Re:This is why ABA does not work

[Guest guest]

environmenta1st2003 wrote:

" This is why ABA does not work

Father and Son

" MY boy, " said an aged Father to his fiery and disobedient Son, " a

hot temper is the soil of remorse. Promise me that when next you

are angry you will count one hundred before you move or speak. "

No sooner had the Son promised than he received a stinging blow

from the paternal walking-stick, and by the time he had counted to

seventy-five had the unhappiness to see the old man jump into a

waiting cab and whirl away. "

Um... okay. I understand that ABA stands for Applied Behavior Analysis, which

looking up the term tells me is a common treatment for childhood autism these

days. I can also understand how people who see as as a viable, if different,

viewpoint—-and not something to be " cured " --might distrust ABA as a concept.

(I share the opinion that I don't need a " cure, " by the way, and I have been

officially diagnosed with Aspergers.) Maybe I'm a bit slow today, though: I

don't see what ABA, or a distrust of it, has to do with this anecdote. Would you

please explain what you're trying to say a bit more clearly?

Ek mun þola. (I shall endure [Old Norse]).

Per chevron erminois and argent, a chevron azure and in base a serpent nowed

gules

The greatest school of magic is life itself; the strongest spell, the one you

cast yourself.

[Guest guest]

I said:

" This is why ABA does not work

Regarding the following anecdote:

Father and Son

" MY boy, " said an aged Father to his fiery and disobedient Son, " a

hot temper is the soil of remorse. Promise me that when next you

are angry you will count one hundred before you move or speak. "

No sooner had the Son promised than he received a stinging blow

from the paternal walking-stick, and by the time he had counted to

seventy-five had the unhappiness to see the old man jump into a

waiting cab and whirl away. "

Kolduine said:

" Um... okay. I understand that ABA stands for Applied Behavior

Analysis, which looking up the term tells me is a common treatment

for childhood autism these days. I can also understand how people who

see as as a viable, if different, viewpoint-and not something to

be " cured " --might distrust ABA as a concept.

" (I share the opinion that I don't need a " cure, " by the way, and I

have been officially diagnosed with Aspergers.) Maybe I'm a bit slow

today, though: I don't see what ABA, or a distrust of it, has to do

with this anecdote. Would you please explain what you're trying to

say a bit more clearly? "

Tom replies:

From those who have actually ben through ABA programs, I have been

told that it has a way of pulling the carpet out from under you just

as you get your balance. " Behave and you will be treated well.

Misbehave, and you will be treated poorly. "

The thing is, even when you behave and are treated well, you are

still regarded with disdain for being so flawed as to have to be in

the ABA program to begin with, and so despite the performing the

circus acts to be a better autistic, the autistic is still slapped in

the face metaphorically speaking even if they have not been slapped

in the face for real, as many who have endured ABA have reported.

Administrator

[Guest guest]

That's interesting. Another example of the hypocrisy of "those who care." Sad thing is, they probably don't even realize how full of it they are, telling everyone else that they have to love and tolerate everyone else, while they themselves harbor some really nasty feelings about others.

In a message dated 8/26/2008 1:02:38 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, no_reply writes:

The thing is, even when you behave and are treated well, you are still regarded with disdain for being so flawed as to have to be in the ABA program to begin with, and so despite the performing the circus acts to be a better autistic, the autistic is still slapped in the face metaphorically speaking even if they have not been slapped in the face for real, as many who have endured ABA have reported.AdministratorIt's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find your travel deal here.

[Guest guest]

Okay, that makes more sense. Thank you.

> Tom replies:

>

> From those who have actually ben through ABA programs, I have been

> told that it has a way of pulling the carpet out from under you just

> as you get your balance. " Behave and you will be treated well.

> Misbehave, and you will be treated poorly. "

>

> The thing is, even when you behave and are treated well, you are

> still regarded with disdain for being so flawed as to have to be in

> the ABA program to begin with, and so despite the performing the

> circus acts to be a better autistic, the autistic is still slapped in

> the face metaphorically speaking even if they have not been slapped

> in the face for real, as many who have endured ABA have reported.

>

>

> Administrator

>

[Guest guest]

> In a message dated 8/26/2008 1:02:38 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

> no_reply writes:

>

> The thing is, even when you behave and are treated well, you are

> still regarded with disdain for being so flawed as to have to be

in

> the ABA program to begin with, and so despite the performing the

> circus acts to be a better autistic, the autistic is still slapped

in

> the face metaphorically speaking even if they have not been

slapped

> in the face for real, as many who have endured ABA have reported.

>

>

> Administrator

>

mimi adds. ABA teaches a human to behave as a trained pet. not from

common trust or respect but as a non-sentient being. ABA molds a

behavior it doesn't " teach " one anything. If anything I think the

crux is the inferred mistrust. The ABA e (if you will) is taught an

automon set of behaviors, easy to distinguish fromnatural reactions

to events. There is discordant reality in the movements and

behaviors. It worked for potty training Ravi (notice the word

training) In all other intances I explain why one behavior is better

than another (in my opinion a parent's role) It is harder because I

have to wait real time for the right moment to explain and often it

takes several " experiences " to get it understood. But this method

teaches consequence while allowing the child to mature at their own

rate. ABA is effective for dogs (food rewards are used) this always

irked me. A child is given an MnM or some other edible to change

behavior. As in asking another child their name or saying please and

thank-you. In addition while our children are trained to be perfect

versions of society that same society derides them for their

manners.

