Re: Squats and how to fix it?

[Guest guest]

I had this discussion with Dr. Siff one time. He was of the opinion that

the best way to develop flexibility for the squat was to perform the

front squat or overhead squat. His theory was that you got immediate

proprioceptive feedback if the lower back rounded. It was a good point.

One of the potential problems with it is the pelvis can still tilt at

the bottom of the front squat while the torso remains upright. I think

that is more difficult to do with the overhead squat. Of course the

weight used is also much smaller, which can be an advantage when you are

trying to teach good techique.

To me the one common element of good technique in the squat is a flat

back. Whether wide or narrow for most people this would be a key

training point. Depth should only be as low as the back can be kept

flat. I've powerlifted and I', now an olympic lifter so I squat deep and

advocate deep squats - as long as the back can be kept flat.

tlanger wrote:

> Damien,

>

> I think this thread leads into another very interesting topic; how do you

> correct someone's inability to squat correctly. After all, squatting

> is one

> of the most functional and fundamental movements and that's for both

> GPP and

> SPP (although their styles/reasons will differ). So, how do you problem

> solve if a person's kinetic chain is " off " or in other words their

> ankle/hip

> lack mobility, knee/core lack stability, etc. I've personally

> studied/tried

> practically everything under the sun and my current position is to train a

> wide assortment of " natural " movement patterns, not muscles and thus,

> emphasize an area while simultaneously integrating the entire body. Of

> course, there are exceptions to every rule and it's not " bad " to isolate

> during the early stages of rehab to regain structural integrity; for

> example, if an ankle lacks stability it's usually wise to bring it up to

> par. However, IMO to break up the kinetic chain with isolation indirectly

> states we know better than Mother Nature and I, for one, try to work with

> the inherent wisdom of the body. I'd love to hear how you, and other savvy

> trainers, work with different segments of the kinetic chain that lack

> mobility, stability, etc.

>

> Thanks,

> Todd Langer, MSc, Rolfer

> Boulder, CO

> www.balance2posture.com <http://www.balance2posture.com/

> <http://www.balance2posture.com/>>

>

> ==============================

>

> _____

>

> From: Supertraining

> <mailto:Supertraining%40yahoogroups.com>

> [mailto:Supertraining

> <mailto:Supertraining%40yahoogroups.com>]

> On Behalf Of boxeraugust

> Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2007 9:53 AM

> To: Supertraining <mailto:Supertraining%40yahoogroups.com>

> Subject: Re: Squats - Heel raised?

>

> ,

>

> You have turned this into some attack on your style of squatting. The

> original poster asked a question regarding squatting with the heel

> elevated

> and squatting with out elevation. This had nothing to do with

> squatting for

> powerlifting performance or Olympic lifting or a wide squatting style.

> GENERALLY there is no need to elevate the heel when squatting. Those

> that do

> either have poor flexibility and/or their feet to close together for their

> limb length. When training an athlete that's sport is NOT competitive

> lifting the majority of his squatting if not all of it should be done

> without heel elevation. The majority of the general gym population need

> flexibility and should not raise their heels just to be able to squat

> deeper

> at the expense of getting more flexible or learning proper squatting

> motion.

> Todd Langer made a great example of it when he stated that it is GPP

> for the

> average gym goer compared to SPP for the competitive lifter.

>

> Yes in general a narrower squatting stance will get you deeper than a wide

> stance, However that is not what you said in your response. You made the

> innuendo that the wide stance squatters squat high, as in above parallel.

> That is unfair of you. While they may not have their ass on their heels

> there have been many tremendously huge squats below parallel (crease

> at hip

> below top of knee).

>

> Just for info: Dave Tate is EliteFitness now.

>

> I have been involved in the weight game for over 25 years and have made my

> living at it for a little over 16 years, so I too have quite a bit of

> experience. I respect all the athletes of power sports and don't think it

> behooves anybody to point fingers at others and make general claims that

> they squat high or they ware suits or so forth. Whatever organization you

> choose to lift is is great, whatever style you choose to lift with is fine

> as well. Everybody involved in the power sports trains hard day in an day

> out to improve their totals. Give them their respect instead of knocking

> them for whatever reason.

>

> Regarding " Captain " Kirk Karwalski (thanks for the spelling correction) I

> didn't say it was a box squat. I mentioned it because it was a good squat

> with a mid stance and I believe he wore high top basketball shoes when he

> did it, no heel elevation.

>

> I did mention box squats as to the ability to squat deep with a wide

> stance

> and that it is done regularly.

>

> Your point was that you jumped on all of those who responded as if we

> attacked your style of squatting. We were not talking about

> powerlifting as

> the original poster made no reference to that. We were talking in GENERAL.

>

> My experience is dealing with a wide base of the population...general

> people

> looking to get fit, athletes, elderly, rehab, powerlifters and so

> forth. The

> majority of people lack flexibility. If I were to just throw a board

> or 10lb

> plates under their heels to let them squat deeper ,I would be doing them a

> disservice. The majority of peole also lack proper squat mechanics ( quad

> dominate knee move before hips) and this must also be corrected ass it is

> one of the reasons for the heels coming up as well as weak hamstrings and

> glutes.

>

> You also brought deadlifting into this. The ROM for the deadlift is

> nowhere

> near the ROM for the deep squat so the flexibility that is needed to squat

> deep is greater than the flexibility to deadlift.

>

> You seem to look at everything from a powerlifting perspective, that does

> not always work with the general population.

