Guest guest Posted September 4, 2001 Report Share Posted September 4, 2001 Hi everyone, I just spent the long weekend with my nada to go to a family wedding. My husband and I drove up to her house and the four of us (nada + stepfather) drove together (4 hour drive) to the wedding, and spent the 3 days together. This was my first time being with her since I've learned about BPD (as well as other personality disorders--she seems to be narcissistic and avoidant as well) and recognized her in it. I was so nervous before the trip but she more or less behaved herself (no rages). What I'm struggling with now is just this whole stream of emotions. I feel like I stayed pretty emotionally detached and observed for the most part (this was a big, important first!). Then all these emotions came up for me afterwards like what was discussed on some posts at the end of last week about feeling guilty or like I've betrayed her by acknowledging and trying to come to terms with the abuse. Then, there's this whole part of me that doubts things. Is she really THAT bad? I feel like, even after all this work with my counselor that I'm still lacking a good gauge or sense of what normal behavior looks like. Does that make any sense? It's like when she's not raging, and being more or less normal, I start to think that maybe I've exaggerated the bad times, and that maybe this is just how mothers are sometimes...the nagging, criticizing, controlling, or that they lose it every once in a while. I know in my head that's not right, but with all these questions and coming to terms swimming aorund in my head, I get really confused. Then I feel like I don't have any sense of what normal is. I do have friends who have fairly positive relationships with their mothers who will complain from time to time that their mother nags them or criticizes them, so then this part of me comes up questioning where is the line. I mean is she just nagging, or is this the same old controlling/no way but her way thing that gets so sick and twisted? I feel so confused. Examples this weekend: We went driving around the lake, and then stopped to walk around. I had worn sandals...she started in that I should have worn tennis shoes, not sandals, so we could walk. I just said calmly that I didn't know we'd be walking, but I was fine in my sandals. Within the next five minutes, she said it two more times... " You should have worn tennis shoes. " I just ignored her and she stopped. We were all eating some hard candy. I was chewing mine and she started in: " Suck the candy, don't chew it!--you'll ruin your teeth! " I just ignored her and she didn't say anything else. My husband and I recently moved to a house with a garage. She started asking if we'd gotten everything cleared out so we could park the car in the garage. I said no, we're still using it for storage. She said that we better get it cleaned out so we can park the car inside when it starts raining. I just calmly said, we'll see if we use it for storage or for the car, when we get some time. She then went on this list of all the reasons of how the paint job will last longer, we won't have to get in the rain, etc., and on and on and on about why we needed to clean out the garage and park the car in there. Over and over again. SHe probably brought it up 4 times over the weekend. I just stayed detached and said " I know it would be a good idea, I just think we might need the space for storage, so we'll see. " She just goes off on anyone and everyone else for how they look or act: so-and-so gained weight, so-and-so sure is unattractive, so-and-so really is a jerk but at least she spoke to me this time, he sure is cheap, just like his mother, she sure parties a lot, etc., etc., etc. She went on and on ripping on everyone, but at least it was in private (in the car), not in loud voice in public like she's done before. The ironic thing is that my mom is not some svelte, beautiful person. She's probably 50 lbs. overweight herself etc. (Not that this makes someone attractive or not...but just trying to catch the irony). She had one close call rage with my stepfather where she asked him where we were going (he was driving) and he was trying to explain the route and she wasn't following so she screamed a short tirade at him, " Whatever, oh yeah, that's what I meant, just go on and on explaining like I understand that, blah, blah, blah! " She was all red and seething but quietly at least (she sort of contains herself around my husband) and about 10 minutes later, acted like nothing had happened. She told me some story about a little girl at the school where she works part-time whose mother is a drug addict and abusive to the girl. As she's telling the story, there's NO compassion for the little girl, just deragotory things like well, she's just a little ragamuffin, she steals, lies, and is dirty! Then she ends her story with, " Some people are so unworthy of motherhood! " My stomach seriously heaved and I just tried to think of other things. I mean what do you say to that to a BP mother? Anyway, just trying to make sense of all this. This probably reads like random ramblings. Can anyone offer any insight about trying to come to terms with all this? As I write this, I'm actually embarrassed because I'm 31 years old and I realize that I let her nag me as if I were a child. How do you get a gauge of what's normal? Is this all totally bizarre or more or less normal? Thanks for any insights. Aimee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 4, 2001 Report Share Posted September 4, 2001 Hi everyone, I just spent the long weekend with my nada to go to a family wedding. My husband and I drove up to her house and the four of us (nada + stepfather) drove together (4 hour drive) to the wedding, and spent the 3 days together. This was my first time being with her since I've learned about BPD (as well as other personality disorders--she seems to be narcissistic and avoidant as well) and recognized her in it. I was so nervous before the trip but