how to elicit the > relaxation response the individual can use any > number > of triggers (anchors) to help elicit the response. > Often the simple act of uttering or remembering a > simple phrase could be enough to help elicit this > response. In many religions individuals use prayer > beads. If one is religiously inclined a simple > religious mantra can be used. > > One could also use visualization of a calm scene or > a > pleasant thought. For instance if an individual > has ever had a particularly relaxing experience > (such > as sitting on a calm beach watching the sunset) > just > recalling that experience could elicit the > relaxation > response. > > As for weight lifting I don't think that eliciting > the > relaxation response is really what you want. This a > situation where you would want to elicit the fight > or > flight response. The same mechanisms that are used > to > elicit the relaxation response could be used to > elicit > the fight or flight response. > > Actors learn to elicit emotional responses by > recalling certain past experiences. > > As for the Zone (not to be mistaken for the zone > diet), it is a different state of mind from the > relaxation response and the fight or flight > response. > Dr. Herbert Benson devotes and entire book to > explaining the phenomenon of the entering the Zone > and > what are the elements that allow certain individuals > to enter the zone more easily than others. I am not > even going to try to begin to explain it in a few > paragraphs. > > If you are interested in this I suggest you buy the > book " The Break Principle " by Dr. Herbert Benson. > > The rituals that athletes have are probably for them > actual anchors or triggers that they have learned to > help them enter the state of mind that allows for > maximum concentration. > > I suspect that even some superstitions that some > athletes have, as absurd as they may seem, become > in > fact triggers or anchors. > > It is important to note that this relaxation > response > is not something mystical or magic. We all have > experienced this frequently in our lives. Most of > us > have unconsciously developed our own rituals to > elicit > the relaxation response. > > Eating a certain food may bring back memories past > pleasant experiences. On the other hand if you have > had a bad experience in the past with a certain food > just the sight of the food or the mention of it > might > elicit an unpleasant or disturbed mood. > > > Ralph Giarnella MD > Southington Ct USA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 4, 2007 Report Share Posted September 4, 2007 Ralph, it sounds like a good book, although I believe it's called " The Breakout Principle " ? http://tinyurl.com/yoazvq Another book is a similar vein is " Flow " by Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi. http://tinyurl.com/yqj3r2 Most of the material I've read related to that is by Jon Kabat-Zinn and a number of mindfulness based cognitive behavioral therapy approaches for stress and depression. There is also a lot of new very fascinating research taking place on neuroplasticity, where scientific investigation has discovered that different meditation techniques can be used to, for lack of a better term, re-wire parts of the brain, and spur the growth of new neurons. Burns Vancouver, Canada > > > Hi Ralph I take it one wishing to elicit the > > relaxation state on > > command would have to anchor that state to a tape on > > the arm or > > something similar? > > > > For a while now I have been thinking about the zone > > for weight > > training and any benefit hypnosis may provide. I > > expect it would be > > hard to recreate the sense of urgency one may > > require to lift a big > > weight when in a hypnotic state, due to the > > relaxation needed for > > hypnosis. So could one potentially just set an > > anchor when they are > > next in the zone. Repeating this so as to eventually > > enable the " zone " > > State to be fired up on command? > > > > I realize athletes have rituals but that seems more > > of a affirmation > > of a state rather than a specific anchor. > > > > Greenland > > Sussex UK > > > > , > Once an individual has learned how to elicit the > relaxation response the individual can use any number > of triggers (anchors) to help elicit the response. > Often the simple act of uttering or remembering a > simple phrase could be enough to help elicit this > response. In many religions individuals use prayer > beads. If one is religiously inclined a simple > religious mantra can be used. > > One could also use visualization of a calm scene or a > pleasant thought. For instance if an individual > has ever had a particularly relaxing experience (such > as sitting on a calm beach watching the sunset) just > recalling that experience could elicit the relaxation > response. > > As for weight lifting I don't think that eliciting the > relaxation response is really what you want. This a > situation where you would want to elicit the fight or > flight response. The same mechanisms that are used to > elicit the relaxation response could be used to elicit > the fight or flight response. > > Actors learn to elicit emotional responses by > recalling certain past experiences. > > As for the Zone (not to be mistaken for the zone > diet), it is a different state of mind from the > relaxation response and the fight or flight response. > Dr. Herbert Benson devotes and entire book to > explaining the phenomenon of the entering the Zone and > what are the elements that allow certain individuals > to enter the zone more easily