Guest guest Posted January 16, 2009 Report Share Posted January 16, 2009 I've been reading a book about interaction. I can't say I agree with everything in it, especially when it says research has shown that people who do not like to be touched are less intelligent. More annoyingly is that it doesn't seem to cite this research. The book was writen in 1980's and I got it from a charity shop. Anyways it mentioned mirroring people, which I have heard of before and says you are likely to get on better with someone if you mirror them. I just wondered has anyone tried this? and if so did you think it helped? Anyone have any thoughts on this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 16, 2009 Report Share Posted January 16, 2009 Mirroring can be used to create a rapport. Usually mirroring is done unconsciously when a person mimics the body language and postures of someone they are interacting with. In this case it is a sign of liking the person. On there other hand, it could be abused by someone who actively mirrors a mark to gain their trust. Anyways it mentioned mirroring people, which I have heard of before and says you are likely to get on better with someone if you mirror them. I just wondered has anyone tried this? and if so did you think it helped? Anyone have any thoughts on this?A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 16, 2009 Report Share Posted January 16, 2009 For what it's worth... Most of the books I've seen on interactions between people are not particularly interested in dealing with others as equals in a fair open and transparent manner. They geared more to provide ways to manipulate others to do what the reader wants them to do or agree with his position on some topic. Clear and accurate information exchange is the last thing they want to promote... When their methods encounter someone that can't be manipulated in the same way most people rather than admit that they got caught with a hand in the cookie jar they will claim you misunderstood their intentions generally suggesting that the one that caught them in the act isn't smart able to understand what was going on... when the truth is they were trying to pull a fast one I dislike sales people in general but the ones that want to get people to shell out more than something is worth, the same ones that read and write that sort of book deserve a special place in hell... Why do adult always tell kids to " play fair " and " treat others fairly " when they know that real world isn't fair and seldom gives anyone an even brake. I sorry that got close to some of my misplaced buttons... Just ignore me... Ender At 03:04 AM 1/16/2009, you wrote: >I've been reading a book about interaction. I can't say I agree with >everything in it, especially when it says research has shown that >people who do not like to be touched are less intelligent. More >annoyingly is that it doesn't seem to cite this research. The book was >writen in 1980's and I got it from a charity shop. > >Anyways it mentioned mirroring people, which I have heard of before and >says you are likely to get on better with someone if you mirror them. I >just wondered has anyone tried this? and if so did you think it helped? >Anyone have any thoughts on this? > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 16, 2009 Report Share Posted January 16, 2009 > Anyways it mentioned mirroring people, which I have heard of before > and > says you are likely to get on better with someone if you mirror > them. I > just wondered has anyone tried this? and if so did you think it > helped? > Anyone have any thoughts on this? Mirroring helps in some cases but in my experience it has to be very selective mirroring. A word here, a facial expression there. Pick and choose. It also helps to store those pieces away and use them with other people. A great many interactive gestures, facial expressions, and body language are from other people and in some cases even TV or movies. When you take all these things and blend them together you can almost always provide at least an interactive profile that the majority will find inoffensive because it consists of things they've already dealt with. -- Mike In the end the journey only matters if you've helped someone along the way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 16, 2009 Report Share Posted January 16, 2009 > It also helps to store those pieces away and use them with other > people. A great many interactive gestures, facial expressions, and > body language are from other people and in some cases even TV or > movies. Sorry, I meant to say " a great many of my interactive gestures " , etc. Frozen fingers, frozen brain. -- Mike In the end the journey only matters if you've helped someone along the way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 16, 2009 Report Share Posted January 16, 2009 " I sorry that got close to some of my misplaced buttons... " I noticed :-) I agree with what you say regarding most interactions though. I guess I always think that I am somehow getting it wrong- interaction that is and lot of the time I am. There is no way I am going to suddenly become NT and neither do I desire to be, however I am surrounded by mostly NT's in this world so at times perhaps it is helpful to speak their language? > > For what it's worth... > > Most of the books I've seen on interactions between people are not > particularly interested in dealing with others as equals in a fair > open and transparent manner. They geared more to provide ways to > manipulate others to do what the reader wants them to do or agree > with his position on some topic. Clear and accurate information > exchange is the last thing they want to promote... When their methods > encounter someone that can't be manipulated in the same way most > people rather than admit that they got caught with a hand in the > cookie jar they will claim you misunderstood their intentions > generally suggesting that the one that caught them in the act isn't > smart able to understand what was going on... when the truth is they > were trying to pull a fast one > > I dislike sales people in general but the ones that want to get > people to shell out more than something is worth, the same ones that > read and write that sort of book