Re: Russian Conjugate v. Westside Conjugate

November 19, 2007

But we all know *for sure* that the two has nothing at all in common.

Dan Partelly

Romania

>

> No one really knows for sure but as it has been explained by

(powerdevelopmentinc.com)

November 19, 2007

So just so I am understanding this correctly.

Westside compresses all the attributes in one week whilst russian

conjugate does each attribute in say 1 month.

So e.g. maximum effort for 4 weeks, then repetition method for 4 weeks

then dynamic effort for 4 weeks then back to maximum.

Whilst westside puts all three in 1 week.

Am I right??

Carlton

Junior Fitness Instructor

Oxfordshire

United Kingdom

[Mod: Below are two excellent summaries:

Dan Partelly wrote on the ST list:

In sports the term " conjugate " has been used with the intent to express

" joined together " . Therefore, it is easy to use it to express many

different things, and , at the same time, correct to do so. Nobody

patented the term " conjugate " for exclusive use.

Also, it is incorrect, in my opinion to use constructs like " the

Russian conjugate ... whatever " , " the Russian system " , " the eastern

European " . There is no unique system in sport training to be labeled

as " Russian " , " eastern European " . There are coaches and coaches

which developed very efficient systems of training sportsman. Denying

individuality and labeling everything " russian " is a mistake.

The " conjugate method " is a **method** of training in which special

strength exercises are used to develop technical mastery of athletes.

Its paternity can be attributed to a high jumper coach , V. Djiakov.

This is what both Dr. Bondarchuck and Dr. Verkhoshanky refer to.

Please note that " conjugate " here refer to the same basic meaning ,

" joined together " . It's " joined together " training effects

(developing the abilities which allow one to express his motor skills

AND motor skills themselves - technique) and it doesn't mean

" training effect " or a " training program " as has been suggested in a

previous post.

The " conjugate sequence system " , aka block system is a system of

programming and organization of training (note that I avoid the word

" periodisation " ) developed by prof Verkhoshansky and introduced at

the same time as the principles of concentration and superposition of

training loads. Not surprisingly, here the word " conjugate " means the

same thing " joined together " . There are blocks of training which are

conjugated in sequence.

The issues with the word conjugate is when ppl start to use it in all

the wrong ways. They say " conjugate method " , and they are 100% they

refer to " conjugate sequence system " , but sadly they dont realize they

dont use either the " conjugate method " either the " conjugate sequence

system " , but some kind of concurrent method of organizing the

training, or whatever other things. Ive seen this confusion in

countless articles from ppl which should have known better.

There is nothing wrong in using the word " conjugate " to express other

things then the 2 things mentioned above. In its basic sense of

" joined together " it can be used to express a lot of things.

===================

Prof. Yuri Verkhoshansky wrote on his website:

.....In East Europe sport training methodology, the word “periodisation” means

the subdivision of training process in periods related to the different

training’s tasks. There is also the conception of Training Periodisation of L.

Matveev, that is based on his particular principle of training’s process

planning, different from my conception of “Training Programming”.

But from what is in my knowledge, I can suppose that in the West the word

“periodisation” is synonym of “training’s planning” and the conception of

Matveev’s Periodisation has named “Linear periodisation”. My conception of

“Training Programming” is often wrongly associated with word “programming” that

is the general activity to define the training programs.

May be also the word “conjugate” has been used in the West with another meaning.

For example, I am not sure that the Conjugate Method of is the same

Conjugate Method that I know.

In the article of “The Conjugate Method” has been reported that this

method was invented in 1970th by weight lifters of Dynamo Club (USSR): “They

were introduced to a system of 20-45 special exercises that were grouped into

2-4 exercises per work-out and were rotated as often as necessary to make

continuous progress They soon found out that as the squat, good morning, back

raise, glute/ham raise, or special pulls got stronger, so did their Olympic

lifts. When asked about the system, only one lifter was satisfied with the

number of special lifts; the rest wanted more to choose from. And so the

conjugate system was originated.”

