Re: Biomechanics vs PMOT Examination/training of Posture

[Guest guest]

Hi !

I'm confused by some of your insights in your last post:

We see the human spine born with a C-shape posture. The same

posture that quadrupeds possess. We see that under the influence of

the effect of gravity it attempts to grow into the characteristic

upright S-shape posture.

First, do you mean humans are born with a spine in a C-shaped posture? That

line was confusing as written. Second, are you suggesting that the spine

grows into a characteristic S-shape because of gravity?

We see that the Evolution science attributes our unique ability of

being an upright bipedal creature is due to our adapting the S-shape

from our predecessor the Ape and their C-shape spine.

I seem to recall there are at least ten or more theories regarding how and

why bipedalism evolved in humans. In discussions on how the ancestors of

humans started on their legs, scientists are divided between the terrestrial

theory, (we became bipedal through a four-legged stage on the ground, and the

arboreal theory, (climbing and swinging through trees as potential precursors

for bipedalism).

Are you suggesting that the S-shape spine was the cause or effect of

bipedalism?

Ken Jakalski

Lisle HS

Lisle, Illinois

[Guest guest]

Scherger:

Biomechanics vs PMOT Examination/ training of Posture

We have been talking about Examination (also how to train) of Human

Spinal Posture from a biomechanics vs. PMOT view.

PMOT as in human ability to produce force for human movement is

increased by basic muscle hypertrophy through Progressive Muscle

Overload Training.

Chiappini:

Please can we call this strength training. Your term PMOT is your term and the

rest of us here would call it strength training.

scherger:

Biomechanics viewing proper posture and the mechanical advantage it

provides as being the key to improvement force for human movement.

To narrow down more specifically Spinal posture relative to PMOT or

Biomechanics I will begin with the White and Panjabi in their text

Clinical Biomechanics of the Spine with their statement the spine's

posture demonstrates Biomechanical Adaptation. The spine will adapt

a posture relative to effects applied to it.

We see the human spine born with a C-shape posture. The same

posture that quadrupeds possess. We see that under the influence of

the effect of gravity it attempts to grow into the characteristic

upright S-shape posture.

Chiappini:

We are born with a c shape spine due to our development in the womb (cramped

quarters) and a lack of muscular strength.

scherger:

We see in outer space that without the influencing effect of

gravity, the astronaut's spine adapts the simian C-shape.

Chiappini:

The spine adapts a c shape or simian shape as you put it, due to a loss of

muscle tone. The loss of muscle tone or strength is due to the lack of gravity

on the individual and the subsequent need of the muscles to aid in the

opposition of gravitational forces.

scherger:

We see it is characteristic as people age they loose the S-shape.

They become humped over.

Chiappini:

This is again due to a lack of muscle tone or strength and of course the

possible results of osteoporosis and soft tissue degeneration.

scherger:

The Greeks 4000 riddle of the Spinx asked this question. What walks

on four legs in the morning, two legs in the afternoon and 3 legs in

the evening and has only one voice? Who could answer it would

receive life, who could not would have life taken from them.

The answer? Man. As infant walking on all fours, in middle age

upright on two legs and as older person walking bent over with the

cane acting as the 3rd leg.

This is not some idle riddle. When studying human locomotion

relative to spinal adaptation it is characteristic to first see the

infant with C-spine, then trying to adapt the secondary cervical and

lumbar lordotic curves and then in later life seeing the human slump

back into the C-shape and will mimic the same locomotion

characteristics as the infant. .

Chiappini:

This is normal and related to strength and flexibility of the muscles of an

individual. Have you ever taken the time to watch an infant squat down to pick

something up. They use perfect form, erect posture with a deep squat. Unless

one is born with an abnormality this occurs naturally. Typically as one goes

through life the daily activities or hobbies of people lead to imbalances and

postural problems. Aging of course takes over eventually and a percentage of

the population develop a kyphotic posture due strength imbalances, loss of

strength, loss of flexibility, osteoporosis, and soft tissue degeneration. None

of what you have written is ground breaking info.

scherger:

We see that the Evolution science attributes our unique ability of

being an upright bipedal creature is due to our adapting the S-shape

from our predecessor the Ape and their C-shape spine.

