Re: Fact or Myth? Can abnormal posture decrease athleticism?

[Guest guest]

,

As you left out of my earlier post, I encouraged people to read

Leiber's book. I would say it is up to those with the

knowledge and intrinsic capability to determine what they feel is

more applicable based on scientific evidence.

All I can tell you is that for me, I know Gray's Anatomy is far less

detailed and specific when it comes to specific EMG and muscle

transformation testing than Mr. Leibers and his collegues.

For me, I choose to go with him, and it is certainly good to look at

others as well so those people who wish to can decide for themselves.

Forbes

Director of Player Development

Athletic Spinal Fitness Institute

Ridgefield, Wa

> >

> >

> > I came across some extremely interesting literature years ago

from

> > Leiber, Ph. D, Associate Professor at U.C.S.D. and his

book,

> >

> > " Skeletal Muscle Structure & Function "

> > Implications for rehabilitation and sports medicine

> >

> > and how he discussed fast twitch muscle transformation into red

slow

> > twitch muscle from chronic low grade stimulation or firing of

these

> > tissues.

> >

> > The emphasis was on how little of extra stimulation could cause

this

> > transformation, and how quickly this could occurr. This study

was

> > done using EMG studies on cats and rats, using denervated muscles

> > such as the solues....with muscle biopsy and staining of the

tissues

> > to clinically demonstrate the acutal physiological

transformation.

> > There were also literature from others who did studies on humans

as

> > well.

> >

> > In a nutshell, Postural muscles are made up of mainly slow

twitch,

> > and these include but are not limited to longissimus and

> > transversospinalis (erector spinae) gastrocnemius, and rectus

> > femoris.

>

> ****I posted your summary of the Somasimple forum as there are

some

> superb clinicians on there (http://www.somasimple.com/). Here is

a

> reply from one of the members:

>

> ---

> I think this point in Forbe's underlying rationale in the

first

> post must be addressed:

>

> Quote:

> In a nutshell, Postural muscles are made up of mainly slow twitch,

> and these include but are not limited to longissimus and

> transversospinalis (erector spinae) gastrocnemius, and rectus

> femoris.

>

> The editors of Gray's Anatomy would beg to differ. On page 754,

they

> discuss muscle fibre. They talk about muscle fibres, found in

various

> species (very important):

>

> twitch type, the sort entirely comprising mammalian skeletal

muscle,

> can conduct action potentials, some (red) contain myoglobin and

lots

> of mitochondria, lots of capillaries, and another variety(white)

of

> twitch that meets its needs through anaerobic glycoloysis - prompt

> access to energy stores but less efficient and less sustainable.

>

> Gray's says,

> Quote:

> In man, all muscles are of the mixed variety, in which fibres that

> are specialized for aerobic working conditions intermingle with

> fibres of a more anaerobic or intermediate metabolic character.

These

> different types of fibre are not readily distinguished in sections

> stained by conventional histological techniques, but they emerge

> quite clearly when more specialized histochemical techniques are

> used...(that stain mitochondria)

>

> Gray's also talks about tonic fibres, or slow contracting, unable

to

> propagate action potentials over their membranes, comprising

postural

> muscles - of birds and reptiles, " uncommon in man and other

mammals,

> where they are restricted to the extrinsic ocular muscles, the

> stapedius muscle of the inner ear and the intrafusal muscle fibres

> off the neuromuscular spindle. "

>

> My point is that I don't think it's a good idea to set up an

exercise

> theory that doesn't have this fundamental understanding at its

heart.

> If all human muscles contain both types of twitch fibre and tonic

> fibres are found only in human eye muscles and inner ears, and in

the

> involuntary efferents to muscle, Forbes need something more

> solid upon which to build his rationale than something that is

> factually incorrect, misleading, or maybe just misinterpreted from

> Leiber. It's a huge theoretical mistake that in humans

there

> are some muscles categorically different from others.

>

> ===============

> Any comments?

> Carruthers

> Wakefield, UK

>

[Guest guest]

I think it is also important to establish that not only are we

dealing with the transformation of fast twitch muscle fibers from

chronic overuse from poor posture, it is also critical to establish

how the postural muscle do and DO NOT work as far as CHANGING

posture.

This is taken from Professor Leibers book, Skeletal muscle structure

and function.

Voluntary vs. Involuntary

Humans have muscles that they can control through conscious effort.

This is because these muscles are (wired) to the voluntary motor

cortex of the brain. Voluntary motor control is also termed the

PYRAMIDAL SYSTEM. There are two nerve pathways for voluntary motion

as noted.

1. Approximately 80% of the neurons originate in the voluntary

motor cortex of the brain on the opposite side of the body.