The Conjugate Method that I know was invented in 50th by my teacher, the famous

high jumpers coach V. Djachkov. It was a brilliant idea to use the special

strength exercises for improving the technique of athletes. For the first time

in the Sport Training Methodology was introduced the idea that to adjust the

competition exercise technique is necessary to increase the strength level

expression in determinate movements.

At that time I and Djachkov elaborated together this method and I suggested him

to name it “conjugate” because the strength exercises have to be “conjugated”

with the technical issues of the athletes. After, I introduced the Principle of

Dynamic Correspondence to select and elaborate adequate special strength

exercises on the base of the biodynamic structure analysis of competition

exercise.

Often, in USSR the Conjugate Method was used also as “the execution of

competition exercise with overload”.

So, the original idea of “this” Conjugate Method is not simply “the rotation” of

the same group of special exercises during the preparation period, but it is the

“conjugate” use of special physical preparation exercises and technical

exercises in the same training session.

In 60th, I started to use the special strength preparation exercises and

technical works not in the same training session, but in different sequenced

training sessions, and later, in different sequenced training stages.

When I elaborated the structure of special physical preparation in

speed-strength disciplines, I understood that also special strength work

consists in different types of exercises, that can be conjugated from them in

sequence (can be used in different training sessions and in different training

stages).

This idea was utilised in my Physical Preparation Training Methodology where I

introduced:

the Conjugate-Sequence System of training loads organisation, the Principles of

Concentration and of Superposition of different training loads and the Block

System of training.

Therefore, now in the East Europe sport methodology there are two different

models for the use of different types of loads in training process:

complex-parallel and conjugate-sequence.

In the first case these loads are used together with “continuous rotations of

the same special exercises” during all preparation period.

In the second case these loads are used in the sequence, one type of loads

after another, everyone concentrated in a special training stage.

If the conjugate periodisation is another name of complex-parallel model of

training loads organisation and you wish know my opinion about it, I can answer

very shortly.

The complex-parallel model is much more simple than the conjugate-sequence

because it doesn’t need the exactly quantitative model of training load

distribution during the preparation period.

It’s better use the complex-parallel model for non expert athletes who have a

not stabilised technique and a low level of physical preparedness (in any case

when the coach doesn’t know very well the training experience of the athletes).

The complex-parallel model can be used also for high level athletes:

- in the first phase of preparation period, before they start the

concentrated physical preparation work,

- when they don’t need to increase radically their physical

preparedness level, but they need to “conjugate” their high level physical

capacities with the technique ( it’s particularly important in some sport

disciplines).

In generally, the conjugate-sequence model is much more effective that

complex-parallel for high level athletes with high level of physical

preparedness.

In the sport disciplines where the sport result is strictly related with the

increase of the physical preparedness level these athletes need to increase

further their level of physical preparedness. In this case the training programs

have to be elaborated very carefully.

There are many other aspects about this issue but it need too much time to

explain all the aspects involved.

I hope this post will clarify, at least, the main arguments.]

>

> No one really knows for sure but as it has been explained by

(powerdevelopmentinc.com) the russian conjugate system follows

more of a block scheme in which special skills and strengths are

trained in varying volumes during progressive blocks (true conjugate)

whereas the westside system trains special skills and strengths

equally throughout the year (more reminscent of concurrent methods).

In either case it is futile to argue over which one is better or

worse, right or wrong, because every training system evolves rapidly

over time. I.E. if you look at Louie's articles there are huge

variances and changes that have been made in the past ten years. When

westside methods were first publicized the club had 1-1,000 plus

squatter, many in the 900 and 800s, several 600-700 pound benchers,

and many pulling in the 700 and few in the 800s. Now westside boasts

3 or 4 1100 pound squats, close to double that hitting a grand,

benchers in the 800s and

> several guys pulling in 800s and high 700s. The bottom line is

that for athletes to progress, the factors that effect training,

special strengths, and recovery must progress. Where does the anwsers

lie? Everyone is different and it will be discovered over the

successes and more so over the failures of athletes.

>

> Pete Arroyo

> d1 performance

> Lisle, IL

>

November 20, 2007

,

I will insist here: conjugate sequence system is not " Russian

periodisation " or " russian conjugate " . This system was developed by

prof. Yuri Verkhoshansky , and not by " Russia " or " Russians " .

