Guest guest Posted October 2, 2007 Report Share Posted October 2, 2007 " The Beep Test " has a chart to calculate VO2 according to how many 20 meter runs they can maintain with the cadence set by the CD. If you google Multistage Fitness Test it will show you an array of websites to order it from. Stacey Torman, MSCC, CSCS University of Alabama at Birmingham VO2 estimates I have been doing research on VO2 Max testing and am looking for a good way to estimate athletes VO2 max. I have been looking at the Astrand treadmill test because it is fairly straightforward and easy. Upon looking at this I have come across articles that suggest that there needs to be an age correction done for it to be more accurate. I realize that it wont be spot on either way, but does that test give me a fairly reasonable assesment....within 5-7 ml/kg min? Does anyone have other tests that seem to be more accurate or have worked for them? Any ideas would be ideal. Thanks. ============================ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 2, 2007 Report Share Posted October 2, 2007 Jack s has a couple of books out that estimate VO2Max based on race performance at various distances. I believe he uses the term VDOT. My recollection is that people think his estimates come very close to test results. Jon Haddan Irvine, CA --- jwe4240 wrote: > I have been doing research on VO2 Max testing and am > looking for a > good way to estimate athletes VO2 max. I have been > looking at the > Astrand treadmill test because it is fairly > straightforward and easy. > Upon looking at this I have come across articles > that suggest that > there needs to be an age correction done for it to > be more accurate. > I realize that it wont be spot on either way, but > does that test give > me a fairly reasonable assesment....within 5-7 ml/kg > min? Does anyone > have other tests that seem to be more accurate or > have worked for > them? Any ideas would be ideal. Thanks. > > Edmonds > Greenville, SC > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 2, 2007 Report Share Posted October 2, 2007 Hi , Someone might correct me, but I believe that to get an accurate result, you would need to have the treadmill calibrated first. Sharah Sydney Australia VO2 estimates I have been doing research on VO2 Max testing and am looking for a good way to estimate athletes VO2 max. I have been looking at the Astrand treadmill test because it is fairly straightforward and easy. Upon looking at this I have come across articles that suggest that there needs to be an age correction done for it to be more accurate. I realize that it wont be spot on either way, but does that test give me a fairly reasonable assesment... .within 5-7 ml/kg min? Does anyone have other tests that seem to be more accurate or have worked for them? Any ideas would be ideal. Thanks. =============================== Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 2, 2007 Report Share Posted October 2, 2007 Perhaps the following might be of some help. Treadmill VO2 max Test http://www.brianmac.co.uk/treadmill.htm Ralph Giarnella MD Southington Ct USA --- jwe4240 wrote: > I have been doing research on VO2 Max testing and am > looking for a > good way to estimate athletes VO2 max. I have been > looking at the > Astrand treadmill test because it is fairly > straightforward and easy. > Upon looking at this I have come across articles > that suggest that > there needs to be an age correction done for it to > be more accurate. > I realize that it wont be spot on either way, but > does that test give > me a fairly reasonable assesment....within 5-7 ml/kg > min? Does anyone > have other tests that seem to be more accurate or > have worked for > them? Any ideas would be ideal. Thanks. > > Edmonds > Greenville, SC > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 2, 2007 Report Share Posted October 2, 2007 Hi I used this programme for many years with schoolchildren/athletes. It may be of use to you. There is plenty of info on the net. Here are a couple of links. http://www.brianmac.co.uk/msftable.htm http://www.topendsports.com/testing/tests/20mshuttle.htm Denis Doyle Shropshire UK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 3, 2007 Report Share Posted October 3, 2007 In a message dated 10/3/2007 5:46:38 AM Central Daylight Time, jon_haddan@... writes: Jack s has a couple of books out that estimate VO2Max based on race performance at various distances. I believe he uses the term VDOT. My recollection is that people think his estimates come very close to test results. *** Jon is correct about Jack s and his approach to running efficiency and V02max, and his tables consider both in offering performance projections over various distances. At one point s was so confident in the accuracy of his tables that he considered proposing that athletes could 'qualify' for the NCAA 10K on the basis of their time projection on his vDOT chart. Jack felt that most collegiate athletes run few truly competitive 10K's during the course of a regular season. His original tables, which are quite extensive, appeared in his book, Oxygen Power. Ken Jakalski Lisle High School Lisle, Illinois USA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 3, 2007 Report Share Posted October 3, 2007 Coach, I understand the value of VO2max as a research tool and I understand that it may be beneficial it trying to sort out elite athletes from other less talented athletes when trying to build an elite team, however I am at somewhat at a loss in trying the understand how knowing an individuals VO2 max is of any utility for a coach at lower levels of competition. There is a much more to success of an athlete than VO2 max. Granted an individual with a genetically limited VO2 max of 45 will not likely be able to compete with an individual with a genetically gifted 65 VO2 max all other things being equal, however just having a high VO2 max does not guarantee success and there is a limit has to how much training can increase VO2 max. Training can only help an individual reach their generic potential. As a coach perhaps you can answer these questions. Ralph Giarnella MD Southington Ct USA --- CoachJ1@... wrote: > > In a message dated 10/3/2007 5:46:38 AM Central > Daylight Time, > jon_haddan@... writes: > > Jack s has a couple of books out that > estimate > VO2Max based on race performance at various > distances. > I believe he uses the term VDOT. My recollection is > that people think his estimates come very close to > test results. > > > *** > Jon is correct about Jack s and his approach > to running efficiency and > V02max, and his tables consider both in offering > performance projections > over various distances. At one point s was > so confident in the accuracy > of his tables that he considered proposing that > athletes could 'qualify' for > the NCAA 10K on the basis of their time projection > on his vDOT chart. Jack > felt that most collegiate athletes run few truly > competitive 10K's during the > course of a regular season. > > His original tables, which are quite extensive, > appeared in his book, Oxygen > Power. > > Ken Jakalski > Lisle High School > Lisle, Illinois USA > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 3, 2007 Report Share Posted October 3, 2007 Edmonds wrote: > I have been doing research on VO2 Max testing and am looking for a > good way to estimate athletes VO2 max. For what activity? Just asking, because VO2max is specific to the activity being tested. For example, if you're working with swimmers, then VO2max tests on a treadmill or stationary cycle may not accurately reflect initial VO2max in swimming, and follow-up testing on these apparatuses (apparati???) will not accurately show changes in swimming VO2max due to training. Regards, s Ardmore, PA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 3, 2007 Report Share Posted October 3, 2007 First of all thanks for the responses. I am currently just looking at using VO2 data as one method of looking at and monitoring fitness. I am currently working with basketball players and have equipment that monitors their HR throughout all of their training. There are a few athletes who are lagging behind conditioning wise and I am just batting around ideas to spice up conditioning. I am just looking for a different way to break down data and also other ways to quantify their current conditioning levels. I have been doing different length intervals with all athletes for years, both on a bike and treadmill, after reading some posts about interval work I decided to look into it and saw alot on VO2. My philosophy has always been to get the most (physiologically) out of my athletes and put them on the court/field at 100% of their natural ability. I figure if an athlete has a physiological limit of 60 ml/kg min and they are currently at 50....they are not at their full ability or efficiency? Just the thought process in my head...it may