My child is taught " personal space at school " In order not to invade

another, while every other child that is typical paws everything in

sight. My child is a qusimoto (feared, for his potential to do harm,

and his awkward mannerisms) While NT children hide behinh their

normalness to commit all manner of crime.

By the way hello to all and I will try to catch up now that school

has started. mimi

[Guest guest]

" My child is taught " personal space at school " In order not to invade

another, while every other child that is typical paws everything in

sight. My child is a qusimoto (feared, for his potential to do harm,

and his awkward mannerisms) While NT children hide behinh their

normalness to commit all manner of crime. "

That's an interesting point. Lots of times I see NTs misbehaving in

ways worse than autistics do, but no one comes down hard in these NT

kids. Why the disparity? Could it be...PREJUDICE AGAINST PEOPLE WHO ARE

DIFFERENT?

" By the way hello to all and I will try to catch up now that school

has started. mimi "

Good. We've missed your comments.

Administrator

[Guest guest]

>

> That's an interesting point. Lots of times I see NTs misbehaving in

> ways worse than autistics do, but no one comes down hard in these NT

> kids. Why the disparity? Could it be...PREJUDICE AGAINST PEOPLE WHO

ARE

> DIFFERENT?

>

> Administrator

>

I see that all the time my son is " forced, Drilled " to have

exceptional manners. While his NT peers may do as they please. " They

are just being kids " while my son and many other are displaying

" autistic behaviors " . In truth I don't mind Ravi being taught manners

but I have requested less time in the typical classroom (and I have

said it is because there is a lack of carry through.

and thanks

[Guest guest]

" My child is taught " personal space at school " In order not to

invade another, while every other child that is typical paws

everything in sight. My child is a qusimoto (feared, for his

potential to do harm, and his awkward mannerisms) While NT children

hide behinh their normalness to commit all manner of crime. "

Oh I can saddly relate to that :-(

>

> > In a message dated 8/26/2008 1:02:38 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

> > no_reply writes:

> >

> > The thing is, even when you behave and are treated well, you are

> > still regarded with disdain for being so flawed as to have to be

> in

> > the ABA program to begin with, and so despite the performing the

> > circus acts to be a better autistic, the autistic is still

slapped

> in

> > the face metaphorically speaking even if they have not been

> slapped

> > in the face for real, as many who have endured ABA have

reported.

> >

> >

> > Administrator

> >

> mimi adds. ABA teaches a human to behave as a trained pet. not

from

> common trust or respect but as a non-sentient being. ABA molds a

> behavior it doesn't " teach " one anything. If anything I think the

> crux is the inferred mistrust. The ABA e (if you will) is taught

an

> automon set of behaviors, easy to distinguish fromnatural reactions

> to events. There is discordant reality in the movements and

> behaviors. It worked for potty training Ravi (notice the word

> training) In all other intances I explain why one behavior is

better

> than another (in my opinion a parent's role) It is harder because

I

> have to wait real time for the right moment to explain and often it

> takes several " experiences " to get it understood. But this method

> teaches consequence while allowing the child to mature at their own

> rate. ABA is effective for dogs (food rewards are used) this

always

> irked me. A child is given an MnM or some other edible to change

> behavior. As in asking another child their name or saying please

and

> thank-you. In addition while our children are trained to be

perfect

> versions of society that same society derides them for their

> manners.

>

> My child is taught " personal space at school " In order not to

invade

> another, while every other child that is typical paws everything in

> sight. My child is a qusimoto (feared, for his potential to do

harm,

> and his awkward mannerisms) While NT children hide behinh their

> normalness to commit all manner of crime.

>

> By the way hello to all and I will try to catch up now that school

> has started. mimi

>

[Guest guest]

Personal space varies from place to place and culture to culture. More rural settings tend to have larger personal spaces while more urban ones have much smaller zones. In the South, we typically have a person zone of arm's length or so, at least in the more rural areas. You can usually tell a city person because they get closer to you than that. In high school, we had some students from Taiwan and Japan, from the big cities there. They would get practically in your face as in elbow length or so and think nothing of it. Some cultures will also touch the person they are talking to, which is something I would hate.

I too had seen normal kids get away with a lot, but if I acted up, I would get hammered. That was really unfair, but it also taught me not to act out.

"My child is taught "personal space at school" In order not to invade another, while every other child that is typical paws everything in sight. My child is a qusimoto (feared, for his potential to do harm, and his awkward mannerisms) While NT children hide behinh their normalness to commit all manner of crime."Oh I can saddly relate to that :-(Psssst...Have you heard the news? There's a new fashion blog, plus the latest fall trends and hair styles at StyleList.com.

[Guest guest]

" Some cultures will also touch the person they are talking to, which

is something I would hate. "

That happens quite a lot here, 'touchy feely' people as I refer to

them and I really do dislike it, intensly. Most people who know me

know not to touch me and that I do not appreciate such, nor do I

personally consider it a sign of affection, which I know for many it

is.

>

> Personal space varies from place to place and culture to culture.

More rural

> settings tend to have larger personal spaces while more urban ones

have much

> smaller zones. In the South, we typically have a person zone of

arm's length

> or so, at least in the more rural areas. You can usually tell a

city person

> because they get closer to you than that. In high school, we had

some

> students from Taiwan and Japan, from the big cities there. They

would get

> practically in your face as in elbow length or so and think nothing

of it. Some

> cultures will also touch the person they are talking to, which is

something I would

> hate.

>

> I too had seen normal kids get away with a lot, but if I acted up,

I would

> get hammered. That was really unfair, but it also taught me not to

act out.

>

>