Re: Lifting Off the Floor

[Guest guest]

Just a question about what you mentioned at the end. How would a squat help to

improve strength for your clean more than a deadlift? Is it because of body

position? Would front squats be more beneficial?

Krzyminski Jr

Indianapolis IN

====================

To: Supertraining@...: kshobman@...: Tue, 18 Dec

2007 11:39:54 -0600Subject: Re: Lifting Off the Floor

Nick - the position in the clean and the position in the deadlift are two

completely different things. In the deadlift the shoulders stay behind the bar

and the bar is pulled into the body in the lift. In the clean the shoulders stay

in front of the bar as long as possible - till the explosion. The movements are

similar, but very different.I don't see using heavy weights to help the clean. I

would suggest a much different approach.1. The motor patterns on the two lifts

are similar enough to create some confusion. If at all a possibility I would

suggest using the sumo deadlift instead of the conventional for powerlifting.2.

If the lower back is rounding in the deadlift, than train that. I think you

would be better off using the good morning exercise than using a heavier

deadlift weight.3. If form is deteriorating in the first and second pull in the

clean than work on form. Possibly try a top down progression using a dead- hang

clean and then progress down to the hang, below the knees and then work off the

floor.Consider this from a point of motor-learning rather than muscular

strength. I'm using an idea developed off Schema theory (by Schmidt) and

developed by McClements and on. In schema theory you develop a recall

schema - a canned motor program so to speak of how the movement progresses; and

a recognition schema - what you could consider a template of movement that you

compare how you are moving to. The problem you have right now is that what feels

right (recognition schema) is wrong and what is right feels wrong.The problem

probably stems from using two very similar, but very different movements. Hence

my first advice - get rid of the neural confusion by switching to the sumo

deadlift. Build strength with a movement which will not cause motor learning

issues (point 2).And then rebuild the recognition schema using a Neo-Bernstein

approach of freezing out degrees of freedom and then adding them back in as you

improve in the movement.Spoken as a powerlifter trying to convert to OL myself.

Deadlift strength does not translate into a good clean. There is little

specificity. The speed is too different and the deadlift virtually stops when

the clean is in its most vital phase - the explosion. Use the squat to build

strength and transfer the strength to the clean and jerk and snatch. Treat the

deadlift as a completely different movement.On 18-Dec-07, at 6:22 AM,

nicktatalias wrote:> I have trouble lifting my heavier deadlifts off the floor

if it goes> past my knees then I will always lock it out but the first part of>

my deadlift I seem to struggle. My back seems to round on the heavy> lifts.>>

Similarly I struggle with my heavy cleans. It is much lighter than> the

deadlifts but the first pull is where I seem to struggle and> transition from

first to second pull is inconsistent, from timing> and body position. I sometime

hit my thighs about half way up on the> explosion (the scoop should hit near the

top of the thighs)>> A few ideas I have for improving the lifts are:> 1. Do the

deadlifts standing on low 6inch blocks. This then> increases the movement length

in the difficult range of motion, I> hope the body adapts to this position.> 2.

Practice first pulls for the cleans, do reps heavier than the> target clean and

then go lighter in the series. The idea I have> here is to make the body adapt

to the heavier weight then groove the> form with the lighter weights. The heavy

weight would build in> unison with light weight aiming to get the light weight

to the> competition lifting weight.>> These were my idea's what do others think.

What is the experience> of the group with either their own lifting or others.>>

I compete in both power lifting and weightlifting, although master>

weightlifting is my main aim at this stage. I have been training to> compete for

3 years now. I train raw and lift in raw competitions> for power lifting,

although I have lifted in IPF competitions with a> squat suit. I have no

specific dead lift suit. Weightlifting I> lift with out a belt and have been

training totally raw (except for> Adidas shoes) for about 9 months now, before I

would clean with a> belt.>> All ideas welcome.>> Best Regards> Nick Tatalias>

Johannesburg> South Africa.>>> HobmanSaskatoon, Canada[Non-text portions

of this message have been removed]

[Guest guest]

Nick:

I've hit week spots in my deadlift both off the floor and pulling from my

knees. Low pulls seem to help with developing strength in that particular range

of motion, and I would recommend cycling them into your program.