To some this might sound like splitting the hairs, but its not. There

is already too much misuse of the word " conjugate " done by ppl, going

as far as labeling concurrent methods , as " conjugate sequence " in

many articles. In a word , blatant mistakes, many of said mistakes

caused, IMO, by the improper association of the word " conjugate " with

" russians " .

And , btw, both Westside and Conjugate sequence system is much more

than using " ME, DE,RE " on a weekly or monthly cycle.

Respectfully,

Dan Partelly

Oradea, Romania

> >

> > No one really knows for sure but as it has been explained by

> (powerdevelopmentinc.com) the russian conjugate system follows

> more of a block scheme in which special skills and strengths are

> trained in varying volumes during progressive blocks (true conjugate)

> whereas the westside system trains special skills and strengths

> equally throughout the year (more reminscent of concurrent methods).

> In either case it is futile to argue over which one is better or

> worse, right or wrong, because every training system evolves rapidly

> over time. I.E. if you look at Louie's articles there are huge

> variances and changes that have been made in the past ten years. When

> westside methods were first publicized the club had 1-1,000 plus

> squatter, many in the 900 and 800s, several 600-700 pound benchers,

> and many pulling in the 700 and few in the 800s. Now westside boasts

> 3 or 4 1100 pound squats, close to double that hitting a grand,

> benchers in the 800s and

> > several guys pulling in 800s and high 700s. The bottom line is

> that for athletes to progress, the factors that effect training,

> special strengths, and recovery must progress. Where does the anwsers

> lie? Everyone is different and it will be discovered over the

> successes and more so over the failures of athletes.

> >

> > Pete Arroyo

> > d1 performance

> > Lisle, IL

> >

>

November 21, 2007

To all members,

It is the application of the theoretical knowledge of strength

training is what counts. Forget about the Westside story or

Verkhoshansky's terminology. It is the applications of the four

methods of strength training;

1. Dynamic method 50%-70%

2. Submaximum method 60%-80%

3. Repetitive method 70%-90%

4. Maximum (near-method) 80%-100%, 102.5%, 105%

These four methods coupled with a micro-periodization or periodicity

is central to an athlete. It is important to understand the value

of " average intensity " of the micro cycles and meso cycles too. The

world famous USSR coach Dr. sei Medvedvey suggested that in order

to maximize your strength goals, one must train at an average

intensity of 75% + or - 2.5%.

Of all the methods mentioned above, I prefer, as most Soviet strength

coaches and bio-mechanists, to train in the 70%-90% of 1RM with the

repetitive method.

The maximum method should be applied every 6 weeks and it should be

known that the maximum method (near limit) is extremely taxing to the

neuromuscular nervous system. It places the body is great distress,

therefore.

The reason why this method is far more superior than the others is

because you are able to increase mechanical work or work volume, a

necessary value to greater strength outputs. Also keep in mind that

the one factor theory is central or the " super compensation " approach

should always be emphaized.

Keep in mind that the repetitive method utilizes motor unit

recruitment and after deloading the athlete, the athlete is able to

super compensation or over reach as planned.

One must also note the importance of recovery and its application.

Every 21 days of loading ( micro cycle), a restorative period of

training between 50-70% should be included. Again, you will prevent

accomodation in your training.

Don't forget the essentials too: the application of intensity,

volume, frequency and sequencing are critical.

You need to understand what average intensity you must use.

Also, understand that when you training mass and strength together,

you are better positioned that those that only train strength (neural

strength) or mass (hypertrophy only).

I hope this helps everyone in their goals.

Yours truly,

Silva

andria, Virginia

> > >

> > > No one really knows for sure but as it has been explained by

> > (powerdevelopmentinc.com) the russian conjugate system

follows

> > more of a block scheme in which special skills and strengths are

> > trained in varying volumes during progressive blocks (true

conjugate)

> > whereas the westside system trains special skills and strengths

> > equally throughout the year (more reminscent of concurrent

methods).

