Re: Leg Curls

[Guest guest]

In my opinion, I think leg curls are okay to use, especially if during

hip extension movements, the glutes take all the work. As long as the

hamstrings are lagging behind in physical development, using leg curls (or other

isolation movements for the hamstrings) is fine.

Baggett gave me this analogy (or something similar to it): If

the triceps in the bench press is holding you back, you should spend more time

on assistance exercises that develop the triceps.

Generally, since free weights could transfer strength to athletic

activities more than machines due to the principle of specificity, they should

be used the most. However, free weights (and other " specific, functional

training " ) usually doesn't develop the strength of the hamstrings that well. In

effect, the hamstrings lag behind in development. I think this is the only time

I will permit the use of machines in training.

Many others say that leg curls do not develop functional strength for sports..

I do not care if they think it doesn't, as long as the hamstrings look like

pancakes I think as long as you develop the sarcomeric fibers of your

hamstrings, and train your body to incorporate those new adaptations into whole

body movements (e.g. deadlifts/sprints/etc.), you will be fine.

Edderic Ugaddan

Hillside, NJ

===============================

" Bruce J. Nadler M.D. " wrote:

What is the feeling of the group with regard to the use of leg curls

in training? Unless one is a trapeze artist, there is no natural

motion of which I can think that loads the ham strings during their

full range of motion. Is this exercise purely for aesthetic reasons

or does it impart a functional usefulness as well?

======================================

[Guest guest]

Running uses the hamstrings as does cycling if you are doing a complete

motion, pulling, as well as pushing on the pedals. I am sure there are many

sports for which stronger hamstrings would be beneficial.

Davy

Laconia, NH

on 6/28/07 5:09 PM, Bruce J. Nadler M.D. at niptuckfitness@... wrote:

What is the feeling of the group with regard to the use of leg curls

in training? Unless one is a trapeze artist, there is no natural

motion of which I can think that loads the ham strings during their

full range of motion. Is this exercise purely for aesthetic reasons

or does it impart a functional usefulness as well?

============================

[Guest guest]

>

> What is the feeling of the group with regard to the use of leg curls

> in training? Unless one is a trapeze artist, there is no natural

> motion of which I can think that loads the ham strings during their

> full range of motion. Is this exercise purely for aesthetic reasons

> or does it impart a functional usefulness as well?

>

*****

I wrote the below sometime ago - criticisms greatly appreciated:

" " It would be prudent to militate against the use of the leg curl

exercise, as the exercise is not compatible to either the structure

or function of the hamstring muscle group (1). The hamstring muscle

group includes the semitendinosus, the semimembranosus and the biceps

femoris; the functions of which are as knee flexor and hip extensor.

It has been suggested that the vulnerability of injury to the

hamstring muscle group is due to their anatomical arrangement (2).

These muscles have a pennate-elastic structure and are biarticular

meaning that a change in the length is brought about by movement in

two joints (1). Flexion of the knee and the hip occurs

simultaneously during most daily activities (2).

With regard to the " strength " of the hamstring muscle group Mann (3)

suggested the muscle group " strength " should be as great as possible

as it is the most critically stressed muscle group in the lower

extremity in both running and jumping. It is also noted by other

researchers that there is a greater contribution from the hip

extensors during faster running speeds (4, 5). Subsequently, it could

be suggested that athletes should incorporate hip extensor exercises

for example, Olympic Lifting, prone reverse hypers, glute-ham-gastroc

raises.

1. Klomp, R. and F. Bosch. Running (Versioning): Biomechanics and

Exercise Physiology in Practice. Churchill Livingstone. 2004. p. 46.

2. sen, J., and P. Holmich. Evidence based prevention of

hamstring injuries in sport. Br. J. Sports Med. 39:(6) 319-23. 2005.

3. Mann. R. Coaches Roundtable: Speed development. Natl. Strength

Cond. Assoc. J. 5:(6) 12–20. 1984.

4. Worrell, T.E., and D.H. Perrin. Hamstring muscle injury: The

influence of strength, flexibility warm-up, and fatigue. J. Orthop.

Sports Phys. Ther. 16: 12-18. 1992.