But it's equally important to focus on developing explosive force, since this

is really the only way to develop the momentum to get through any sticking

points. I'm sure you know this as an olympic lifter.

If you aren't training speed deadlifts, give it a try. I'd recommend 10-12

sets of two (singles, not touch and go) with 65 percent or so of your max,

taking short (30-45 seconds) breaks between sets. Since speed work can cause

significant CNS fatigue, I'd avoid training both speed and ME on the same day (I

usually do speed pulls on my squat day, and speed squats on my deadlift days).

Also, heavy rack pulls from your knees will help with that rounded back.

Remember to lead with your shoulders and keep your weight on your heels while

pulling.

Hope that helps

Andy Laughlin

Sacramento, California, USA

==========================

I have trouble lifting my heavier deadlifts off the floor if it goes

past my knees then I will always lock it out but the first part of

my deadlift I seem to struggle. My back seems to round on the heavy

lifts.

Similarly I struggle with my heavy cleans. It is much lighter than

the deadlifts but the first pull is where I seem to struggle and

transition from first to second pull is inconsistent, from timing

and body position. I sometime hit my thighs about half way up on the

explosion (the scoop should hit near the top of the thighs)

A few ideas I have for improving the lifts are:

1. Do the deadlifts standing on low 6inch blocks. This then

increases the movement length in the difficult range of motion, I

hope the body adapts to this position.

2. Practice first pulls for the cleans, do reps heavier than the

target clean and then go lighter in the series. The idea I have

here is to make the body adapt to the heavier weight then groove the

form with the lighter weights. The heavy weight would build in

unison with light weight aiming to get the light weight to the

competition lifting weight.

These were my idea's what do others think. What is the experience

of the group with either their own lifting or others.

I compete in both power lifting and weightlifting, although master

weightlifting is my main aim at this stage. I have been training to

compete for 3 years now. I train raw and lift in raw competitions

for power lifting, although I have lifted in IPF competitions with a

squat suit. I have no specific dead lift suit. Weightlifting I

lift with out a belt and have been training totally raw (except for

Adidas shoes) for about 9 months now, before I would clean with a

belt.

All ideas welcome.

===================================

[Guest guest]

One thing that my coach has me use for addressing back position and hip strength

during the first pull is hold 2 seconds below the knees after the initiation of

the pull and focus on keeping the shoulders over the bar.

One other thing you can do the help get your lower back in position is to

squeeze the shoulder blades together during your first pull.

If you are having inconsistent pull contact against your thighs, chances are

your shoulders are going backwards too early in your lift i.e. instead of

standing up, you are throwing your head and shoulders back. Focus on the the

shrug of the second pull instead of jumping (?), at least thats what my problem

was. Now that I focus on the shrug I am having much more constistent and higher

pulls.

Of course, remedial exercises such as clean pull to knee, hyperextensions with

weight, and glute/ham raises address these issues as well. But I found the

holds below the knees during the lifts make a tremendous difference in body

positioning.

I hope some of this will help.

Chandler

Lorton, VA

======================

nicktatalias wrote:

I have trouble lifting my heavier deadlifts off the floor if it goes

past my knees then I will always lock it out but the first part of

my deadlift I seem to struggle. My back seems to round on the heavy

lifts.

Similarly I struggle with my heavy cleans. It is much lighter than

the deadlifts but the first pull is where I seem to struggle and

transition from first to second pull is inconsistent, from timing

and body position. I sometime hit my thighs about half way up on the

explosion (the scoop should hit near the top of the thighs)

A few ideas I have for improving the lifts are:

1. Do the deadlifts standing on low 6inch blocks. This then

increases the movement length in the difficult range of motion, I

hope the body adapts to this position.

2. Practice first pulls for the cleans, do reps heavier than the

target clean and then go lighter in the series. The idea I have

here is to make the body adapt to the heavier weight then groove the

form with the lighter weights. The heavy weight would build in

unison with light weight aiming to get the light weight to the

competition lifting weight.