than others. I am not > even going to try to begin to explain it in a few > paragraphs. > > If you are interested in this I suggest you buy the > book " The Break Principle " by Dr. Herbert Benson. > > The rituals that athletes have are probably for them > actual anchors or triggers that they have learned to > help them enter the state of mind that allows for > maximum concentration. > > I suspect that even some superstitions that some > athletes have, as absurd as they may seem, become in > fact triggers or anchors. > > It is important to note that this relaxation response > is not something mystical or magic. We all have > experienced this frequently in our lives. Most of us > have unconsciously developed our own rituals to elicit > the relaxation response. > > Eating a certain food may bring back memories past > pleasant experiences. On the other hand if you have > had a bad experience in the past with a certain food > just the sight of the food or the mention of it might > elicit an unpleasant or disturbed mood. > > > Ralph Giarnella MD > Southington Ct USA > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 5, 2007 Report Share Posted September 5, 2007 You are correct. I had the book in front of men and in my haste in typing I made a typo. Thanks for the correction. Ralph Giarnella MD Southington Ct USA --- hewmon wrote: > Ralph, it sounds like a good book, although I > believe it's called " The > Breakout Principle " ? > http://tinyurl.com/yoazvq > > Another book is a similar vein is " Flow " by Mihaly > Csikszentmihalyi. > http://tinyurl.com/yqj3r2 > > Most of the material I've read related to that is by > Jon Kabat-Zinn > and a number of mindfulness based cognitive > behavioral therapy > approaches for stress and depression. There is also > a lot of new very > fascinating research taking place on > neuroplasticity, where scientific > investigation has discovered that different > meditation techniques can > be used to, for lack of a better term, re-wire parts > of the brain, and > spur the growth of new neurons. > > Burns > Vancouver, Canada > > > > > > > Hi Ralph I take it one wishing to elicit the > > > relaxation state on > > > command would have to anchor that state to a > tape on > > > the arm or > > > something similar? > > > > > > For a while now I have been thinking about the > zone > > > for weight > > > training and any benefit hypnosis may provide. > I > > > expect it would be > > > hard to recreate the sense of urgency one may > > > require to lift a big > > > weight when in a hypnotic state, due to the > > > relaxation needed for > > > hypnosis. So could one potentially just set an > > > anchor when they are > > > next in the zone. Repeating this so as to > eventually > > > enable the " zone " > > > State to be fired up on command? > > > > > > I realize athletes have rituals but that seems > more > > > of a affirmation > > > of a state rather than a specific anchor. > > > > > > Greenland > > > Sussex UK > > > > > > > , > > Once an individual has learned how to elicit the > > relaxation response the individual can use any > number > > of triggers (anchors) to help elicit the > response. > > Often the simple act of uttering or remembering a > > simple phrase could be enough to help elicit this > > response. In many religions individuals use > prayer > > beads. If one is religiously inclined a simple > > religious mantra can be used. > > > > One could also use visualization of a calm scene > or a > > pleasant thought. For instance if an > individual > > has ever had a particularly relaxing experience > (such > > as sitting on a calm beach watching the sunset) > just > > recalling that experience could elicit the > relaxation > > response. > > > > As for weight lifting I don't think that eliciting > the > > relaxation response is really what you want. This > a > > situation where you would want to elicit the fight > or > > flight response. The same mechanisms that are used > to > > elicit the relaxation response could be used to > elicit > > the fight or flight response. > > > > Actors learn to elicit emotional responses by > > recalling certain past experiences. > > > > As for the Zone (not to be mistaken for the zone > > diet), it is a different state of mind from the > > relaxation response and the fight or flight > response. > > Dr. Herbert Benson devotes and entire book to > > explaining the phenomenon of the entering the Zone > and > > what are the elements that allow certain > individuals > > to enter the zone more easily than others. I am > not > > even going to try to begin to explain it in a few > > paragraphs. > > > > If you are interested in this I suggest you buy > the > > book " The Break Principle " by Dr. Herbert Benson. > > > > The rituals that athletes have are probably for > them > > actual anchors or triggers that they have learned > to > > help them enter the state of mind that allows for > > maximum concentration. > > > > I suspect that even some superstitions that some > > athletes have, as absurd as they may seem, become > in > > fact triggers or anchors. > > > > It is important to note that this relaxation > response > > is not something mystical or magic. We all have > > experienced this frequently in our lives. Most of > us > > have unconsciously developed our own rituals to > elicit > > the relaxation response. > > > > Eating a certain food may bring back memories past > > pleasant experiences. On the other hand if you > have > > had a bad experience in the past with a certain > food > > just the sight of the food or the mention of it > might > > elicit