she more or less behaved herself (no rages). What I'm struggling with now is just this whole stream of emotions. I feel like I stayed pretty emotionally detached and observed for the most part (this was a big, important first!). Then all these emotions came up for me afterwards like what was discussed on some posts at the end of last week about feeling guilty or like I've betrayed her by acknowledging and trying to come to terms with the abuse. Then, there's this whole part of me that doubts things. Is she really THAT bad? I feel like, even after all this work with my counselor that I'm still lacking a good gauge or sense of what normal behavior looks like. Does that make any sense? It's like when she's not raging, and being more or less normal, I start to think that maybe I've exaggerated the bad times, and that maybe this is just how mothers are sometimes...the nagging, criticizing, controlling, or that they lose it every once in a while. I know in my head that's not right, but with all these questions and coming to terms swimming aorund in my head, I get really confused. Then I feel like I don't have any sense of what normal is. I do have friends who have fairly positive relationships with their mothers who will complain from time to time that their mother nags them or criticizes them, so then this part of me comes up questioning where is the line. I mean is she just nagging, or is this the same old controlling/no way but her way thing that gets so sick and twisted? I feel so confused. Examples this weekend: We went driving around the lake, and then stopped to walk around. I had worn sandals...she started in that I should have worn tennis shoes, not sandals, so we could walk. I just said calmly that I didn't know we'd be walking, but I was fine in my sandals. Within the next five minutes, she said it two more times... " You should have worn tennis shoes. " I just ignored her and she stopped. We were all eating some hard candy. I was chewing mine and she started in: " Suck the candy, don't chew it!--you'll ruin your teeth! " I just ignored her and she didn't say anything else. My husband and I recently moved to a house with a garage. She started asking if we'd gotten everything cleared out so we could park the car in the garage. I said no, we're still using it for storage. She said that we better get it cleaned out so we can park the car inside when it starts raining. I just calmly said, we'll see if we use it for storage or for the car, when we get some time. She then went on this list of all the reasons of how the paint job will last longer, we won't have to get in the rain, etc., and on and on and on about why we needed to clean out the garage and park the car in there. Over and over again. SHe probably brought it up 4 times over the weekend. I just stayed detached and said " I know it would be a good idea, I just think we might need the space for storage, so we'll see. " She just goes off on anyone and everyone else for how they look or act: so-and-so gained weight, so-and-so sure is unattractive, so-and-so really is a jerk but at least she spoke to me this time, he sure is cheap, just like his mother, she sure parties a lot, etc., etc., etc. She went on and on ripping on everyone, but at least it was in private (in the car), not in loud voice in public like she's done before. The ironic thing is that my mom is not some svelte, beautiful person. She's probably 50 lbs. overweight herself etc. (Not that this makes someone attractive or not...but just trying to catch the irony). She had one close call rage with my stepfather where she asked him where we were going (he was driving) and he was trying to explain the route and she wasn't following so she screamed a short tirade at him, " Whatever, oh yeah, that's what I meant, just go on and on explaining like I understand that, blah, blah, blah! " She was all red and seething but quietly at least (she sort of contains herself around my husband) and about 10 minutes later, acted like nothing had happened. She told me some story about a little girl at the school where she works part-time whose mother is a drug addict and abusive to the girl. As she's telling the story, there's NO compassion for the little girl, just deragotory things like well, she's just a little ragamuffin, she steals, lies, and is dirty! Then she ends her story with, " Some people are so unworthy of motherhood! " My stomach seriously heaved and I just tried to think of other things. I mean what do you say to that to a BP mother? Anyway, just trying to make sense of all this. This probably reads like random ramblings. Can anyone offer any insight about trying to come to terms with all this? As I write this, I'm actually embarrassed because I'm 31 years old and I realize that I let her nag me as if I were a child. How do you get a gauge of what's normal? Is this all totally bizarre or more or less normal? Thanks for any insights. Aimee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 4, 2001 Report Share Posted September 4, 2001 Hi everyone, I just spent the long weekend with my nada to go to a family wedding. My husband and I drove up to her house and the four of us (nada + stepfather) drove together (4 hour drive) to the wedding, and spent the 3 days together. This was my first time being with her since I've learned about BPD (as well as other personality disorders--she seems to be narcissistic and avoidant as well) and recognized her in it. I was so nervous before the trip but she more or less behaved herself (no rages). What I'm struggling with now is just this whole stream of emotions. I feel like I stayed pretty emotionally detached and observed for the most part (this was a big, important first!). Then all these emotions came up for me afterwards like what was discussed on some posts at the end of last week about feeling guilty or like I've betrayed her by acknowledging and trying to come to terms with the abuse. Then, there's this whole part of me that doubts things. Is she really THAT bad? I feel