deserve a special place in hell... > > Why do adult always tell kids to " play fair " and " treat others > fairly " when they know that real world isn't fair and seldom gives > anyone an even brake. > > I sorry that got close to some of my misplaced buttons... Just ignore me... > > Ender Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 16, 2009 Report Share Posted January 16, 2009 I've never intentionally mirrored anyone, but I am aware if I accidently do, or if they are mirroring me I am usually aware of it. If for example they seem to pick up their drink everytime I pick up mine, I usually spot that one. > > Mirroring can be used to create a rapport. Usually mirroring is done > unconsciously when a person mimics the body language and postures of someone they > are interacting with. In this case it is a sign of liking the person. On there > other hand, it could be abused by someone who actively mirrors a mark to gain > their trust. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 16, 2009 Report Share Posted January 16, 2009 I am not always aware of how my facial expressions are coming across, I know I have perfected a confused look, because in face to face interaction it usually causes the other to clarify without me having to ask. I know my eye contact is certainly not good, I have improved on it a bit, but I still find it quite uncomfortable to give and keep up with. . > > > It also helps to store those pieces away and use them with other > > people. A great many interactive gestures, facial expressions, and > > body language are from other people and in some cases even TV or > > movies. > > Sorry, I meant to say " a great many of my interactive gestures " , etc. > > Frozen fingers, frozen brain. > -- > Mike > > > In the end the journey only matters if you've helped someone along > the way. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 16, 2009 Report Share Posted January 16, 2009 > I am not always aware of how my facial expressions are coming across, > I know I have perfected a confused look, because in face to face > interaction it usually causes the other to clarify without me having > to ask. I know my eye contact is certainly not good, I have improved > on it a bit, but I still find it quite uncomfortable to give and keep > up with. One of the things I did years ago, and still sometimes do today, is practice my expressions in a mirror. A book like this helps a lot: http://shorterlink.org/4524 " The Artist's Complete Guide to Facial Expression " It has pictures like this in it: http://shorterlink.org/4526 It sound corny and you'll likely feel strange if anybody catches you doing it but learning to mimic the expressions from these pictures or similar ones helps a lot. (This is where observing people constantly also helps.) Or at least it has helped me a lot for a good long while now. -- Mike In the end the journey only matters if you've helped someone along the way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 16, 2009 Report Share Posted January 16, 2009 Thanks for the info'/links. > One of the things I did years ago, and still sometimes do today, is > practice my expressions in a mirror. > > A book like this helps a lot: > > http://shorterlink.org/4524 > > " The Artist's Complete Guide to Facial Expression " > > It has pictures like this in it: > > http://shorterlink.org/4526 > > It sound corny and you'll likely feel strange if anybody catches you > doing it but learning to mimic the expressions from these pictures or > similar ones helps a lot. (This is where observing people constantly > also helps.) > > Or at least it has helped me a lot for a good long while now. > -- > Mike > > > In the end the journey only matters if you've helped someone along > the way. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 16, 2009 Report Share Posted January 16, 2009 "I've been reading a book about interaction. I can't say I agree with everything in it, especially when it says research has shown that people who do not like to be touched are less intelligent." I cannot say whether or not this is valid as a general thing, but I poted an article a while back http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/FAMSecretSociety/message/40426 Post 40426 that said there is a new test coing out for autistics called the Raven test which seeks to eliminate biases in regular IQ tests. It said: http://www.newsweek.com/id/32250 The Puzzle of Hidden Ability "The disparity in scores was striking. One autistic child's Wechsler result meant he was mentally retarded (an IQ below 70); his Raven's put him in the 94th percentile. Overall, the autistics (all had full-blown autism, not Asperger's) scored around the 30th percentile on the Wechsler, which corresponds to "low average" IQ. But they averaged in the 56th percentile on the Raven's. Not a single autistic child scored in the "high intelligence" range on the Wechsler; on the Raven's, one third did. Healthy children showed no such disparity." By contrast, on a Wechler, only about 10% of respondants (autistic or non-autistic) score in the above average to genius range. Thus we can say two things: 1) 1/3 of all autistics surveyed present with superior intelligence to that of NTs on the Raven scale. 2) And since many of us intelligent autistic folk do not like touched the commentay you read is wrong, at least as far as it pertains to the 1/3 of intelligent autistics. But of course, since 1/3 of autistics are average according to the Raven scale and 1/3 below average, it would indicate that a sizable amount of autistics (albeit a minority) do not like to be touched AND are indeed unintelligent. You said: "More annoyingly is that it doesn't seem to cite this research. The book was writen in 1980's and I got it from a charity shop. Those were more primative days anyway. There was only autism in the DSM . No spectrum disorders. In fact, many of the disorders besides autism spectrum disorders that we know of today were not delineated then in either the DSM or the ICD."Anyways it mentioned mirroring people, which I have heard of before and says you are likely to get on better with someone if you mirror them. I just wondered has anyone tried this? and if so did you think it helped? Anyone have any thoughts on