For instance locomotion studies will define one as being either a

locomotion (human) machine or a postural maintenance (ape) machine

relative to quality of ones postural adaptation and the effect on

the hamstring muscle.

Proper adaptation of the S-shape posture appears to be the secret

behind the ability of humans to leverage upright posture and move

against the adverse effect of earth's gravity.

It appears that it also gives humans the ability to be upright and

work under control against forces that are in front of the body.

Such as push a grocery cart hit as in volleyball or push the other

fellow backwards in football.

So it appears Proper adaptation of the S-shape posture appears to be

the key to the human bodies musculoskeletal lever systems

effectiveness to jump, run and move forward against the adverse pull

of gravity or anterior force.

Chiappini:

Again none of what you are stating is ground breaking info.

scherger:

PMOT training does not address adaptation of the S-shape posture as

the key to physical ability. It does not try to define what is the

model of proper posture or how the posture of the optimal S-shape

model, as lever machine, produces superior upright bipedal abilities

or produces ability to push against an object to the anterior as in

football or pushing a grocery cart.

Chiappini:

I would hope that every strength coach who is worth anything would be offended

by this statement. Every person I work with I address their spinal posture. I

also know that we do not need to do a pelvic tilt to correct spinal posture.

We are all individuals and therefore we will differ slightly from what may be

ideal in your mind. I really have to question whether you have worked with

athletes or in the real world as opposed to your lab or studies. I have

witnessed many kyphotic postures that could produce an immense amount of force

in a pushing fashion.

scherger:

It only addresses muscle hypertrophy on any ones posture

(hunchbacked individual for instance) as to running faster, hitting

harder. It cannot tell you why hunchback bent over person cannot

hit in football or run.

Chiappini:

How can you make this statement? Everything a good strength coach programs

should cover increasing strength to creating balance and flexibility of an

athlete. This would encompass correcting or addressing a kyphotic posture if it

was present.

scherger:

Biomechanics addresses what is the optimal model of the S-shaped

spinal posture. How as lever machine it produces the superior

locomotion as in running. How it produces the optimal leverage for

pushing the guy in front of you backwards in football. How it gives

the football player the best vertical leaping ability or how it

leads to them when standing to stand at the minimal energy

expenditure so they are naturally better conditioned.

Chiappini:

Everything you stated above are factors of strength , flexibility and technique

or getting position on the other guy. Conditioning is a factor of training and

a person who is conditioned to play 4 quarters of football will be able to play

those quarters whether they have " your ideal " spine or not.

Scherger:

Biomechanical strengthening of the spine is not as PMOT issue, but a

biomechanical adaptation issue. Biomechanical or orthopedic

strength training that results in the enhancement, restoration and

preservation of proper S-shaped posture.

Chiappini:

This can be achieved with well designed strengthening and stretching programs.

scherger:

So you train the spine properly to adapt the secondary lumbar curves

for football for running so your athlete possesses under the skin

the optimal posture that produces the best mechanical advantage.

It appears to me the world of PMOT training does address the concept

of posture affecting performance. It cannot tell you how C-shape

spine produces poor locomotion or hitting ability in football

because it does not address mechanical advantage. It cannot tell you

how to train for adaptation of the S-shaped posture because training

for it is only muscle hypertrophy. It does not recognize there

exists an effect on earth that relative to gaining a S-shaped

posture that your body possesses a better mechanical advantage to

function against that effect.

It boils down to how does the PMOT mind vs. the Biomechanical mind

evaluate spinal posture. I have told you how the biomechanics

thinking evaluates spinal posture. Now I would like to hear not

only in addition to how I am wrong but a statement how the PMOT

thinkers evaluate spinal posture or do they at all? And if they do

or do not why?