>

> Continued success with your lifting!

> =========================

>

--

Hobman

Saskatoon, CANADA

[Guest guest]

>

> Damien,

>

> I think this thread leads into another very interesting topic; how

do you

> correct someone's inability to squat correctly. After all,

squatting is one

> of the most functional and fundamental movements and that's for

both GPP and

> SPP (although their styles/reasons will differ). So, how do you

problem

> solve if a person's kinetic chain is " off " or in other words their

ankle/hip

> lack mobility, knee/core lack stability, etc. I've personally

studied/tried

> practically everything under the sun and my current position is to

train a

> wide assortment of " natural " movement patterns, not muscles and

thus,

> emphasize an area while simultaneously integrating the entire body.

Of

> course, there are exceptions to every rule and it's not " bad " to

isolate

> during the early stages of rehab to regain structural integrity; for

> example, if an ankle lacks stability it's usually wise to bring it

up to

> par. However, IMO to break up the kinetic chain with isolation

indirectly

> states we know better than Mother Nature and I, for one, try to

work with

> the inherent wisdom of the body. I'd love to hear how you, and

other savvy

> trainers, work with different segments of the kinetic chain that

lack

> mobility, stability, etc.

>

****

* Just Squat! – Use Dr Siff's statute of limitations e.g., limited duration,

speed, range of motion, load and then progress. Alter the stance, foot

positions, footwear... " Form is rooted in function? "

* Use a number of the basic principles from PNF:

1. Repeat the contractions with good form; the number of repetitions

determines the outcome – progression.

2. Select the " optimal " sensory cues, as you have suggested placing a band

around

the knees can be helpful or provide some resistance with your fingers.

3. Provide the individual with mental images e.g., tell them their

underpants are about to drop down and if they don't push their knees

out they will expose themselves:) " Potty " training etc..

4. Use various facilitation techniques e.g., stroking, massage, slap, EMS, heat,

ice, squeeze, palpate, (use cuffs, bands, bungees - a client may be able to feel

the pressure alter through the given range of movement...)

* Provide them with specific coaching cues such as push the outside of the foot

against the side of your shoes (Dave Tate, Louie ).

* Goblet Squat (a la Dan style) - hold a dumbbell at one end with hands

positioned if you were going to catch a ball (cricket or tennis ball) close to

the body at chest height. When they lower their elbows will ensure they have to

force their knees out.

* Ensure optimal " mind " (arousal?) involvement - motivate, reward, get the

client " engaged " - Having excellent spotters really seems to help clients

" focus " . Principle of awareness? Why am I doing this movement / exercise?

See below:

http://21learn.org/publ/abbott_speech.html

We've tended to think of ourselves and our behaviour in rational

logical terms, but our emotions more often direct the decision.

Emotion drives attention, which drives learning, memory, and

behaviour - and so emotion is the triggering mechanism for just about

everything we do. Far more neural fibers project from our brain's

relatively small emotional center into the large rational/logical

cortex than the reverse.

Our brain's complex collection of neural networks process our

cognitive activity. Individual networks that process specific

functions combine to process more complex functions. Several dozen

neurotransmitter and hormonal systems provide the key chemical

substrate of this marvelous information-processing system.

You see learning has to do with a hunger to make sense of something.

The whole brain, including the emotions, has to be engaged. If you

separate emotion from intellect you court disaster.

-----------

Concentration increases muscle stimulation:

Siff... you want to achieve total concentration in every

exercise, focusing all your senses into it. This leads to greater

tension in the muscle, greater nervous activation. "

================

Carruthers

Wakefield, UK

[Guest guest]

Todd,

I agree it is one of the most functional and fundamental movements for both GPP

and SPP. I would also agree that it is more important to train movements and not

muscles.Isolation type movement should only be used as you stated to rehab an

injury early in the process and also maybe at some other very limited times. The

bodybuilders are going to get riled up with that statement.

I tend to promote training legs with more importance as I feel they are your

foundation and can create problems up the kinetic chain and skeletal system if

you have disfunction, lack flexibility and strength from the waist down.

The answer to your prose has many different responses depending on what the

problem at hand is with the squatting technique. If I try to answer it with a

general response much will be left out that I feel can effect the performance

of the motion and the answer will be very long if I just start going through

every possible remedy for each inccorrect action that people present.

so to get things started:

I always start with bodyweight prisoner box squats and prisoner squats facing a

wall as an assesment and traing tool for proper execution of the squat. So what

do you want to address first as the incorrect techinique can have multiple

reasons?

Train hard and smart!

Damien Chiappini

Pittsburgh, PA.

Re: Squats - Heel raised?

,

You have turned this into some attack on your style of squatting. The

original poster asked a question regarding squatting with the heel elevated

and squatting with out elevation. This had nothing to do with squatting for

powerlifting performance or Olympic lifting or a wide squatting style.

GENERALLY there is no need to elevate the heel when squatting. Those that do

either have poor flexibility and/or their feet to close together for their

limb length. When training an athlete that's sport is NOT competitive

lifting the majority of his squatting if not all of it should be done

without heel elevation. The majority of the general gym population need

flexibility and should not raise their heels just to be able to squat deeper

at the expense of getting more flexible or learning proper squatting motion.

Todd Langer made a great example of it when he stated that it is GPP for the

average gym goer compared to SPP for the competitive lifter.

