RE: VO2 estimates

October 8, 2007

I agree when talking about our time at CofC jeremy. I also agree that lactic

acid threshold is a big part of basketball conditioning as that will determine

the players perceived exhertion first, not a physiological limit. For instance

I just ran an estimated VO2 treadmill protocol myself (i havent been running for

awhile, so I am very out of shape) and I ran as long as I could....my HR was

nowhere near my max.....I just felt that I was working as hard as i could! This

is where this discussion came from on my part. I run alot of 300's and 300

shuttles with the womens bball team and I have noticed that wherever their wall

is.....they never seem to get past it. So to me that suggest that their lactate

tolerance is low. HR never seems to be effected, but performance definitely is.

It is not with everyone, just a couple of girls have that happen to them, so

that is why I was pondering the VO2 question. Great discussion lets keep it

going back and forth.

Edmonds

Greenville SC USA

=====================

s wrote:

I think this is a great discussion as well. One of the best that I've

seen here in a while. I think one thing that you have to watch out for is that

to much aerobic training will reduce power output. However, interval training

(particularly of the 60-120 sec variety) has been shown to improve VO2max. This

would typically be some of the longest drills done in Basketball Conditioning.

I personally think that more of this should be included in Basketball

conditioning. If you think back to our CofC days, we did 300 yard shuttle

pyramids with those guys a lot (almost daily) and they were fast, could jump

through the roof, were mentally tough, never got tired, and could run with

anyone that we played. that was by far the most fit team that I have ever had

the priviledge to work with. and that includes my time at Tennessee.

J s, MS, CSCS, USAW, NSCA-CPT

Athlete Development Systems,

LLC Mount Pleasant,

SC jjacobs24@...

==============================

To: Supertraining@...: jwe4240@...: Mon, 8 Oct 2007

05:21:37 -0700Subject: Re: VO2 estimates

That is a good article. I agree with what you said here. I admit that while

there shouldn't be a problem with basketball players and lactic acid buildup on

short sprint, I feel that at least at my level, this is a problem. I hope I

stated that correctly. I feel that most of my athletes that don't seem to be in

" good conditioning " are merely not able to push through discomfort to a more

physiological exhaustion. That last article that paraphrased seems very

relevant. I am not using VO2 as a training aid, it is more of a curiosity of

mine, but if that study is in fact true, if we can train at a higher intensities

for longer at greater a VO2, then to me it makes sense that it will increase the

number of 100% intensity sprints overall (just an arbitrary %). If my athlete

can play 40 minutes of a game and not drop their intensity significantly until

minute 38 and your athlete starts to drop at min 34, then there should be an

advantage for my athlete right? Eventhough it

may only be a half step, but that half step in basketball can be the difference

between an open look and a forced shot. Now whether that advantage

(physiologically) transfers into points on the scoreboard is another discussion

altogether. Doug,As for how we are using the HR monitors:I use them for every

conditioning session as well as have them where them during individuals.Starting

this week we will wear them during team workouts as well. I am hopeful to wear

them in an exhibition game, but that is a longshot.They record every second they

have them on. I look mostly at what percentage of HR they are working at, so i

try to modify workout via rest periods and such to keep their HR where I want

it. I agree that each person is different, but the idea would be to eventually

get HR watches to go along with these monitors and set them so that it will beep

when they are in or out of their range. Example....shuttle run: 2 athletes can

run the shuttle but both recover at different

paces, if athlete 1 is at full recovery at 1 min and athlete 2 is 3 minutes for

recovery, then we can have each athlete start their next run when they drop to a

certaing HR (set individually) so that we are working them correctly. Right now

we set arbitrary rest intervals that should be close for everyone, but arent

exact. 2:30 minutes rest may be way to much for some, but not quite enough for

others.I do like the idea that VO2 measures potential: I just had a girl come in

and I put here through the bruce protocol and here projected VO2 was alot higher

than I thought it would be. With the projected thinking, we have alot of room to

get her more fit, so that she can perform at a higher intensity for longer.

Right now she cant do multiple sprints at a moderate speed for any length of

time without her HR jumping up to over 200. Once again I hope this last

paragraph makes sense.....I know what Im talking about but sometime I dont write

that clearly. I find this discussion to

be very interesting so lets keep if going! EdmondsGreenville SC

USA===================== sregor99 wrote:Hello Doug,Here are

some thoughts on vo2 characteristics for high-intensity running sports like

basketball. In the following study, Tomlin and Wenger have reviewed the

importance of vo2 to such sports.Sports Med. 2001;31(1):1-11. The relationship

between aerobic fitness and recovery from high intensity intermittent exercise.