These neurons descend through the INTERNAL CAPSULE and into the

brain stem on the same side they originate on.

At the lower brain stem, these neurons will cross to the opposite

side of the spinal cord; these nerons are now on the same side as

the muscles to be moved. This crossing is termed DECASATION OF

PYRAMIDS.

These neurons descend down the spinal cord in the lateral

corticospinal tract; this tract is sometimes referred to as the

CROSSED PYRAMIDAL TRACT.

These nerons end in the ANTERIOR HORN in the GREY MATTER of the

spinal cord where there is communication with the ALPHA MOTOR

NEURON, which goes to the voluntary muscle.

2. Approximately 20% of the neurons also descend through the

internal capsule and into the brain stem on the same side of the

body.

These neurons descend down the spinal cord in the ANTERIOR

CORTICOSPINAL TRACT, this tract is sometimes referred to as the

DIRECT PYRAMIDAL TRACT.

These neurons also end in the ANTERIOR HORN in the GREY MATTER of

the spinal cord where there is communication with the ALPHA MOTOR

NEURON which goes to voluntary muscle.

Postural muscles are NOT under control of the voluntary motor

cortex. Therefore, posture is NOT part of the PYRAMIDAL or

VOLUNTRAY muscle system. One may change their posture with

voluntary motor effort ONLY on a temporarty basis as the voluntary

motor pathway and muscles will soon fatigue.

Postural muscles are not WIRED to the voluntary motor cortex, rather

they are WIRED to the non voluntary centers, specifically the

descending control of postural muscles begins in the VESTIBULAR

NUCLEI (SUPERIOR, INFERIOR, LATERAL, MEDIAL) and they are located in

the brain stem. The VESTIBULAR NUCLEI are not under voluntary

control.

BIOMECHANICAL ADAPTATION may bedefined as biologically mediated

changes in the mechanical properties of the tissues.

The specific training I do with my athletes causes biomechanical

changes through specific orthopedic effects to restore, preserve,

and enhance proper posture.

The MYTH that must be exposed here is that simple weight training

exercises change posture. The most common one people are fooled

into believing will change posture... like back extensions.....DONT

correct posture on a permanent basis. The actual structures these

muscles are attached to must FIRST be changed for proper posture and

to avoid the fast twitch muscles transforming into slow twitch.

Forbes

Director of Player Development

Athletic Spinal Fitness Institute

Ridgefield, Wa

. i- In Supertraining , " carruthersjam "

wrote:

>

>

> >

> >

> > I came across some extremely interesting literature years ago

from

> > Leiber, Ph. D, Associate Professor at U.C.S.D. and his

book,

> >

> > " Skeletal Muscle Structure & Function "

> > Implications for rehabilitation and sports medicine

> >

> > and how he discussed fast twitch muscle transformation into red

slow

> > twitch muscle from chronic low grade stimulation or firing of

these

> > tissues.

> >

> > The emphasis was on how little of extra stimulation could cause

this

> > transformation, and how quickly this could occurr. This study

was

> > done using EMG studies on cats and rats, using denervated muscles

> > such as the solues....with muscle biopsy and staining of the

tissues

> > to clinically demonstrate the acutal physiological

transformation.

> > There were also literature from others who did studies on humans

as

> > well.

> >

> > In a nutshell, Postural muscles are made up of mainly slow

twitch,

> > and these include but are not limited to longissimus and

> > transversospinalis (erector spinae) gastrocnemius, and rectus

> > femoris.

>

> ****I posted your summary of the Somasimple forum as there are

some

> superb clinicians on there (http://www.somasimple.com/). Here is

a

> reply from one of the members:

>

> ---

> I think this point in Forbe's underlying rationale in the

first

> post must be addressed:

>

> Quote:

> In a nutshell, Postural muscles are made up of mainly slow twitch,

> and these include but are not limited to longissimus and

> transversospinalis (erector spinae) gastrocnemius, and rectus

> femoris.

>

> The editors of Gray's Anatomy would beg to differ. On page 754,

they

> discuss muscle fibre. They talk about muscle fibres, found in

various

> species (very important):

>

> twitch type, the sort entirely comprising mammalian skeletal

muscle,

> can conduct action potentials, some (red) contain myoglobin and

lots

> of mitochondria, lots of capillaries, and another variety(white)

of

> twitch that meets its needs through anaerobic glycoloysis - prompt

> access to energy stores but less efficient and less sustainable.

>

> Gray's says,

> Quote:

> In man, all muscles are of the mixed variety, in which fibres that

> are specialized for aerobic working conditions intermingle with

> fibres of a more anaerobic or intermediate metabolic character.