Chiappini:

We address these issues constantly and yes we know that a healthy posture can

lead to better performance for the majority.

do you realize that every muscle when trained has some degree of

hypertrophy.

You also do not realize that there are other factors when addressing a kyphotic

posture. HAMSTRING FLEXIBILITY is one of them. I know you don't look at this

as you incorrectly gave advice to a post on this site with regards to this

issue. Quad to hamstring strength. hip flexor strength and flexibility. Of

course we have to also look at upper back musculature as well. You really need

to start from the ground up when evaluating someone with regards to posture.

I don't know if you actually lift weights. If you do, do you do your research

with the local gym rat whose program is an absolute mess and has all the posture

problems associated with a poorly designed program?

While you continue to look at things from a segmental standpoint the strength

and conditioning world looks at it more globally and that is how the body

performs in athletic events.

Train hard and smart!

Damien Chiappini

Pittsburgh,PA.

[Guest guest]

S reply to Ken J

Ken wrote: , First, do you mean humans are born with a spine in

a C-shaped posture? That

line was confusing as written. Second, are you suggesting that the

spine

grows into a characteristic S-shape because of gravity?

writes:

1. The human is born with a C-shaped spine. 2.

Musculoskeletal lever systems like all lever systems possess a

measurable ability to develop force, this measurable quality is

termed mechanical advantage. The unique S-spine of humans as a

lever machine bestows on humans certain unique leverage abilities in

earth's adverse gravity. It appears to me that gravity is the

triggering effect that starts the process of adaptation in the

infant, from the C-shape to the characteristic adult S-shape.

Stated: We see that the Evolution science attributes our unique

ability of being an upright bipedal creature is due to our adapting

the S-shape from our predecessor the Ape and their C-shape spine.

Ken replied: I seem to recall there are at least ten or more

theories regarding how and why bipedalism evolved in humans. In

discussions on how the ancestors of humans started on their legs,

scientists are divided between the terrestrial theory, (we became

bipedal through a four-legged stage on the ground, and the

arboreal theory, (climbing and swinging through trees as potential

precursors for bipedalism).

writes:

Relative to how humans got the S-shape spine there is

the evolutionist and creationist thought process.

Now as physics biomechanical thinker I happen to think creation when

thinking how we got the S-shape, in the same vein that Einstein

stated " God does not play dice with the universe " . Even though I

used God in the preceding sentence I could have used term Aliens, as

in Aliens created humans and brought us here to say mine earth. The

study of the human spine, its physics adaptation of structure and

function, when thinking scientifically creation vs. evolution you

are not thinking a religious issue.

Here is the difference between creation and evolution thinking. It

boils down to luck vs intent.

Evolutionist science thinks S-spine of humans was luck. One day in

herd of 20 apes there was born an ape with a S-shape spine. Now

there could have been an ape born with S-shape spine before but when

you are going to swing in trees that S-shape was no good so that one

died out. However when this one particular one was born the trees

were gone and the ape to survive had to be more bipedal then

quadrupedal, and since this ape was bipedal more then quadrupedal it

survived and its offspring, which had the same programming to

develop the S-shape spine also survived better and pretty soon you

had only the S-shape spine herd.

I could be okay with the evolutionist idea except for this academic

irritation of mine. The evolutionist claim science but they have

not produced science revealing the leverage capabilities of the

human S-shape spine. They are not interested in proving intent,

they are interested in proving luck. They spend time and money

seeking that ape with the S-shaped spine, which they call the

missing link. I fail to see to see how this has help real people in

the real world understand what the S-shaped spine can do for them,

how if they do not have it how they suffer, how they need to train

to get it as young people and how to keep it through life. To me it

makes for good entertainment like watching movies like Jurassic

park.

However when you think creation you think intent. This is how the

old physical medicine thinkers of the past thought. Da Vinci,

Galen, Hippocrates, Borelli they were trying to figure out how the

spine worked. What was the intent of this lever system? What can it

do! How does it work? There is basically no difference between the

structure and mechanics of a heavy lift crane and the human spine

when in position to perform a sit up. This is how they are the

same.

