Re: Can you predict performance from strength gains?

[Guest guest]

It would be impossible to predict. It would depend on the power and

strength requirements of the sport, the initial training state of the

athlete, the motor skills of the athlete, the specificity of strength

and power gains to sporting performance, etc., etc.

So you cannot only not accurately predict, you have a hard time making

an honest generalization.

If you think of adaptation from an ecological perspective, you have an

individual interacting with an environment by performing a task. This is

a complex thing. It just doesn't break into 'strength and power'.

b_neal19 wrote:

> I had an interesting question proposed to me the other day. The

> question was " If an athlete's strength and power increased x%, how

> much could we predict that their sporting performance would

> increase? " In essence, can we accurately predict how much the

> strength and power increase transfer into the sport and how much it

> would improve performance. Any comments?

>

> Neal

> Chula Vista, Ca

>

>

--

Hobman

Saskatoon, CANADA

[Guest guest]

Interesting question. Difficult to measure. This is about the same as

asking if getting a degree in college or university will make someone

smarter, or more successful. It depends. So much can be said for HOW the

individual uses that " knowledge " of strength, power, and endurance gained

in the process. I know that in a number of sports - cross country and

downhill skiing, sculling and sweep rowing, swimming - the skill and

ability to apply it are crucial, no matter how strong or powerful the

athlete. But there's something else involved. Check out the story of

Silken Laumann, single sculler who was in a disastrous accident 8 weeks

before the 1992 Olympics. She had 5 operations and skin grafting to her

leg - fractured fibula, shredded lower leg nerves, sheared muscle. And got

a Bronze medal in the Olympics. Yeah, suberb conditioning and perfect body

design matter, but it takes more than that for optimal performance.

Lucy Forster

Dept of Anatomy

Chinese U of Hong Kong

--- b_neal19 wrote:

> I had an interesting question proposed to me the other day. The

> question was " If an athlete's strength and power increased x%, how

> much could we predict that their sporting performance would

> increase? " In essence, can we accurately predict how much the

> strength and power increase transfer into the sport and how much it

> would improve performance. Any comments?

>

> Neal

> Chula Vista, Ca

[Guest guest]

This question fascinated me because I am doing my dissertation on talent

identification in baseball. Previous research has shown that there are

two tests for upper body and lower body power (abilities) that are

predictive of success in certain skills. It has been mentioned that

these are not the only tests one would use but there is a large body of

research on Abilities (E.A. Fleishman is the one I am basing my research

on). There would certainly be physical abilities tested as well as

perceptual, nit to mention a psychological profile (whether it be

perceived competence, profile of mood states, intrinsic motivation,

etc).

The 2 test that are often used are a seated med ball chest pass and a

vertical jump...

Steve

Lynchburg, VA

______________________________

From: Supertraining

[mailto:Supertraining ] On Behalf Of Lucy Forster

Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 8:12 PM

To: Supertraining

Subject: Re: Can you predict performance from strength

gains?

Interesting question. Difficult to measure. This is about the same as

asking if getting a degree in college or university will make someone

smarter, or more successful. It depends. So much can be said for HOW the

individual uses that " knowledge " of strength, power, and endurance

gained

in the process. I know that in a number of sports - cross country and

downhill skiing, sculling and sweep rowing, swimming - the skill and

ability to apply it are crucial, no matter how strong or powerful the

athlete. But there's something else involved. Check out the story of

Silken Laumann, single sculler who was in a disastrous accident 8 weeks

before the 1992 Olympics. She had 5 operations and skin grafting to her

leg - fractured fibula, shredded lower leg nerves, sheared muscle. And

got

a Bronze medal in the Olympics. Yeah, suberb conditioning and perfect

body

design matter, but it takes more than that for optimal performance.

Lucy Forster

Dept of Anatomy

Chinese U of Hong Kong

--- b_neal19 <b_neal19@... <mailto:b_neal19%40yahoo.com> > wrote:

> I had an interesting question proposed to me the other day. The

> question was " If an athlete's strength and power increased x%, how

> much could we predict that their sporting performance would

> increase? " In essence, can we accurately predict how much the

> strength and power increase transfer into the sport and how much it

> would improve performance. Any comments?