Yes in general a narrower squatting stance will get you deeper than a wide

stance, However that is not what you said in your response. You made the

innuendo that the wide stance squatters squat high, as in above parallel.

That is unfair of you. While they may not have their ass on their heels

there have been many tremendously huge squats below parallel (crease at hip

below top of knee).

Just for info: Dave Tate is EliteFitness now.

I have been involved in the weight game for over 25 years and have made my

living at it for a little over 16 years, so I too have quite a bit of

experience. I respect all the athletes of power sports and don't think it

behooves anybody to point fingers at others and make general claims that

they squat high or they ware suits or so forth. Whatever organization you

choose to lift is is great, whatever style you choose to lift with is fine

as well. Everybody involved in the power sports trains hard day in an day

out to improve their totals. Give them their respect instead of knocking

them for whatever reason.

Regarding " Captain " Kirk Karwalski (thanks for the spelling correction) I

didn't say it was a box squat. I mentioned it because it was a good squat

with a mid stance and I believe he wore high top basketball shoes when he

did it, no heel elevation.

I did mention box squats as to the ability to squat deep with a wide stance

and that it is done regularly.

Your point was that you jumped on all of those who responded as if we

attacked your style of squatting. We were not talking about powerlifting as

the original poster made no reference to that. We were talking in GENERAL.

My experience is dealing with a wide base of the population.. .general people

looking to get fit, athletes, elderly, rehab, powerlifters and so forth. The

majority of people lack flexibility. If I were to just throw a board or 10lb

plates under their heels to let them squat deeper ,I would be doing them a

disservice. The majority of peole also lack proper squat mechanics ( quad

dominate knee move before hips) and this must also be corrected ass it is

one of the reasons for the heels coming up as well as weak hamstrings and

glutes.

You also brought deadlifting into this. The ROM for the deadlift is nowhere

near the ROM for the deep squat so the flexibility that is needed to squat

deep is greater than the flexibility to deadlift.

You seem to look at everything from a powerlifting perspective, that does

not always work with the general population.

Continued success with your lifting!

============ ========= ====

[Guest guest]

Hi Todd,

I definitely agree about how fundamental and important squatting is.

Some of the tools I use:

1. (From a Pavel Tsatsouline stretching seminar), do some slow,

repetitive active stretching for any tight joints AND the ones above

and below. For example, have someone do some active, repetitive

stretches for the ankle (calves). If you ask the person how it felt

before/after, the stretching can make a huge difference.

2. (From various sources), use hands-on cues to help connect

people's brains to muscles they need to recruit or areas they need to

fix. If a person's knees keep caving in, just lightly hold the

inside of the knees in the proper position--and then ask them how it

felt and if they felt where it was different. You can actually touch

the areas themselves as well, similar to the " controlled striking "

Pavel describes as taking place in martial arts to help activate

(brace) muscles. (Ask client's permission to use touch cues).

3. Try putting small plates or shims under the toes (1/4 to 1/2-inch

thick) to get people to use their heels and therefore their glutes.

4. Try a descending pyramid strategy for developing these motor

skills (5, 4, 3, . . ., or similar). Stuart McGill suggests such a

strategy to decrease the effects of fatigue on grooving motor

patterns (Ultimate Back Fitness and Performance).

5. Watch every rep and keep person them reflecting on what the reps

feel like.

6. Have people start becoming aware of habits they (and others they

observe) have of using their arms to help them rise from a chair or

sit down--and stop doing it as much as possible. Use it or lose it.

As Dr. Jolie Bookspan points out in her books, doing exercises in the

gym or for PT is somewhat useless if you return to the same

dysfunctional habitual movement patterns you already have. Practice,

practice, practice!

I hope these ideas give you food for thought. Let me know if you'd

like me to expand on any of them.

Merrick, M.A.

ACSM HFI, NSCA CPT/CSCS, NASM CPT

Bellevue, NE USA

>

>Damien,

>

> I think this thread leads into another very interesting topic; how

do you correct someone's inability to squat correctly. After all,

squatting is one of the most functional and fundamental movements and

that's for both GPP and SPP (although their styles/reasons will

differ). So, how do you problem solve if a person's kinetic chain

is " off " or in other words their ankle/hip lack mobility, knee/core

lack stability, etc. I've personally studied/tried practically

everything under the sun and my current position is to train a

wide assortment of " natural " movement patterns, not muscles and thus,

emphasize an area while simultaneously integrating the entire body. Of

course, there are exceptions to every rule and it's not " bad " to

isolate during the early stages of rehab to regain structural

integrity; for example, if an ankle lacks stability it's usually wise

to bring it up to par. However, IMO to break up the kinetic chain

with isolation indirectly states we know better than Mother Nature

and I, for one, try to work with the inherent wisdom of the body. I'd

love to hear how you, and other savvy trainers, work with different

segments of the kinetic chain that lack mobility, stability, etc.

Thanks,

Todd Langer, MSc, Rolfer

Boulder, CO

www.balance2posture.com <http://www.balance2posture.com/>

[Guest guest]

Todd,

I would agree that the knee pretty much is along for the ride. I also tend to

feel that other than the obvious, we need to look at the joint above and/or

below the problem as this can/will manifest itself somewhere along the chain as

a compensatory issue.

I try to keep things simple as I think we sometimes tend to over think issues

and miss simple solutions.

First rule: No running shoes.