5. Young, W., D. Benton, G. Duthie., and J. Pryor. Resistance

Training for Short Sprints and Maximum-speed Sprints. Strength and

Cond. J. 23:(2) 7–13. 2001.

Carruthers

Wakefield, UK

[Guest guest]

Good point. I'm curious why this type of machine became popular in the first

place. Hip extension machines would make more sense from an athletic as well as

aesthetic perspective. Why are hip extension machines fairly unpopular, but leg

curl machines are?

Espy, MS, CSCS

Phoenix, AZ

=======================

" Bruce J. Nadler M.D. " wrote:

What is the feeling of the group with regard to the use of leg curls

in training? Unless one is a trapeze artist, there is no natural

motion of which I can think that loads the ham strings during their

full range of motion. Is this exercise purely for aesthetic reasons

or does it impart a functional usefulness as well?

==========================

[Guest guest]

ly the invention of such machines is just another way to try to " dumb

things " down for people. If you squat down and pick up objects or small

children in your home, you need the strength of your hamstrings. No need to get

on a trapeze and if you are doing trapeze in your home, no, I don't want to know

about it..

Hate to say it but most of it probably stems from a reluctance to get under a

bar and get their butts down. Full back squat below parallel will test your

legs on all grounds, and if you don't think so, try it. <grin>. Not feeling

enough ham? get your feet out wider lol. And get off the !

Actual lifting might even help your aesthetics. Want to help it further, try a

conventional deadlift. The 3:2 ratio my hams enjoy vs quads obviously came from

SOMEWHERE. I don't do leg curls lol.

Nothing a little squat DOMS can't cure....

The Phantom

aka Schaefer, CMT, CSCS, competing powerlifter

Denver, Colorado, USA

==============================

-------------- Original message --------------

Good point. I'm curious why this type of machine became popular in the first

place. Hip extension machines would make more sense from an athletic as well as

aesthetic perspective. Why are hip extension machines fairly unpopular, but leg

curl machines are?

Espy, MS, CSCS

Phoenix, AZ

=======================

" Bruce J. Nadler M.D. " wrote:

What is the feeling of the group with regard to the use of leg curls

in training? Unless one is a trapeze artist, there is no natural

motion of which I can think that loads the ham strings during their

full range of motion. Is this exercise purely for aesthetic reasons

or does it impart a functional usefulness as well?

==========================

[Guest guest]

Edderic Ugaddan wrote:

" " However, free weights (and other " specific, functional training " ) usually

doesn't develop the strength of the hamstrings that well. In effect, the

hamstrings lag behind in development. " "

*****

Can you please explain and provide supporting evidence for the above statement.

Thanks

Bill

West Chester, Pa

[Guest guest]

I am sure that one of the reasons that the leg curl machine is so popular is

that it has been around since the beginning. Universal and Nautilus both made

them an indespensible part of the gym. I have never yet walked into a gym and

there was a glute ham raise machine or a reverse hyperextension machine in place

of a leg curl machine. I typically only see competitive athletes using this

equipment. Although the glute ham raise and the reverse hyperextension machine

are far superior, most of the time I find that the only people who know what

they are are people who constantly educate themselves in the training of

athletes. I hate to say it but most people who go to the gym are like cattle,

they just do what they are told and go through the motions and never really

educate themselves as to what other training options are out there that are

better.

Todd Gaudreau

Williston, North Dakota

USA

==================================

Espy wrote:

Good point. I'm curious why this type of machine became popular in the

first place. Hip extension machines would make more sense from an athletic as

well as aesthetic perspective. Why are hip extension machines fairly unpopular,

but leg curl machines are?

Espy, MS, CSCS

Phoenix, AZ

=======================

" Bruce J. Nadler M.D. " wrote:

What is the feeling of the group with regard to the use of leg curls

in training? Unless one is a trapeze artist, there is no natural

motion of which I can think that loads the ham strings during their

full range of motion. Is this exercise purely for aesthetic reasons

or does it impart a functional usefulness as well?

==========================

[Guest guest]

Do leg curls have any place in rehabilitation following injury?

Bruce J. Nadler M.D.