>

> Neal

> Chula Vista, Ca

[Guest guest]

I'm willing to bet Babe Ruth wouldn't have done so well on either...

:^)

OTOH, I can predict performance just fine for baseball players. Batting

average, RBI's, home runs, earned runs, won-loss....

, (HSHP) wrote:

> This question fascinated me because I am doing my dissertation on talent

> identification in baseball. Previous research has shown that there are

> two tests for upper body and lower body power (abilities) that are

> predictive of success in certain skills. It has been mentioned that

> these are not the only tests one would use but there is a large body of

> research on Abilities (E.A. Fleishman is the one I am basing my research

> on). There would certainly be physical abilities tested as well as

> perceptual, nit to mention a psychological profile (whether it be

> perceived competence, profile of mood states, intrinsic motivation,

> etc).

>

> The 2 test that are often used are a seated med ball chest pass and a

> vertical jump...

>

> Steve

> Lynchburg, VA

>

> ______________________________

>

> From: Supertraining

> <mailto:Supertraining%40yahoogroups.com>

> [mailto:Supertraining

> <mailto:Supertraining%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of Lucy Forster

> Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 8:12 PM

> To: Supertraining <mailto:Supertraining%40yahoogroups.com>

> Subject: Re: Can you predict performance from strength

> gains?

>

> Interesting question. Difficult to measure. This is about the same as

> asking if getting a degree in college or university will make someone

> smarter, or more successful. It depends. So much can be said for HOW the

> individual uses that " knowledge " of strength, power, and endurance

> gained

> in the process. I know that in a number of sports - cross country and

> downhill skiing, sculling and sweep rowing, swimming - the skill and

> ability to apply it are crucial, no matter how strong or powerful the

> athlete. But there's something else involved. Check out the story of

> Silken Laumann, single sculler who was in a disastrous accident 8 weeks

> before the 1992 Olympics. She had 5 operations and skin grafting to her

> leg - fractured fibula, shredded lower leg nerves, sheared muscle. And

> got

> a Bronze medal in the Olympics. Yeah, suberb conditioning and perfect

> body

> design matter, but it takes more than that for optimal performance.

>

> Lucy Forster

> Dept of Anatomy

> Chinese U of Hong Kong

>

> --- b_neal19 <b_neal19@... <mailto:b_neal19%40yahoo.com>

> <mailto:b_neal19%40yahoo.com> > wrote:

>

> > I had an interesting question proposed to me the other day. The

> > question was " If an athlete's strength and power increased x%, how

> > much could we predict that their sporting performance would

> > increase? " In essence, can we accurately predict how much the

> > strength and power increase transfer into the sport and how much it

> > would improve performance. Any comments?

> >

> > Neal

> > Chula Vista, Ca

>

>

--

Hobman

Saskatoon, CANADA

[Guest guest]

It seems that for scouts and team managers and coaches, there may be

a need for quick identification of talents, and perhaps some sort of

field test to try to varify potential abilities, but has there been

research that DIRECTLY correlates any particular 'exercise' with and

particular athletic skill? And if a vertical jump is a pretty

decent indicator of potential skill, does anyone have an idea as to

why?

Football combines come under attack once in a while for not being

accurate representations of potential skill. Does anyone know of

studies done to find a correlation factor?

Of course a good physical test could actually involve movements from

the sport itself, no? There might be many reason why I always got

picked last for teams in grade school.

Chip Conrad

Bodytribe Fitness

Sacramento, CA

www.physicalsubculture.com

>

> > I had an interesting question proposed to me the other day. The

> > question was " If an athlete's strength and power increased x%,

how

> > much could we predict that their sporting performance would

> > increase? " In essence, can we accurately predict how much the

> > strength and power increase transfer into the sport and how much

it

> > would improve performance. Any comments?

> >

> > Neal

> > Chula Vista, Ca

>

[Guest guest]

That does not take in to account competition. I played my high school

baseball in Southern California where baseball reigns supreme. I would

register an educated guess that I competed against better pitching than

someone in Galax, Virginia. Our batting averages and all other

statistics don't mean as much.

I agree with the other responder though. Many talent identification

tasks do not actually include the specific skills involved. That is why

I am testing the actual skill of hitting through a specific test that I

do not have time to address here.