this?" That concept played to a tried but failed idea of that day and age, which was that if you encouraged a socially inept or introverted person to interact with social extroverts, the behavior of the extroverts would rub off onto the introverts and consciously and/or unconsciously be absorbed by them. If you read the writings of Fossey and Godall however, which has been available to the public for years, you will find that clueless apes who try to integrate through immitation of their peers are more heavily shunned because their peers recognize immediately that they are clueless no matter how social they try to be. Humans tend to be "intelligent" which means rejection is masked more. What you will find is that when someone says "We should get together in a month or so and go somewhere" and you call them up in a month or so, they will be busy, and they will continue to be busy no matter how often you call them up until you cease to call, and then you will never hear from them again. I have never had success with miming social interaction. Sometimes I will watch others and how they make eye contact, in what way, and for how long, and under what circumstances, and will do the exact same thing in the exact same way under the exact same circumstances and get told by one "What are you starring at?" even as another might be saying "Why do you look so quickly at me and then glance away?" Ask yourself if you have ever seen socially accepted friends ask these questions of one another when they stare too long or not long enough, and you will know that you have already been excluded if you are spoken to this way. Somehow, despite your attempt to be social, they have already identified you as someone to be excluded. Administrator Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 16, 2009 Report Share Posted January 16, 2009 " Why do adult always tell kids to " play fair " and " treat others fairly " when they know that real world isn't fair and seldom gives anyone an even brake. " I sorry that got close to some of my misplaced buttons... Just ignore me... " I've noticed the hypocrisy too and it bothers me a lot too. Adminsitrator Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 16, 2009 Report Share Posted January 16, 2009 " When you take all these things and blend them together you can almost always provide at least an interactive profile that the majority will find inoffensive because it consists of things they've already dealt with. " But what they have is a representation of what you have seen or witnessed someone else doing, or what you have seen on TV. Where is the REAL you? I resent having to ape someone else's behavior and be accepted on THAT basis alone rather than on who I am, what I believe, and what I have to say. I can be the most trustworthy person in the world with loads of integrity, but if I cannot look someone in the eye for not too long a time or not too short a time, then I am not worth knowing at all. Viewed in this light, body language and tone of voice and all that is just one big passport to get you over a line into their personal sphere. Think about how weak that is: " Let's see, your resume says you've gone to college and got a " B " average. Your master's and doctoral theses were supurb. I see you got an honorable discharge from the military, and climbed up the corporate ladder to become a mid-level executive during which you cut costs in your unit by 25% while increasing efficiency by 30% and now you want this new upper-level position?...Hmm...Well...You can't make eye contact and you have a tendency to stand too close or too far away when I'm talking to you. Sorry, you are out of the running. I'm going to get ex-fratboy with a C- average to take the position. " Administrator Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 16, 2009 Report Share Posted January 16, 2009 " I am surrounded by mostly NT's in this world so at times perhaps it is helpful to speak their language? " Raven and I were at a convention these past two days. Perhaps she will tell some stories about it here, but suffice it to say that it seemed to me that the more she dumbed down her talk, the more success she had interacting with people. This leads me to believe that they key to successful interaction with NTs is to act stupid. There was a woman there who was able to pick up a different guy each night to take back to her hotel room. Took her less than half and hour each time, and she seemed to get the guy of her choosing. Absolute airhead, but a predatory airhead. In other words, she seemed to know that if she acted the way a guy thought a sleaze should act, she stood a good chance of picking one up in less than half an hour. She was right. This leads me to believe that they key to successful interaction with people I'd want to go to bed with (if I were of that disposition) is to act like a dumb jock with an itchy jock strap. With certain parents, they like to do two things mostly: 1) Complain about what a burden their kids are, or 2) Talk about them in a cutesy fashion as though they are dogs learning new tricks. If I talk about the latest research with them, their eyes glaze over and they try to change the subject. But if I sympathize with their " plight " or share what they think are amusing stories about autistics (but which are really stories about autistics trying to connect with their parents but being misinterpreted by clueless parents) I'm their new best friend. This leads me to believe that they key to successful interaction with certain parents of autistics is to act like I know autistic kids are the biggest burden there is...except when they are being the lovable dopey lunkheads they are. Administrator Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 16, 2009 Report Share Posted January 16, 2009 " I've never intentionally mirrored anyone, but I am aware if I accidently do, or if they are mirroring me I am usually aware of it. If for example they seem to pick up their drink everytime I pick up mine, I usually spot that one. " I've often question why they are picking up the drink when I pick up mine. I think it is either because we have been talking and now it is time to quench a dry throat, or they are formulating a response to something I have said, or