I usually go right to the feet and look to see if there is a

pronation/supination issue. This will cause ankle/ knee issues with respect to

tibial rotation. Pattern recruitment issues that you see when an individual

squats, typically weight medial side of foot (pronate excessively) knees move

toward mid-line and drive forward before hip flexion starts, quad./adductor

activity increases with little hamstring /glute activity. This type usually have

tight and weak hamstrings from dealling with an inordinate amount of quad

activity in daily lives and poor glute recruitment. These types typically have

less of a lordosis in lumbar region due to superior posterior rotation of hips

again from the hamstring/glute issue. (This of course can now present a lower

back issue for some.) . Driving the knees forward and tucking the hip moves the

COM forward and now the spine will round to try to maintain a sense of balance

as the body's upper mass has now moved

behind the COM. While simultaneously the ball of foot area has sensed an

increase in pressure due to knees driving first, overpronation and spine

rounding. The automatic response is to fire the gastroc/soleus as a means to

maintain balance and resist the forward pressure This inhibits ankle

dorsiflexion, the individual to rises up on the toes and appears to have poor

ankle flexibility.

Is this the type of squat mechanics that you see in most individuals?

I start this type with activities that increase glute awareness; Donkey kicks,

fire hydrants bird dogs, toy soldiers, x-band walks, BW glute bridging with

abduction, then glute bridging on a jump/stretch platform with bands as

resistance, then togu ball heel press/glute bride and then to a SHELC . They

also are doing prisoner squats facing a wall during all sessions to learn to

squat with better sequencing. This is BW for repetitions repetitions,

repetitions, to learn a new recruitment pattern.

Let me know what your insight is so far and we can continue.

I would agree that this is good discussion for positive growth.

Damien Chiappini

Pittsburgh PA.

===========================

Squats and how to fix it?

Damien,

I think this thread leads into another very interesting topic; how do you

correct someone's inability to squat correctly. After all, squatting is one

of the most functional and fundamental movements and that's for both GPP and

SPP (although their styles/reasons will differ). So, how do you problem

solve if a person's kinetic chain is " off " or in other words their ankle/hip

lack mobility, knee/core lack stability, etc. I've personally studied/tried

practically everything under the sun and my current position is to train a

wide assortment of " natural " movement patterns, not muscles and thus,

emphasize an area while simultaneously integrating the entire body. Of

course, there are exceptions to every rule and it's not " bad " to isolate

during the early stages of rehab to regain structural integrity; for

example, if an ankle lacks stability it's usually wise to bring it up to

par. However, IMO to break up the kinetic chain with isolation indirectly

states we know better than Mother Nature and I, for one, try to work with

the inherent wisdom of the body. I'd love to hear how you, and other savvy

trainers, work with different segments of the kinetic chain that lack

mobility, stability, etc.

Thanks,

Todd Langer, MSc, Rolfer

Boulder, CO

www.balance2posture .com <http://www.balance2 posture.com/ >

============ ========= =========

[Guest guest]

I would agree that the knee pretty much is along for the ride. I also tend to

feel that other than the obvious, we need to look at the joint above and/or

below the problem as this can/will manifest itself somewhere along the chain as

a compensatory issue.

I try to keep things simple as I think we sometimes tend to over think issues

and miss simple solutions.

COMMENT: I think you’re dead-on and keeping it simple is the key; it reminds me

of the Ida Rolf quote about Structural Integration, “be comfortable in not

knowing” or in other words you eventually reach a level of understanding that

allows you to “simply” listen to the wisdom of the body. IMO many people

want/need something tangible to ALWAYS be the same and thus, provide a false

sense of security in dealing with the body.

DAMIEN: You hit the nail on the head with this one.

" IMO many people want/need something tangible to ALWAYS be the same and

thus, provide a false sense of security in dealing with the body. "

----

I would agree that the knee pretty much is along for the ride. I also tend to

feel that other than the obvious, we need to look at the joint above and/or

below the problem as this can/will manifest itself somewhere along the chain as

a compensatory issue.

COMMENT: Agreed. It’s funny that shin splints can come from sub-talar joint,

tight calves, under-active dorsi flexors, and/or the hip, BUT people focus on

the calves instead of taking your approach.

-----

First rule: No running shoes.

COMMENT: I’d personally go barefoot, but can’t do to a structural short

leg/unleveled sacrum and thus, need my lift.

DAMIEN: Yes barefoot would be best in most situations. I wear flip flops as

much as posiible forces the feet to actually work. I train mostly in Chuck T's

or any other form of flat shoe. Conditioning work , I put on Nike frees or the

Puma version of the shoe. The sole is broken up into pods and allows the feet to

work more as they are intended to. I convert all that I work with to the same

shoes. We address insoles if needed.

-----

I usually go right to the feet and look to see if there is a

pronation/supination issue. This will cause ankle/ knee issues with respect to

tibial rotation. Pattern recruitment issues that you see when an individual

squats, typically weight medial side of foot (pronate excessively) knees move

toward mid-line and drive forward before hip flexion starts, quad./adductor

activity increases with little hamstring /glute activity. This type usually have

tight and weak hamstrings from dealling with an inordinate amount of quad

activity in daily lives and poor glute recruitment. These types typically have

less of a lordosis in lumbar region due to superior posterior rotation of hips

again from the hamstring/glute issue. (This of course can now present a lower

back issue for some.) . Driving the knees forward and tucking the hip moves the

COM forward and now the spine will round to try to maintain a sense of balance

as the body's upper mass has now moved

behind the COM. While simultaneously the ball of foot area has sensed an

increase in pressure due to knees driving first, overpronation and spine

rounding. The automatic response is to fire the gastroc/soleus as a means to

maintain balance and resist the forward pressure This inhibits ankle

dorsiflexion, the individual to rises up on the toes and appears to have poor

ankle flexibility.