Sincerely,

Steve

Lynchburg, VA

________________________________

From: Supertraining

[mailto:Supertraining ] On Behalf Of Hobman

Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2007 2:46 PM

To: Supertraining

Subject: [sPAM] Re: Can you predict performance from

strength gains?

Importance: Low

I'm willing to bet Babe Ruth wouldn't have done so well on either...

:^)

OTOH, I can predict performance just fine for baseball players. Batting

average, RBI's, home runs, earned runs, won-loss....

, (HSHP) wrote:

> This question fascinated me because I am doing my dissertation on

talent

> identification in baseball. Previous research has shown that there are

> two tests for upper body and lower body power (abilities) that are

> predictive of success in certain skills. It has been mentioned that

> these are not the only tests one would use but there is a large body

of

> research on Abilities (E.A. Fleishman is the one I am basing my

research

> on). There would certainly be physical abilities tested as well as

> perceptual, nit to mention a psychological profile (whether it be

> perceived competence, profile of mood states, intrinsic motivation,

> etc).

>

> The 2 test that are often used are a seated med ball chest pass and a

> vertical jump...

>

> Steve

> Lynchburg, VA

>

> ______________________________

>

> From: Supertraining

<mailto:Supertraining%40yahoogroups.com>

> <mailto:Supertraining%40yahoogroups.com>

> [mailto:Supertraining

<mailto:Supertraining%40yahoogroups.com>

> <mailto:Supertraining%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of Lucy Forster

> Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 8:12 PM

> To: Supertraining

<mailto:Supertraining%40yahoogroups.com>

<mailto:Supertraining%40yahoogroups.com>

> Subject: Re: Can you predict performance from strength

> gains?

>

> Interesting question. Difficult to measure. This is about the same as

> asking if getting a degree in college or university will make someone

> smarter, or more successful. It depends. So much can be said for HOW

the

> individual uses that " knowledge " of strength, power, and endurance

> gained

> in the process. I know that in a number of sports - cross country and

> downhill skiing, sculling and sweep rowing, swimming - the skill and

> ability to apply it are crucial, no matter how strong or powerful the

> athlete. But there's something else involved. Check out the story of

> Silken Laumann, single sculler who was in a disastrous accident 8

weeks

> before the 1992 Olympics. She had 5 operations and skin grafting to

her

> leg - fractured fibula, shredded lower leg nerves, sheared muscle. And

> got

> a Bronze medal in the Olympics. Yeah, suberb conditioning and perfect

> body

> design matter, but it takes more than that for optimal performance.

>

> Lucy Forster

> Dept of Anatomy

> Chinese U of Hong Kong

>

> --- b_neal19 <b_neal19@... <mailto:b_neal19%40yahoo.com>

<mailto:b_neal19%40yahoo.com>

> <mailto:b_neal19%40yahoo.com> > wrote:

>

> > I had an interesting question proposed to me the other day. The

> > question was " If an athlete's strength and power increased x%, how

> > much could we predict that their sporting performance would

> > increase? " In essence, can we accurately predict how much the

> > strength and power increase transfer into the sport and how much it

> > would improve performance. Any comments?

> >

> > Neal

> > Chula Vista, Ca

>

>

[Guest guest]

Interesting you mention Babe Ruth because he was given a battery of tests

measuring all sorts of things in 1921 at Columbia University. Last summer, GQ

Magazine asked Albert Pujols to complete similar tests at Washington University.

I haven't read the GQ article, but a news release from Washington University is

here: http://news-info.wustl.edu/news/page/normal/7535.html.

I wonder how they test for the ability to hit a change-up on a 3-2 count when

the pitcher has used a slider as his " out " pitch on your previous two plate

appearances.

Skip Dallen

Covina, CA

Re: Can you predict performance from strength gains?

I'm willing to bet Babe Ruth wouldn't have done so well on either...

:^)

OTOH, I can predict performance just fine for baseball players. Batting

average, RBI's, home runs, earned runs, won-loss....

[Guest guest]

Chip, take a look at this. I'm not sure where I stand on it. I have been in

the collegiate

strength field for a few years now and I have seen some guys who test well and

can't play

dead and I have seen some guys that don't test well and are great players. I

don't know if

you can predict playing performance from testing results. It helps the process

but not

always true

Neal

Chula Vista, Ca

KIMBERLY J. McGEE and LEE N. BURKETT. 2003: The National Football League

Combine: A

Reliable Predictor of Draft Status?. The Journal of Strength and Conditioning

Research: Vol.