they do not know what to say and so they are reverting to an oral fixation, or maybe they are just thirsty, but I also think they do it because it is part of the social experience - simply doing the same thing at the same time with someone else. I do seem to irk people though because I tend not to care what someone else is doing, I just do whatever I feel like doing. Administrator Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 16, 2009 Report Share Posted January 16, 2009 On Jan 16, 2009, at 3:55 PM 1/16/09, environmental1st2003 wrote: > > > " When you take all these things and blend them together you can almost > always provide at least an interactive profile that the majority will > find inoffensive because it consists of things they've already dealt > with. " > > But what they have is a representation of what you have seen or > witnessed someone else doing, or what you have seen on TV. Where is > the REAL you? And that's what they need to communicate. We've been over this with the whole mask discussion. You're the one trying to communicate and for that you need a way to talk to them not because you don't know how to communicate but because _they_ don't. > I resent having to ape someone else's behavior and be accepted on > THAT basis alone rather than on who I am, what I believe, and what I > have to say. Tough. Sorry but we're the minority even if we've all got better abilities in some ways. So far the only minority that consistently molds the majority are the top 2% with all the wealth. Understanding of who the real person is comes _after_ communication. Remember what I said about how I thought that those of us that are AS think faster than the average? Would you be able to judge the personal state of a hummingbird that quickly flitted into your face? That's part of how the majority see us. We move and think and talk too quickly for them when we choose to communicate. We're too precise. Their interface is sloppy and requires almost an insane amount of undocumented protocol - almost to the point of complicated tribal dancing. Don't do that right and they pick up a spear... > I can be the most trustworthy person in the world with loads of > integrity, but if I cannot look someone in the eye for not too long a > time or not too short a time, then I am not worth knowing at all. Yes because you're not wearing the right paint on your face and not dancing the right moves. C'mon ! The majority of people are animalistic in nature and you don't expect them to not have their own pack communication protocols? Their own set of howls, grunts, scents, and footwork? > Viewed in this light, body language and tone of voice and all that is > just one big passport to get you over a line into their personal > sphere. Yes. Yes it is. But consider that you have those passport requirements and they're much more strict than theirs. Any AS individual does. They're just different than the majority. I'm no exception. > Think about how weak that is: > > " Let's see, your resume says you've gone to college and got a " B " > average. Your master's and doctoral theses were supurb. I see you got > an honorable discharge from the military, and climbed up the > corporate ladder to become a mid-level executive during which you cut > costs in your unit by 25% while increasing efficiency by 30% and now > you want this new upper-level position?...Hmm...Well...You can't make > eye contact and you have a tendency to stand too close or too far > away when I'm talking to you. Sorry, you are out of the running. I'm > going to get ex-fratboy with a C- average to take the position. " Allow me to translate: " Well you seem to show promise as a hunter. You've killed a lot of mammoth, defended your clan and village from wolves, and even slew the last attackers that tried to loot your tribe. Unfortunately you're not wearing the sacred symbols nor do you know the holy prayers and worse yet you smell different! I won't allow you to trade with us! " -- Mike In the end the journey only matters if you've helped someone along the way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 16, 2009 Report Share Posted January 16, 2009 wrote: " ... <snip> ... I resent having to ape someone else's behavior and be accepted on THAT basis alone rather than on who I am, what I believe, and what I have to say ... <snip> ... " Mike responded: " ... <snip> ... Tough. Sorry but we're the minority even if we've all got better abilities in some ways. So far the only minority that consistently molds the majority are the top 2% with all the wealth ... <snip> ... " I just spent 2 days at a Conference where artists (music, theatre, comedy, etc.), agents, producers and venue operators were meeting to feel each other out for potential business 'fits.' I attended 36 showcases, 3 workshops, a lunch meeting, a breakfast meeting (more on this in another post), 2 music jams, 2 contact lounge interactions (3 hours each) and a CD launch. OK, that's not everything I had to cover but those were the most important activities I had to attend to and then I managed to fit in secondary business-related activities into the mix. I do not want to speak ill of the less talented in music or in marketing (and trust me, there were many who at the event who are less talented than I in both respects) but a certain type of individual seemed to stand out in the crowd. It wasn't the individual with the most honed, professional talents but rather the individual who could: 1. mug to this or her audience the best; 2. play to the vanities of those who followed them; 3. schmooze insincerely with those who " may " want to avail themselves of their services at some later nebulous date; and 4. outlast everyone else when it came to the most debauched activities. Now I happen to value self-respect and self-confidence over those four points and so it doesn't bother me too much that I am not part of the majority. That being said, I am bothered by the fact that I must feign a certain amount of majoritarianism in order to fit in to that world and get jobs done that need to be done. I remember realizing 25 or so years ago that once an individual can fake sincerity, that individual has it made! My opinion with regards to faking sincerity has not changed in all that