They both are lifting a resistance force. For the crane it would

be the object lifted for the human it would be the upper trunk.

They are both lifting from a curved or lordotic posture with the

convexity of the curve upward. The crane has two articulations or

joints between mass lifted and the stationary point. They are the

joint formed by the boom and jib and where the boom articulates with

the cab of the crane. The human spine has basically 3 more

articulations, T12-first lumbar joint, L2, L3, L4 in between and

eending with 5th lumbar articulating against sacrum.

For effective lifting they both employ one line of pull crossing two

or more joints when making the lift. The crane has muscle or line

of pull that crosses from the cab to attach to the point on jib.

The human body has muscles like external oblique, rectus crossing

all the joints low back, from the hip to the chest.

My point is if you knew how leverage worked and had never seen one,

but you came across a heavy lift crane, you would assume it was

created with intent and your job would be to figure out how it

worked or produced leverage by mechanical advantage.

By engineering the structure out on paper you could determine for

instance that you want to lift with the crane's jib and boom meeting

upright in gravity the same as the lordotic position like the human

s-spine lower back, and not trying to lift with the boom and jibs

lever arms horizontal with the earth.

The biomechanics person looks at the spine like the crane as to what

what posture this lever system should should be in to produce the

best mechanical advantage, which in addition to producing force is

also the safest position to function from.

The PMOT strength person would not address the posture of the crane

and the different mechanical advantage's, to them it is always well

if it did not work right, it just needs more muscle. When it comes

to the human spine, how it works, how it adapts whatever it is

always centers around muscle strength is at heart of everything.

Being a PMOT thinker is not bad, its good, its just the first step

before and below biomechanics and spinal strenghtening thinking. I

know how Damien is thinking, I used to think the way he does. I

started out as strength coach in the old European health clubs in

the mid 1960's. Of the two guys I

would like the most to be on my side would be Casler and Damien.

Through the years I have always found the most AVID PMOT strength

trainer turned into the most RABID Biomechanics strength trainer.

Here is Damien's PMOT muscle reply to everything. We are born with a

c shape spine due to our development in the womb (cramped quarters)

and a lack of muscular strength.

The spine adapts a c shape or simian shape as you put it, due to a

loss of muscle tone. The loss of muscle tone or strength is due to

the lack of gravity on the individual and the subsequent need of the

muscles to aid in the opposition of gravitational forces.

We see it is characteristic as people age they loose the S-shape.

They become humped over. This is again due to a lack of muscle tone

or strength and of course the possible results of osteoporosis and

soft tissue degeneration.

When studying human locomotion relative to spinal adaptation it is

characteristic to first see the infant with C-spine, then trying to

adapt the secondary cervical and lumbar lordotic curves and then in

later life seeing the human slump back into the C-shape and will

mimic the same locomotion characteristics as the infant. This is

normal and related to strength and flexibility of the muscles of an

individual.

Aging of course takes over eventually and a percentage of

the population develop a kyphotic posture due strength imbalances,

loss of strength, loss of flexibility, osteoporosis, and soft tissue

degeneration.

Biomechanical or orthopedic strength training that results in the

enhancement, restoration and preservation of proper S-shaped

posture. This can be achieved with well designed strengthening and

stretching programs.

The PMOT answer for everything spine is that weak muscles cause the

problem and strength training to make muscles stronger is the

answer.

Ken wrote: , are you suggesting that the S-shape spine was the

cause or effect of

bipedalism?

writes:

Ken I guess I would be suggesting that the S-shape

spine comes before being bipedal. We need to examine Spinal S-shape

structure relative to the terms cause and effect.

If you burn yourself with a match what causes the healing blister to

develop. The body does. The match was the effect the caused the

blister relative to what the effect did to the body.

Take darkening of the skin by melanin. The body causes melanin

production relative to the effect of the harmful sunrays.

The important aspect of the body and cause and effect is identifying

the relativity of the two.