Is this the type of squat mechanics that you see in most individuals?

COMMENT: Yes. Most people have a knee that crosses midline (foot/ankle); shift

to one side (hips) and can’t maintain an abdominal brace (core). Occasionally,

I’ve seen knees go outward, but it’s usually when someone has a really rounded

lower back (hip externally rotate with posterior pelvic tilt OR the person is in

real pain). One thing I learned from the folks at NASM is to out the heel on a

block/weight to see if the dysfunction is more from below or above. One

interesting point is that the muscle imbalances you present can come from a

“weak” core and then take on a life of their own; it’s a true case of what came

first the chicken or the egg.

DAMIEN: Yes the heel on a block or weight is a good way to verify from above or

below. I would agree with you regarding the " weak " core. The scope of what is

considered the core is at question too. I hear many talking about " core " in

reference to the abdominal group when it has a much greater scope than that.

-----

I start this type with activities that increase glute awareness; Donkey kicks,

fire hydrants bird dogs, toy soldiers, x-band walks, BW glute bridging with

abduction, then glute bridging on a jump/stretch platform with bands as

resistance, then togu ball heel press/glute bride and then to a SHELC . They

also are doing prisoner squats facing a wall during all sessions to learn to

squat with better sequencing. This is BW for repetitions repetitions,

repetitions, to learn a new recruitment pattern.

COMMENT: The good stuff! I understand/agree that retraining the glutes is

imperative to retrain the lumbo-peliv-hip complex rhythm. Is it possible to

elaborate on some of the exercises? Here’s my understanding: Donkey kick is

Bird-Dogs without arm action, fire hydrants are self explanatory and I also do

them from a dead bug position to retrain the adductors to lengthen under

eccentric resistance, glute bridging is a stalwart, togu ball and SHELC lost me

a bit and can you clarify prisoner squats so I don’t misinterpret them? IMO

adding add joint tracking at the feet and knees during the movements will also

help the recruitment patters; for example, not letting the foot peel off the

ground and/or invert during a squat to emphasize talar glide.

DAMIEN:

Donkey kick- yes on the bird dog action with a fully flexed knee maintained.

Good move with the dead bugs.

TOGU Ball is just a swiss ball, one of the original manufacturers. I use it to

add range of motion and instability to the glute bridge/heel press on

progressively bigger balls.

SHELC- Supine Hip Extension Leg Curl.- Lie on the floor heels on top of ball ,

legs straight.. Extend hip joint to a bridge/plank position, body and legs form

a straight line. BW supported on heels on top of ball and upper back on

floor/mat. You will now do a leg curl while trying to maintain hip extension,

curl the ball in as far as possible. Try to keep the feet together as they will

want to rotate outward and of course fight the insufficiency at the hip and try

to maintain the extended position.

Prisoner squats- Set up in a squat position stance slightly wider than

shoulders, feet angle out ward approximately 15 degrees. Place the hands on the

back of the head with fingers interlocked and pull the arms back to retract the

scapula. This sets you in a nice tall position rib cage elevated spine straight.

Start to squat while maintaining this position. The person will have trouble

with this motion if they have poor squat mechanics. If you use this same

technique while standing with toes touching a wall it will force individual to

learn proper mechanics as they will hit wall with their knees,

nose/chin/forehead and fall backward long before they reach even a parallel

squat position. The person slowly progressed and coached to try to squat deeper

will develop the pattern and flexibility to to squat properly and deep without

too much fuss. I usually have a box behind them to inhibit the fear of falling

on their gluteus maximus.

-----

Sorry for the delay in response.

Damien Chiappini

Pittsburgh,PA.

===============================

RE: Squats and how to fix it?

I would agree that the knee pretty much is along for the ride. I also tend

to feel that other than the obvious, we need to look at the joint above

and/or below the problem as this can/will manifest itself somewhere along

the chain as a compensatory issue.

I try to keep things simple as I think we sometimes tend to over think

issues and miss simple solutions.

COMMENT: I think you're dead-on and keeping it simple is the key; it reminds

me of the Ida Rolf quote about Structural Integration, " be comfortable in

not knowing " or in other words you eventually reach a level of understanding

that allows you to " simply " listen to the wisdom of the body. IMO many

people want/need something tangible to ALWAYS be the same and thus, provide

a false sense of security in dealing with the body.

-----

I would agree that the knee pretty much is along for the ride. I also tend

to feel that other than the obvious, we need to look at the joint above

and/or below the problem as this can/will manifest itself somewhere along

the chain as a compensatory issue.

COMMENT: Agreed. It's funny that shin splints can come from sub-talar joint,

tight calves, under-active dorsi flexors, and/or the hip, BUT people focus

on the calves instead of taking your approach.

-----

First rule: No running shoes.

COMMENT: I'd personally go barefoot, but can't do to a structural short

leg/unleveled sacrum and thus, need my lift.