> > In either case it is futile to argue over which one is better or

> > worse, right or wrong, because every training system evolves

rapidly

> > over time. I.E. if you look at Louie's articles there are huge

> > variances and changes that have been made in the past ten years.

When

> > westside methods were first publicized the club had 1-1,000 plus

> > squatter, many in the 900 and 800s, several 600-700 pound

benchers,

> > and many pulling in the 700 and few in the 800s. Now westside

boasts

> > 3 or 4 1100 pound squats, close to double that hitting a grand,

> > benchers in the 800s and

> > > several guys pulling in 800s and high 700s. The bottom line is

> > that for athletes to progress, the factors that effect training,

> > special strengths, and recovery must progress. Where does the

anwsers

> > lie? Everyone is different and it will be discovered over the

> > successes and more so over the failures of athletes.

> > >

> > > Pete Arroyo

> > > d1 performance

> > > Lisle, IL

> > >

> >

>

November 22, 2007

Your view is simplistic, inaccurate, and the most prominent features

of conjugate sequence system escapes your attention.

CSS It is **not** about simple application of DE,RE,ME methods. The

system of means and methods is much more wide than ( .. De, Re ...

whatever )Likewise, the whole system of means and methods is but a

small part of the conjugate sequence system.

Do not advise the list members to " forget about Verkhoshansky's

terminology " , for conjugate sequence system is so much more than a

terminology. What you describe down is not conjugate sequence system,

by any stretch of imagination, and you should realize that methods of

training from Weightlifting are not best suited for other olympic sports.

So please, make an effort and gather a minimal understanding of

conjugate sequence system before talking about it.

respectfully,

Dan Partelly

Oradea, Romania

> > > >

> > > > No one really knows for sure but as it has been explained by

>

> > > (powerdevelopmentinc.com) the russian conjugate system

> follows

> > > more of a block scheme in which special skills and strengths are

> > > trained in varying volumes during progressive blocks (true

> conjugate)

> > > whereas the westside system trains special skills and strengths

> > > equally throughout the year (more reminscent of concurrent

> methods).

> > > In either case it is futile to argue over which one is better or

> > > worse, right or wrong, because every training system evolves

> rapidly

> > > over time. I.E. if you look at Louie's articles there are huge

> > > variances and changes that have been made in the past ten years.

> When

> > > westside methods were first publicized the club had 1-1,000 plus

> > > squatter, many in the 900 and 800s, several 600-700 pound

> benchers,

> > > and many pulling in the 700 and few in the 800s. Now westside

> boasts

> > > 3 or 4 1100 pound squats, close to double that hitting a grand,

> > > benchers in the 800s and

> > > > several guys pulling in 800s and high 700s. The bottom line is

> > > that for athletes to progress, the factors that effect training,

> > > special strengths, and recovery must progress. Where does the

> anwsers

> > > lie? Everyone is different and it will be discovered over the

> > > successes and more so over the failures of athletes.

> > > >

> > > > Pete Arroyo

> > > > d1 performance

> > > > Lisle, IL

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

November 22, 2007

Dan,

I will keep your thoughts in mind.

Thank you,

Silva

andria, VA

> > > > >

> > > > > No one really knows for sure but as it has been explained by

> >

> > > > (powerdevelopmentinc.com) the russian conjugate system

> > follows

> > > > more of a block scheme in which special skills and strengths

are

> > > > trained in varying volumes during progressive blocks (true

> > conjugate)

> > > > whereas the westside system trains special skills and

strengths

> > > > equally throughout the year (more reminscent of concurrent

> > methods).

> > > > In either case it is futile to argue over which one is better

or

> > > > worse, right or wrong, because every training system evolves

> > rapidly

> > > > over time. I.E. if you look at Louie's articles there are

huge

> > > > variances and changes that have been made in the past ten

years.

> > When

> > > > westside methods were first publicized the club had 1-1,000

plus

> > > > squatter, many in the 900 and 800s, several 600-700 pound

> > benchers,

> > > > and many pulling in the 700 and few in the 800s. Now westside

> > boasts

> > > > 3 or 4 1100 pound squats, close to double that hitting a

grand,

> > > > benchers in the 800s and

> > > > > several guys pulling in 800s and high 700s. The bottom

line is

> > > > that for athletes to progress, the factors that effect

training,

> > > > special strengths, and recovery must progress. Where does the

> > anwsers

> > > > lie? Everyone is different and it will be discovered over the

> > > > successes and more so over the failures of athletes.