time. Raven Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 16, 2009 Report Share Posted January 16, 2009 > That being said, I am bothered by the fact that I must feign a > certain amount of majoritarianism in order to fit in to that world > and get jobs done that need to be done. > > I remember realizing 25 or so years ago that once an individual can > fake sincerity, that individual has it made! My opinion with regards > to faking sincerity has not changed in all that time. It's not a matter of faking sincerity it's a matter of communicating using their protocols. There are ways to show that you disagree with them that will not set them off. If you learn their protocols you never have to lie to them if you don't want to because they understand the emotion and the information behind the protocol. Apeing is not a matter of being insincere but a matter of talking to them using their own language. Once you learn the language then you can say anything you want. You'll never be a native (no loss there as far as I'm concerned) but you won't be a " foreigner " either. Think of it as learning to trade with an alien species. -- Mike In the end the journey only matters if you've helped someone along the way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 16, 2009 Report Share Posted January 16, 2009 Mike wrote: " ... <snip> ... It's not a matter of faking sincerity it's a matter of communicating using their protocols ... <snip> ... " In other situations, I would agree with you, Mike, but we're taking the Arts Industry here and faking sincerity is the most effective tool used by most of those who achieve serious success in the industry. Faking sincerity is their protocol because most everything in the industry is about smoke-and-mirrors presentation. Raven Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 16, 2009 Report Share Posted January 16, 2009 You said: "When you take all these things and blend them together you can almost always provide at least an interactive profile that the majority will find inoffensive because it consists of things they've already dealt with." I replied:"But what they have is a representation of what you have seen or witnessed someone else doing, or what you have seen on TV. Where is the REAL you?" You said: "And that's what they need to communicate. We've been over this with the whole mask discussion."You're the one trying to communicate and for that you need a way to talk to them not because you don't know how to communicate but because _they_ don't." My reply: I hear what you are saying and understand it. I suppose I have an additional problem that clouds my way of looking at things. This problem would be that despite the fact that my father's side of the family are mostly of the hillbilly variety, he went to one of the top ten Ivy League colleges and so when his friends were over, it was only intelligent discourse that took place. (If you have a TV and have watched network news in the US, then you have seen his friends.) These people were not interested in HOW something was said but WHAT was said. There were no difficulties commicating with any of THEM. It's only when I encounter less educated people that I find myself stymied communication-wise because they are NOT interested in what you say but HOW you say it or how LOUD. I have been drowned out of conversations because for this second set of (largely uneducated) people, the person who shouts the loudest is the person who knows what they are talking about...even if they do not know what they are talking about. These are the sort of people who believe that the king of the hill is the one who punches everyone else who tries to get on top of it. I said: "I resent having to ape someone else's behavior and be accepted on THAT basis alone rather than on who I am, what I believe, and what I have to say." You replied:"Tough. Sorry but we're the minority even if we've all got better abilities in some ways. So far the only minority that consistently molds the majority are the top 2% with all the wealth." To which I say: That is incorrect. The media is not stupid. They are great manipulators. Watch the news. How many times have you seen 'And now we go to our special correspondant who will give us his views on the subject..."? Have you ever stopped to wonder how this "speacial correspondant" got that designation and wondered what resume allows him to express his/her opinion and why it is we should take what this special correspondant is saying as fact when it could be uninformed speculation or conjecture? Then there are commercial advertisers, fashion designers, and engineers. A woman can look in her closet today and see that what she bought as little as two years ago is now "out of style." What was once advertised as a car with a "futuristic" and "innovative" design, such as the Ford Taurus (which spearheaded the drive to produce rounded cars in the US) in the late 80's becomes old hat in five years. Then there are quack doctors and metaphyisical idiots, such as Doctor Dwayne Dwyer who believe that a good mental outlook is the key to good health, yet he is apparently unaware that with each new PBS special he does he looks more and more like a skeletal old man with bad posture who is shrinking in height before his time. And which guy was it who died of a heart attack after spending the later part of his life promoting a special diet of his own design? All these people are intelligent and make suckers out of the less than intelligent, and some of these people are despicable creatures if you meet them in person. Remember the days when if you didn't have an alligator on your T-shirt you were a social reject? How about the days when giant triangular collars were in? Or when asbestos was the most ideal insulation? Then there are doctors. Back in the early 1900s, smoking was often prescribed for pregnant women because it supposedly calmed them down. It is the most educated people in the world who influence all of society and if you want proof of that, just see what people do these days when there is a power outage in a major city. No one knows what to do with themselves and so nine months later there is a mini baby boom. But what if Edison had never invented the light bulb and gave up after his