-----

I usually go right to the feet and look to see if there is a

pronation/supinatio n issue. This will cause ankle/ knee issues with respect

to tibial rotation. Pattern recruitment issues that you see when an

individual squats, typically weight medial side of foot (pronate

excessively) knees move toward mid-line and drive forward before hip flexion

starts, quad./adductor activity increases with little hamstring /glute

activity. This type usually have tight and weak hamstrings from dealling

with an inordinate amount of quad activity in daily lives and poor glute

recruitment. These types typically have less of a lordosis in lumbar region

due to superior posterior rotation of hips again from the hamstring/glute

issue. (This of course can now present a lower back issue for some.) .

Driving the knees forward and tucking the hip moves the COM forward and now

the spine will round to try to maintain a sense of balance as the body's

upper mass has now moved

behind the COM. While simultaneously the ball of foot area has sensed an

increase in pressure due to knees driving first, overpronation and spine

rounding. The automatic response is to fire the gastroc/soleus as a means to

maintain balance and resist the forward pressure This inhibits ankle

dorsiflexion, the individual to rises up on the toes and appears to have

poor ankle flexibility.

Is this the type of squat mechanics that you see in most individuals?

COMMENT: Yes. Most people have a knee that crosses midline (foot/ankle) ;

shift to one side (hips) and can't maintain an abdominal brace (core).

Occasionally, I've seen knees go outward, but it's usually when someone has

a really rounded lower back (hip externally rotate with posterior pelvic

tilt OR the person is in real pain). One thing I learned from the folks at

NASM is to out the heel on a block/weight to see if the dysfunction is more

from below or above. One interesting point is that the muscle imbalances you

present can come from a " weak " core and then take on a life of their own;

it's a true case of what came first the chicken or the egg.

-----

I start this type with activities that increase glute awareness; Donkey

kicks, fire hydrants bird dogs, toy soldiers, x-band walks, BW glute

bridging with abduction, then glute bridging on a jump/stretch platform with

bands as resistance, then togu ball heel press/glute bride and then to a

SHELC . They also are doing prisoner squats facing a wall during all

sessions to learn to squat with better sequencing. This is BW for

repetitions repetitions, repetitions, to learn a new recruitment pattern.

COMMENT: The good stuff! I understand/agree that retraining the glutes is

imperative to retrain the lumbo-peliv- hip complex rhythm. Is it possible to

elaborate on some of the exercises? Here's my understanding: Donkey kick is

Bird-Dogs without arm action, fire hydrants are self explanatory and I also

do them from a dead bug position to retrain the adductors to lengthen under

eccentric resistance, glute bridging is a stalwart, togu ball and SHELC lost

me a bit and can you clarify prisoner squats so I don't misinterpret them?

IMO adding add joint tracking at the feet and knees during the movements

will also help the recruitment patters; for example, not letting the foot

peel off the ground and/or invert during a squat to emphasize talar glide.

-----

Thanks!

Todd Langer, MSc, Rolfer

Boulder, CO

www.balance2posture .com <http://www.balance2 posture.com/>

============ ========= ======

[Guest guest]

Todd,

Sorry for the delay.

Yes it does get hamstrings active. They do go hand in hand with the glutes for

hip extension. I find that if you can get the individual to focus on squeezing

the glutes when performing it and trying to maintain that bridge position that

they start to actually " feel " their glutes getting active.

SHELC-yes soles are on the ball

A great deal of people have poor flexibility in dorsi-flexion. One of reasons

most people turn their feet out to squat as it helps " unlock " the ankle and

allows them to over pronate to get deeper. Knee issues again.

Do they need insoles?

I like to get people to sit with feet elevated and practice dorsi-flexion

without external load. I think this activity helps to build some flexibility.

Most people build cramps surprisingly quick as they lack strength in the

anterior portion of leg compared to the posterior.

The foot/ ankle complex GPP flexibility is tough. I , as we have discussed

before, am not an advocate of destabilizing the ankle on wobble boards or sit

discs. They have their place in early stages of rehab under very controlled

conditions. I like to get individuals doing farmers walks, waiter walks,

various types of lunges especially with offset loading (when applicable) while

in bare feet or sox. I also address specific issues with the ankle/foot complex

with jump stretch bands as a means of resistance at various angles and a form of

very mild traction.

I also think that for the individual capable of performing, various running cone

drills are an excellent way to build ankle preparedness as it stresses the

individual from various lines of force in a functional manner.

I realize the importance of ankle mobility, especially in dorsi-flexion and

plantar-flexion. The lateral/ medial aspect I would get concerned with trying to

get too much flexibility and then creating a destabilization from this.

The hip mobility I will defer to an excellent DVD " Magnificent Mobility by

Cressey and Mike on " They use a serious of drills as a warmup and

mobility enhancer. I use it with my clients and they enjoy doing the drills. You

are probably already familiar with most of the movements.

I also program a great deal of 1 leg movements with big ranges of motion during

actual training. This aids in getting the hips mobile and locates deficiencies /

weakness at the hips.

Your input Todd.

Damien Chiappini

Pittsburgh, PA.

==========================

Re: Squats and how to fix it?

I would agree that the knee pretty much is along for the ride. I also tend

to feel that other than the obvious, we need to look at the joint above

and/or below the problem as this can/will manifest itself somewhere along

the chain as a compensatory issue.

I try to keep things simple as I think we sometimes tend to over think

issues and miss simple solutions.

COMMENT: I think you're dead-on and keeping it simple is the key; it reminds

me of the Ida Rolf quote about Structural Integration, " be comfortable in

not knowing " or in other words you eventually reach a level of understanding

that allows you to " simply " listen to the wisdom of the body. IMO many

people want/need something tangible to ALWAYS be the same and thus, provide

a false sense of security in dealing with the body.