17, No. 1, pp. 6–11.

> >

> > > I had an interesting question proposed to me the other day. The

> > > question was " If an athlete's strength and power increased x%,

> how

> > > much could we predict that their sporting performance would

> > > increase? " In essence, can we accurately predict how much the

> > > strength and power increase transfer into the sport and how much

> it

> > > would improve performance. Any comments?

> > >

> > > Neal

> > > Chula Vista, Ca

> >

>

[Guest guest]

I know that some tests can show power output for athletes and strength levels

but what

this person is looking for is an equation or some way that can predict the

actual outcome

of an event in relation to increases in strength and power. I have told this

person

repeatedly that there is no way to accurately predict that unless all other

variables were

held constant but that would be impossible since there are so many. Steve,

where are you

from in Lynchburg? Do you go to LC or LU for your Ph.D? I am originally from

Forest,

went to HS at jefferson forest. Thanks for your input, lets keep this going

Neal

Chula Vista, ca

>

> > I had an interesting question proposed to me the other day. The

> > question was " If an athlete's strength and power increased x%, how

> > much could we predict that their sporting performance would

> > increase? " In essence, can we accurately predict how much the

> > strength and power increase transfer into the sport and how much it

> > would improve performance. Any comments?

> >

> > Neal

> > Chula Vista, Ca

>

[Guest guest]

LOL!!

Okay, Todd. Good point. I'm not that good. But it is such a complex

issue that I don't see you selecting your team on the basis of the

vertical jump test. I'm wondering about the specific test one member

mentioned developing. I'm betting a combination of bat speed and target

accuracy would be a pretty good indicator. But you still have problems

with that since anticipation and the 'head game' are an important part

of hitting. Would a bat speed test identify Carew as a great hitter?

What about Rose?

IMO baseball is one of the most difficult sports to predict results

based on physical attributes.

Todd Langer wrote:

> ,

>

> If you're that good; I'll enlist you to help my fantasy baseball team!

>

> Todd Langer

> Boulder, CO

>

>

> I'm willing to bet Babe Ruth wouldn't have done so well on either...

>

> :^)

>

> OTOH, I can predict performance just fine for baseball players. Batting

> average, RBI's, home runs, earned runs, won-loss....

>

> , (HSHP) wrote:

>

> > This question fascinated me because I am doing my dissertation on talent

> > identification in baseball. Previous research has shown that there are

> > two tests for upper body and lower body power (abilities) that are

> > predictive of success in certain skills. It has been mentioned that

> > these are not the only tests one would use but there is a large body of

> > research on Abilities (E.A. Fleishman is the one I am basing my research

> > on). There would certainly be physical abilities tested as well as

> > perceptual, nit to mention a psychological profile (whether it be

> > perceived competence, profile of mood states, intrinsic motivation,

> > etc).

> >

> > The 2 test that are often used are a seated med ball chest pass and a

> > vertical jump...

> >

> > Steve

> > Lynchburg, VA

> >

> > ______________________________

> >

> > From: Supertraining

> <mailto:Supertraining%40yahoogroups.com>

> <mailto:Supertraining%40yahoogroups.com>

> > <mailto:Supertraining%40yahoogroups.com>

> > [mailto:Supertraining

> <mailto:Supertraining%40yahoogroups.com>

> <mailto:Supertraining%40yahoogroups.com>

> > <mailto:Supertraining%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of Lucy Forster

> > Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 8:12 PM

> > To: Supertraining

> <mailto:Supertraining%40yahoogroups.com>

> <mailto:Supertraining%40yahoogroups.com>

> <mailto:Supertraining%40yahoogroups.com>

> > Subject: Re: Can you predict performance from strength

> > gains?