be totally off base, please comment and let me know what opinions are out their. Hopefully this all makes sense....I tend to ramble..so sorry if that is the case. Edmonds Greenville, SC > > > > > In a message dated 10/3/2007 5:46:38 AM Central > > Daylight Time, > > jon_haddan@... writes: > > > > Jack s has a couple of books out that > > estimate > > VO2Max based on race performance at various > > distances. > > I believe he uses the term VDOT. My recollection is > > that people think his estimates come very close to > > test results. > > > > > > *** > > Jon is correct about Jack s and his approach > > to running efficiency and > > V02max, and his tables consider both in offering > > performance projections > > over various distances. At one point s was > > so confident in the accuracy > > of his tables that he considered proposing that > > athletes could 'qualify' for > > the NCAA 10K on the basis of their time projection > > on his vDOT chart. Jack > > felt that most collegiate athletes run few truly > > competitive 10K's during the > > course of a regular season. > > > > His original tables, which are quite extensive, > > appeared in his book, Oxygen > > Power. > > > > Ken Jakalski > > Lisle High School > > Lisle, Illinois USA > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 3, 2007 Report Share Posted October 3, 2007 , if you are actually testing VO2max's, I think it could be a great asset for training your athlete's. Particularly b-ball, soccer and other sports that require more running. Realizing that b-ball is more of an anaerobic sport, there is still an aerobic quality that is important to develop as well as other valuable data that can be collected from the test. That being said, interval training is highly important in increasing VO2 max. So testing will show you if you are doing enough. An important value to take note of is each athlete's RER (respiratory exchange ratio, which shows the amount of CO2 that someone is exhaling relative to their O2 intake) (I know that you know this, its there for others). This number will basically show you an athlete's lactic acid tolerance. Most relatively fit people will have an RER of approximately 1.24, but well trained people can hit numbers closer to 1.5 ( one of my clients tapped-out at 1.47 today, and he was 45 years old). If your athlete's are below 1.35, then it would show you that they could certainly benefit from more lactic acid tolerance training. So then including things like 300 hundred yard shuttle pyramids ( I particularly like them with dynamic flex drills instead of running to tax the legs more, though running is also important), circuit training for legs with 60-90sec work periods and 2 minute rest periods, and even some higher volume lifting would be directly beneficial to their sport. If time allows for this type of individual testing, I think that the data is much more reliable than other types of testing, and much more informative. If you are seriously considering this and want to talk it out, feel free to give me a call. talk later and have a good one, J s MS, CSCS Personal Performance/Health Specialist Athlete Development Systems, LLC Mt. Pleasant, SC jjacobs24@... =========================== Re: VO2 estimates First of all thanks for the responses. I am currently just looking at using VO2 data as one method of looking at and monitoring fitness. I am currently working with basketball players and have equipment that monitors their HR throughout all of their training. There are a few athletes who are lagging behind conditioning wise and I am just batting around ideas to spice up conditioning. I am just looking for a different way to break down data and also other ways to quantify their current conditioning levels. I have been doing different length intervals with all athletes for years, both on a bike and treadmill, after reading some posts about interval work I decided to look into it and saw alot on VO2. My philosophy has always been to get the most (physiologically) out of my athletes and put them on the court/field at 100% of their natural ability. I figure if an athlete has a physiological limit of 60 ml/kg min and they are currently at 50....they are not at their full ability or efficiency? Just the thought process in my head...it may be totally off base, please comment and let me know what opinions are out their. Hopefully this all makes sense....I tend to ramble..so sorry if that is the case. Edmonds Greenville, SC > > > > > In a message dated 10/3/2007 5:46:38 AM Central > > Daylight Time, > > jon_haddan@... writes: > > > > Jack s has a couple of books out that > > estimate > > VO2Max based on race performance at various > > distances. > > I believe he uses the term VDOT. My recollection is > > that people think his estimates come very close to > > test results. > > > > > > *** > > Jon is correct about Jack s and his approach > > to running efficiency and > > V02max, and his tables consider both in offering > > performance projections > > over various distances. At one point s was > > so confident in the accuracy > > of his tables that he considered proposing that > > athletes could 'qualify' for > > the NCAA 10K on the basis of their time projection > > on his vDOT chart. Jack > > felt that most collegiate athletes run few truly > > competitive 10K's during the > > course of a regular season. > > > > His original tables, which are quite extensive, > > appeared in his book, Oxygen > > Power. > > > > Ken Jakalski > > Lisle High School > > Lisle, Illinois USA > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 4, 2007 Report Share Posted October 4, 2007 I could do that if I had cushy equipment like you do!!!! :>) I am not actually testing a true max though, just estimating. I agree that that would be beneficial. I am more so trying to correlate VO2 to HR so I can veiw HR data and correlate to VO2. The problem I have there is that as you become more " trained " your VO2 should go up? But your max HR should go down? So is it feasable to try to compare these values on D1 athletes who should be trained?? Totally random drawn out question.....but that is how I think. All in all, I have a really expensive set of HR monitors that record every second of data and I can view on my computer. Now I am trying to figure out exactly how to get the most out of that data?? That may be a totally different thread all together.... God Bless! Edmonds Greenville, SC USA ============================ JEREMIAH J JACOBS wrote: , if you are actually testing VO2max's, I think it could be a great asset for training your athlete's. Particularly b-ball, soccer and other sports that require more running. Realizing that b-ball is more of an anaerobic sport, there is still an aerobic quality that is important to develop as well as other valuable data that can be collected from the test. That being said, interval training is highly important in increasing VO2 max. So testing will show you if you are doing enough. An important value to take note of is each athlete's RER (respiratory exchange ratio, which shows the amount of CO2 that someone is exhaling relative to their O2 intake) (I know that you know this, its there for others). This number will basically show you an athlete's lactic acid tolerance. Most relatively fit people will have an RER of approximately 1.24, but well trained people can hit numbers closer to 1.5 ( one of my clients tapped-out at 1.47 today, and he was 45 years old). If your athlete's are below 1.35, then it would show you that they could certainly benefit from more lactic acid tolerance training. So then including things like 300 hundred yard shuttle pyramids ( I particularly like them with dynamic flex drills instead of running to tax the legs more, though running is also important), circuit training for legs with 60-90sec work periods and 2 minute rest periods, and even some higher volume lifting would be directly beneficial to their sport. If time allows for this type of individual testing, I think that the data is much more reliable than other types of testing, and much more informative. If you are seriously considering this and want to talk it out, feel free to give me a call. talk later and have a good one, J s MS, CSCS Personal Performance/Health Specialist Athlete Development Systems, LLC Mt. Pleasant, SC jjacobs24@... =========================== Re: VO2 estimates First of all thanks for the responses. I am currently just looking at using VO2 data as one method of looking at and monitoring fitness. I am currently working with basketball players and have equipment that monitors their HR throughout all of their training. There are a few athletes who are lagging behind conditioning wise and I am just batting around ideas to spice up conditioning. I am just looking for a different way to break down data and also other ways to quantify their current conditioning levels. I have been doing different length