Los Angeles, CA

=====================================

Espy wrote:

Good point. I'm curious why this type of machine became popular in the first

place. Hip extension machines would make more sense from an athletic as well as

aesthetic perspective. Why are hip extension machines fairly unpopular, but leg

curl machines are?

Espy, MS, CSCS

Phoenix, AZ

=======================

" Bruce J. Nadler M.D. " wrote:

What is the feeling of the group with regard to the use of leg curls

in training? Unless one is a trapeze artist, there is no natural

motion of which I can think that loads the ham strings during their

full range of motion. Is this exercise purely for aesthetic reasons

or does it impart a functional usefulness as well?

==========================

Bruce J. Nadler, M.D.

Nip Tuck Fitness LA

Certified Personal Trainer

American College of Sports Medicine

International Sports Sciences Assoc.

www.niptuckfitness.com

[Guest guest]

I can say from patients I've worked with recovering from post ACL

surgeries that they didn't fair well and that their rehab took

longer and also felt wasn't as complete.

It would make sense being that there is a tremendous shear force

loaded upon the ACL with the patient lying prone and the leg flexed

and 30 to 50 degrees with weighted resistance.

Why would anyone want additional shear forces on the ACL right after

surgically positioning and attaching it? There are several other

medthods of stretching the tissues without loading the ligament in

this fashion.

My professional opinion would be the hamstring curl is beneficial

with those who have good hamstring flexibility, and no prior knee

ligament issues, for asthetic purposes and obviously strengthening

as well, but I also have no clinincal data, as how this exercise

would relate to specific advantage in any one given sport or

physical endeavor.

J. Forbes

Director of Player Development

Athletic Spinal Fitness Institute

Ridgefield, WA

> =======================

> " Bruce J. Nadler M.D. " wrote:

> What is the feeling of the group with regard to the use

of leg curls

> in training? Unless one is a trapeze artist, there is no natural

> motion of which I can think that loads the ham strings during their

> full range of motion. Is this exercise purely for aesthetic reasons

> or does it impart a functional usefulness as well?

>

> ==========================

>

[Guest guest]

>

> Do leg curls have any place in rehabilitation following injury?

>

****

Prof. Per Tesch and Hans Berg developed the below device. The YO-YO technology

has been shown by research to be effective in reducing injuries and

strengthening the hamstring muscle group complex:

http://www.yoyotechnology.com/hot.html

http://www.yoyotechnology.com/videoclips_5.html

Askling et al., state:

" " The working principle of this device is based on setting a flywheel into

rotational motion via concentric muscle action and then decelerating the motion

via eccentric muscle action. By performing the eccentric action over a smaller

angular displacement and hence with a greater muscle torque than the concentric

on an eccentric overload is accomplished. " "

Additional information:

Hamstring injuries occur during the eccentric action, when the muscle

develops tension while lengthening (1, 2). Eccentric forces are

substantially greater during higher velocities of running (3).

Paradoxically the role of the muscle-complex as an absorber of energy

needs to be emphasised for the prevention and optimisation of

hamstring injuries. Indeed, specific eccentric action emphasis knee

flexion training may be effective in preventing hamstring injuries

(4, 5, 6, 7). The Nordic hamstring exercise (Figure 1) was utilized

in the Brockett et al. and Mjolsnes et al. studies and may be

effective in preventing injuries to the hamstring muscle group (5, 6,

7). It is noted that accentuation of the eccentric action is

considered to be an effective means of increasing flexibility and

developing strength concurrently (8, 9). The exercise was used in

the special preparation of European sprinters during the 1980's

(10). Key benefits of the exercise are that it requires no expensive

equipment and it can be done anywhere; the only prerequisite being

that the knees must be cushioned. It would be advisable to carefully

periodize the Nordic hamstring exercise into a program as eccentric

training tends to produce muscle soreness, referred to as 'delayed

onset muscle soreness,' to a significant degree predominantly in

beginner trainees or individuals unused to eccentric activity (11).