These

> different types of fibre are not readily distinguished in sections

> stained by conventional histological techniques, but they emerge

> quite clearly when more specialized histochemical techniques are

> used...(that stain mitochondria)

>

> Gray's also talks about tonic fibres, or slow contracting, unable

to

> propagate action potentials over their membranes, comprising

postural

> muscles - of birds and reptiles, " uncommon in man and other

mammals,

> where they are restricted to the extrinsic ocular muscles, the

> stapedius muscle of the inner ear and the intrafusal muscle fibres

> off the neuromuscular spindle. "

>

> My point is that I don't think it's a good idea to set up an

exercise

> theory that doesn't have this fundamental understanding at its

heart.

> If all human muscles contain both types of twitch fibre and tonic

> fibres are found only in human eye muscles and inner ears, and in

the

> involuntary efferents to muscle, Forbes need something more

> solid upon which to build his rationale than something that is

> factually incorrect, misleading, or maybe just misinterpreted from

> Leiber. It's a huge theoretical mistake that in humans

there

> are some muscles categorically different from others.

>

> ===============

> Any comments?

> Carruthers

> Wakefield, UK

>

[Guest guest]

> BIOMECHANICAL ADAPTATION may bedefined as biologically mediated

> changes in the mechanical properties of the tissues.

>

> The specific training I do with my athletes causes biomechanical

> changes through specific orthopedic effects to restore, preserve,

> and enhance proper posture.

>

> The MYTH that must be exposed here is that simple weight training

> exercises change posture. The most common one people are fooled

> into believing will change posture... like back extensions.....DONT

> correct posture on a permanent basis. The actual structures these

> muscles are attached to must FIRST be changed for proper posture

and

> to avoid the fast twitch muscles transforming into slow twitch.

***

Sorry, I am confused by the latter statement it makes no sense. Is

Leiber suggesting surgery? These comments seem to contradict what

you advocate in practice i.e., the use of Dr Scherger's exercises to

change posture?

Thanks

Carruthers

Wakefield, UK

[Guest guest]

The problem with plumb-bob alignment is that is only takes into

consideration vertical alignment against gravity. This is certainly a

factor in our body positioning but only one of many.

Muscle fiber type certainly correlates with some performance

measures, I suppose what would need to be measured is before and

after treatment biopsies.

=============

Carruthers

Wakefield, UK

[Guest guest]

This is absolutely the BEST response I've ever received from a

post. Your replies are exactly what I wanted....different view

points, others who have read his book, others who have read similiar

types of data and research....I am sure my " theory is vague and

broad " but to me it makes sense. I have certainly no claim that I

can guarantee it....but I certainly have some interesting results

with some athletes that tend to make ME think this is very

viable.....WOW I am totally impressed with all of these responses.

This is MY goal when I post on here....not to say my way or the

highway.....but rather.....hey, this is what I feel works, I felt it

myself by training these athletes AND myself, and heres the results

I've found with this type of training. And here is what I perceive

is happening.... and then let everyone else make their impressions,

good bad or indifferent.

Forbes

Director of Player Development

Athletic Spinal Fitness Institute

Ridgefield, Wa

my resp pos

> The problem with plumb-bob alignment is that is only takes into

> consideration vertical alignment against gravity. This is

certainly a

> factor in our body positioning but only one of many.

>

> Muscle fiber type certainly correlates with some performance

> measures, I suppose what would need to be measured is before and

> after treatment biopsies.

>

> =============

> Carruthers

> Wakefield, UK

>

[Guest guest]

,

Sorry for the confussion.

Mr. Leiber was referring to cases where the transformation back to

fast twitch from slow twitch was observed from hind limb unloading,

such as after an ACL surgery....this would be I assume the highest

level of completely letting the tissues rest and allow it to

transform back to it's original state.

My intention is that if someone has a more effeciant posture where

the hamstrings are not firing at a higher level than what is

necessary, that will allow the fast twitch fibers that have

transformed into slow twitch back to the white fast twitch fibers.

Do I have pure hard cold evidence to support this....NO! What I do

have I feel is a relationship with the study in which Mr. Leiber

states by taking off the higher level contraction and firing....this

then allows the transformation back to fast twitch.

The exercises that our done at the clinic change the structural

curvature or the low back and the neck. The exercises are not

revolutionary by any means. The equipment we use is simply the

highest available form of fulcrum training which has been shown to

increase lordosis on a small degree. The equipment at our clininc

does it on a much larger scale.

A back extension of any form does not put the effect to increase the

lordotic curve...it CAN decrease it however....and there is also a

place for that too with some people who have hyper lordotic

curvatures.