intervals with all athletes for years, both on a bike and treadmill, after reading some posts about interval work I decided to look into it and saw alot on VO2. My philosophy has always been to get the most (physiologically) out of my athletes and put them on the court/field at 100% of their natural ability. I figure if an athlete has a physiological limit of 60 ml/kg min and they are currently at 50....they are not at their full ability or efficiency? Just the thought process in my head...it may be totally off base, please comment and let me know what opinions are out their. Hopefully this all makes sense....I tend to ramble..so sorry if that is the case. Edmonds Greenville, SC > > Coach, I understand the value of VO2max as a research > tool and I understand that it may be beneficial it > trying to sort out elite athletes from other less > talented athletes when trying to build an elite team, > however I am at somewhat at a loss in trying the > understand how knowing an individuals VO2 max is of > any utility for a coach at lower levels of > competition. > > There is a much more to success of an athlete than VO2 > max. Granted an individual with a genetically limited > VO2 max of 45 will not likely be able to compete with > an individual with a genetically gifted 65 VO2 max all > other things being equal, however just having a high > VO2 max does not guarantee success and there is a > limit has to how much training can increase VO2 max. > Training can only help an individual reach their > generic potential. > > As a coach perhaps you can answer these questions. > > Ralph Giarnella MD > Southington Ct USA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 4, 2007 Report Share Posted October 4, 2007 Hey ! Maybe just use training heart rate. Or take the intervals you use to improve certain energy systems and use the volume of max efforts performed at a certain speed of time as your max output or whatever you want to call it. I'm sure you have thought of all this many times before. Doug Fairbanks ton South Carolina ============================ To: Supertraining@...: pushprogress@...: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 14:45:46 +0000Subject: Re: VO2 estimates Edmonds wrote:> I have been doing research on VO2 Max testing and am looking for a > good way to estimate athletes VO2 max.For what activity? Just asking, because VO2max is specific to the activity being tested. For example, if you're working with swimmers, then VO2max tests on a treadmill or stationary cycle may not accurately reflect initial VO2max in swimming, and follow-up testing on these apparatuses (apparati???) will not accurately show changes in swimming VO2max due to training.Regards, sArdmore, PA =================================== Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 4, 2007 Report Share Posted October 4, 2007 VO2 max is probably not a very good gauge for basketball fitness. Basketball is a series of short sprints with relatively long recovery times between sprints. Lactate tolerance is not even important since the sprints are short enough so that there is little or no lactate build and the time between sprints is long enough to prevent lactate build up. As I am sure you know, a basketball court is 94 feet in length (approx 30 meters) and the distance from foul line to foul line is 56 feet (approx 18 meters). Most of the running your players have to do is foul line to foul line. The following url will bring you to a chart of VO2 max values for different sports. You will notice that baskeball VO2max values are in the same range as baseball, football, gymnastics and significantly lower than running, bicycling, and rowing. http://www.sport-fitness-advisor.com/VO2max.html The type of fitness will depend on the type of basketball you plan running. Is it a run and gun type basketball or is it slow down type basketball. I am not a basketball coach nor have I ever been, however what I have learned over the years is that good coach's try to set up a game plan base on the strength and weaknesses of the they athletes he has. Even if you plan to have a run and gun type offense in the hopes of running the other teams off the court your athletes need to sprint approximately 20 meters on each possession. You have probably already incorporated the following in your practices, so forgive me if my suggestion is redundant, but perhaps the best practice is to run suicide sprints from foul line to foul line with short recovery time between sprints. As your athletes become more fit they will be able to recover from the sprints more quickly and they will be able to perform more of these sprints per workout. I have seen this type of workout used successfully both in basketball as well as soccer. You will be able to see which of your athletes is more fit. The least fit will not be able to perform as many sprints as the more fit athletes. An athlete with a higher VO2 max is not necessarily more fit than an athlete with a lower VO2 max. Quickness and short sprint speed likewise are not related to VO2 max. HR monitor is likewise not a very good tool to use because the sprints are to short. Probably the best training tool you can have is a good stop watch to see how long it takes your athletes to complete their sprints and more importantly how long it takes them to recover for the next set of sprints. Ralph Giarnella MD Southington Ct USA --- jwe4240 wrote: > First of all thanks for the responses. I am > currently just looking > at using VO2 data as one method of looking at and > monitoring > fitness. I am currently working with basketball > players and have > equipment that monitors their HR throughout all of > their training. > There are a few athletes who are lagging behind > conditioning wise > and I am just batting around ideas to spice up > conditioning. I am > just looking for a different way to break down data > and also other > ways to quantify their current conditioning levels. > I have been > doing different length intervals with all athletes > for years, both > on a bike and treadmill, after reading some posts > about interval > work I decided to look into it and saw alot on VO2. > My philosophy > has always been to get the most (physiologically) > out of my athletes > and put them on the court/field at 100% of their > natural ability. I > figure if an athlete has a physiological limit of 60 > ml/kg min and > they are currently at 50....they are not at their > full ability or > efficiency? Just the thought process in my > head...it may be totally > off base, please comment and let me know what > opinions are out > their. Hopefully this all makes sense....I tend to > ramble..so sorry > if that is the case. > > Edmonds > Greenville, SC > > > > > > > > > > > > > In a message dated 10/3/2007 5:46:38 AM Central > > > Daylight Time, > > > jon_haddan@... writes: > > > > > > Jack s has a couple of books out that > > > estimate > > > VO2Max based on race performance at various > > > distances. > > > I believe he uses the term VDOT. My > recollection is > > > that people think his estimates come very close > to > > > test results. > > > > > > > > > *** > > > Jon is correct about Jack s and his > approach > > > to running efficiency and > > > V02max, and his tables consider both in offering > > > performance projections > > > over various distances. At one point s > was > > > so confident in the accuracy > > > of his tables that he considered proposing that > > > athletes could 'qualify' for > > > the NCAA 10K on the basis of their time > projection > > > on his vDOT chart. Jack > > > felt that most collegiate athletes run few > truly > > > competitive 10K's during the > > > course of a regular season. > > > > > > His original tables, which are quite extensive, > > > appeared in his book, Oxygen > > > Power. > > > > > > Ken Jakalski > > > Lisle High School > > > Lisle, Illinois USA > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 4, 2007 Report Share Posted October 4, 2007 Hey guys! nice to hear everyone gets some free time to chat. I still don't consider vo2 max to be that critical for basketball. I have never read anything that correlates vo2 max to basketball conditioning and definitely not performance criteria. Doug Fairbanks ton, SC ===================== To: Supertraining@...: jwe4240@...: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 06:05:29 -0700Subject: Re: VO2 estimates I could do that if I had cushy equipment like you do!!!! :>) I am not actually testing a true max though, just estimating. I agree that that would be beneficial. I am more so trying to correlate VO2 to HR so I can veiw HR data and correlate to VO2. The problem I have there is that as you become more " trained " your VO2 should go up? But your max HR should go down? So is it feasable to try to compare these values on D1 athletes who should be trained?? Totally random drawn out question.....but that is how I think. All in all, I