Adaptation will occur providing training continues and, consequently,

muscle soreness will diminish (12). It remains to be determined

whether specific eccentric action training at the hip joint would be

beneficial for the prevention and optimisation of hamstring injuries.

http://www.ostrc.no/en/News-archive/News-archive-2004/New-paper---

Effective-hamstrings-strength-training-program2/

http://www.ostrc.no/en/Project/056---Prevention-of-hamstrings-strains-

in-football-/Treningsprogram-Nordic-Hamstrings-/

1. Kujala, U.M., S. Orava, M. Jarvinen. Hamstring injuries. Current

trends in treatment and prevention. Sports Med. 23:(6) 397-404. 1997.

2. Stanton, P. and C. Purdam. (1989). Hamstring injuries in

sprinting - the role of eccentric exercise. J. Orthop. Sports Phys.

Ther. 10: 343-349.

3. Mero, A., and P.V. Komi. Force-, EMG-, and elasticity-velocity

relationships at submaximal, maximal, and supramaximal running speeds

in sprinters. Eur. J. Appl. Physiol. 55: 553–561. 1986.

4. Askling, C., J. Karlsson, A. Thorstensson. Hamstring injury

occurrence in elite soccer players after preseason strength training

with eccentric overload. Scand. J. Med. Sci. Sports. 13:(4) 244-50.

2003.

5. Brockett, C.L., D.L. , U. Proske. Human hamstring muscles

adapt to eccentric exercise by changing optimum length. Med. Sci.

Sports Exerc. 33:(5) 783-90. 2001.

6. Brockett, C.L., D.L. , U. Proske. Predicting hamstring

strain injury in elite athletes. Med. Sci. Sports Exerc. 36:(3) 379-

87. 2004.

7. Mjolsnes, R., A. Arnason, T. Osthagen, T. Raastad, R.A. Bahr. 10-

week randomized trial comparing eccentric vs. concentric hamstring

strength training in well-trained soccer players. Scand. J. Med. Sci.

Sports. 14:(5) 311-7. 2004.

8. , R.T., and W.D. Bandy. The effect of eccentric training for

increasing hamstring flexibility of high school males. J. Athl.

Train. 39:354–358. 2004.

9. Siff, M.C. Superstretch - The Science behind the Art. School of

Mechanical Engineering, University of Witwatersrand, WITS 2050, South

Africa. pp. 22-25. 1994.

10. Lüchtenbeg, D. EUROPEAN PERSPECTIVE: Specific strength training

for running—Part II. Natl. Strength Cond. Assoc. J. 11:(5) 43–51.

1989.

11. Friden, J., M. Sjøstrøm., and B. Ekblom. Adaptive response in

human skeletal muscle subjected to prolonged eccentric training. Int.

J. Sports Med. 4(3):177-83. 1983.

12. Friden, J., M. Sjøstrøm., and B. Ekblom. Myofibrillar damage

following intense eccentric exercise in man. Int. J. Sports Med.

4:170-176. 1983.

Hope the latter adds to the discussion

Carruthers

Wakefield, UK

[Guest guest]

In view of these responses, would isolated training of the hamstrings, as

provided by the leg curl machines, create a physiologic muscle imbalance and be

counter-productive for athletic activity? Would it create a condition making

the individual more prone to injuries?

I've been trying to track down the source to a ratio I once read of quadriceps

to hamstring strength. This was determined by comparing leg extension to leg

curl results.

Bruce J. Nadler M.D.

Los Angeles, CA

=========================

Todd Langer wrote: Bruce,

It would depend on the way you injured the muscle, no? It seems most hammy's

are hurt at the initiating of leg swing and/or right during landing

(eccentric/isometric); so, it's unlikely to happen during a concentric

contraction. As I alluded to earlier a standing machine allows for more

realistic usage of the hammys in the eccentric phase and could probably be

utilized in rehab. Again, IMO it's not the ideal exercise, but it can have

benefits....

Todd Langer, MSc, CES/Rolfer

Boulder, CO

===========================

Re: Leg Curls

Do leg curls have any place in rehabilitation following injury?

Bruce J. Nadler M.D.

