mirroring

January 17, 2009

On Jan 16, 2009, at 9:49 PM 1/16/09, environmental1st2003 wrote:

>

> " I'm living proof. But it's plain that your experiences are vastly

> different from mine so you're not going to accept my data in any

> form. "

>

> And yet I shake your hand and bow my head.

>

> Congratulations!

>

> However, your success has not been the case with me.

Perhaps not for you but it might benefit others. And with some words

in the previous posting you've stated that it's not been possible for

anyone you know.

That statement alone effectively puts your foot down on me saying any

further.

I will reiterate - if I can do it so can others.

But thank you for at least acknowledging that I'm not crazy.

--

Mike

In the end the journey only matters if you've helped someone along

the way.

January 17, 2009

Mike wrote: " ... <snip> ... It's not a matter of faking sincerity

it's a matter of communicating using their protocols ... <snip> ... "

Raven responded: " In other situations, I would agree with you, Mike,

but we're taking the Arts Industry here and faking sincerity is the

most effective tool used by most of those who achieve serious success

in the industry. Faking sincerity is their protocol because most

everything in the industry is about smoke-and-mirrors presentation.

Mike replied: Just another protocol - i.e. you didn't do the sacred

dance. You don't have to lie. That's the biggest complaint I've

heard about communicating with other people by any other AS person

I've met. It seems like you_have_ to lie to them to get anything

done. You don't. They _will_ accept the truth but it's got to be

put to them via their communication channels and that means using

their protocols ... <snip> ... "

I don't doubt that this works in the situations in which you find

yourself, Mike.

That being said, the sacred dance in the Arts is, for the most part,

all about lying. Even an 'image' is a lie. That's the sacred dance

protocol of the Arts Industry.

The Arts Industry sacred dance protocol is built on a shaky

foundation where telling the truth in the nicest way possible will

get you shut out even when you are exceedingly careful.

Most musicians become musicians because they crave the attention, not

because they think they are excellent musicians or songwriters. The

more validation the musician needs, the more attention-seeking the

musician is. They look to everyone they think has some pull in the

industry -- as well as fans and street teams -- to rubber stamp

approve them, thereby confirming that the musician is definitely

worthy.

Criticism is hard to swallow for any of us but criticism is

especially critical to a person in the limelight or who craves to be

in the limelight. Likewise, giving criticism can cut in both

directions as the reaction can swing back and knock your block off if

you don't step aside immediately after giving your opinion to such an

individual.

And so the vast majority of individuals in the Arts Industry

shamelessly lie to each other. Someone looks like hell on stage and

there's someone right there to say they looked better than so-and-so

and if they need to prove it, there's some hot number in the third

row giving the musician the eye ... in other words, a roll in the

sheets will supposedly make the musician a better musician by virtue

of boosting the ego via mindless sex acts.

Someone gives a bad show and there's someone right there to blame

that bad show on any number of scapegoats (Do you remember the SNL-

Simpson lip sync fiasco? She and her management blamed the band, the

band leader, the sound technician, the record label, the SNL

producers, et al for what happened that night.) Check it out here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NCeUwu9gOzk. All this from the artist

who said in a magazine interview that she would NEVER lip sync only

to be caught lip syncing when she appeared on SNL.

So you see, Mike, that with even those few examples, it's easy to see

that lying is the currency oftentimes used in the Arts industry and

since I refuse to dance to that allegedly sacred dance, I walk a

straighter, more life affirming path (along with a handful of similar

artists0 in the industry.

Mike also wrote: " ... <snip> ... The first thing I do when

communicating with people like that is small talk. Regardless what

you might think this is an _essential_ task because it shows you

their mannerisms, their speech patterns, and gives you a peek at

their " tribal customs " so to speak ... <snip> ... "

I won't follow the tribal custom of lying for the sake of being

accepted into their 'sacred' circle. Their circle is NOT sacred and

it is not worthy of my energy. I know their mannerisms; I know their

speech patterns. I'm not interested in their protocol of lies and

deception.