third try instead of his two thousandth odd? Unless someone else developed Edison's gumption between then and now, no one alive would be using anything besides kerosene lamps to see by. Or what if no one had figured out how to produce alternate current instead of direct? No one would have an automatic dishwasher, or washing machine, and the whole computer revolution would never have taken place. Now let's consider what kind of people these are in real life. They are eccentrics, or know-it-alls, or in the case of fashion designers, they are stereotypically thought to be effeminate and (probably gay) males. It is not HOW they said or did things nevertheless. It was their persistence in getting their points or products across or whether or not what they invented was flashy enough to appeal to the saps who would shell out for their products or services. I just came back from a convention where a bunch of musicians were showing off their talents or lack thereof so that major venues in the greater Toronto area could decide whether or not to book them. Some of these acts have albums and have toured the bar circuit and some larger venues. Despite all the glamour they show on stage, what venue owners are looking for is raw talent combined with superb technical execution and a bit of showmanship thrown in for good measure, and if you haven't got that, you are out of consideration for hire. Last night I was watching a band perform. Very good technically speaking, but too much like AC/DC to be original. They MAY get hired by some venues because they do appeal to people. But there were those who were trying to get "bought" based purely on their image, and these folks were the ones who were ignored by industry people. Which all goes to show that when the chips are down, intelligence and skill are what are wanted the most IF the job that is open is vital to the success of the larger venture. In other words, anyone with a happy face and vacuous brains can be hired for a bank teller's job, but you want to make sure the teller manager is no fool. HOWEVER, there is of course another way to get hired, and that would be to sleep your way to where you want to be. (Casting couch, etc.) By the way, something you may want to keep in mind is that seldom will a person be "noticed" by a promoter and suddenly be made famous. They way it works is: Someone recognizes your skill and talent and the next thing that happens is that they design a look for you and tell you what attitude you are going to have and that is what you do for the rest of your career. Exceptions to this rule are acts like Madonna and Britney Spears although they are often managed the same way. Anytime a managed musician alters their look, chances are the record companies and promoters told them it's time to "evolve." You may say, what about Millie Vanilli? How did they get big. They obviously had no talent since they were lip syncers. Millie Vanilli got big because they could dance well and lip sync better than others. That was THEIR skill and talent. "Understanding of who the real person is comes _after_ communication. Remember what I said about how I thought that those of us that are AS think faster than the average? Would you be able to judge the personal state of a hummingbird that quickly flitted into your face?" My reply: A good point. But I guess I just feel that if I have to step over too many hurdles to inform someone of useful knowledge upon which their future may depend, I'm going to give it up if they value my personality more than my wisdom. After a certain point, I simply do not care about reaching the other person, and this has yet to come back to haunt me in a negative way. I have discovered that cutting people off is usually to my advantage rather than to my disadvantage except in the case of cutting off intelligent people. I can gain plenty of "contacts" and "associates" by "networking" yet these contacts and associates have seldom been able to produce anything for me that is of advantage to me. Usually I am the one doing the producing, and they are the ones benefitting from my endeavors. You said:"That's part of how the majority see us. We move and think and talk too quickly for them when we choose to communicate. We're too precise. Their interface is sloppy and requires almost an insane amount of undocumented protocol - almost to the point of complicated tribal dancing. Don't do that right and they pick up a spear..." My reply: Then maybe they should apply themselves and wise up. Here is the odd thing...as much as we Aspies will try to mime/mimic other people in order to attempt to communicate with them, we don't often see other people busting their brains to attempt to understand us. Yet they are the ones who stand to benefit the most from an interaction with us. I said:"I can be the most trustworthy person in the world with loads of integrity, but if I cannot look someone in the eye for not too long a time or not too short a time, then I am not worth knowing at all." You replied:"Yes because you're not wearing the right paint on your face and not dancing the right moves. C'mon ! The majority of people are animalistic in nature and you don't expect them to not have their own pack communication protocols? Their own set of howls, grunts,scents, and footwork?" My reply: A valid point. To take that one step further, why should I EXPECT that any of these people should convert to my own pack protocols as you call them? Yet I think most people must be inherently stupid. Einstein creates a series of theories, the result of which enables society to create a power source that will provide energy for all the world for a comparatively low volume of waste in exchange. With very little squabbling over resources, this means that future wars over oil could be prevented, and what happens? The lesser fry scientists are hired by the world's governments to produce a nuclear bomb which promptly gets dropped on Hiroshima and incites a race to nuclear bomb supremacy among the world's superpowers and a desire for every other country to aquire the bomb. And since then a bunch of atomic bomb protesters and environmentalists have prevented any new nuclear power facilities from being built in the US. Meanwhile in Canada, THEIR