Los Angeles, CA

=====================================

Espy <threectraining@... <mailto:threectraining%40yahoo.com> >

wrote: Good point. I'm curious why this type of machine became popular in

the first place. Hip extension machines would make more sense from an

athletic as well as aesthetic perspective. Why are hip extension machines

fairly unpopular, but leg curl machines are?

Espy, MS, CSCS

Phoenix, AZ

=======================

" Bruce J. Nadler M.D. " <niptuckfitness@...

<mailto:niptuckfitness%40yahoo.com> > wrote:

What is the feeling of the group with regard to the use of leg curls

in training? Unless one is a trapeze artist, there is no natural

motion of which I can think that loads the ham strings during their

full range of motion. Is this exercise purely for aesthetic reasons

or does it impart a functional usefulness as well?

==========================

[Guest guest]

>

> In view of these responses, would isolated training of the

hamstrings, as provided by the leg curl machines, create a

physiologic muscle imbalance and be counter-productive for athletic

activity? Would it create a condition making the individual more

prone to injuries?

> I've been trying to track down the source to a ratio I once read of

quadriceps to hamstring strength. This was determined by comparing

leg extension to leg curl results.

>

*****

Do read the recent " Push and Pull " thread as members of the list discussed the

above extensively. Do read:

Agonist-antagonist ratios change with joint angle, velocity of movement, pattern

of joint action, with multi-articular action. Ratios are influenced by the

demands of the sport. According to s and Reid a 0.60 to 0.70 muscle

strength ratio is an inappropriate hamstrings-to-quadriceps balance even when

torque

outputs are correct for the effect of gravity. Bennell et al. and

Dauty et al. also found that isokinetic strength testing does not

predict hamstring injury in athletes. Monitoring the muscles EMGrms

activity during " functional " tests such as the vertical jump may be

used to facilitate diagnoses and direct treatment strategies of

hamstring injuries.

Charlie Francis also wrote (see CFTS for more info):

" " I don't like the sound of your ham/quad ratio test. It sounds like

you've been assessed and rehabbed on a Cybex or Orthatron machine. In

all my years of experience, I've never run across a happy result with

this kind of equipment.

First of all, the basic premise that you can assess ham/quad ratios,

as they apply to sprinting in this way, is bullshit. Since the rate

of movement around the knee during ground contact (when real force is

needed) approaches zero, then the unloaded rate of movement can

approach 1500 degrees per second! Let's see a machine test that!

I was once called in by an NFL team to assess the injury to their

star receiver.

It turned out that he'd been on the Orthatron for a year and the

harder he

worked, the worse the hamstring got. Finally, he missed a full

season! Once

proper therapy was instituted, he came back for a dream season. I

should also

point out that hamstring injuries in football players cannot always

be avoided

because they often occur during intense deceleration, something

sprinters

shouldn't have to worry about. " "

References

Magalhaes J., J. Oliveira , A. Ascensao, J. Soares. Concentric

quadriceps and hamstrings isokinetic strength in volleyball and

soccer players. J Sports Med Phys Fitness. 44:(2) 119-25. 2004.

Bennell, K., H. Wajswelner, P. Lew, A. Schall-Riaucour, S. , D.

Plant, J. Cirone. Isokinetic strength testing does not predict

hamstring injury in Australian Rules footballers. Br J Sports Med. 32:

(4) 309-14. 1998.

Dauty M., M. Potiron-Josse, P. Rochcongar. Consequences and

prediction of hamstring muscle injury with concentric and eccentric

isokinetic parameters in elite soccer players. Ann Readapt Med Phys.

46:(9) 601-6. 2003.

Edgerton, V.R., S.L. Wolf, D.J. Levendowski, R.R. Roy. Theoretical

basis patterning EMG amplitudes to assess muscle dysfunction. Med Sci

Sports Exerc. 28:(6) 744–751. 1996.

Siff, M.C. Recommended Strength Ratios – Part 1. Fit. and Sports

Rev. Int. 29: (1) 12-14. 1994.

s, D., and J.G. Reid. Biomechanics of hamstring strains in

sprinting events. Canadian J. Sport Sci. 13(3): 88.

===================

Carruthers

Wakefield, UK

[Guest guest]

I have not heard or read of a potential for strength and muscle

growth imbalance, with quads and hams as compared to the classic

imbalance of chest and back. Is there such a thing?