Mike also suggested: " ... <snip> ... Compliment something about

them, ask about their family or if they have one, comment on the

number of people at the conference -- anything but the subject you

want to know about. Avoid anything that might even possibly be

considered controversial ... <snip> ... "

LOL! There is an inordinate number of narcissistic ego-maniacs in

the Arts Industry. You almost have to be since standing up on a

stage or producing a show or promoting an act or troupe et al

requires that sort of arrogance to move ahead of the pack.

Compliments are only compliments if you mean them and since so much

in the Arts if smoke-and-mirror lies for the benefit of the

individual receiving the lie, compliments pale in comparison.

They don't care about the number of people at the conference. All

that matters is him or her and to hell with everyone else. That's

why jam sessions are train wrecks waiting to happen. And if you

aren't talking about the individual to his face, then anything else

you say is controversial ... even good morning can be controversial

sometimes.

Mike also suggested: " ... <snip> ... The second thing I do is feed

their customs back to them one at a time. S-L-O-W-L-Y. Read the

reaction to each item and assess if it's positive or negative ...

<snip> ... "

I don't compromise my ethics, morals or personal codes for anyone or

any reason. Mike, S-L-O-W-L-Y or at any other rate. I also won't lie

S-L-O-W-L-Y or at any other rate. There's too much time and energy

investment demanded when one begins to trade in lies and half-truths.

Mike concluded with: " ... <snip> ... Over time you'll likely find,

as I have, that many of the protocols you pick up are fairly common

between people. At that point it's kind of like playing Mr.

Potatohead in that you pick the right parts out of the bag for the

person you're dealing with ... <snip> ... "

Maybe in some situations but not in all situations as you can see,

Mike.

As a side note, the most over-used protocol in the Arts industry

is, " You are so incredibly talented. " Usually that protocol is met

with effervescently idiotic comments back and forth seeking more and

more information (ie. Did you really like what I did? What did you

like best about ME? Am I better than so-and-so? You didn't think

that last crotch grab was too much then?).

I drive people absolutely bonkers because my response to " You are so

incredibly talented " just happens to be " Thank you; I know " and then

walking away. LOLOLOLOL!

The thing is, what I say is not smoke-and-mirrors lies and half-

truths although the 'protocol' may not be sincere. I believe that I

am incredibly talented and so it really doesn't matter one bit

whether anyone else agrees or disagrees. I create what I create

because I love what I create. It cannot be diminished by someone who

does not see my creation for what it is ergo it cannot be increased

in value by a tawdry protocol that may or may not be sincere.

Raven

January 17, 2009

" Perhaps not for you but it might benefit others. And with some words

in the previous posting you've stated that it's not been possible for

anyone you know.

" That statement alone effectively puts your foot down on me saying any

further. "

It may work for others. I don't know.

Administrator

January 17, 2009

> Mike wrote: " ... <snip> ... It's not a matter of faking sincerity

> it's a matter of communicating using their protocols ... <snip> ... "

>

> Raven responded: " In other situations, I would agree with you, Mike,

> but we're taking the Arts Industry here and faking sincerity is the

> most effective tool used by most of those who achieve serious success

> in the industry. Faking sincerity is their protocol because most

> everything in the industry is about smoke-and-mirrors presentation.

I've obviously struck a nerve here and for that I'm truly sorry.

But I know a few artists here and there including actors, singers,

and writers.

Hell I went to high school and still keep in touch with Tadao Tomomatsu:

http://tadaotomomatsu.com/

He's a close friend and not the first artist I have had contact with.

I may not be actively involved in that industry (not yet anyway) but

I _do_ know something about it.

ly I think you're meeting the wrong people in the industry but

that's totally a personal opinion.

Regardless I stand by my previous statements:

You don't have to lie.

You just have to learn the sacred dance so to speak.

You know...for a subject I was willing to drop I'm talking an awful

lot about it... :-/

--

Mike

In the end the journey only matters if you've helped someone along

the way.