have a really expensive set of HR monitors that record every second of data and I can view on my computer. Now I am trying to figure out exactly how to get the most out of that data?? That may be a totally different thread all together....God Bless! EdmondsGreenville, SC USA============================JEREMIAH J JACOBS wrote:,if you are actually testing VO2max's, I think it could be a great asset fortraining your athlete's. Particularly b-ball, soccer and other sports thatrequire more running. Realizing that b-ball is more of an anaerobic sport,there is still an aerobic quality that is important to develop as well asother valuable data that can be collected from the test. That being said,interval training is highly important in increasing VO2 max. So testing willshow you if you are doing enough. An important value to take note of is eachathlete's RER (respiratory exchange ratio, which shows the amount of CO2that someone is exhaling relative to their O2 intake) (I know that you knowthis, its there for others). This number will basically show you anathlete's lactic acid tolerance. Most relatively fit people will have an RERof approximately 1.24, but well trained people can hit numbers closer to 1.5( one of my clients tapped-out at 1.47 today, and he was 45 years old). Ifyour athlete's are below 1.35, then it would show you that they couldcertainly benefit from more lactic acid tolerance training. So thenincluding things like 300 hundred yard shuttle pyramids ( I particularlylike them with dynamic flex drills instead of running to tax the legs more,though running is also important), circuit training for legs with 60-90secwork periods and 2 minute rest periods, and even some higher volume liftingwould be directly beneficial to their sport. If time allows for this type ofindividual testing, I think that the data is much more reliable than othertypes of testing, and much more informative. If you are seriouslyconsidering this and want to talk it out, feel free to give me a call. talk later and have a good one, J s MS, CSCSPersonal Performance/Health SpecialistAthlete Development Systems, LLCMt. Pleasant, SC(843) 860-9167jjacobs24@...===========================-----Original Message-----From: Supertraining [mailto:Supertraining ]On Behalf Of jwe4240Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2007 2:58 PMTo: Supertraining@...: Re: VO2 estimatesFirst of all thanks for the responses. I am currently just looking at using VO2 data as one method of looking at and monitoring fitness. I am currently working with basketball players and have equipment that monitors their HR throughout all of their training. There are a few athletes who are lagging behind conditioning wise and I am just batting around ideas to spice up conditioning. I am just looking for a different way to break down data and also other ways to quantify their current conditioning levels. I have been doing different length intervals with all athletes for years, both on a bike and treadmill, after reading some posts about interval work I decided to look into it and saw alot on VO2. My philosophy has always been to get the most (physiologically) out of my athletes and put them on the court/field at 100% of their natural ability. I figure if an athlete has a physiological limit of 60 ml/kg min and they are currently at 50....they are not at their full ability or efficiency? Just the thought process in my head...it may be totally off base, please comment and let me know what opinions are out their. Hopefully this all makes sense....I tend to ramble..so sorry if that is the case. EdmondsGreenville, SC>> Coach, I understand the value of VO2max as a research> tool and I understand that it may be beneficial it> trying to sort out elite athletes from other less> talented athletes when trying to build an elite team,> however I am at somewhat at a loss in trying the> understand how knowing an individuals VO2 max is of> any utility for a coach at lower levels of> competition.> > There is a much more to success of an athlete than VO2> max. Granted an individual with a genetically limited> VO2 max of 45 will not likely be able to compete with> an individual with a genetically gifted 65 VO2 max all> other things being equal, however just having a high> VO2 max does not guarantee success and there is a> limit has to how much training can increase VO2 max. > Training can only help an individual reach their> generic potential. > > As a coach perhaps you can answer these questions. > > Ralph Giarnella MD > Southington Ct USA ========================== Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 4, 2007 Report Share Posted October 4, 2007 Hi Ralph in your post you wrote " You have probably already incorporated the following in your practices, so forgive me if my suggestion is redundant, but perhaps the best practice is to run suicide sprints from foul line to foul line with short recovery time between sprints. As your athletes become more fit they will be able to recover from the sprints more quickly and they will be able to perform more of these sprints per workout. I have seen this type of workout used successfully both in basketball as well as soccer. " **** A standard beep (bleep) test seems to be what you are describing. This is a useful test to see the capacity of the athletes. (for those unfamiliar) the athletes complete a 20 meter sprint timed to coordinate with a pre recorded beep signal (available on CD, MP3m tape). The beep intervals decrease over time making the athlete work harder and harder to stay with the beep as they fatigue. Fitness levels can be correlated against these test ad you can observe the athletes heart rate over the course of the conditioning programme each time you test. You could also correlate the heart rate to game time heart rate. (assuming that is that the heart rate is a useful measure in basketball). Best Regards Nick Tatalias Johannesburg South Africa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 6, 2007 Report Share Posted October 6, 2007 hhmm...well, I don't know if the HR VO2 correlation will be very useful. Some things that could be useful are resting HR (if they are up then they are likely overtrained), training HR ranges (are you in the aerobic range of 60-85%, or are into Lactic threshold at more like 85-90%), and how quickly are they recovering (the faster the more fit). J s MS, CSCS Personal Performance/Health Specialist Athlete Development Systems, LLC Mt. Pleasant, SC jjacobs24@... Re: VO2 estimates I could do that if I had cushy equipment like you do!!!! :>) I am not actually testing a true max though, just estimating. I agree that that would be beneficial. I am more so trying to correlate VO2 to HR so I can veiw HR data and correlate to VO2. The problem I have there is that as you become more " trained " your VO2 should go up? But your max HR should go down? So is it feasable to try to compare these values on D1 athletes who should be trained?? Totally random drawn out question.....but that is how I think. All in all, I have a really expensive set of HR monitors that record every second of data and I can view on my computer. Now I am trying to figure out exactly how to get the most out of that data?? That may be a totally different thread all together.... God Bless! Edmonds Greenville, SC USA ============================ JEREMIAH J JACOBS <jjacobs24hotmail (DOT) <mailto:jjacobs24%40hotmail.com> com> wrote: , if you are actually testing VO2max's, I think it could be a great asset for training your athlete's. Particularly b-ball, soccer and other sports that require more running. Realizing that b-ball is more of an anaerobic sport, there is still an aerobic quality that is important to develop as well as other valuable data that can be collected from the test. That being said, interval training is highly important in increasing VO2 max. So testing will show you if you are doing enough. An important value to take note of is each athlete's RER (respiratory exchange ratio, which shows the amount of CO2 that someone is exhaling relative to their O2 intake) (I know that you know this, its there for others). This number will basically show you an athlete's lactic acid tolerance. Most relatively fit people will have an RER of approximately 1.24, but well trained people can hit numbers closer to 1.5 ( one of my clients tapped-out at 1.47 today, and he was 45 years old). If your athlete's are below 1.35, then it would show you that they could certainly benefit from more lactic acid tolerance training. So then including things like 300 hundred yard shuttle pyramids ( I particularly like them with dynamic flex drills instead of running to tax the legs more, though running is also important), circuit training for legs with 60-90sec work periods and 2 minute rest periods, and even some higher volume lifting would be directly beneficial to their sport. If time allows for this type of individual