> >

> > Interesting question. Difficult to measure. This is about the same as

> > asking if getting a degree in college or university will make someone

> > smarter, or more successful. It depends. So much can be said for HOW the

> > individual uses that " knowledge " of strength, power, and endurance

> > gained

> > in the process. I know that in a number of sports - cross country and

> > downhill skiing, sculling and sweep rowing, swimming - the skill and

> > ability to apply it are crucial, no matter how strong or powerful the

> > athlete. But there's something else involved. Check out the story of

> > Silken Laumann, single sculler who was in a disastrous accident 8 weeks

> > before the 1992 Olympics. She had 5 operations and skin grafting to her

> > leg - fractured fibula, shredded lower leg nerves, sheared muscle. And

> > got

> > a Bronze medal in the Olympics. Yeah, suberb conditioning and perfect

> > body

> > design matter, but it takes more than that for optimal performance.

> >

> > Lucy Forster

> > Dept of Anatomy

> > Chinese U of Hong Kong

> >

> > --- b_neal19 <b_neal19@... <mailto:b_neal19%40yahoo.com>

> <mailto:b_neal19%40yahoo.com>

> <mailto:b_neal19%40yahoo.com>

> > <mailto:b_neal19%40yahoo.com> > wrote:

> >

> > > I had an interesting question proposed to me the other day. The

> > > question was " If an athlete's strength and power increased x%, how

> > > much could we predict that their sporting performance would

> > > increase? " In essence, can we accurately predict how much the

> > > strength and power increase transfer into the sport and how much it

> > > would improve performance. Any comments?

> > >

> > > Neal

> > > Chula Vista, Ca

> >

> >

>

> --

> Hobman

> Saskatoon, CANADA

>

>

--

Hobman

Saskatoon, CANADA

[Guest guest]

>

> I had an interesting question proposed to me the other day. The

> question was " If an athlete's strength and power increased x%, how

> much could we predict that their sporting performance would

> increase? " In essence, can we accurately predict how much the

> strength and power increase transfer into the sport and how much it

> would improve performance. Any comments?

>

****

The below excerpts may add to the discussion:

EXPERIMENTS WITH STRENGTH DEVELOPMENT METHODS

By Anatoli Bondarchuk

Legkaya Atletika, Russia, No. 4, April, 1993.

Subjects in our first experiment performed three exercises (half

squat, snatch and clean) in different variations of intensity zones

in a single set of repetitions.

Participants in the second experiment performed six exercises, made

up from three dynamic (half-squat, snatch, clean) and three isometric

exercises (holding a barbell on the shoulders in a half-squat

position, starting the pull of a snatch with a barbell the athlete is

unable to lift, pressing a barbell the athlete is unable to press.

The procedures to perform one set of multi-intensity exercises was

organized as follows:

„h Barbells with individually adjusted loads were placed on the

platform close to each other

„h The athlete executed the exercise first with one load, followed

immediately (1 to 2 other sec.) with the other load.

This procedure also allowed an athlete to perform combined dynamic and

isometric contractions in one single set. For example, the athlete

performed the starting phase of the snatch by pulling on a barbell he

was unable to move (isometric) and without delay executed the same

exercise by performing a normal snatch (dynamic). The same applied to

the half-squat in which the isometric contraction was executed with a

load that made the straightening from the knee bend impossible.

The described experiment lasted 10 years during which all subjects

improved their exercise results, although the improvements in the

competition exercise varied. The average improvements achieved in the

combined exercises are presented in tables 4 and 5. It should be

noted here that the improvement rates varied considerably between

individual athletes. For example, some athletes increased their half-

squat result by 50kg, while others had to be satisfied with an

improvement of only 10 to 15kg. The results in the snatch and the

clean showed less variation, ranging between 5 to 15kg and 10 to 20kg

respectively (see tables 4 and 5).

It should also be noted that the improvements in the results of the

exercises did not necessarily transfer to the competition exercise.

There were cases where improvements helped to develop only

performances with heavier throwing implements.

===========

Carruthers

Wakefield, UK

[Guest guest]

Steve, that sounds great. But I think the key thing you are doing right

is getting specific for the sport and testing a wide variety of factors

which would serve a indicators. The complexity of your testing certainly

reflects the complexity of hitting. I suspect you would be the first

person to agree with me that testing is baseball is EXTREMELY difficult

and that you couldn't predict hitting performance based on strength gains.