DAMIEN: You hit the nail on the head with this one.

" IMO many people want/need something tangible to ALWAYS be the same

and thus, provide a false sense of security in dealing with the body. "

----

I would agree that the knee pretty much is along for the ride. I also tend

to feel that other than the obvious, we need to look at the joint above

and/or below the problem as this can/will manifest itself somewhere along

the chain as a compensatory issue.

COMMENT: Agreed. It's funny that shin splints can come from sub-talar joint,

tight calves, under-active dorsi flexors, and/or the hip, BUT people focus

on the calves instead of taking your approach.

-----

First rule: No running shoes.

COMMENT: I'd personally go barefoot, but can't do to a structural short

leg/unleveled sacrum and thus, need my lift.

DAMIEN: Yes barefoot would be best in most situations. I wear flip flops as

much as posiible forces the feet to actually work. I train mostly in Chuck

T's or any other form of flat shoe. Conditioning work , I put on Nike frees

or the Puma version of the shoe. The sole is broken up into pods and allows

the feet to work more as they are intended to. I convert all that I work

with to the same shoes. We address insoles if needed.

-----

I usually go right to the feet and look to see if there is a

pronation/supinatio n issue. This will cause ankle/ knee issues with respect

to tibial rotation. Pattern recruitment issues that you see when an

individual squats, typically weight medial side of foot (pronate

excessively) knees move toward mid-line and drive forward before hip flexion

starts, quad./adductor activity increases with little hamstring /glute

activity. This type usually have tight and weak hamstrings from dealling

with an inordinate amount of quad activity in daily lives and poor glute

recruitment. These types typically have less of a lordosis in lumbar region

due to superior posterior rotation of hips again from the hamstring/glute

issue. (This of course can now present a lower back issue for some.) .

Driving the knees forward and tucking the hip moves the COM forward and now

the spine will round to try to maintain a sense of balance as the body's

upper mass has now moved

behind the COM. While simultaneously the ball of foot area has sensed an

increase in pressure due to knees driving first, overpronation and spine

rounding. The automatic response is to fire the gastroc/soleus as a means to

maintain balance and resist the forward pressure This inhibits ankle

dorsiflexion, the individual to rises up on the toes and appears to have

poor ankle flexibility.

Is this the type of squat mechanics that you see in most individuals?

COMMENT: Yes. Most people have a knee that crosses midline (foot/ankle) ;

shift to one side (hips) and can't maintain an abdominal brace (core).

Occasionally, I've seen knees go outward, but it's usually when someone has

a really rounded lower back (hip externally rotate with posterior pelvic

tilt OR the person is in real pain). One thing I learned from the folks at

NASM is to out the heel on a block/weight to see if the dysfunction is more

from below or above. One interesting point is that the muscle imbalances you

present can come from a " weak " core and then take on a life of their own;

it's a true case of what came first the chicken or the egg.

DAMIEN: Yes the heel on a block or weight is a good way to verify from above

or below. I would agree with you regarding the " weak " core. The scope of

what is considered the core is at question too. I hear many talking about

" core " in reference to the abdominal group when it has a much greater scope

than that.

-----

I start this type with activities that increase glute awareness; Donkey

kicks, fire hydrants bird dogs, toy soldiers, x-band walks, BW glute

bridging with abduction, then glute bridging on a jump/stretch platform with

bands as resistance, then togu ball heel press/glute bride and then to a

SHELC . They also are doing prisoner squats facing a wall during all

sessions to learn to squat with better sequencing. This is BW for

repetitions repetitions, repetitions, to learn a new recruitment pattern.

COMMENT: The good stuff! I understand/agree that retraining the glutes is

imperative to retrain the lumbo-peliv- hip complex rhythm. Is it possible to

elaborate on some of the exercises? Here's my understanding: Donkey kick is

Bird-Dogs without arm action, fire hydrants are self explanatory and I also

do them from a dead bug position to retrain the adductors to lengthen under

eccentric resistance, glute bridging is a stalwart, togu ball and SHELC lost

me a bit and can you clarify prisoner squats so I don't misinterpret them?

IMO adding add joint tracking at the feet and knees during the movements

will also help the recruitment patters; for example, not letting the foot

peel off the ground and/or invert during a squat to emphasize talar glide.

DAMIEN:

Donkey kick- yes on the bird dog action with a fully flexed knee maintained.

Good move with the dead bugs.

TOGU Ball is just a swiss ball, one of the original manufacturers. I use it

to add range of motion and instability to the glute bridge/heel press on

progressively bigger balls.

SHELC- Supine Hip Extension Leg Curl.- Lie on the floor heels on top of ball

, legs straight.. Extend hip joint to a bridge/plank position, body and legs

form a straight line. BW supported on heels on top of ball and upper back on

floor/mat. You will now do a leg curl while trying to maintain hip

extension, curl the ball in as far as possible. Try to keep the feet

together as they will want to rotate outward and of course fight the

insufficiency at the hip and try to maintain the extended position.