reactors are humming along and providing a decent level of power to the majority of its citizens at an operating cost less to any seen in the US, and with its citizens seeing lower electric bills than citizens in the US getting their energy from coal fired plants. In fact, most of the air pollution in Canada comes from coal fired plants in the US expelling smoke into the air which drifts into Canada. More reactors are being built in Canada and more are on the drawing board. So Canada gets cleaner and purer air, cheaper electricity than anything we pay for in the US, and all because a bunch of uneducated people in the US can't grasp the concept that nuclear reactors don't mean nuclear warheads or a gigantic mess of crawling nuclear waste. That Canada can have nuclear power without nuclear warheads means that any country COULD in theory do it. There are people in the US who get more radiation from the radon in their basements in one year than then they get from X-rays over the course of their entire lifetime, and these people, statistically speaking, have an infinitesimal chance of being exposed to a reactor meltdown. Gee whiz. Doesn't it seem like the brainy people ought to be listened to a wee bit closer? Don't they have a bit more to offer society than the folks who are less intelligent? I said:"Viewed in this light, body language and tone of voice and all that is just one big passport to get you over a line into their personal sphere."You replied: "Yes. Yes it is. But consider that you have those passport requirements and they're much more strict than theirs. Any AS individual does. They're just different than the majority. I'm noexception." My reply: Asking them to have a greater intelligence that they have is an impossibility, just like asking us to suddenly acquire a social IQ is an impossibility. We CAN learn certain social techniques, but we ill never be perfect. And they CAN absorb more knowledge if they try, but will never be Einsteins. Yet WE are the ones who have to accommodate them. I find this odd for one reason and one reason alone: If you go into a parking lot, more often than not, the handicapped space is empty. Most of the time when it is filled, there is a person who has a handicapped sticker on their car or license plate, but not always. But the lack of filled handicapped spaces suggests that there are very few handicapped people driving in proportion to all the other spaces in the lot which may be filled to the brim with cars. That society would make such an allowance for such a small minority -and not for us- is surprising. But then again, most signs marking handicapped spaces have this additional message attached "Fine for non-handicapped vehicles." So maybe to get people to listen to us what we have to do is get a law passed making it illegal to ignore autistics. I said:"Let's see, your resume says you've gone to college and got a "B" average. Your master's and doctoral theses were supurb. I see you got an honorable discharge from the military, and climbed up the corporate ladder to become a mid-level executive during which you cut costs in your unit by 25% while increasing efficiency by 30% and now you want this new upper-level position?...Hmm...Well...You can't make eye contact and you have a tendency to stand too close or too far away when I'm talking to you. Sorry, you are out of the running. I'm going to get ex-fratboy with a C- average to take the position."You said:"Well you seem to show promise as a hunter. You've killed a lot of mammoth, defended your clan and village from wolves, and even slew the last attackers that tried to loot your tribe. Unfortunately you're not wearing the sacred symbols nor do you know the holy prayers and worse yet you smell different! I won't allow you to trade with us!"Yup. Administrator Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 16, 2009 Report Share Posted January 16, 2009 > Mike wrote: " ... <snip> ... It's not a matter of faking sincerity > it's > a matter of communicating using their protocols ... <snip> ... " > > In other situations, I would agree with you, Mike, but we're taking > the > Arts Industry here and faking sincerity is the most effective tool > used > by most of those who achieve serious success in the industry. Faking > sincerity is their protocol because most everything in the industry is > about smoke-and-mirrors presentation. Just another protocol - i.e. you didn't do the sacred dance. You don't have to lie. That's the biggest complaint I've heard about communicating with other people by any other AS person I've met. It seems like you _have_ to lie to them to get anything done. You don't. They _will_ accept the truth but it's got to be put to them via their communication channels and that means using their protocols. Unfortunately this takes far more time than is...efficient...as far as one of us would be concerned. But there's no way to rush the process unfortunately without them shouting " Infidel! " in their mind and then ignoring you or attacking you. The first thing I do when communicating with people like that is small talk. Regardless what you might think this is an _essential_ task because it shows you their mannerisms, their speech patterns, and gives you a peek at their " tribal customs " so to speak. Compliment something about them, ask about their family or if they have one, comment on the number of people at the conference - anything but the subject you want to know about. Avoid anything that might even possibly be considered controversial. The second thing I do is feed their customs back to them one at a time. S-L-O-W-L-Y. Read the reaction to each item and assess if it's positive or negative. When you have a good amount of that data then you start attaching your own data to those items and use them to build a sort of " bridge translator " to get from point A to point B. (Like I said - it's a slow process.) They will eventually accept the data but it's darn hard sometimes. :-( Over time you'll likely find, as I have, that many of the protocols you pick up are fairly common between people. At that point it's kind of like playing Mr. Potatohead in that you pick the right parts out of the bag for the person you're dealing with. -- Mike In the end the journey only