January 17, 2009

On Jan 16, 2009, at 10:46 PM 1/16/09, environmental1st2003 wrote:

>

> " Perhaps not for you but it might benefit others. And with some words

> in the previous posting you've stated that it's not been possible for

> anyone you know.

>

> " That statement alone effectively puts your foot down on me saying any

> further. "

>

> It may work for others. I don't know.

That's the only reason I wanted to make sure people were aware of it

really.

I really do want to just share what I know.

I started out before there were any serious diagnoses for AS/Autism

in early childhood and I had to find my own path. These are the

skills I had to develop to survive.

I can't be the only one that would benefit from these. That's why I

try and pass on what I know.

Especially since it's going to be years before I can pass them on to

my daughter... :-(

--

Mike

In the end the journey only matters if you've helped someone along

the way.

January 17, 2009

"ly I think you're meeting the wrong people in the industry butthat's totally a personal opinion."

Ooo boy. if only you knew who Raven was and is.

Raven has had her own bands under her real name and under her stage names, has toured the world and spent some time mastering records with someone who is considered one of the world's greatest. She has sung backup for some famous bands, has managed bands, and has mastered the music of famous bands. She can call up some of the most well-known musicians in the world and say "Hiya! How you doin?"

She has seen it all, and I have seen much while I have been with her. I think her opinion is pretty much on the money. But I will also say that just like Raven is one of those ethical musicians, there are of course others like her, but they tend to be more the exception than the rule.

Administrator

January 17, 2009

Mike wrote: " ... <snip> ... I've obviously struck a nerve here and for

that I'm truly sorry.

But I know a few artists here and there including actors, singers,

and writers.

Hell I went to high school and still keep in touch with Tadao Tomomatsu:

http://tadaotomomatsu.com/

He's a close friend and not the first artist I have had contact with.

I may not be actively involved in that industry (not yet anyway) but

I _do_ know something about it ... <snip> ... "

LOLOLOLOL! You haven't struck a nerve at all. A statement of fact

isn't what one calls striking a nerve. Well, not in my circle of

influence it isn't. It might be in yours.

And while it's interesting that you went to high school with Tadao

Tomomatsu and keep in touch with him, I don't name drop. I don't need

to name drop. The people I know in the industry who I respect and who

respect me don't need to be mentioned. Suffice it to say that some of

my inner circle of non-Arts industry people have met some of those 'big

name' people and so they know I am not blowing smoke rings at them.

Likewise, they know that the manner in which these 'big name' friends

of mine act proves out my claim that most in the Industry dance the

protocol sacred dance of lies while these 'big names' choose to do

otherwise.

I suppose that means you think you've struck a nerve with all of them

as well? ;-)

While you believe you have an accurate view of the industry, I can

assure you do not. You have an outsider's perspective and that's fine

because that's what you are at present. Enjoy the sacred dance when

you start dancing it fast and furious and find yourself learning that

the rules you put forth here in the forum have led you to learn the

sacred dance protocol of lying, half-truths, smoke and mirrors and

more. You're going to LOVE the education!!! Wait until you get

homework assigned.

:-D

Raven

January 17, 2009

> And while it's interesting that you went to high school with Tadao

> Tomomatsu and keep in touch with him, I don't name drop. I don't need

> to name drop. The people I know in the industry who I respect and who

> respect me don't need to be mentioned. Suffice it to say that some of

> my inner circle of non-Arts industry people have met some of those

> 'big

> name' people and so they know I am not blowing smoke rings at them.

> Likewise, they know that the manner in which these 'big name' friends

> of mine act proves out my claim that most in the Industry dance the

> protocol sacred dance of lies while these 'big names' choose to do

> otherwise.

The name drop wasn't to impress you it was a piece of information to

show you that I'm not totally clueless about the situation as you

seem to claim that I am.