These were my idea's what do others think. What is the experience

of the group with either their own lifting or others.

I compete in both power lifting and weightlifting, although master

weightlifting is my main aim at this stage. I have been training to

compete for 3 years now. I train raw and lift in raw competitions

for power lifting, although I have lifted in IPF competitions with a

squat suit. I have no specific dead lift suit. Weightlifting I

lift with out a belt and have been training totally raw (except for

Adidas shoes) for about 9 months now, before I would clean with a

belt.

All ideas welcome.

===========================

[Guest guest]

Thank you

I will consider trying the sumo and focus on the squat to develop strength.

Do you think the power lifting squat or the high bar squat is preferable.

Lower bar position allows more weight but I can't go as deep. (The depth may

just be practice on the lower bar position).

I will try the dead hang and get that really grooved and then the hang.

Perhaps I will do the dead hang for a few weeks now- its the summer holidays

and most of South Africa shuts down for Christmas and new year, so its a

good time to go light and crack my form problems.

Any comments?

Regards

Nick Tatalias

Johannesburg

South Africa.

>

> Nick - the position in the clean and the position in the deadlift are

> two completely different things. In the deadlift the shoulders stay

> behind the bar and the bar is pulled into the body in the lift. In

> the clean the shoulders stay in front of the bar as long as possible

> - till the explosion. The movements are similar, but very different.

>

> I don't see using heavy weights to help the clean. I would suggest a

> much different approach.

>

> 1. The motor patterns on the two lifts are similar enough to create

> some confusion. If at all a possibility I would suggest using the

> sumo deadlift instead of the conventional for powerlifting.

>

> 2. If the lower back is rounding in the deadlift, than train that. I

> think you would be better off using the good morning exercise than

> using a heavier deadlift weight.

>

> 3. If form is deteriorating in the first and second pull in the clean

> than work on form. Possibly try a top down progression using a dead-

> hang clean and then progress down to the hang, below the knees and

> then work off the floor.

>

> Consider this from a point of motor-learning rather than muscular

> strength. I'm using an idea developed off Schema theory (by Schmidt)

> and developed by McClements and on. In schema theory you

> develop a recall schema - a canned motor program so to speak of how

> the movement progresses; and a recognition schema - what you could

> consider a template of movement that you compare how you are moving

> to. The problem you have right now is that what feels right

> (recognition schema) is wrong and what is right feels wrong.

>

> The problem probably stems from using two very similar, but very

> different movements. Hence my first advice - get rid of the neural

> confusion by switching to the sumo deadlift. Build strength with a

> movement which will not cause motor learning issues (point 2).

>

> And then rebuild the recognition schema using a Neo-Bernstein

> approach of freezing out degrees of freedom and then adding them back

> in as you improve in the movement.

>

> Spoken as a powerlifter trying to convert to OL myself. Deadlift

> strength does not translate into a good clean. There is little

> specificity. The speed is too different and the deadlift virtually

> stops when the clean is in its most vital phase - the explosion. Use

> the squat to build strength and transfer the strength to the clean

> and jerk and snatch. Treat the deadlift as a completely different

> movement.

>

>

>

> > I have trouble lifting my heavier deadlifts off the floor if it goes

> > past my knees then I will always lock it out but the first part of

> > my deadlift I seem to struggle. My back seems to round on the heavy

> > lifts.

> >

> > Similarly I struggle with my heavy cleans. It is much lighter than

> > the deadlifts but the first pull is where I seem to struggle and

> > transition from first to second pull is inconsistent, from timing

> > and body position. I sometime hit my thighs about half way up on the

> > explosion (the scoop should hit near the top of the thighs)

> >

> > A few ideas I have for improving the lifts are:

> > 1. Do the deadlifts standing on low 6inch blocks. This then

> > increases the movement length in the difficult range of motion, I

> > hope the body adapts to this position.

> > 2. Practice first pulls for the cleans, do reps heavier than the

> > target clean and then go lighter in the series. The idea I have

> > here is to make the body adapt to the heavier weight then groove the

> > form with the lighter weights. The heavy weight would build in

> > unison with light weight aiming to get the light weight to the

> > competition lifting weight.