Tomlin DL, Wenger HA. http://tinyurl.com/2hej3aThey conclude: " In summary, the

literature suggests that aerobic fitness enhances recovery from high intensity

intermittent exercise through increased aerobic response, improved lactate

removal and enhanced PCr regeneration. " The unknown variable is how much aerobic

fitness is required and can it be achieved without endangering high-intensity

and anaerobic power.Here is another way of looking at vo2 in team sports. Even

though we know that vo2max does not correlate well with

performance in a number of athletic endeavours, probably because some

individuals are able to perform at a greater percentage of their vo2; even so,

80% of 70 (vo2m) is still better than 90% of 60 (vo2m) if you follow that.So,

even though you might not want to use vo2 as a performance measure for selecting

individual players -- in the draft for example -- from a team perspective,

raising vo2 overall could result in team performance improvements, particularly

in the last quarter of a game when things start to get tough. In addition, it

could allow your players to train harder at the high-intensity intervals and

shuttles etc.In another study, football (soccer) players improved their

performance substantially as a team after an aerobic conditioning program.Med

Sci Sports Exerc. 2001 Nov;33(11):1925-31. Aerobic endurance training improves

soccer performance. Helgerud J, Engen LC, Wisloff U, Hoff J.Just some ideas for

consideration. Gympie, Australia>>

Good point . I agree that heart rate training ranges etc,. are more

valuable to a strength coach / trainers than vo2 max. I have discussed this with

numerous collegues that are Phd's in exercise science who think it is useless

for performance unless the athlete is a triathlete or marathoner. Also they feel

it is more a test to show potential not a test to guide or help change or

improve performance. Just more thoughts\.

October 9, 2007

--- s wrote:

> Ralph,

> you are correct, it does depend on the type of game

> you play. for a slow game with few sprints, Lactate

> threshold is of little use. However, many coaches

> would prefer to be able to use (at least when

> needed) a fast paced game, which does require more

> lactic acid tolerance. The ability to continue to

> sprint, jump, and change direction at the end of the

> game can be the difference between a win and a loss.

> So even if your isn't a run and gun team, they need

> to be able to defend one and still have fresh enough

> legs at the end of the game to be athletic. so for

> this reason lactic acid tolerance should be an

> intergral part of basketball conditioning. Most of

> our energy as strength coaches for basketball should

> be spent developing agility, vertical jump, and then

> lactic acid tolerance.

I agree with you on this. I think one of the big

questions that needs to be answered, and for which I

feel there is sometimes a great deal of disagreement,

is how to raise the lactate threshold. I am of the

opinion, based on my experience and study, that the

best training is in the sport one is participating in.

Over the years I have come to the conclusion that

resistance training is good in the off season for

general conditioning and overall strength but when it

comes to pre-season and in season training the

training has to be specific to the sport and using the

activities of the sport.

I question the use of HR monitor during scrimmages or

game because of the stop and go nature of the sport.

There is short term high intensity followed by long

recovery. If you are using them when performing

intervals they can be useful just long as you realize

that the are not accurate with very short intervals

(<1-2 minutes).

Basketball is a game of very short intervals.

See the following-:

***************

Physical Demands for Different Positions

http://coachesinfo.com/category/basketball/22/

http://coachesinfo.com/category/basketball/16/

*****************

On average centers and forwards spend < 1 sec/ minute

of playing time either walking, running or sprinting.

Guards spend 4 seconds/ minute of playing time either

walking, running or sprinting.

The second study is very interesting given the above

figures. In order to be able collect that much

detail of data they had to have very sophisticated and

expensive HR monitors capable of monitoring and

recording every Heart beat on a second to second

basis. I have been using HR monitors for training

since 1985 and Polar models from the $100-$300 range.

It is only the very expensive downloadable models that

can give you that type of precision. The HR monitor

(Polar S210 $150-$200 retail) which I presently use

does not have this precise a capability. It can give

me total time spent in five different training zones

but not a minute to minute nor a second to second

precision.