> While you believe you have an accurate view of the industry, I can

> assure you do not. You have an outsider's perspective and that's fine

> because that's what you are at present. Enjoy the sacred dance when

> you start dancing it fast and furious and find yourself learning that

> the rules you put forth here in the forum have led you to learn the

> sacred dance protocol of lying, half-truths, smoke and mirrors and

> more. You're going to LOVE the education!!! Wait until you get

> homework assigned.

I refuse to accept that view. Period.

In short I refuse to agree that any industry is composed and works on

a basis of lies. Even politics has truth at its base despite how

corrupted it is.

--

Mike

In the end the journey only matters if you've helped someone along

the way.

January 17, 2009

On Jan 16, 2009, at 11:06 PM 1/16/09, environmental1st2003 wrote:

>

> " ly I think you're meeting the wrong people in the industry but

> that's totally a personal opinion. "

>

> Ooo boy. if only you knew who Raven was and is.

>

> Raven has had her own bands under her real name and under her stage

> names, has toured the world and spent some time mastering records

> with someone who is considered one of the world's greatest. She has

> sung backup for some famous bands, has managed bands, and has

> mastered the music of famous bands. She can call up some of the

> most well-known musicians in the world and say " Hiya! How you doin? "

>

> She has seen it all, and I have seen much while I have been with

> her. I think her opinion is pretty much on the money. But I will

> also say that just like Raven is one of those ethical musicians,

> there are of course others like her, but they tend to be more the

> exception than the rule.

>

And. I. Don't. Care. ly I couldn't give a damn about her

current connections. I'm just not that way.

I was speaking to the situation as humans and the fact that all

humans NT or AS on this planet have their own communications

protocols and that I feel that learning them is paramount to dealing

with NT people from an AS standpoint.

--

Mike

In the end the journey only matters if you've helped someone along

the way.

January 17, 2009

Mike wrote: " And. I. Don't. Care. ly I couldn't give a damn about

her current connections. I'm just not that way ... <snip> ... "

Ah, Mike, but you ARE that way otherwise you wouldn't have posted that

you know Tadao Tomomatsu and then provided a link to prove that Tadao

is 'someone' in the industry. The fact that he presents himself to the

industry as a " JACK OF MOST TRADES " underscores strongly his position

in the industry.

Mike wrote: " ... <snip> ... I was speaking to the situation as humans

and the fact that all humans NT or AS on this planet have their own

communications protocols and that I feel that learning them is

paramount to dealing with NT people from an AS standpoint. "

Are you implying that people in the industry aren't human? LOL!

If you truly believe that all people have their own communications

protocols, then surely it isn't that difficult to see that an industry

built on promoting and supporting superficial smoke-and-mirrors images

operates on lies and half-truths.

Raven

January 17, 2009

Mike wrote: " ... <snip> ... The name drop wasn't to impress you it was

a piece of information to show you that I'm not totally clueless about

the situation as you seem to claim that I am ... <snip> ... "

I may feel that way but I never said or wrote you were clueless. It's

so very obvious that you and I travel in extremely different circles in

the Industry. Now you'll say we're comparing and having some sort

of 'contest' but the fact of the matter is, I have read Tadao's resume

and anyone who labels himself as a " JACK OF MOST TRADES " is, in fact,

master of none. Those people in the industry who I know are masters at

what they do. You, on the other hand, know Jack.

Mike wrote: " ... <snip> ... In short I refuse to agree that any

industry is composed and works on a basis of lies. Even politics has

truth at its base despite how corrupted it is ... <snip> ... "

Politics isn't based on creating an alternate reality for the

population. That it may have become that in some situations is a

secondary outgrowth of the original reason for the existence of

politics.

The Arts Industry, on the other hand, was specifically created as an

alternate reality and in that alternate reality, sleight of hand and

manipulation of facts is paramount to its existence.

It's admirable that you refuse to agree based on your limited exposure

to the industry. Unfortunately, you are sadly mistaken in your

assertion that the Arts Industry isn't primarily a lie and half-truth

driven industry.

Like I said, you're going to LOVE the education. :-)

Raven

January 17, 2009

"And. I. Don't. Care. ly I couldn't give a damn about her current connections. I'm just not that way."