Prisoner squats- Set up in a squat position stance slightly wider than

shoulders, feet angle out ward approximately 15 degrees. Place the hands on

the back of the head with fingers interlocked and pull the arms back to

retract the scapula. This sets you in a nice tall position rib cage elevated

spine straight. Start to squat while maintaining this position. The person

will have trouble with this motion if they have poor squat mechanics. If you

use this same technique while standing with toes touching a wall it will

force individual to learn proper mechanics as they will hit wall with their

knees, nose/chin/forehead and fall backward long before they reach even a

parallel squat position. The person slowly progressed and coached to try to

squat deeper will develop the pattern and flexibility to to squat properly

and deep without too much fuss. I usually have a box behind them to inhibit

the fear of falling on their gluteus maximus.

-----

[Guest guest]

Todd, see comments below:

Damien,

Yeah, it’s a matter of degrees; for instance, I like bridges, because it’s

possible to really emphasize the glutes, but not one leg bridges due to high

hamstring activation. I realize it’s a progression, but usually move to standing

to get onto one leg….

DAMIEN COMMENT: The one leg bridge I have found is very effective for

individuals who suffer from low back issues. It helps to get the " core " to

maintain a level of stability in the lumbar region as they try to maintain a

level pelvic area when bridging one legged. This seems to be effective for most

back issues and mininal risk.

A lack of lower leg flexibility is probably one of the most overlooked issues;

however, it can create instability throughout the entire kinetic chain. One

interesting note is that NASM, and other “progressive’ organizations, breaks up

each segment of the kinetic chain during their Corrective Exercise Routine with

muscle test/goniometer readings of the lower leg.

DAMIEN COMMENT: I would agree. I think you see a great deal of knee injuries due

to ankle taping in sports. Fixating the ankle causes compensation at other

joints along the kinetic chain. Ankle needs mobility, knee needs stability, hip

needs mobility, low back needs stability. When you alter this you see problems.

Please, follow this longwinded rant and provide your insights: it’s widely

accepted that tibialis anterior/posterior are under-active/weak with pronated

feet; however, tib A is also a main dorsiflexor. So here’s the dilemma;

basically, pronation is actually a combo of foot adduction, sub-talar inversion,

and ankle dorsiflexion. So how in the heck is the tib A under-active/weak during

over pronation when it’s part of the actual process (e.g. dorsiflexion)!?! It

seems to me that people are trying to outsmart Mother Nature and not taking into

account that muscle action is context specific and performing a movement 100

times wi

ll have 100 slightly different recruitment patterns; so, the ONLY way to

re-establish neuromuscular connectivity is via functional movements. I’d love

your thoughts…please, feel free to go where ever you want with it….

DAMIEN COMMENT: The dorsiflexion is passive in your example. If you look at the

action that you describe, it is a gravitational act more than a muscular act,

hence the weakness. If we strip all the muscle off of the lower leg and just

leave the skeletal portion and ligament portions intact place a vertical load at

the tibial plateau you would see that the arch flatens and the foot appears to

adduct (from gravity not muscle activity), the sub-talar inversion also just the

mechanics as you transfer the load down through the skeletal sytem and the shape

of the articulating surfaces at the ankle complex (again gravity not muscle

action) and of course the appearance of dorsiflexion as a result of the action

of the joint complex at the ankle, the articulating surfaces and loss of the

arch of the foot. The ankle is also offset to the medial aspect in relation to

the foot so the act that you described is a result from muscle weakness not

being able to overcome

the gravitational loads placed upon it.

LOL – leave my balance boards alone! Seriously, it depends on the method

used. I agree that wobble and air filled discs aren’t going to retrain the lower

legs; however, a balance board with a fixed center of axis that 1) matches the

passive connective tissue restraints of the body and 2) decreases your standing

base of support will allow for your feed-forward nervous system to self-correct

balance and also encourage good posture to be able to stand on such boards. I

won’t mention the name of said boards to avoid self-promotion, but trust me they

work. I actually had a well-known PT playing with EMG and core retraining with

my boards (they showed increase in before/after core stabilization reaction

time) and she was more impressed with the improvement in “the first line of

defense” and saw immediate results in her patient’s ankle ROM. I haven’t

followed thru with official studies, because it’s EXPENSIVE and people don’t

really care

anyhow….

DAMIEN COMMENT: I could not help myself, it was just too easy to do :-)> . I

agree with you on the wobble part when it matches the passive connective tissue

restraints on the body, this is in individual basis though. You can't just throw

out a general degree of angle from center axis and say it works for everybody.

The correction of posture will be only for the current moment on the board and

for whatever problems are above the unstable axis. The individual will find the

balance on the board with whatever their current posture condition is. This is

very much the way the spine responds over time to balance issues. Less lumbar

lordosis typically leads to more thoracic kyphosis. People with scoliosis

somtimes appear to have a spine that resembles a crawling snake as it drifts lef

and right to try to find a balanced posture. Where along the length of the foot

in relationship to the centerline of the medial malleolus do place the center of

the axis (of

the your wobble board) and where laterally to medially do you place the

centerline of the axis in relationship to the centerline of the lateral to

medial malleolus.

I LOVE one leg movements and always incorporate arm movements as well to

stimulate the CNS and train my “core” as a rigid transfer case; squats from

bench, step-ups, multi-planar lunges, etc. In fact, my only 2 legged squats are

currently in conjuction with standing rows – squat-stand-row-squat…..

DAMIEN COMMENT: Yes they are more in the way we move as opposed to squared up. I

usually program a unilateral movement after a bilateral movement for leg work.

Some cases just unilateral only, always with the greatest range of motion that

is currently safe for individual.

The offset you stated having with your hip/leg would make unilaterals much more

effective for you.

Damien Chiappini

Pittsburgh, PA.