It is important to realize that the Heart does not

rapidly adjust to different levels of intensity very

quickly. There is a long lag time even at steady state

work of up to 2 minutes before the HR matches the

effort.

Most HR monitors on the market given 5 second average

rather than realtime.

> Also, though O2 consumption is not of value, HR does

> not just reflect O2 consumption. It also correlates

> with CO2 levels. For proof of this go to a

> basketball court and run as fast as you can from

> baseline to the opposite foul line and back 6 times.

> this should take less than 60 seconds if you are

> reasonably fit. then check your heart rate, you will

> note a marked increase (most likely higher than your

> training Heart rate range). So when doing the

> fitness portion of your training (which I'm sure is

> what was referring to in his original

> post), Heart rate can be a valuable tool for gauging

> both how hard is athletes are working and how well

> they are recovering. If they are pushing themselves

> hard, they should be above their aerobic training

> heart rate range, and if they are fit then their

> heart rate should drop quickly during rest.

While the HR monitor may have some value in this

regard it has its limitations. Respiratory rate more

closely reflects CO2 exchange. A rise in CO2 will

increase respiratory rate more quickly than the HR and

the Respiratory rate will return more quickly to

resting as the CO2 drops than will the heart rate.

I agree that the best way to determine fitness is how

quickly an athlete recovers. What most do not

realize is that it is the rise in CO2 that is the

primary driver of both the respiratory rate and HR and

not the drop in O2.

O2 saturation very rarely drops below 90% even in very

intense physical activity.

>

> J s, MS, CSCS, USAW, NSCA-CPT

> Athlete Development Systems,

> LLC Mount Pleasant,

> SC jjacobs24@...

Ralph Giarnella MD

Southington Ct USA

October 9, 2007

--- s wrote:

> Ralph,

> you are correct, it does depend on the type of game

> you play. for a slow game with few sprints, Lactate

> threshold is of little use. However, many coaches

> would prefer to be able to use (at least when

> needed) a fast paced game, which does require more

> lactic acid tolerance. The ability to continue to

> sprint, jump, and change direction at the end of the

> game can be the difference between a win and a loss.

> So even if your isn't a run and gun team, they need

> to be able to defend one and still have fresh enough

> legs at the end of the game to be athletic. so for

> this reason lactic acid tolerance should be an

> intergral part of basketball conditioning. Most of

> our energy as strength coaches for basketball should

> be spent developing agility, vertical jump, and then

> lactic acid tolerance.

I agree with you on this. I think one of the big

questions that needs to be answered, and for which I

feel there is sometimes a great deal of disagreement,

is how to raise the lactate threshold. I am of the

opinion, based on my experience and study, that the

best training is in the sport one is participating in.

Over the years I have come to the conclusion that

resistance training is good in the off season for

general conditioning and overall strength but when it

comes to pre-season and in season training the

training has to be specific to the sport and using the

activities of the sport.

I question the use of HR monitor during scrimmages or

game because of the stop and go nature of the sport.

There is short term high intensity followed by long

recovery. If you are using them when performing

intervals they can be useful just long as you realize

that the are not accurate with very short intervals

(<1-2 minutes).

Basketball is a game of very short intervals.

See the following-:

***************

Physical Demands for Different Positions

http://coachesinfo.com/category/basketball/22/

http://coachesinfo.com/category/basketball/16/

*****************

On average centers and forwards spend < 1 sec/ minute

of playing time either walking, running or sprinting.

Guards spend 4 seconds/ minute of playing time either

walking, running or sprinting.

The second study is very interesting given the above

figures. In order to be able collect that much

detail of data they had to have very sophisticated and

expensive HR monitors capable of monitoring and

recording every Heart beat on a second to second

basis. I have been using HR monitors for training

since 1985 and Polar models from the $100-$300 range.

It is only the very expensive downloadable models that

can give you that type of precision. The HR monitor

(Polar S210 $150-$200 retail) which I presently use

does not have this precise a capability. It can give

me total time spent in five different training zones

but not a minute to minute nor a second to second

precision.

It is important to realize that the Heart does not

rapidly adjust to different levels of intensity very

quickly. There is a long lag time even at steady state

work of up to 2 minutes before the HR matches the

effort.

Most HR monitors on the market given 5 second average

rather than realtime.

> Also, though O2 consumption is not of value, HR does

> not just reflect O2 consumption. It also correlates

> with CO2 levels. For proof of this go to a

> basketball court and run as fast as you can from

> baseline to the opposite foul line and back 6 times.