Which reminds me I used to use [bend] my legs loads in the deadlift.

I now tend not to as much, as the more legs are involved the longer a

rep seems to take to complete. Not in range of motion for the back. It

just seems like a greater distance is traveled by the hips when using

legs a lot, which perhaps makes the lift longer and harder. Is this a

general rule or is it very much dependent on the individual?

Thanks

Greenland

Sussex UK

>

> ly the invention of such machines is just another way to try to

" dumb things " down for people. If you squat down and pick up objects

or small children in your home, you need the strength of your

hamstrings. No need to get on a trapeze and if you are doing trapeze

in your home, no, I don't want to know about it..

>

> Hate to say it but most of it probably stems from a reluctance to

get under a bar and get their butts down. Full back squat below

parallel will test your legs on all grounds, and if you don't think

so, try it. <grin>. Not feeling enough ham? get your feet out wider

lol. And get off the !

>

> Actual lifting might even help your aesthetics. Want to help it

further, try a conventional deadlift. The 3:2 ratio my hams enjoy vs

quads obviously came from SOMEWHERE. I don't do leg curls lol.

>

> Nothing a little squat DOMS can't cure....

>

> The Phantom

> aka Schaefer, CMT, CSCS, competing powerlifter

> Denver, Colorado, USA

>

> ==============================

>

> -------------- Original message --------------

>

> Good point. I'm curious why this type of machine became popular in

the first place. Hip extension machines would make more sense from an

athletic as well as aesthetic perspective. Why are hip extension

machines fairly unpopular, but leg curl machines are?

>

> Espy, MS, CSCS

> Phoenix, AZ

>

> =======================

> " Bruce J. Nadler M.D. " wrote:

> What is the feeling of the group with regard to the use of leg curls

> in training? Unless one is a trapeze artist, there is no natural

> motion of which I can think that loads the ham strings during their

> full range of motion. Is this exercise purely for aesthetic reasons

> or does it impart a functional usefulness as well?

>

> ==========================

>

[Guest guest]

Regarding leg curls: no studies here, just some experiential information and

some questions for your consideration.

I have used leg curl machines for strengthening generally and to train quick

twitch initiation by firing on cue (internal or externally supplied) to

accelerate a light medium to medium heavy weight (say a 8 to 12 rep max

selection)

with a " catch' and controlled return to near full extension; before firing

again on cue. This (compensated acceleration training and controlled eccentric

return) seems to be beneficial to both strength and rate of force production

for nearly all who have tried it. As a bonus, some report fewer leg cramps and

injury during recovery and activity, respectively. I am not making claims

to any proofs nor am I advocating this training for any specific application.

Just reporting limited experiential and anecdotal testimony for your

consideration and comment as you may wish.

Secondly, I have tried prone striders on the machines available to me since I

read of them in an NSCA publication and runners seem to " like them " . The

'standard' machine will not allow shorter people to so utilize the apparatus,

but taller individuals can get a good purchase with the leading foot and achieve

solid ground force input through that foot during execution of the curl with

the other leg. It certainly 'feels' different than the totally 'open' chain

variety with transfer (?) coming though the lumbar-pelvic connection. With

effort, the upper leg can also be raised during this exercise, as well, thereby

executing a partial range hip extension.

Any comments concerning these variations would be most welcome, especially as

to modality and specificity to goals of transfer to acl protection (reference

general strengthening and quick twitch training for the female athlete), and

application to running " kick " or sprinting.

Thanks in advance for thoughtful critique,

Boardman

Chicago

[Guest guest]

Frans Bosch from the Netherlands is here in Chicago at Loyola University for

the USATF Level III Sprint Summit. He advocates training the hamstrings in

isometric conditions, and sees no value in a tradtiional hamstring curl.

Ken Jakalski

Lisle High School

Lisle, IL

[Guest guest]

Hi Henk!

Thanks for your insights! From your experience, how widespread is the use

of the BK approach to training and technique in the Netherlands? Frans is

doing five sessions over three days here in Illinois.