> > > > >

> > > > > Pete Arroyo

> > > > > d1 performance

> > > > > Lisle, IL

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

November 23, 2007

When I first started studying about powerlifting I naturally came

across the Westside info. Being the studious type I then bought

several of the actual Russian manuals that Louie referenced.

I have about 6 of them now.

If you are into westside theory you OWE it to yourself to go to the

source. Louie left a lot of meat on the bone and when you read the

manuals yourself you will be wondering how Louie drew some of his

conclusions. For instance Louie chose to REPLACE the " classical "

powerlifting exercises with alternative exercises while the manuals

state specifically that one can NOT replace the classical lifts with

other exercises etc.

It has been discussed and seems pretty well accepted that the

westside usage of " conjugate " has very little to do with the usage by

Verkhoshansky et al. There is a lengthy thread over on tnation

called " Death to the Conjugate Method " . It has also been discussed on

Dr Verkhoshanskys forum and on Bodybuilding.com.

IMO things would be SO much clearer if Louie just called his

training " concurrent " or " complex " instead of conjugate. As it

stands, right now the word " conjugate " has no real meaning to western

minds due to the confusion from Louie basically using the word

conjugate to mean almost the dead OPPOSITE of what Verkhoshansky used

it for, lol.

Randy

Danville, Va

November 23, 2007

When I first started studying about powerlifting I naturally came

across the Westside info. Being the studious type I then bought

several of the actual Russian manuals that Louie referenced.

I have about 6 of them now.

If you are into westside theory you OWE it to yourself to go to the

source. Louie left a lot of meat on the bone and when you read the

manuals yourself you will be wondering how Louie drew some of his

conclusions. For instance Louie chose to REPLACE the " classical "

powerlifting exercises with alternative exercises while the manuals

state specifically that one can NOT replace the classical lifts with

other exercises etc.

It has been discussed and seems pretty well accepted that the

westside usage of " conjugate " has very little to do with the usage by

Verkhoshansky et al. There is a lengthy thread over on tnation

called " Death to the Conjugate Method " . It has also been discussed on

Dr Verkhoshanskys forum and on Bodybuilding.com.

IMO things would be SO much clearer if Louie just called his

training " concurrent " or " complex " instead of conjugate. As it

stands, right now the word " conjugate " has no real meaning to western

minds due to the confusion from Louie basically using the word

conjugate to mean almost the dead OPPOSITE of what Verkhoshansky used

it for, lol.

Randy

Danville, Va

November 23, 2007

Dan Partelly,

If you could be so kind then to explain to us the difference. Since

you know exactly what it is.

I am confused and no one seems to know the difference.

[Mod: Please re-read through the below summaries written by Dan and Dr

Verkhoshansky]

Thanks

Carlton

Junior Fitness Instructor

Oxfordshire

United Kingdom

> > > > >

> > > > > No one really knows for sure but as it has been explained by

> >

> > > > (powerdevelopmentinc.com) the russian conjugate system

> > follows

> > > > more of a block scheme in which special skills and strengths are

> > > > trained in varying volumes during progressive blocks (true

> > conjugate)

> > > > whereas the westside system trains special skills and strengths

> > > > equally throughout the year (more reminscent of concurrent

> > methods).

> > > > In either case it is futile to argue over which one is better or

> > > > worse, right or wrong, because every training system evolves

> > rapidly

> > > > over time. I.E. if you look at Louie's articles there are huge

> > > > variances and changes that have been made in the past ten years.