> this should take less than 60 seconds if you are

> reasonably fit. then check your heart rate, you will

> note a marked increase (most likely higher than your

> training Heart rate range). So when doing the

> fitness portion of your training (which I'm sure is

> what was referring to in his original

> post), Heart rate can be a valuable tool for gauging

> both how hard is athletes are working and how well

> they are recovering. If they are pushing themselves

> hard, they should be above their aerobic training

> heart rate range, and if they are fit then their

> heart rate should drop quickly during rest.

While the HR monitor may have some value in this

regard it has its limitations. Respiratory rate more

closely reflects CO2 exchange. A rise in CO2 will

increase respiratory rate more quickly than the HR and

the Respiratory rate will return more quickly to

resting as the CO2 drops than will the heart rate.

I agree that the best way to determine fitness is how

quickly an athlete recovers. What most do not

realize is that it is the rise in CO2 that is the

primary driver of both the respiratory rate and HR and

not the drop in O2.

O2 saturation very rarely drops below 90% even in very

intense physical activity.

>

> J s, MS, CSCS, USAW, NSCA-CPT

> Athlete Development Systems,

> LLC Mount Pleasant,

> SC jjacobs24@...

Ralph Giarnella MD

Southington Ct USA

October 9, 2007

--- Edmonds wrote:

> I agree when talking about our time at CofC jeremy.

> I also agree that lactic acid threshold is a big

> part of basketball conditioning as that will

> determine the players perceived exhertion first, not

> a physiological limit. For instance I just ran an

> estimated VO2 treadmill protocol myself (i havent

> been running for awhile, so I am very out of shape)

> and I ran as long as I could....my HR was nowhere

> near my max.....I just felt that I was working as

> hard as i could! This is where this discussion came

> from on my part. I run alot of 300's and 300

> shuttles with the womens bball team and I have

> noticed that wherever their wall is.....they never

> seem to get past it. So to me that suggest that

> their lactate tolerance is low. HR never seems to

> be effected, but performance definitely is. It is

> not with everyone, just a couple of girls have that

> happen to them, so that is why I was pondering the

> VO2 question. Great discussion lets keep it going

> back and forth.

>

> Edmonds

> Greenville SC USA

, I think that it is very important to

emphasize that your lactate threshold is nowhere near

your HR max. Very poorly condition individuals may

reach their lactate threshold at about 50-60% max HR

whereas high trained endurance athletes may be able to

sustain lactate threshold at close to 90% of their

maximum HR.

I would be very interested in knowing what protocol

you used as a VO2 max protocol. The standard tests

that I am acquainted with and which I described in an

earlier post is a step test with increasing effort

every 2 minutes until athlete is no longer able to

increase their effort.

Just a simple note- while max HR and HR at 100 % VO2

max are identical 80% of Max HR is not the same as

80% of VO2 max. If you are interested in why I will

try to explain this further as well as how to work out

the formula. You do not have to know what an

individuals VO2 max is to calculate at what percentage

of their VO2 max they are training.

Ralph Giarnella MD

Southington Ct USA

October 9, 2007

Ralph,

I realize that Lactate threshold is not near the max HR, Im sorry if it

sounded differently. What I was trying to get at was something that you

eventually said: poorly conditioned athletes have a threshold at 50-60%, whereas

highly conditioned have a threshold at 90%. The most efficient way to get to

that 90% is what Im trying to get at. By no means am I trying to use VO2 as an

absolute way to train basketball players (or HR for that matter) Im just trying

to think outside the box and look at different ways to evaluate the same

situation. I train my athletes in general like Doug had talked about in his

last reply, over many different aspects (plyos, intervals, weights....ect). I

guess this all came about when trying to take an individual who was struggling

and bring them further along. I think that if she can get her lactate threshold

to more of the 90% range, then she will be a more productive player. I like

being able to look at the HR data after conditioning

days (albeit they may not be fully accurate) and seeing the athletes recovery

during conditioning drills. When I looked this morning, max HR hadnt changed

much over 4 weeks, but their drop in HR had changed at about a rate of 5-10

beats (when doing 2 300 yd shuttles). Even in a game situation I would be

interested in seeing just the overall readout, even though it may not reflect

exact change. I just think it will be interesting, I have no idea if it will

tell me anything. But i will steal a line from dougs last post....i think i am

rambling and I have no idea if any of this makes any sense....long day..

everyone have a good one

Edmonds

Greenville SC USA

--- Edmonds wrote:

> I agree when talking about our time at CofC jeremy.