For instance you do not get dark skin going into a dark room. You

do not go into no gravity of outer space and expect to develop S-

shape.

Adaptation for the human survival is the ability to adapt in time to

a need. The ability relative to an EFFECT for your body to CAUSE an

adaptation that better increases your survival ability to that

effect.

Humans are born in the adverse EFFECT of earth's gravity, the human

body relative to that effect causes the adaptation of the S-shape.

The S-shape spine possesses a leverage posture that increases the

ability of humans to function against that adverse effect.

There are two special survival leverage abilities that relative to

the force of gravity that adaptation of the S-shape spine gives

humans. One is bipedal locomotion. The other is effective trunk

momentum. This second one is the mechanical principle of how a

heavy lift crane works the same as human performing a supine sit up

against the effect of gravity. Or when standing hitting the guy

infront of you in football.

The key here to training for the development, restoration or

preservation of the lower back curve is understanding the relativity

between gravity and the leverage ability of the lumbar S-curve.

It common knowledge that putting the muscles under PMOT training

they will hypertrophy to better able to handle anticipated weight.

You want bigger muscle you subject it to more resistance.

It is common knowledge that by putting skin under effect of suntan

lamp that melanin production will start to better handle anticipated

exposure to sun rays. You want darker skin you subject your body to

more sun.

The adaptation of lower back S-curve in gravity gives your body

better leverage ability from the supine position to rise up in

gravity into bipedal position. It gives your body better ability to

function against forces from the anterior when in upright position

also.

You want to produce better S-shape lower back you subject your body

to effect of rising supine against the force of gravity. Your body

will develop and maintain S-shape lower back in anticipation of it

having to perform that act. The thing is you do not go crazy when

doing this. Meaning you do not try to subject your skin to hours of

sun or your muscles to heavy weights, you do P?OT Progressive

whatever it is Overload Training. when doing the situp you do it

easy in beginning and you alwasy keep fulcrum under lower back as

safe way to protect lower backs joint tissue (especially as you you

get near L4, L5 and sacrum because this is where the forces on joint

get higher)from being injured from shear forces that would develop

to the posterior that would cause bulging of the discs, pinching of

the nerves and pinching of spinal cord.

From leverage study the upright bipedal posture appears to be more

secondary to the primary leverage function of effective momentum.

The upright posture is a complicated leverage system that is a

basic delivery system for effective momentum. The S-shaped spines

saving grace for bipedal locomotion is the hip joint and hamstrings

do not know that above them maintaining upright posture is a

complicated mess of joints, parts and muscles. They only feel when

the upright mess is sitting correct or not. When it is correct the

hip joint is optimally feeling the entire upright center of trunk

mass is sitting vertically over it self and the hamstrings do not

have to expend energy to maintain the upright trunk mass.

Scherger

Ridgefield WA

In Supertraining , CoachJ1@... wrote:

>

> Hi !

>

> I'm confused by some of your insights in your last post:

>

> We see the human spine born with a C-shape posture. The same

> posture that quadrupeds possess. We see that under the influence

of

> the effect of gravity it attempts to grow into the characteristic

> upright S-shape posture.

>

> First, do you mean humans are born with a spine in a C-shaped

posture? That

> line was confusing as written. Second, are you suggesting that

the spine

> grows into a characteristic S-shape because of gravity?

>

> We see that the Evolution science attributes our unique ability

of

> being an upright bipedal creature is due to our adapting the S-

shape

> from our predecessor the Ape and their C-shape spine.

>

> I seem to recall there are at least ten or more theories regarding

how and

> why bipedalism evolved in humans. In discussions on how the

ancestors of

> humans started on their legs, scientists are divided between the

terrestrial

> theory, (we became bipedal through a four-legged stage on the

ground, and the

> arboreal theory, (climbing and swinging through trees as

potential precursors

> for bipedalism).

>

> Are you suggesting that the S-shape spine was the cause or effect

of

> bipedalism?

>

> Ken Jakalski

> Lisle HS

> Lisle, Illinois

>