, (HSHP) wrote:

> ,

>

> The hitting test I am using measures a point value for different types

> of hits (ground balls, fly balls, line drives). These point values range

> from negative 2 through 5. I am testing at five different 5 speeds (50,

> 60, 70 MPH fastballs and right hand and left hand curveballs) at 46

> feet. In addition I am testing perceived competence and intrinsic

> motivation. Previous research has used the POMS (profile of mood

> states). I am in the Pilot Stages right now. When I get to the " Real

> Test " I will be testing 11 and 12 year olds so I did not think the POMS

> was as important. I am not doing this to tell kids that they are

> destined to be Major leaguers or not (much can change)...but this could

> help formalize an evaluation tool for coaches, recruiter, etc. I will

> also be writing an intervention for the improvement of the skill of

> hitting a baseball. However, I am testing abilities which are different

> than skills (hand-eye coord, lower and upper-body strength, coincidence

> timing, speed, etc.)

>

> Steve

> Lynchburg, VA

> ________________________________

>

> From: Supertraining

> <mailto:Supertraining%40yahoogroups.com>

> [mailto:Supertraining

> <mailto:Supertraining%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of Hobman

> Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2007 3:29 PM

> To: Supertraining <mailto:Supertraining%40yahoogroups.com>

> Subject: [sPAM] Re: Can you predict performance from

> strength gains?

> Importance: Low

>

> LOL!!

>

> Okay, Todd. Good point. I'm not that good. But it is such a complex

> issue that I don't see you selecting your team on the basis of the

> vertical jump test. I'm wondering about the specific test one member

> mentioned developing. I'm betting a combination of bat speed and target

> accuracy would be a pretty good indicator. But you still have problems

> with that since anticipation and the 'head game' are an important part

> of hitting. Would a bat speed test identify Carew as a great hitter?

> What about Rose?

>

> IMO baseball is one of the most difficult sports to predict results

> based on physical attributes.

>

> Todd Langer wrote:

>

> > ,

> >

> > If you're that good; I'll enlist you to help my fantasy baseball team!

>

> >

> > Todd Langer

> > Boulder, CO

> >

> >

> > I'm willing to bet Babe Ruth wouldn't have done so well on either...

> >

> > :^)

> >

> > OTOH, I can predict performance just fine for baseball players.

> Batting

> > average, RBI's, home runs, earned runs, won-loss....

> >

> > , (HSHP) wrote:

> >

> > > This question fascinated me because I am doing my dissertation on

> talent

> > > identification in baseball. Previous research has shown that there

> are

> > > two tests for upper body and lower body power (abilities) that are

> > > predictive of success in certain skills. It has been mentioned that

> > > these are not the only tests one would use but there is a large body

> of

> > > research on Abilities (E.A. Fleishman is the one I am basing my

> research

> > > on). There would certainly be physical abilities tested as well as

> > > perceptual, nit to mention a psychological profile (whether it be

> > > perceived competence, profile of mood states, intrinsic motivation,

> > > etc).

> > >

> > > The 2 test that are often used are a seated med ball chest pass and

> a

> > > vertical jump...

> > >

>

>

--

Hobman

Saskatoon, CANADA

[Guest guest]

Maine, USABabe Ruth spent his nights drinking, chasing women, women

chasing him with knives and meat cleavers, yet, he was Babe Ruth.

Carson Wood.

Westbrook, ME USA.

Re: Can you predict performance from strength

gains?

Seems like a good opportunity to quote Yogi Berra:

" Baseball is 90% mental, the other half is physical. "

Gympie, Australia

>

> I had an interesting question proposed to me the other day. The

> question was " If an athlete's strength and power increased x%, how

> much could we predict that their sporting performance would

> increase? " In essence, can we accurately predict how much the

> strength and power increase transfer into the sport and how much it

> would improve performance. Any comments?

>

> Neal

> Chula Vista, Ca

>

[Guest guest]

,

I agree 100% that you cannot predict solely on strength gains alone.

Steve

Lynchburg, VA

================

Hobman wrote:

<<<Steve, that sounds great. But I think the key thing you are doing right

is getting specific for the sport and testing a wide variety of factors

which would serve a indicators. The complexity of your testing certainly

reflects the complexity of hitting. I suspect you would be the first

person to agree with me that testing is baseball is EXTREMELY difficult

and that you couldn't predict hitting performance based on strength gains.>>>