> I also agree that lactic acid threshold is a big

> part of basketball conditioning as that will

> determine the players perceived exhertion first, not

> a physiological limit. For instance I just ran an

> estimated VO2 treadmill protocol myself (i havent

> been running for awhile, so I am very out of shape)

> and I ran as long as I could....my HR was nowhere

> near my max.....I just felt that I was working as

> hard as i could! This is where this discussion came

> from on my part. I run alot of 300's and 300

> shuttles with the womens bball team and I have

> noticed that wherever their wall is.....they never

> seem to get past it. So to me that suggest that

> their lactate tolerance is low. HR never seems to

> be effected, but performance definitely is. It is

> not with everyone, just a couple of girls have that

> happen to them, so that is why I was pondering the

> VO2 question. Great discussion lets keep it going

> back and forth.

>

> Edmonds

> Greenville SC USA

Ralph Giarnella wrote:

, I think that it is very important to

emphasize that your lactate threshold is nowhere near

your HR max. Very poorly condition individuals may

reach their lactate threshold at about 50-60% max HR

whereas high trained endurance athletes may be able to

sustain lactate threshold at close to 90% of their

maximum HR.

I would be very interested in knowing what protocol

you used as a VO2 max protocol. The standard tests

that I am acquainted with and which I described in an

earlier post is a step test with increasing effort

every 2 minutes until athlete is no longer able to

increase their effort.

Just a simple note- while max HR and HR at 100 % VO2

max are identical 80% of Max HR is not the same as

80% of VO2 max. If you are interested in why I will

try to explain this further as well as how to work out

the formula. You do not have to know what an

individuals VO2 max is to calculate at what percentage

of their VO2 max they are training.

========================================

October 9, 2007

Ralph wrote:

<While the HR monitor may have some value in thisregard it has its limitations.

Respiratory rate moreclosely reflects CO2 exchange. A rise in CO2 willincrease

respiratory rate more quickly than the HR andthe Respiratory rate will return

more quickly toresting as the CO2 drops than will the heart rate.I agree that

the best way to determine fitness is howquickly an athlete recovers. What most

do notrealize is that it is the rise in CO2 that is theprimary driver of both

the respiratory rate and HR andnot the drop in O2.O2 saturation very rarely

drops below 90% even in veryintense physical activity.>

***

This is exactly true...but there currently is no way of monitoring on court RR

that I am aware of. This can only be done with a breathing apparatus, which one

can not effectively do 300 yard shuttles with. So for the time being, using the

HR monitors to gauge recovery can be at least partially useful, and better than

guessing.

J s, MS, CSCS, USAW, NSCA-CPT

Athlete Development Systems,

LLC Mount Pleasant,

SC jjacobs24@...

==========================

To: Supertraining@...: ragiarn@...: Tue, 9 Oct 2007

07:45:32 -0700Subject: Re: VO2 estimates

--- s wrote:> Ralph,> you are correct, it

does depend on the type of game> you play. for a slow game with few sprints,

Lactate> threshold is of little use. However, many coaches> would prefer to be

able to use (at least when> needed) a fast paced game, which does require more>

lactic acid tolerance. The ability to continue to> sprint, jump, and change

direction at the end of the> game can be the difference between a win and a

loss.> So even if your isn't a run and gun team, they need> to be able to defend

one and still have fresh enough> legs at the end of the game to be athletic. so

for> this reason lactic acid tolerance should be an> intergral part of

basketball conditioning. Most of> our energy as strength coaches for basketball

should> be spent developing agility, vertical jump, and then> lactic acid

tolerance.I agree with you on this. I think one of the bigquestions that needs

to be answered, and for which Ifeel there is sometimes a great deal of

disagreement,is how to raise the lactate threshold. I am of theopinion, based on

my experience and study, that thebest training is in the sport one is

participating in.Over the years I have come to the conclusion thatresistance

training is good in the off season forgeneral conditioning and overall strength

but when itcomes to pre-season and in season training thetraining has to be

specific to the sport and using theactivities of the sport. I question the use

of HR monitor during scrimmages orgame because of the stop and go nature of the

sport. There is short term high intensity followed by longrecovery. If you are

using them when performingintervals they can be useful just long as you

realizethat the are not accurate with very short intervals(<1-2

minutes).Basketball is a game of very short intervals.See the

following-:***************Physical Demands for Different

Positionshttp://coachesinfo.com/category/basketball/22/http://coachesinfo.com/ca\