"I was speaking to the situation as humans and the fact that all humans NT or AS on this planet have their own communications protocols and that I feel that learning them is paramount to dealing with NT people from an AS standpoint."

I understand, and my point was to try to elucidate the fact that in Raven's industry, learing proper protocol means learning to lie, yet you refuse to acknowledge the protocol.

Let me state from a different standpoint why I brought Raven's resume into this.

First of all, if you watched videos on the right channel in the late 80's and early 90's, there may have been a chance you've seen her, either doing her own video for her bands or as back-up for some other band.

If you liked punk or heavy metal, you may have even attended one of her venues no matter what country in the world you live in.

She doesn't use her stage names these days because if she did, she'd have people beating down her door scrambling for autographs. She was that popular under her stage names.

By pure coincidence, a member of this forum has one of her albums under her stage name. When you consider that there are less than 400 people in this forum now, and at the time we found out she had the album there was maybe two hundred members, that's one heck of a coincidence, or else it means Raven is really popular under those other names, although admittedly, the forum member's husband was in a band at one time too and both of them are music affecionados so maybe they collect all sorts of albums and Raven's was one of many hundreds.

Raven doesn't want to name drop, and I simply cannot do it, because if I did, it would be the equivalent of giving out the phone numbers of major celebrities in a way. People would try to get to them through her.

But let's put it this way: If you listen to a classic rock station for a couple hours a day, chances are a friend of Raven has been playing on the radio while you have been listening. There is also a chance you may have heard HER playing as well if you listen to the right station. That will give you an idea of the level of celebrity she has been affiliated with and how well ingrained in the industry she is.

Heck, the past two days I accompanied Raven as she shook hands with loads of people who are currently on the road. Her job at this convention was to seek out talent for one of the local venues. She is, in effect, a talent scout.

Now Raven isn't Joan Jett, Janis Joplin, or Joni , but at one point in her career she had a recording contract in the works that would have rivaled any of them.

She knows what she is talking about as far as the industry is concerned, being on the hiring side of it as well as on the recording and producing side of it, as well as having been on the management side of it. We can agree to disagree, but from my personal standpoint, I find this argument VERY silly.

Administrator

January 17, 2009

Sad, even worse I can relate to what you have wrote from my own

observations :-(

However I still have hope and belief that there are rare

occurances/people that are exceptions to what you have portrayed.

>

> " I am surrounded by mostly NT's in this world so at times perhaps

it

> is

> helpful to speak their language? "

>

> Raven and I were at a convention these past two days. Perhaps she

> will tell some stories about it here, but suffice it to say that it

> seemed to me that the more she dumbed down her talk, the more

success

> she had interacting with people.

>

> This leads me to believe that they key to successful interaction

with

> NTs is to act stupid.

>

> There was a woman there who was able to pick up a different guy

each

> night to take back to her hotel room. Took her less than half and

> hour each time, and she seemed to get the guy of her choosing.

> Absolute airhead, but a predatory airhead. In other words, she

seemed

> to know that if she acted the way a guy thought a sleaze should

act,

> she stood a good chance of picking one up in less than half an

hour.

> She was right.

>

> This leads me to believe that they key to successful interaction

with

> people I'd want to go to bed with (if I were of that disposition)

is

> to act like a dumb jock with an itchy jock strap.

>

> With certain parents, they like to do two things mostly:

>

> 1) Complain about what a burden their kids are, or

> 2) Talk about them in a cutesy fashion as though they are dogs

> learning new tricks.

>

> If I talk about the latest research with them, their eyes glaze

over

> and they try to change the subject. But if I sympathize with

> their " plight " or share what they think are amusing stories about

> autistics (but which are really stories about autistics trying to

> connect with their parents but being misinterpreted by clueless

> parents) I'm their new best friend.

>

> This leads me to believe that they key to successful interaction

with

> certain parents of autistics is to act like I know autistic kids

are

> the biggest burden there is...except when they are being the

lovable

> dopey lunkheads they are.