matters if you've helped someone along the way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 17, 2009 Report Share Posted January 17, 2009 " There are ways to show that you disagree with them that will not set them off. If you learn their protocols you never have to lie to them if you don't want to because they understand the emotion and the information behind the protocol. " I grew inpatient with that sort of thing in grade school though. Ever hear this phrase soken by a fellow classmate " I don't get it! " ? A teacher can stand in front of the classroom and give a lecture to thirty kids and then hand out a test. Why is it I got the A's and other people didn't? The only thing I can figure is that I listened whereas they did not, or else they had some sort of learning disability. One thing you might want to do is ask anyone who you know what the capital of Canada is. Cances are they will say Toronto, Montreal, or Calgary. Maybe even Winnepeg. Guess what? It's Ottawa, and this would have been taught to most of us in social studies class when they covered North America back in grade school or middle school. Many people in the United States cannot find the United States on a globe devoid of countries' names on it, and many cannot find their own state on a map of the United States. Why should this be? There was more likely than not a globe in every classroom. Don't they watch the weather reports and see all the states outlined from the west coast to the east and their state in relation to all these other states? Haven't they opened a road map and seen what the adjacent states are? Haven't they ever looked in an atlas? Where were these people when all these maps were in their midst either in the form of a globe, a map, a telecast, or what have you? Were they turned in another direction that they have not -in their lifetime- seen where their state or country is in relation to the world? Now how am I to communicate with these people? Am I supposed to be their pocket teacher and re-teach them something that they should have learned decades ago in their youth? Doesn't that detract from the conversation a bit? Yet it seems that if I am so outgoing as to suggest that these people elevate themselves to the above the skating-through-life-by-the seat-of- my-pants level of education, then I am thought to be in the wrong and some sort of arrogant prig??? It's insane. By rights these people ought to be strung up by their toes and whipped with a wet noodle. But personally I think the best way to combat this sort of ignorance is to make them see themselves the way I see them. Otherwise they will have no incentive to improve themselves and will therefore only succeed in taking others down with them. Look at the way any riot begins. Does everyone at one collective moment reach for a weapon and start vandalizing, looting, and hurting other people? Nope. One person starts...a " gang " is formed, and then it's " every man for himself " (and isn't it ironic that it's mostly men who riot and loot, not women? -must be another social thing). But if someone would have gunned down the first looter on sight, that would have stopped the whole riot methinks. Then there would have been civil order instead of civil unrest, and at the cost of one life. Instead, no one has the guts to shoot dead the first offender and so millions of dollars in damages to physical property are incurred and more millions in medical costs from wounded people and hundreds of thousands expended in sending cops out to try and contain the riot. Administrator Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 17, 2009 Report Share Posted January 17, 2009 " Over time you'll likely find, as I have, that many of the protocols you pick up are fairly common between people. At that point it's kind of like playing Mr. Potatohead in that you pick the right parts out of the bag for the person you're dealing with. " Mike, none of the stuff you have suggested here has ever worked for me and I have never seen it work for Raven either, and I have yet to encounter an Aspie who has had success with any of those techniques. It's all nice in theory but does not work it practice. Administrator Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 17, 2009 Report Share Posted January 17, 2009 On Jan 16, 2009, at 6:04 PM 1/16/09, environmental1st2003 wrote: > > > " Over time you'll likely find, as I have, that many of the protocols > you pick up are fairly common between people. At that point it's > kind of like playing Mr. Potatohead in that you pick the right parts > out of the bag for the person you're dealing with. " > > Mike, none of the stuff you have suggested here has ever worked for me > and I have never seen it work for Raven either, and I have yet to > encounter an Aspie who has had success with any of those techniques. > > It's all nice in theory but does not work it practice. I'm living proof. But it's plain that your experiences are vastly different from mine so you're not going to accept my data in any form. I was typing up a detailed response to your previous post but frankly I think that's a waste of my time. Another thing I've learned is when to stop trying to convince someone. I'll say this last thing and then drop this - until you learn to paint the tribal paint, pray the tribal prayer, or dance the sacred dance you will constantly encounter problems communicating with NT people. You said that it's the intelligent and educated that change the world. That's true regardless of if the education is formal or not. But for the world to know about them they had to communicate the ideas to someone. And to do that effectively they had to learn to dance the sacred dance at least once. -- Mike In the end the journey only matters if you've helped someone along the way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 17, 2009 Report Share Posted January 17, 2009 " I'm living proof. But it's plain that your experiences are vastly different from mine so you're not going to accept my data in any form. " And yet I shake your hand and bow my head. Congratulations! However, your success has not been the case with me. Administrator Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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