Our stance is that as long as this type of training is done with the

correct amount of frequency, duration, and intensity, the sturctural

change to the spine will improve and maintain. This is a mechanical

change that is taking place, the actual vertabra are being altered

in the alignment from the lateral view.

If someone disontinues the exercises they will lose what they have

gained to some degree or lose it all together, just as any other

exercise will do for strength, endurance, or size.

We are also not claiming our method is the only effective one out

there, I am sure it is not, we do feel however it IS the most

effective, and we certainly hope others come about as well.

Forbes

Director of Player Development

Athletic Spinal Fitness Institute

Ridgefield, Wa

od ochange is a

>

> > BIOMECHANICAL ADAPTATION may bedefined as biologically mediated

> > changes in the mechanical properties of the tissues.

> >

> > The specific training I do with my athletes causes biomechanical

> > changes through specific orthopedic effects to restore,

preserve,

> > and enhance proper posture.

> >

> > The MYTH that must be exposed here is that simple weight

training

> > exercises change posture. The most common one people are fooled

> > into believing will change posture... like back

extensions.....DONT

> > correct posture on a permanent basis. The actual structures

these

> > muscles are attached to must FIRST be changed for proper posture

> and

> > to avoid the fast twitch muscles transforming into slow twitch.

>

> ***

> Sorry, I am confused by the latter statement it makes no sense.

Is

> Leiber suggesting surgery? These comments seem to contradict what

> you advocate in practice i.e., the use of Dr Scherger's exercises

to

> change posture?

>

> Thanks

> Carruthers

> Wakefield, UK

>

[Guest guest]

I'm joining this string of posts a few days late. I apologise if I've

missed all the posts with the academic studies attached, but the majority of

posts thus far seem to involve people's opinions. To be honest these

opinions shouldn't really hold much weight in a high quality academic chat

site like supertraining.- I'm sure Dr Siff will be disappointed with the lack

of trustworthy academic studies.

I have been recently researching to topic of posture and have been

researching posture and its relationship to back pain or athletic

performance. I have been unable thus far to find any good research studies

which is a bit disappointing but I do know there are studies especially

relating to how improvements in golf address posture help to improve the

golf swing. I will keep hunting and will post when I find but in the mean

time here are a couple of interesting studies that show how Neutral spine

endurance exercises (or postural training from biomechanical and

physiological perspectives) decrease low back pain. As we know, pain

reduction is quite different from athletic performance but they will

hopefully stimulate some thought and if anybody does have any other studies

relating to posture and athletic performance please get them out. As Dr

Siff was always at pains to point out peoples opinions are not very

objective (im sure we all remember the posts between Siff and Chek where

Siff was able to show quite conclusively, utilising solidly researched

scientific reasoning, that Cheks opinions were largely flawed). .

Control of the Lumbar Neutral Zone Decreases Low Back Pain and Improves

Self-Evaluated Work Ability: A 12-Month Randomized Controlled Study.

Randomized Trial

Spine. 31(18):E611-E620, August 15, 2006.

Suni, Jaana PT, PhD; Rinne, Marjo PT, MSci; Natri, Antero MD, DMSci;

Statistisian, Matti Pasanen MSci; Parkkari, Jari MD, DMSci; Alaranta, Hannu

MD, DMSci

Abstract:

Study Design. A randomized controlled study with 12 months intervention.

Objective. To study the effectiveness of a training intervention with

emphases on the control of lumbar neutral zone (NZ) and behavior modeling as

secondary prevention of low back pain (LBP) and disability.

Summary of Background Data. Improving the control of lumbar NZ and enhancing

muscle activation patterns ensuring spinal stability have been proposed as

means for secondary prevention of LBP and disability. In addition, cognitive

behavior interventions have been shown to lower the risk of recurrence of

LBP and long-term disability.

Methods. Middle-aged working men with recent LBP but without severe

disability were randomly allocated to either a training (TG, n = 52) or

control group (CG, n = 54). The aim was to exercise twice a week for 12

months, once guided and once independently. The outcome measures were the

changes in intensity of LBP, disability, self-evaluated future work ability,

and neuromuscular fitness.

Results. The intensity of LBP decreased significantly more (39%) in the TG

than in CG at 12 months. The proportion of subjects with negative

expectations about their future work ability decreased in both groups at 6

and 12 months; however, the proportion was significantly bigger in TG

compared with CG (P = 0.028). There effects on disability indexes and

fitness were not statistically significant.

Conclusions. Controlling lumbar NZ is a specific form of exercise and daily

self-care with potential for prevention of recurrent nonspecific LBP and

disability among middle aged working men.