tegory/basketball/16/*****************On average centers and forwards spend < 1

sec/ minuteof playing time either walking, running or sprinting. Guards spend 4

seconds/ minute of playing time eitherwalking, running or sprinting.The second

study is very interesting given the abovefigures. In order to be able collect

that much detail of data they had to have very sophisticated andexpensive HR

monitors capable of monitoring andrecording every Heart beat on a second to

secondbasis. I have been using HR monitors for trainingsince 1985 and Polar

models from the $100-$300 range. It is only the very expensive downloadable

models thatcan give you that type of precision. The HR monitor(Polar S210

$150-$200 retail) which I presently usedoes not have this precise a capability.

It can giveme total time spent in five different training zonesbut not a minute

to minute nor a second to secondprecision. It is important to realize that the

Heart does notrapidly adjust to different levels of intensity veryquickly. There

is a long lag time even at steady statework of up to 2 minutes before the HR

matches theeffort. Most HR monitors on the market given 5 second averagerather

than realtime. > Also, though O2 consumption is not of value, HR does> not just

reflect O2 consumption. It also correlates> with CO2 levels. For proof of this

go to a> basketball court and run as fast as you can from> baseline to the

opposite foul line and back 6 times.> this should take less than 60 seconds if

you are> reasonably fit. then check your heart rate, you will> note a marked

increase (most likely higher than your> training Heart rate range). So when

doing the> fitness portion of your training (which I'm sure is> what

was referring to in his original> post), Heart rate can be a valuable tool for

gauging> both how hard is athletes are working and how well> they are

recovering. If they are pushing themselves> hard, they should be above their

aerobic training> heart rate range, and if they are fit then their> heart rate

should drop quickly during rest.While the HR monitor may have some value in

thisregard it has its limitations. Respiratory rate moreclosely reflects CO2

exchange. A rise in CO2 willincrease respiratory rate more quickly than the HR

andthe Respiratory rate will return more quickly toresting as the CO2 drops than

will the heart rate.I agree that the best way to determine fitness is howquickly

an athlete recovers. What most do notrealize is that it is the rise in CO2 that

is theprimary driver of both the respiratory rate and HR andnot the drop in

O2.O2 saturation very rarely drops below 90% even in veryintense physical

activity.> > J s, MS, CSCS, USAW, NSCA-CPT> Athlete Development

Systems,> LLC Mount Pleasant,> SC jjacobs24@...

Giarnella MD Southington Ct USA

=====================================

October 9, 2007

Well, they may need to build up some full ROM lactic acid tolerance. Maybe 1 min

full squat jumps with a light med ball (reaching overhead at completion). Or it

could be that they just need to do something harder to further increase their

buffering ability. Thats one of the reasons that I like doing the dynamic warmup

drills during the shuttle. like lap one is a frankenstein lunge, 2 is a b-skip,

3 is a frog jump, 4 is a backward hip drop skip, 5 is a backwards sprint, 6 is a

sprint.

If you do the pyramid then each lap is always the same thing. It takes much

longer to do, but their legs will be jelly by the time they get to lap 6. Its

like running 800's to get ready for running 400's. Just by doing some training

at the limit of their anaerobic capacity (2 min-ish), it should improve their

ability to train at a lower level. It probably would not take much of this to

increase their capacity enough to get over the wall (maybe once every 10 days or

so). Or...maybe they are just pansies, in which case...I'm sorry.

God bless! Talk soon.

J s, MS, CSCS, USAW, NSCA-CPT

Athlete Development Systems,

LLC Mount Pleasant, SC

jjacobs24@...

==================================

To: Supertraining@...: jwe4240@...: Mon, 8 Oct 2007

15:05:24 -0700Subject: Re: VO2 estimates

I agree when talking about our time at CofC jeremy. I also agree that lactic

acid threshold is a big part of basketball conditioning as that will determine

the players perceived exhertion first, not a physiological limit. For instance I

just ran an estimated VO2 treadmill protocol myself (i havent been running for