testing, I think that the data is much more reliable than other types of testing, and much more informative. If you are seriously considering this and want to talk it out, feel free to give me a call. talk later and have a good one, J s MS, CSCS Personal Performance/Health Specialist Athlete Development Systems, LLC Mt. Pleasant, SC jjacobs24hotmail (DOT) <mailto:jjacobs24%40hotmail.com> com =========================== Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 6, 2007 Report Share Posted October 6, 2007 Good point . I agree that heart rate training ranges etc,. are more valuable to a strength coach / trainers than vo2 max. I have discussed this with numerous collegues that are Phd's in exercise science who think it is useless for performance unless the athlete is a triathlete or marathoner. Also they feel it is more a test to show potential not a test to guide or help change or improve performance. Just more thoughts\. Doug Fairbanks ton, SC -------------------------- To: Supertraining@...: jjacobs24@...: Sat, 6 Oct 2007 11:04:11 -0400Subject: Re: VO2 estimates hhmm...well, I don't know if the HR VO2 correlation will be very useful.Some things that could be useful are resting HR (if they are up then theyare likely overtrained), training HR ranges (are you in the aerobic range of60-85%, or are into Lactic threshold at more like 85-90%), and how quicklyare they recovering (the faster the more fit). J s MS, CSCSPersonal Performance/Health SpecialistAthlete Development Systems, LLCMt. Pleasant, SC(843) 860-9167jjacobs24@...-----Original Message-----From: Supertraining [mailto:Supertraining ]On Behalf Of EdmondsSent: Thursday, October 04, 2007 9:05 AMTo: Supertraining@...: Re: VO2 estimatesI could do that if I had cushy equipment like you do!!!! :>) I am notactually testing a true max though, just estimating. I agree that that wouldbe beneficial. I am more so trying to correlate VO2 to HR so I can veiw HRdata and correlate to VO2. The problem I have there is that as you becomemore " trained " your VO2 should go up? But your max HR should go down? So isit feasable to try to compare these values on D1 athletes who should betrained?? Totally random drawn out question.....but that is how I think. Allin all, I have a really expensive set of HR monitors that record everysecond of data and I can view on my computer. Now I am trying to figure outexactly how to get the most out of that data?? That may be a totallydifferent thread all together....God Bless! EdmondsGreenville, SC USA============================JEREMIAH J JACOBS <jjacobs24hotmail (DOT) <mailto:jjacobs24%40hotmail.com> com>wrote:,if you are actually testing VO2max's, I think it could be a great asset fortraining your athlete's. Particularly b-ball, soccer and other sports thatrequire more running. Realizing that b-ball is more of an anaerobic sport,there is still an aerobic quality that is important to develop as well asother valuable data that can be collected from the test. That being said,interval training is highly important in increasing VO2 max. So testing willshow you if you are doing enough. An important value to take note of is eachathlete's RER (respiratory exchange ratio, which shows the amount of CO2that someone is exhaling relative to their O2 intake) (I know that you knowthis, its there for others). This number will basically show you anathlete's lactic acid tolerance. Most relatively fit people will have an RERof approximately 1.24, but well trained people can hit numbers closer to 1.5( one of my clients tapped-out at 1.47 today, and he was 45 years old). Ifyour athlete's are below 1.35, then it would show you that they couldcertainly benefit from more lactic acid tolerance training. So thenincluding things like 300 hundred yard shuttle pyramids ( I particularlylike them with dynamic flex drills instead of running to tax the legs more,though running is also important), circuit training for legs with 60-90secwork periods and 2 minute rest periods, and even some higher volume liftingwould be directly beneficial to their sport. If time allows for this type ofindividual testing, I think that the data is much more reliable than othertypes of testing, and much more informative. If you are seriouslyconsidering this and want to talk it out, feel free to give me a call. talk later and have a good one, J s MS, CSCSPersonal Performance/Health SpecialistAthlete Development Systems, LLCMt. Pleasant, SCjjacobs24hotmail (DOT) <mailto:jjacobs24%40hotmail.com> com=========================== Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 6, 2007 Report Share Posted October 6, 2007 Good point . I agree that heart rate training ranges etc,. are more valuable to a strength coach / trainers than vo2 max. I have discussed this with numerous collegues that are Phd's in exercise science who think it is useless for performance unless the athlete is a triathlete or marathoner. Also they feel it is more a test to show potential not a test to guide or help change or improve performance. Just more thoughts\. Doug Fairbanks ton, SC -------------------------- To: Supertraining@...: jjacobs24@...: Sat, 6 Oct 2007 11:04:11 -0400Subject: Re: VO2 estimates hhmm...well, I don't know if the HR VO2 correlation will be very useful.Some things that could be useful are resting HR (if they are up then theyare likely overtrained), training HR ranges (are you in the aerobic range of60-85%, or are into Lactic threshold at more like 85-90%), and how quicklyare they recovering (the faster the more fit). J s MS, CSCSPersonal Performance/Health SpecialistAthlete Development Systems, LLCMt. Pleasant, SC(843) 860-9167jjacobs24@...-----Original Message-----From: Supertraining [mailto:Supertraining ]On Behalf Of EdmondsSent: Thursday, October 04, 2007 9:05 AMTo: Supertraining@...: Re: VO2 estimatesI could do that if I had cushy equipment like you do!!!! :>) I am notactually testing a true max though, just estimating. I agree that that wouldbe beneficial. I am more so trying to correlate VO2 to HR so I can veiw HRdata and correlate to VO2. The problem I have there is that as you becomemore " trained " your VO2 should go up? But your max HR should go down? So isit feasable to try to compare these values on D1 athletes who should betrained?? Totally random drawn out question.....but that is how I think. Allin all, I have a really expensive set of HR monitors that record everysecond of data and I can view on my computer. Now I am trying to figure outexactly how to get the most out of that data?? That may be a totallydifferent thread all together....God Bless! EdmondsGreenville, SC USA============================JEREMIAH J JACOBS <jjacobs24hotmail (DOT) <mailto:jjacobs24%40hotmail.com> com>wrote:,if you are actually testing VO2max's, I think it could be a great asset fortraining your athlete's. Particularly b-ball, soccer and other sports thatrequire more running. Realizing that b-ball is more of an anaerobic sport,there is still an aerobic quality that is important to develop as well asother valuable data that can be collected from the test. That being said,interval training is highly important in increasing VO2 max. So testing willshow you if you are doing enough. An important value to take note of is eachathlete's RER (respiratory exchange ratio, which shows the amount of CO2that someone is exhaling relative to their O2 intake) (I know that you knowthis, its there for others). This number will basically show you anathlete's lactic acid tolerance. Most relatively fit people will have an RERof approximately 1.24, but well trained people can hit numbers closer to 1.5( one of my clients tapped-out at 1.47 today, and he was 45 years old). Ifyour athlete's are below 1.35, then it would show you that they couldcertainly benefit from more lactic acid tolerance training. So thenincluding things like 300 hundred yard shuttle pyramids ( I particularlylike them with dynamic flex drills instead of running to tax the legs more,though running is also important), circuit training for legs with 60-90secwork periods and 2 minute rest periods, and even some higher volume liftingwould be directly beneficial to their sport. If time allows for this type ofindividual testing, I think that the data is much more reliable than othertypes of testing, and much more informative. If you are seriouslyconsidering this and want to talk it out, feel free to give me a call. talk later and have a good one, J s MS, CSCSPersonal Performance/Health SpecialistAthlete Development Systems, LLCMt. Pleasant, SCjjacobs24hotmail (DOT) <mailto:jjacobs24%40hotmail.com> com=========================== Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 6, 2007 Report Share Posted October 6, 2007 Todd, Great point! I guess we would need to have them tested to find out. Any thoughts on how weight training may improve vo2, more specifically a bike vo2 test? Doug Fairbanks ton, SC ========================= To: Supertraining@...: regnalt@...: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 13:28:54 -0600Subject: Re: VO2 estimates Doug,I'd tend to agree with you, but maybe the fast-breaking Phoenix Suns andhigh altitude Nuggets are the exception! Todd Langer, MScBoulder, CO -----Original Message-----From: Supertraining [mailto:Supertraining ]On Behalf Of douglas fairbanksSent: Thursday, October 04, 2007 12:57 PMTo: supertraining@...: Re: VO2 estimatesHey guys! nice to hear everyone gets some free time to chat. I still don'tconsider vo2 max to be that critical for basketball. I have never readanything that correlates vo2 max to basketball conditioning and definitelynot performance criteria.Doug Fairbankston, =================================== Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 6, 2007 Report Share Posted October 6, 2007 Ralph. Thank you for this link on vo2, answers all my questions and validated my thoughts. That should eliminate the denver nuggets from having high vo2's or else they have recruited genetically gifted basketball players for that altitude. Ralph, what do you know about Cenegenics Medical Institute and hormone replacement therapy? Doug Fairbanks ton,SC ====================== To: Supertraining@...: ragiarn@...: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 11:47:45 -0700Subject: Re: Re: VO2 estimates VO2 max is probably not a very good gauge forbasketball fitness. Basketball is a series of shortsprints with relatively long recovery times betweensprints. Lactate tolerance is not even importantsince the sprints are short enough so that there islittle or no lactate build and the time betweensprints is long enough to prevent lactate build up.As I am sure you know, a basketball court is 94 feetin length (approx 30 meters) and the distance fromfoul line to foul line is 56 feet (approx 18 meters). Most of the running your players have to do is foulline to foul line. The following url will bring you to a chart of VO2 maxvalues for different sports. You will notice thatbaskeball VO2max values are in the same range asbaseball, football, gymnastics and significantly lowerthan running, bicycling, and rowing.http://www.sport-fitness-advisor.com/VO2max.htmlThe type of fitness will depend on the type ofbasketball you plan running. Is it a run and gun typebasketball or is it slow down type basketball. I amnot a basketball coach nor have I ever been, howeverwhat I have learned over the years is that goodcoach's try to set up a game plan base on the strengthand weaknesses of the they athletes he has. Even if you plan to have a run and gun type offense inthe hopes of running the other teams off the courtyour athletes need to sprint approximately 20 meterson each possession. You have probably already incorporated the followingin your practices, so forgive me if my suggestion isredundant, but perhaps the best practice is to runsuicide sprints from foul line to foul line with shortrecovery time between sprints. As your athletesbecome more fit they will be able to recover from thesprints more quickly and they will be able to performmore of these sprints per workout. I have seen thistype of workout used successfully both in basketballas well as soccer. You will be able to see which of your athletes is morefit. The least fit will not be able to perform asmany sprints as the more fit athletes. An athlete with a higher VO2 max is not necessarilymore fit than an athlete with a lower VO2 max. Quickness and short sprint speed likewise are notrelated to VO2 max. HR monitor is likewise not a very good tool to usebecause the sprints are to short. Probably the besttraining tool you can have is a good stop watch to seehow long it takes your athletes to complete theirsprints and more importantly how long it takes them torecover for the next set of sprints.Ralph Giarnella MD Southington Ct USA --- jwe4240 wrote:> First of all thanks for the responses. I am> currently just looking> at using VO2 data as one method of looking at and> monitoring> fitness. I am currently working with basketball> players and have> equipment that monitors their HR throughout all of> their training.> There are a few athletes who are lagging behind> conditioning wise> and I am just batting around ideas to spice up> conditioning. I am> just looking for a different way to break down data> and also other> ways to quantify their current conditioning levels. > I have been> doing different length intervals with all athletes> for years, both> on a bike and treadmill, after reading some posts> about interval> work I decided to look into it and saw alot on VO2. > My philosophy> has always been to get the most (physiologically)> out of my athletes> and put them on the court/field at 100% of their> natural ability. I> figure if an athlete has a physiological limit of 60> ml/kg min and> they are currently at 50....they are not at their> full ability or> efficiency? Just the thought process in my> head...it may be totally> off base, please comment and let me know what> opinions are out> their. Hopefully this all makes sense....I tend to> ramble..so sorry> if that is the case.> > Edmonds> Greenville, SC> > > > > > >> > >> > > In a message dated 10/3/2007 5:46:38 AM Central> > > Daylight Time,> > > jon_haddan@... writes:> > >> > > Jack s has a couple of books out that> > > estimate> > > VO2Max based on race performance at various> > > distances.> > > I believe he uses the term VDOT. My > recollection is> > > that people think his estimates come very close> to> > > test results.> > >> > >> > > ***> > > Jon is correct about Jack s and his> approach> > > to running efficiency and> > > V02max, and his tables consider both in offering> > > performance projections> > > over various distances. At one point s> was> > > so confident in the accuracy> > > of his tables that he considered proposing that> > > athletes could 'qualify' for> > > the NCAA 10K on the basis of their time > projection> > > on his vDOT chart. Jack> > > felt that most collegiate athletes run few> truly> > > competitive 10K's during the> > > course of a regular season.> > >> > > His original tables, which are quite extensive,> > > appeared in his book, Oxygen> > > Power.> > >> > > Ken Jakalski> > > Lisle High School> > > Lisle, Illinois USA> > >> > >> >> > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 7, 2007 Report Share Posted October 7, 2007 Hello Doug, Here are some thoughts on vo2 characteristics for high-intensity running sports like basketball. In the following study, Tomlin and Wenger have reviewed the importance of vo2 to such sports. Sports Med. 2001;31(1):1-11. The relationship between aerobic fitness and recovery from high intensity intermittent exercise. Tomlin DL, Wenger HA. http://tinyurl.com/2hej3a They conclude: " In summary, the literature suggests that aerobic fitness enhances recovery from high intensity intermittent exercise through increased aerobic response, improved lactate removal and enhanced PCr regeneration. " The unknown variable is how much aerobic fitness is required and can it be achieved without endangering high-intensity and anaerobic power. Here is another way of looking at vo2 in team sports. Even though we know that vo2max does not correlate well with performance in a number of athletic endeavours, probably because some individuals are able to perform at a greater percentage of their vo2; even so, 80% of 70 (vo2m) is still better than 90% of 60 (vo2m) if you follow that. So, even though you might not want to use vo2 as a performance measure for selecting individual players -- in the draft for example - - from a team perspective, raising vo2 overall could result in team performance improvements, particularly in the last quarter of a game when things start to get tough. In addition, it could allow your players to train harder at the high-intensity intervals and shuttles etc. In another study, football (soccer) players improved their performance substantially as a team after an aerobic conditioning program. Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2001 Nov;33(11):1925-31. Aerobic endurance training improves soccer performance. Helgerud J, Engen LC, Wisloff U, Hoff J. Just some ideas for consideration. Gympie, Australia > > Good point . I agree that heart rate training ranges etc,. are more valuable to a strength coach / trainers than vo2 max. I have discussed this with numerous collegues that are Phd's in exercise science who think it is useless for performance unless the athlete is a triathlete or marathoner. Also they feel it is more a test to show potential not a test to guide or help change or improve performance. Just more thoughts\. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 7, 2007 Report Share Posted October 7, 2007 YoYo test is popular in soccer. Similar to the standard shuttle, with modifications. Described here: http://www.topendsports.com/testing/tests/yo-yo-intermittent.htm Gympie, Australia > > Hi Ralph > > in your post you wrote > " You have probably already incorporated the following in your practices, so > forgive me if my suggestion is redundant, but perhaps the best practice is > to run suicide sprints from foul line to foul line with short recovery time > between sprints. As your athletes become more fit they will be able to > recover from the sprints more quickly and they will be able to perform more > of these sprints per workout. I have seen this type of workout used > successfully both in basketball as well as soccer. " > > **** > A standard beep (bleep) test seems to be what you are describing. This > is a useful test to see the capacity of the athletes. (for those > unfamiliar) the athletes complete a 20 meter sprint timed to coordinate with > a pre recorded beep signal (available on CD, MP3m tape). The beep intervals > decrease over time making the athlete work harder and harder to stay with > the beep as they fatigue. Fitness levels can be correlated against these > test ad you can observe the athletes heart rate over the course of the > conditioning programme each time you test. You could also correlate the > heart rate to game time heart rate. (assuming that is that the heart rate > is a useful measure in basketball). > > Best Regards > Nick Tatalias > Johannesburg > South Africa > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 8, 2007 Report Share Posted October 8, 2007 That is a good article. I agree with what you said here. I admit that while there shouldn't be a problem with basketball players and lactic acid buildup on short sprint, I feel that at least at my level, this is a problem. I hope I stated that correctly. I feel that most of my athletes that don't seem to be in " good conditioning " are merely not able to push through discomfort to a more physiological exhaustion. That last article that paraphrased seems very relevant. I am not using VO2 as a training aid, it is more of a curiosity of mine, but if that study is in fact true, if we can train at a higher intensities for longer at greater a VO2, then to me it makes sense that it will increase the number of 100% intensity sprints overall (just an arbitrary %). If my athlete can play 40 minutes of a game and not drop their intensity significantly until minute 38 and your athlete starts to drop at min 34, then there should be an advantage for my athlete right? Even though it may only be a half step, but that half step in basketball can be the difference between an open look and a forced shot. Now whether that advantage (physiologically) transfers into points on the scoreboard is another discussion altogether. Doug, As for how we are using the HR monitors: I use them for every conditioning session as well as have them where them during individuals. Starting this week we will wear them during team workouts as well. I am hopeful to wear them in an exhibition game, but that is a longshot. They record every second they have them on. I look mostly at what percentage of HR they are working at, so i try to modify workout via rest periods and such to keep their HR where I want it. I agree that each person is different, but the idea would be to eventually get HR watches to go along with these monitors and set them so that it will beep when they are in or out of their range. Example....shuttle run: 2 athletes can run the shuttle but both recover at different paces, if athlete 1 is at full recovery at 1 min and athlete 2 is 3 minutes for recovery, then we can have each athlete start their next run when they drop to a certaing HR (set individually) so that we are working them correctly. Right now we set arbitrary rest intervals that should be close for everyone, but arent exact. 2:30 minutes rest may be way to much for some, but not quite enough for others. I do like the idea that VO2 measures potential: I just had a girl come in and I put here through the bruce protocol and here projected VO2 was alot higher than I thought it would be. With the projected thinking, we have alot of room to get her more fit, so that she can perform at a higher intensity for longer. Right now she cant do multiple sprints at a moderate speed for any length of time without her HR jumping up to over 200. Once again I hope this last paragraph makes sense.....I know what Im talking about but sometime I dont write that clearly. I find this discussion to be very interesting so lets keep if going! Edmonds Greenville SC USA ===================== sregor99 wrote: Hello Doug, Here are some thoughts on vo2 characteristics for high-intensity running sports like basketball. In the following study, Tomlin and Wenger have reviewed the importance of vo2 to such sports. Sports Med. 2001;31(1):1-11. The relationship between aerobic fitness and recovery from high intensity intermittent exercise. Tomlin DL, Wenger HA. http://tinyurl.com/2hej3a They conclude: " In summary, the literature suggests that aerobic fitness enhances recovery from high intensity intermittent exercise through increased aerobic response, improved lactate removal and enhanced PCr regeneration. " The unknown variable is how much aerobic fitness is required and can it be achieved without endangering high-intensity and anaerobic power. Here is another way of looking at vo2 in team sports. Even though we know that vo2max does not correlate well with performance in a number of athletic endeavours, probably because some individuals are able to perform at a greater percentage of their vo2; even so, 80% of 70 (vo2m) is still better than 90% of 60 (vo2m) if you follow that. So, even though you might not want to use vo2 as a performance measure for selecting individual players -- in the draft for example - - from a team perspective, raising vo2 overall could result in team performance improvements, particularly in the last quarter of a game when things start to get tough. In addition, it could allow your players to train harder at the high-intensity intervals and shuttles etc. In another study, football (soccer) players improved their performance substantially as a team after an aerobic conditioning program. Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2001 Nov;33(11):1925-31. Aerobic endurance training improves soccer performance. Helgerud J, Engen LC, Wisloff U, Hoff J. Just some ideas for consideration. Gympie, Australia > > Good point . I agree that heart rate training ranges etc,. are more valuable to a strength coach / trainers than vo2 max. I have discussed this with numerous collegues that are Phd's in exercise science who think it is useless for performance unless the athlete is a triathlete or marathoner. Also they feel it is more a test to show potential not a test to guide or help change or improve performance. Just more thoughts\. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 8, 2007 Report Share Posted October 8, 2007 Ralph, you are correct, it does depend on the type of game you play. for a slow game with few sprints, Lactate threshold is of little use. However, many coaches would prefer to be able to use (at least when needed) a fast paced game, which does require more lactic acid tolerance. The ability to continue to sprint, jump, and change direction at the end of the game can be the difference between a win and a loss. So even if your isn't a run and gun team, they need to be able to defend one and still have fresh enough legs at the end of the game to be athletic. so for this reason lactic acid tolerance should be an intergral part of basketball conditioning. Most of our energy as strength coaches for basketball should be spent developing agility, vertical jump, and then lactic acid tolerance. Also, though O2 consumption is not of value, HR does not just reflect O2 consumption. It also correlates with CO2 levels. For proof of this go to a basketball court and run as fast as you can from baseline to the opposite foul line and back 6 times. this should take less than 60 seconds if you are reasonably fit. then check your heart rate, you will note a marked increase (most likely higher than your training Heart rate range). So when doing the fitness portion of your training (which I'm sure is what was referring to in his original post), Heart rate can be a valuable tool for gauging both how hard is athletes are working and how well they are recovering. If they are pushing themselves hard, they should be above their aerobic training heart rate range, and if they are fit then their heart rate should drop quickly during rest. J s, MS, CSCS, USAW, NSCA-CPT Athlete Development Systems, LLC Mount Pleasant, SC jjacobs24@... ============================= Supertraining@...: ragiarn@...: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 11:47:45 -0700Subject: Re: Re: VO2 estimatesVO2 max is probably not a very good gauge forbasketball fitness. Basketball is a series of shortsprints with relatively long recovery times betweensprints. Lactate tolerance