Ken Jakalski

Lisle HS

Lisle, Illinois

[Guest guest]

After a grade 3 hamstring tear quite a few years ago I try to take

care of my hamstrings, particularly as I gear up for some masters

sprinting.

As and others have pointed out, current knowledge suggests that

the hamstring in runners is most susceptible at the 'catch point' at

the end of the swing phase where the hamstring pulls knee extension

up ready for the stance phase.

One exercise I do is 'eccentric catches' with the standing leg curl

machine. This is probably similar to what Boardman has described

below. For a set of 10-12 raise the weight, pause, then let it drop

suddenly, catching it near the bottom of extension and return under

control to starting point and repeat. This is an attempt to simulate

the swing phase to some extent while developing addtional strength. I

really don't know if this is useful, so like I welcome comments.

I also do deads, RDLs, squats and good mornings to try to strengthen

and stretch hamstrings.

As far as I can tell, Nordics are a floor glute-ham raise, which I

find difficult but persist. You can do them alone by hooking feet

under a barbell or something similar - good demo here.

http://www.kvusa.com/wl/floorghr.htm

Also, if you don't have a glute-ham bench a lat pulldown station or

similar can be used -- calf raise should work. Face away from

machine, kneel on seat and hook ankles under adjusted knee pads, then

drop onto a strategically placed bench or fitness ball if you need to.

Gympie, Australia

>

> Regarding leg curls: no studies here, just some experiential

information and

> some questions for your consideration.

>

> I have used leg curl machines for strengthening generally and to

train quick

> twitch initiation by firing on cue (internal or externally

supplied) to

> accelerate a light medium to medium heavy weight (say a 8 to 12 rep

max selection)

> with a " catch' and controlled return to near full extension; before

firing

> again on cue. This (compensated acceleration training and

controlled eccentric

> return) seems to be beneficial to both strength and rate of force

production

> for nearly all who have tried it. As a bonus, some report fewer

leg cramps and

> injury during recovery and activity, respectively. I am not

making claims

> to any proofs nor am I advocating this training for any specific

application.

> Just reporting limited experiential and anecdotal testimony for

your

> consideration and comment as you may wish.

>

> Secondly, I have tried prone striders on the machines available to

me since I

> read of them in an NSCA publication and runners seem to " like

them " . The

> 'standard' machine will not allow shorter people to so utilize the

apparatus,

> but taller individuals can get a good purchase with the leading

foot and achieve

> solid ground force input through that foot during execution of the

curl with

> the other leg. It certainly 'feels' different than the

totally 'open' chain

> variety with transfer (?) coming though the lumbar-pelvic

connection. With

> effort, the upper leg can also be raised during this exercise, as

well, thereby

> executing a partial range hip extension.

>

> Any comments concerning these variations would be most welcome,

especially as

> to modality and specificity to goals of transfer to acl protection

(reference

> general strengthening and quick twitch training for the female

athlete), and

> application to running " kick " or sprinting.

>

> Thanks in advance for thoughtful critique,

> Boardman

> Chicago

>

[Guest guest]

Good to see that a Dutch coach that has impact in the US and good for him.

The experience in Holland with the " new " concept " can be described very

briefly: trial-and-error.

His fastest sprinter ran 10.40 and was continuously injured, (no miracle

if you look at the exercises) I am curious how he can teach US sprint

coaches who to do things right, but maybe you got more talents to waste

that we have.

It's OK to learn from mistakes, but better to learn from the mistakes of

others, since my athletes are too precious to get wasted by somebody

else's brainstorms. The concept is great, just too bad it has to be

executed by " fragile " human beings.

Henk Kraaijenhof

Amstelveen

Holland

Hi Henk!

>

> Thanks for your insights! From your experience, how widespread is the

> use

> of the BK approach to training and technique in the Netherlands? Frans

> is

> doing five sessions over three days here in Illinois.

>

> Ken Jakalski

> Lisle HS

> Lisle, Illinois

>

>

[Guest guest]

Anything that improves the strength of a muscle improves it's functionality.