Stability increase of the lumbar spine with different muscle groups. A

biomechanical in vitro study.

*

<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed & cmd=Search & itool=pu

bmed_AbstractPlus & term=%22Wilke+HJ%22%5BAuthor%5D> Wilke HJ,

<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed & cmd=Search & itool=pu

bmed_AbstractPlus & term=%22Wolf+S%22%5BAuthor%5D> Wolf S,

<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed & cmd=Search & itool=pu

bmed_AbstractPlus & term=%22Claes+LE%22%5BAuthor%5D> Claes LE,

<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed & cmd=Search & itool=pu

bmed_AbstractPlus & term=%22Arand+M%22%5BAuthor%5D> Arand M,

<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed & cmd=Search & itool=pu

bmed_AbstractPlus & term=%22Wiesend+A%22%5BAuthor%5D> Wiesend A.

Abteilung fur Unfallchirurgische Forschung und Biomechanik, Universitat Ulm,

Germany.

STUDY DESIGN. This study investigated the influence of five different muscle

groups on the monosegmental motion (L4-L5) during pure flexion/extension,

lateral bending, and axial rotation moments. OBJECTIVES. The results showed

and compared the effect of different muscle groups acting in different

directions on the stability of a single motion segment to find loading

conditions for in vitro experiments that simulate more physiologically

reasonable loads. SUMMARY OF BACKGROUND DATA. In spine biomechanics

research, most in vitro experiments have been carried out without applying

muscle forces, even though these forces stabilize the spinal column in vivo.

METHODS. Seven human lumbosacral spines were tested in a spine tester that

allows simulation of up to five symmetrical muscle forces. Changing pure

flexion/extension, lateral bending, and axial rotation moments up to +/-

3.75 Nm were applied without muscle forces, with different muscle groups and

combinations. The three-dimensional monosegmental motion was determined

using an instrumented spatial linkage system. RESULTS. Simulated muscle

forces were found to strongly influence load-deformation characteristics.

Muscle action generally decreased the range of motion and the neutral zone

of the motion segments. This was most evident for flexion and extension.

After five pairs of symmetrical, constant muscle forces were applied (80 N

per pair), the range of motion decreased about 93% in flexion and 85% in

extension. The total neutral zone for flexion and extension was decreased by

83% muscle action. The multifidus muscle group had the strongest influence.

CONCLUSION. This experiment showed the importance of including at least some

of the most important muscle groups in in vitro experiments on lumbar spine

specimens.

========

Eastham

Total Trainers - Better Living Through Fitness

London, UK

[Guest guest]

You've made a good point and I apologise for offending you. Looking

back I agree my last post was over the top. I do believe that athletes

experience based opinions are very important, and also know how the

commitment to go against what many academics or professionals advise is

often what helps an athlete to succeed at the highest level. Academic and

sporting progression should happen hand in hand.

I am very interested in posture so don't want to stop discussion in any way.

Firstly I am wondering exactly how we define postural abnormalities. I

assume that posture is referring to static and dynamic posture. But what is

normal posture? It definitely is not ideal posture with perfect movement

because there are not many people in the world who, sit stand and move with

ideal posture. So could I ask if this discussion is about athletes with

abnormal posture or 'non-ideal posture'?

I guess I was just trying to highlight the idea that posture affects

athletic achievement is multiple ways depending on a persons individual

situation. In certain situations abnormal posture has a positive impact on

athletic achievement. In other situations postural abnormalities have a

negative impact.

An example of how 'abnormal' posture can improve performance is Murali

Muralidarana. He is a record breaking Sri Lankan cricket bowler who bowls

leg spin. When he tries to bowl (Pitch) cricket balls his aim is to move

his arm and wrist in such ways that the ball can come out spinning rapidly.

If he moves his arm/hand in different directions the ball spins in different

directions. Over that last few years many commentators and opposition fans

have complained because in their opinions he was bowling illegal deliveries,

but when he was taken into a lab he was simply found to have hyperflexible

shoulder, wrist, hand and fingers, with an elbow that could not straighten

the last 15degrees. As a result his abnormal dynamic posture during bowling

delivery allowed him to bowl deliveries that others are not capable of.

Postural abnormalities within one person are also quite dynamic and ever

changing. Posture is intrinsically linked to mood and emotion. If an

athlete is confident and in a positive mood their posture will often reflect

this, where as if an athlete is distinctly lacking in confident, depressed

and is in a very negative mood their posture is often slouched and

negatively affected. So if an athletes posture is constantly being affected

by their ever changing emotional state could we argue that there actually is

no 'normal' postural state?

Eastham

London, UK