is not even importantsince the sprints are short enough so that there islittle or no lactate build and the time betweensprints is long enough to prevent lactate build up.As I am sure you know, a basketball court is 94 feetin length (approx 30 meters) and the distance fromfoul line to foul line is 56 feet (approx 18 meters). Most of the running your players have to do is foulline to foul line. The following url will bring you to a chart of VO2 maxvalues for different sports. You will notice thatbaskeball VO2max values are in the same range asbaseball, football, gymnastics and significantly lowerthan running, bicycling, and rowing.http://www.sport-fitness-advisor.com/VO2max.htmlThe type of fitness will depend on the type ofbasketball you plan running. Is it a run and gun typebasketball or is it slow down type basketball. I amnot a basketball coach nor have I ever been, howeverwhat I have learned over the years is that goodcoach's try to set up a game plan base on the strengthand weaknesses of the they athletes he has. Even if you plan to have a run and gun type offense inthe hopes of running the other teams off the courtyour athletes need to sprint approximately 20 meterson each possession. You have probably already incorporated the followingin your practices, so forgive me if my suggestion isredundant, but perhaps the best practice is to runsuicide sprints from foul line to foul line with shortrecovery time between sprints. As your athletesbecome more fit they will be able to recover from thesprints more quickly and they will be able to performmore of these sprints per workout. I have seen thistype of workout used successfully both in basketballas well as soccer. You will be able to see which of your athletes is morefit. The least fit will not be able to perform asmany sprints as the more fit athletes. An athlete with a higher VO2 max is not necessarilymore fit than an athlete with a lower VO2 max. Quickness and short sprint speed likewise are notrelated to VO2 max. HR monitor is likewise not a very good tool to usebecause the sprints are to short. Probably the besttraining tool you can have is a good stop watch to seehow long it takes your athletes to complete theirsprints and more importantly how long it takes them torecover for the next set of sprints.Ralph Giarnella MD Southington Ct USA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 8, 2007 Report Share Posted October 8, 2007 I think this is a great discussion as well. One of the best that I've seen here in a while. I think one thing that you have to watch out for is that to much aerobic training will reduce power output. However, interval training (particularly of the 60-120 sec variety) has been shown to improve VO2max. This would typically be some of the longest drills done in Basketball Conditioning. I personally think that more of this should be included in Basketball conditioning. If you think back to our CofC days, we did 300 yard shuttle pyramids with those guys a lot (almost daily) and they were fast, could jump through the roof, were mentally tough, never got tired, and could run with anyone that we played. that was by far the most fit team that I have ever had the priviledge to work with. and that includes my time at Tennessee. J s, MS, CSCS, USAW, NSCA-CPT Athlete Development Systems, LLC Mount Pleasant, SC jjacobs24@... ============================== To: Supertraining@...: jwe4240@...: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 05:21:37 -0700Subject: Re: VO2 estimates That is a good article. I agree with what you said here. I admit that while there shouldn't be a problem with basketball players and lactic acid buildup on short sprint, I feel that at least at my level, this is a problem. I hope I stated that correctly. I feel that most of my athletes that don't seem to be in " good conditioning " are merely not able to push through discomfort to a more physiological exhaustion. That last article that paraphrased seems very relevant. I am not using VO2 as a training aid, it is more of a curiosity of mine, but if that study is in fact true, if we can train at a higher intensities for longer at greater a VO2, then to me it makes sense that it will increase the number of 100% intensity sprints overall (just an arbitrary %). If my athlete can play 40 minutes of a game and not drop their intensity significantly until minute 38 and your athlete starts to drop at min 34, then there should be an advantage for my athlete right? Eventhough it may only be a half step, but that half step in basketball can be the difference between an open look and a forced shot. Now whether that advantage (physiologically) transfers into points on the scoreboard is another discussion altogether. Doug,As for how we are using the HR monitors:I use them for every conditioning session as well as have them where them during individuals.Starting this week we will wear them during team workouts as well. I am hopeful to wear them in an exhibition game, but that is a longshot.They record every second they have them on. I look mostly at what percentage of HR they are working at, so i try to modify workout via rest periods and such to keep their HR where I want it. I agree that each person is different, but the idea would be to eventually get HR watches to go along with these monitors and set them so that it will beep when they are in or out of their range. Example....shuttle run: 2 athletes can run the shuttle but both recover at different paces, if athlete 1 is at full recovery at 1 min and athlete 2 is 3 minutes for recovery, then we can have each athlete start their next run when they drop to a certaing HR (set individually) so that we are working them correctly. Right now we set arbitrary rest intervals that should be close for everyone, but arent exact. 2:30 minutes rest may be way to much for some, but not quite enough for others.I do like the idea that VO2 measures potential: I just had a girl come in and I put here through the bruce protocol and here projected VO2 was alot higher than I thought it would be. With the projected thinking, we have alot of room to get her more fit, so that she can perform at a higher intensity for longer. Right now she cant do multiple sprints at a moderate speed for any length of time without her HR jumping up to over 200. Once again I hope this last paragraph makes sense.....I know what Im talking about but sometime I dont write that clearly. I find this discussion to be very interesting so lets keep if going! EdmondsGreenville SC USA===================== sregor99 wrote:Hello Doug,Here are some thoughts on vo2 characteristics for high-intensity running sports like basketball. In the following study, Tomlin and Wenger have reviewed the importance of vo2 to such sports.Sports Med. 2001;31(1):1-11. The relationship between aerobic fitness and recovery from high intensity intermittent exercise. Tomlin DL, Wenger HA. http://tinyurl.com/2hej3aThey conclude: " In summary, the literature suggests that aerobic fitness enhances recovery from high intensity intermittent exercise through increased aerobic response, improved lactate removal and enhanced PCr regeneration. " The unknown variable is how much aerobic fitness is required and can it be achieved without endangering high-intensity and anaerobic power.Here is another way of looking at vo2 in team sports. Even though we know that vo2max does not correlate well with performance in a number of athletic endeavours, probably because some individuals are able to perform at a greater percentage of their vo2; even so, 80% of 70 (vo2m) is still better than 90% of 60 (vo2m) if you follow that.So, even though you might not want to use vo2 as a performance measure for selecting individual players -- in the draft for example -- from a team perspective, raising vo2 overall could result in team performance improvements, particularly in the last quarter of a game when things start to get tough. In addition, it could allow your players to train harder at the high-intensity intervals and shuttles etc.In another study, football (soccer) players improved their performance substantially as a team after an aerobic conditioning program.Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2001 Nov;33(11):1925-31. Aerobic endurance training improves soccer performance. Helgerud J, Engen LC, Wisloff U, Hoff J.Just some ideas for consideration. Gympie, Australia>> Good point . I agree that heart rate training ranges etc,. are more valuable to a strength coach / trainers than vo2 max. I have discussed this with numerous collegues that are Phd's in exercise science who think it is useless for performance unless the athlete is a triathlete or marathoner. Also they feel it is more a test to show potential not a test to guide or help change or improve performance. Just more thoughts\. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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