> >

> > These were my idea's what do others think. What is the experience

> > of the group with either their own lifting or others.

> >

> > I compete in both power lifting and weightlifting, although master

> > weightlifting is my main aim at this stage. I have been training to

> > compete for 3 years now. I train raw and lift in raw competitions

> > for power lifting, although I have lifted in IPF competitions with a

> > squat suit. I have no specific dead lift suit. Weightlifting I

> > lift with out a belt and have been training totally raw (except for

> > Adidas shoes) for about 9 months now, before I would clean with a

> > belt.

> >

> > All ideas welcome.

> >

> > Best Regards

> > Nick Tatalias

> > Johannesburg

> > South Africa.

> >

> >

> >

>

> Hobman

> Saskatoon, Canada

>

>

[Guest guest]

Not necessarily. The front squat would likely be more specific to the

catch and recovery of the clean and possibly more specific to the

thrust in the jerk. But a back squat is quite specific. Care must be

taken not to confuse specificity with mimicry. Both the deadlift and

the squat are very slow compared to the classic lifts. They are used

for building base strength and that has to be converted to speed/

strength for the classic lifts. The deadlift certainly builds the

required base strength, but the motor pattern is too similar to the

clean. Neural confusion may result. And it really has no advantage in

terms of base strength to the full squat and some disadvantage as the

full squat works a complete ROM. If a person is focusing on the

olympic lifts themselves I really wouldn't recommend doing any

assistance exercises that are greater than 10-20% of the classic

lifts. There isn't much point. If you can clean 300 lbs is there

really any advantage to squatting more than 345 lbs? Probably not, as

base strength is high enough. So the fact I can conventional deadlift

in excess of 600 lbs doesn't help my 300 lb clean at all.

> Just a question about what you mentioned at the end. How would a

> squat help to improve strength for your clean more than a deadlift?

> Is it because of body position? Would front squats be more beneficial?

>

> Krzyminski Jr

> Indianapolis IN

>

> ====================

> To: Supertraining@...: kshobman@...:

> Tue, 18 Dec 2007 11:39:54 -0600Subject: Re: Lifting

> Off the Floor

>

> Nick - the position in the clean and the position in the deadlift

> are two completely different things. In the deadlift the shoulders

> stay behind the bar and the bar is pulled into the body in the

> lift. In the clean the shoulders stay in front of the bar as long

> as possible - till the explosion. The movements are similar, but

> very different.I don't see using heavy weights to help the clean. I

> would suggest a much different approach.1. The motor patterns on

> the two lifts are similar enough to create some confusion. If at

> all a possibility I would suggest using the sumo deadlift instead

> of the conventional for powerlifting.2. If the lower back is

> rounding in the deadlift, than train that. I think you would be

> better off using the good morning exercise than using a heavier

> deadlift weight.3. If form is deteriorating in the first and second

> pull in the clean than work on form. Possibly try a top down

> progression using a dead- hang clean and then progress down to the

> hang, below the k

>

>

Hobman

Saskatoon, Canada

[Guest guest]

Personally I would use the high bar in training predominantly.

Perhaps add in a few sets of low bar per week with some additional

weight. Then, if you have a powerlifting competition six weeks out

switch to predominantly low bar.

I like 's comment on doing a 2 second static in the proper

position as well. Good training for building the template of movement

I was referring to.

> Thank you

>

> I will consider trying the sumo and focus on the squat to develop

> strength.

> Do you think the power lifting squat or the high bar squat is

> preferable.

> Lower bar position allows more weight but I can't go as deep. (The

> depth may

> just be practice on the lower bar position).

>

> I will try the dead hang and get that really grooved and then the

> hang.

> Perhaps I will do the dead hang for a few weeks now- its the summer

> holidays

> and most of South Africa shuts down for Christmas and new year, so

> its a

> good time to go light and crack my form problems.

>

> Any comments?

>

> Regards

> Nick Tatalias

> Johannesburg

> South Africa.