It is a myth that an exercise movement must mimic a sport or vocational

movement to benefit it or that an exercise is somehow not " functional " if it

doesn't do so. There are times when isolated (a relative term, there is no

such thing as pure isolation, even with machines) movements can be

beneficial.

Drew Baye

www.baye.com

Orlando, FL

> The leg curl, from a functional stand point is a waste of time. It does

> not mimmick any movement pattern in nature, and furthermore, isolates the

> hamstrings in a way the leg was not designed for. I would not recommend

> them.

>

> Garrison, CSCS

> Mesa, AZ

>

> To: Supertraining@...<Supertraining%40yahoogroups.comFrom>:

> tonypit45@... <tonypit45%40gmail.comDate>: Tue, 15 Apr 2008

> 19:08:02 -0500Subject: Leg Curls

>

> Hello Everyone,I'm hoping for some advice.From the perspective of

> technique, I've been working to place more of theload into the glutes and

> hamstrings for deadlifts and cleans. Thatnecessitates that I develop an

> effective program to strengthen my glutes andhamstrings. The first and most

> obvious step is to focus on learning thetechnique properly by doing

> deadlifts and cleans using a lighter weight. Ialso find that there are

> several exercises that work my hamstringseffectively, especially Romanian

> deadlifts and various forms of lunges. Idon't have access to a glute/ham

> machine, but I do glute/ham raises byanchoring my ankles. I also do reverse

> hyperextensions off a bench withankle weights.It seems to me that leg curls

> also work the hamstrings effectively.However, I have read articles that say

> increases in strength from leg curlsdo not transfer to movements like

> deadlifts and cleans (in much the same waythat many say increases in

> strength from leg extensions do not transfer toother movements). Basically,

> there seems to be a fairly large body ofopinion that leg curls are a waste

> of time. I was wondering if there arepeople in our forum who could shed some

> light on that subject. Pitruzzello, Ph.D.Chicago, IL

>

> =============================

>

>

--

Drew Baye

High Intensity Training

www.baye.com

Marc Mero Body Slam

279 Ave. Suite 1102

Altamonte Springs, FL 32714

407 678-BODY (2639)

www.mmbodyslam.com

[Guest guest]

There seems to be a lot of dogma creeping into posts. Machines are bad.

Feet have to be on the floor, etc. (Not to slam the people who said

these things - they are just two examples I remember and I agreed with

their overall advice).

I think the general gist of the posts were correct tho. Doing leg curls,

while it might have a minor carry-over to deadlift strength, is

certainly not an efficient way to increase hamstring strength for the

deadlift. Good mornings and RDL have far more transfer.

Glute-ham-gastroc as a machine (Dr. Yessis designed and I believe still

sells an excellent model) would have way more carry over than a leg curl.

I just don't see much efficiency in the leg curl movement. I'd much

sooner see assistance continued with the RDL (is the original poster

using good technique and initiating a stretch reflex right at the

amortization phase?) and adding good mornings, glute-ham-gastroc (if

available), pull-thrus, swings and power cleans or snatches from the hang.

Any of those assistance has far more carryover than a leg curl. Simply

as a matter of efficiency a leg curl would be very low on my list of

exercises. And I prefer not to use machines, obviously, but there are

some places and some pervasive reasons to use machines. And to train

with your feet off the floor. To simply say these practices are 'bad' is

really a mistake. There is a time and place for almost every movement,

including those on machines.

Just not too many, IMO.

:^)

Drew Baye wrote:

> If you recall, what I said was " there is probably little a leg curl

> will do

> for you if you're already doing deadlifts, except for provide work for the

> short head of the biceps femoris, which only crosses the knee and not the

> hip like the rest of the hamstrings. "

>

> I find the opinions here very interesting. If people in sports

> training are

> ridiculing the use of machines (when and where appropriate - there are

> right

> and wrong uses) it probably has more to do with unsubstantiated bias or

> misinformation being peddled as fact than any real understanding of the

> subject. Just my opinion

>

> While some exercises will be more appropriate than others in some

> circumstances, anything that increases the strength of a muscle will

> improve

> its function in other movements.

>

> Drew Baye

> Orlando, FL

>

> __._

--

Hobman

Saskatoon, CANADA