>

> Administrator

>

January 17, 2009

Okay a recent example, a conversation I had with my mum, but I have

had similar with others too;

They start off telling me something, I ask for more info', for

example the source of their information.

Now to me and also from what I have read, asking questions and paying

interest in what another is saying is supposedly the correct

procedure. The person telling me something at this point usually gets

annoyed and questions the importance of where said information came

from - I let them continue. If I ask further questions they get

increasingly annoyed and in the case of my mother yesterday exclaimed

in exasperation 'Oh it's not important anyway', referring to what

she was trying to tell me. I then questioned why she was telling me

about it if it wasn't important.

I have found this with many though, they talk about stuff that they

themselves don't consider important and if I express an interest I've

somehow done wrong - which confuses me a lot.

>

> > That being said, I am bothered by the fact that I must feign a

> > certain amount of majoritarianism in order to fit in to that world

> > and get jobs done that need to be done.

> >

> > I remember realizing 25 or so years ago that once an individual

can

> > fake sincerity, that individual has it made! My opinion with

regards

> > to faking sincerity has not changed in all that time.

>

> It's not a matter of faking sincerity it's a matter of

communicating

> using their protocols.

>

> There are ways to show that you disagree with them that will not

set

> them off. If you learn their protocols you never have to lie to

them

> if you don't want to because they understand the emotion and the

> information behind the protocol.

>

> Apeing is not a matter of being insincere but a matter of talking

to

> them using their own language. Once you learn the language then

you

> can say anything you want.

>

> You'll never be a native (no loss there as far as I'm concerned)

but

> you won't be a " foreigner " either.

>

> Think of it as learning to trade with an alien species. ^_^

> --

> Mike

>

> In the end the journey only matters if you've helped someone along

> the way.

>

January 17, 2009

On Fri, Jan 16, 2009 at 16:05, environmental1st2003

<no_reply > wrote:

>

> " I am surrounded by mostly NT's in this world so at times perhaps it

> is

> helpful to speak their language? "

>

I know a few NT's that will speak on higher levels, but they do not

seem to be very common.

>

> There was a woman there who was able to pick up a different guy each

> night to take back to her hotel room. Took her less than half and

> hour each time, and she seemed to get the guy of her choosing.

> Absolute airhead, but a predatory airhead. In other words, she seemed

> to know that if she acted the way a guy thought a sleaze should act,

> she stood a good chance of picking one up in less than half an hour.

> She was right.

>

> This leads me to believe that they key to successful interaction with

> people I'd want to go to bed with (if I were of that disposition) is

> to act like a dumb jock with an itchy jock strap.

>

Strange. I never did have an attraction to the dumb jock type (more

accurately a revulsion), but I know a few athletes that actually are

pretty smart. One of the cross country runners at my school was only a

few decimal places behind for valedictorian. I wonder if my revulsion

for sex crazed people is because I want something with more emotional

value and permanance than one of those affairs where I might wake up

next to a strange guy or girl in my bed. Then again, I always hated

sleeping next to siblings (the breathing keeps me wide awake).

> With certain parents, they like to do two things mostly:

>

> 1) Complain about what a burden their kids are, or

> 2) Talk about them in a cutesy fashion as though they are dogs

> learning new tricks.

>

I always hated #2. I am a human, and I prefer to have people talk

about me like I am a human, and not like a dog (though in personality

I have always seemed more like a cat than a dog- quiet, shy but

sometimes playful, loyal but independent, curious yet cautious)

>

> This leads me to believe that they key to successful interaction with

> certain parents of autistics is to act like I know autistic kids are

> the biggest burden there is...except when they are being the lovable

> dopey lunkheads they are.

Who are the lunkheads, the children or the parents? </jest>

>

> Administrator

>

January 17, 2009

wrote: " Okay a recent example, a conversation I had with my

mum, but I have had similar with others too. They start off telling

me something, I ask for more info', for example the source of their

information.