an unpleasant or disturbed mood. > > > > > > Ralph Giarnella MD > > Southington Ct USA > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 5, 2007 Report Share Posted September 5, 2007 Jon, I agree with you completely. I have been recommending this book ever since I first read it to many of my patients who have stress related illness. Ralph Giarnella MD Southington Ct USA --- Jon Haddan wrote: > Dr. Benson's book is one that parents sending their > kids off to college this fall might want to think > about. Although this is a board about sports and > physical training, the book Dr. Giarnella has > referenced has perhaps even more application for the > non-athlete who does not get the stress release from > a > hard workout or game. > > Jon Haddan > Irvine, CA > > > > --- Ralph Giarnella wrote: > > > --- hmmmhmmhm wrote: > > > > > Hi Ralph I take it one wishing to elicit the > > > relaxation state on > > > command would have to anchor that state to a > tape > > on > > > the arm or > > > something similar? > > > > > > For a while now I have been thinking about the > > zone > > > for weight > > > training and any benefit hypnosis may provide. > I > > > expect it would be > > > hard to recreate the sense of urgency one may > > > require to lift a big > > > weight when in a hypnotic state, due to the > > > relaxation needed for > > > hypnosis. So could one potentially just set an > > > anchor when they are > > > next in the zone. Repeating this so as to > > eventually > > > enable the " zone " > > > State to be fired up on command? > > > > > > I realize athletes have rituals but that seems > > more > > > of a affirmation > > > of a state rather than a specific anchor. > > > > > > Greenland > > > Sussex UK > > > > > > > , > > Once an individual has learned how to elicit the > > relaxation response the individual can use any > > number > > of triggers (anchors) to help elicit the > response. > > Often the simple act of uttering or remembering a > > simple phrase could be enough to help elicit this > > response. In many religions individuals use > prayer > > beads. If one is religiously inclined a simple > > religious mantra can be used. > > > > One could also use visualization of a calm scene > or > > a > > pleasant thought. For instance if an > individual > > has ever had a particularly relaxing experience > > (such > > as sitting on a calm beach watching the sunset) > > just > > recalling that experience could elicit the > > relaxation > > response. > > > > As for weight lifting I don't think that eliciting > > the > > relaxation response is really what you want. This > a > > situation where you would want to elicit the fight > > or > > flight response. The same mechanisms that are used > > to > > elicit the relaxation response could be used to > > elicit > > the fight or flight response. > > > > Actors learn to elicit emotional responses by > > recalling certain past experiences. > > > > As for the Zone (not to be mistaken for the zone > > diet), it is a different state of mind from the > > relaxation response and the fight or flight > > response. > > Dr. Herbert Benson devotes and entire book to > > explaining the phenomenon of the entering the Zone > > and > > what are the elements that allow certain > individuals > > to enter the zone more easily than others. I am > not > > even going to try to begin to explain it in a few > > paragraphs. > > > > If you are interested in this I suggest you buy > the > > book " The Break Principle " by Dr. Herbert Benson. > > > > The rituals that athletes have are probably for > them > > actual anchors or triggers that they have learned > to > > help them enter the state of mind that allows for > > maximum concentration. > > > > I suspect that even some superstitions that some > > athletes have, as absurd as they may seem, become > > in > > fact triggers or anchors. > > > > It is important to note that this relaxation > > response > > is not something mystical or magic. We all have > > experienced this frequently in our lives. Most of > > us > > have unconsciously developed our own rituals to > > elicit > > the relaxation response. > > > > Eating a certain food may bring back memories past > > pleasant experiences. On the other hand if you > have > > had a bad experience in the past with a certain > food > > just the sight of the food or the mention of it > > might > > elicit an unpleasant or disturbed mood. > > > > > > Ralph Giarnella MD > > Southington Ct USA > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 6, 2007 Report Share Posted September 6, 2007 Ralph, Thanks for the kind reply. I can see the possible ambiguity. As you now know I was indeed referring to faith in the context of 'believing in yourself'. Thanks also for the book reference. I have ordered a copy for myself and one for my dad (who is a pharmacist), much appreciated Chris B Eastham BPhEd MAAESS AEP THE OPEN DOOR Personal Training & Home Fitness Club St Kilda ph 0420 532 522 chris@... coming soon www.theopendoor.com.au ============== Ralph wrote: I was referring to the following statement you made: <Has anybody else got any interesting stories of faith or unconscious <mind <control beating medical statistics/sporting norms? <If you do please post <them because I would love to hear them (Im sure <other supertrainers would <too). I, obviously mistakenly, interpreted your use of the term " stories of faith " as implying a religious experience. Ralph Giarnella MDc ====================== Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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