> > When

> > > > westside methods were first publicized the club had 1-1,000 plus

> > > > squatter, many in the 900 and 800s, several 600-700 pound

> > benchers,

> > > > and many pulling in the 700 and few in the 800s. Now westside

> > boasts

> > > > 3 or 4 1100 pound squats, close to double that hitting a grand,

> > > > benchers in the 800s and

> > > > > several guys pulling in 800s and high 700s. The bottom line is

> > > > that for athletes to progress, the factors that effect training,

> > > > special strengths, and recovery must progress. Where does the

> > anwsers

> > > > lie? Everyone is different and it will be discovered over the

> > > > successes and more so over the failures of athletes.

> > > > >

> > > > > Pete Arroyo

> > > > > d1 performance

> > > > > Lisle, IL

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

November 24, 2007

The only similarity between the two is the term " conjugate " in their

names. Its like asking somebody to explain the differences between a

cat and a dog.

Some explanations, but very superficially, since one can write a

whole book on organization of training:

In the conjugate sequence system training is organized in blocks,

conjugated in sequence. In each block the training loads have a

different emphasis. For example max-strength, max anaerobic power,

strength endurance. The order of blocks is strict and is chosen in

such a way that each subsequent block builds over the previous ones.

Prominent features are:

- training effect ensure by volume,intensity,density and usage of a

system of means which have a increasing training effect on the body.

for example for realization of explosive strength the system of means

can consist of back squats, squat jumps, depth jumps.

- concentration of strength loads and therefore one must account for

long term lagging of the training effect.

- emphasis of the training loads is shifted gradually, there is no

abrupt delimitation

-more then one ability can be emphasised during a bloc, for example

the contents of loading in a block can be geared toward realization of

both max-strength and strength endurance.

The system was designed for very high level athletes.

Many ppl would argue that Westisde is a " concurrent system " in which

multiple abilities are developed at the same time. But IMO this aint

really true, since the *contents of loading* in their training always

put emphasis on **realization of max-strength**. They basically put

emphasis on a single ability, despite having a " speed " day.

Ive seen that usage of word " conjugate " confuses many ppl. " Russian

conjugate periodization " is even more dramatic.

Ppl interested in organization and programming of training should read:

1. Periodization: Theory and Methodology of Training by Dr. Tudor Bompa

2.Programming and organization by Y. Verkhoshansky

3.Special strength training by Y. Verkhoshansky

4.Fundamentals of special strength training in sport by Y.Verkhoshansky

I would advise against trying to improve education through online

articles on various sites on internet. Many of the articles on

internet are full of mistakes and misunderstandings, and some, despite

being written by widely known and admired online gurus , have glaring

errors. I am not against developing education through new mens offered

by internet, but first build a solid base which allows you to see

through the bullshit and easily recognize errors and limits.

You cant apply a system in practice as long as you dont understand it

throughly.

Dan Partelly

Oradea, Romania

> > > > > >

> > > > > > No one really knows for sure but as it has been explained by

> > >

> > > > > (powerdevelopmentinc.com) the russian conjugate system

> > > follows

> > > > > more of a block scheme in which special skills and strengths are

> > > > > trained in varying volumes during progressive blocks (true

> > > conjugate)

> > > > > whereas the westside system trains special skills and strengths

> > > > > equally throughout the year (more reminscent of concurrent

> > > methods).

> > > > > In either case it is futile to argue over which one is better or

> > > > > worse, right or wrong, because every training system evolves

> > > rapidly

> > > > > over time. I.E. if you look at Louie's articles there are huge

> > > > > variances and changes that have been made in the past ten years.

> > > When

> > > > > westside methods were first publicized the club had 1-1,000 plus

> > > > > squatter, many in the 900 and 800s, several 600-700 pound

> > > benchers,

> > > > > and many pulling in the 700 and few in the 800s. Now westside

> > > boasts

> > > > > 3 or 4 1100 pound squats, close to double that hitting a grand,

> > > > > benchers in the 800s and

> > > > > > several guys pulling in 800s and high 700s. The bottom

line is

> > > > > that for athletes to progress, the factors that effect training,

> > > > > special strengths, and recovery must progress. Where does the

> > > anwsers

> > > > > lie? Everyone is different and it will be discovered over the

> > > > > successes and more so over the failures of athletes.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Pete Arroyo

> > > > > > d1 performance

> > > > > > Lisle, IL

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

November 24, 2007