>

>

> >

> > Nick - the position in the clean and the position in the deadlift

> are

> > two completely different things. In the deadlift the shoulders stay

> > behind the bar and the bar is pulled into the body in the lift. In

> > the clean the shoulders stay in front of the bar as long as possible

> > - till the explosion. The movements are similar, but very different.

> >

> > I don't see using heavy weights to help the clean. I would suggest a

> > much different approach.

> >

> > 1. The motor patterns on the two lifts are similar enough to create

> > some confusion. If at all a possibility I would suggest using the

> > sumo deadlift instead of the conventional for powerlifting.

> >

> > 2. If the lower back is rounding in the deadlift, than train that. I

> > think you would be better off using the good morning exercise than

> > using a heavier deadlift weight.

> >

> > 3. If form is deteriorating in the first and second pull in the

> clean

> > than work on form. Possibly try a top down progression using a dead-

> > hang clean and then progress down to the hang, below the knees and

> > then work off the floor.

> >

> > Consider this from a point of motor-learning rather than muscular

> > strength. I'm using an idea developed off Schema theory (by Schmidt)

> > and developed by McClements and on. In schema theory you

> > develop a recall schema - a canned motor program so to speak of how

> > the movement progresses; and a recognition schema - what you could

> > consider a template of movement that you compare how you are moving

> > to. The problem you have right now is that what feels right

> > (recognition schema) is wrong and what is right feels wrong.

> >

> > The problem probably stems from using two very similar, but very

> > different movements. Hence my first advice - get rid of the neural

> > confusion by switching to the sumo deadlift. Build strength with a

> > movement which will not cause motor learning issues (point 2).

> >

> > And then rebuild the recognition schema using a Neo-Bernstein

> > approach of freezing out degrees of freedom and then adding them

> back

> > in as you improve in the movement.

> >

> > Spoken as a powerlifter trying to convert to OL myself. Deadlift

> > strength does not translate into a good clean. There is little

> > specificity. The speed is too different and the deadlift virtually

> > stops when the clean is in its most vital phase - the explosion. Use

> > the squat to build strength and transfer the strength to the clean

> > and jerk and snatch. Treat the deadlift as a completely different

> > movement.

> >

> >

> >

> > > I have trouble lifting my heavier deadlifts off the floor if it

> goes

> > > past my knees then I will always lock it out but the first part of

> > > my deadlift I seem to struggle. My back seems to round on the

> heavy

> > > lifts.

> > >

> > > Similarly I struggle with my heavy cleans. It is much lighter than

> > > the deadlifts but the first pull is where I seem to struggle and

> > > transition from first to second pull is inconsistent, from timing

> > > and body position. I sometime hit my thighs about half way up

> on the

> > > explosion (the scoop should hit near the top of the thighs)

> > >

> > > A few ideas I have for improving the lifts are:

> > > 1. Do the deadlifts standing on low 6inch blocks. This then

> > > increases the movement length in the difficult range of motion, I

> > > hope the body adapts to this position.

> > > 2. Practice first pulls for the cleans, do reps heavier than the

> > > target clean and then go lighter in the series. The idea I have

> > > here is to make the body adapt to the heavier weight then

> groove the

> > > form with the lighter weights. The heavy weight would build in

> > > unison with light weight aiming to get the light weight to the

> > > competition lifting weight.

> > >

> > > These were my idea's what do others think. What is the experience

> > > of the group with either their own lifting or others.

> > >

> > > I compete in both power lifting and weightlifting, although master

> > > weightlifting is my main aim at this stage. I have been

> training to

> > > compete for 3 years now. I train raw and lift in raw competitions

> > > for power lifting, although I have lifted in IPF competitions

> with a

> > > squat suit. I have no specific dead lift suit. Weightlifting I

> > > lift with out a belt and have been training totally raw (except

> for

> > > Adidas shoes) for about 9 months now, before I would clean with a

> > > belt.

> > >

> > > All ideas welcome.

> > >

> > > Best Regards

> > > Nick Tatalias

> > > Johannesburg

> > > South Africa.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> > Hobman

> > Saskatoon, Canada

> >

> >