like, even after all this work with my counselor that I'm still lacking a good gauge or sense of what normal behavior looks like. Does that make any sense? It's like when she's not raging, and being more or less normal, I start to think that maybe I've exaggerated the bad times, and that maybe this is just how mothers are sometimes...the nagging, criticizing, controlling, or that they lose it every once in a while. I know in my head that's not right, but with all these questions and coming to terms swimming aorund in my head, I get really confused. Then I feel like I don't have any sense of what normal is. I do have friends who have fairly positive relationships with their mothers who will complain from time to time that their mother nags them or criticizes them, so then this part of me comes up questioning where is the line. I mean is she just nagging, or is this the same old controlling/no way but her way thing that gets so sick and twisted? I feel so confused. Examples this weekend: We went driving around the lake, and then stopped to walk around. I had worn sandals...she started in that I should have worn tennis shoes, not sandals, so we could walk. I just said calmly that I didn't know we'd be walking, but I was fine in my sandals. Within the next five minutes, she said it two more times... " You should have worn tennis shoes. " I just ignored her and she stopped. We were all eating some hard candy. I was chewing mine and she started in: " Suck the candy, don't chew it!--you'll ruin your teeth! " I just ignored her and she didn't say anything else. My husband and I recently moved to a house with a garage. She started asking if we'd gotten everything cleared out so we could park the car in the garage. I said no, we're still using it for storage. She said that we better get it cleaned out so we can park the car inside when it starts raining. I just calmly said, we'll see if we use it for storage or for the car, when we get some time. She then went on this list of all the reasons of how the paint job will last longer, we won't have to get in the rain, etc., and on and on and on about why we needed to clean out the garage and park the car in there. Over and over again. SHe probably brought it up 4 times over the weekend. I just stayed detached and said " I know it would be a good idea, I just think we might need the space for storage, so we'll see. " She just goes off on anyone and everyone else for how they look or act: so-and-so gained weight, so-and-so sure is unattractive, so-and-so really is a jerk but at least she spoke to me this time, he sure is cheap, just like his mother, she sure parties a lot, etc., etc., etc. She went on and on ripping on everyone, but at least it was in private (in the car), not in loud voice in public like she's done before. The ironic thing is that my mom is not some svelte, beautiful person. She's probably 50 lbs. overweight herself etc. (Not that this makes someone attractive or not...but just trying to catch the irony). She had one close call rage with my stepfather where she asked him where we were going (he was driving) and he was trying to explain the route and she wasn't following so she screamed a short tirade at him, " Whatever, oh yeah, that's what I meant, just go on and on explaining like I understand that, blah, blah, blah! " She was all red and seething but quietly at least (she sort of contains herself around my husband) and about 10 minutes later, acted like nothing had happened. She told me some story about a little girl at the school where she works part-time whose mother is a drug addict and abusive to the girl. As she's telling the story, there's NO compassion for the little girl, just deragotory things like well, she's just a little ragamuffin, she steals, lies, and is dirty! Then she ends her story with, " Some people are so unworthy of motherhood! " My stomach seriously heaved and I just tried to think of other things. I mean what do you say to that to a BP mother? Anyway, just trying to make sense of all this. This probably reads like random ramblings. Can anyone offer any insight about trying to come to terms with all this? As I write this, I'm actually embarrassed because I'm 31 years old and I realize that I let her nag me as if I were a child. How do you get a gauge of what's normal? Is this all totally bizarre or more or less normal? Thanks for any insights. Aimee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 4, 2001 Report Share Posted September 4, 2001 Aimee, I certainly understand how hard it is to define " normal " . I am expecially used to making excuses for people who don't act " normal " . But that is what we were taught by our nada's - accept their behavior and make excuses for them, (like it is our fault!). So, I think that what you are going through is pretty normal after finding out about bpd, and then being with your nada again. Everything looks a little different, and second guessing whether it was really that bad was very common for me. And since nada rewrote history constantly, my memories were always wrong anyway, so I learned to mistrust my own feelings telling me " it hurts " . For a long time I believed that I was the one that wasn't normal. I learned the following after some time: If it makes me feel bad, anxious, nervous, sad, hurt etc then that behavior is not " normal " for a mother. My friends whose mothers are " normal " do criticize, nag, worry on occassion. The difference is that in context, my friends are not " afraid " of their mothers. They had enough kindness and love, that when they get nagged a bit, criticized a bit, they just shrug it off, " that's mom, always worried about my shoes, you'd think I was 5 " . These mothers listen to their daughters, and care about their feelings. Would I treat my child like that? This works whether you have children or not. If you wouldn't do that to your child, then it shouldn't be acceptable for it to be done to you. People with normal mothers don't worry about how their mother is going to act, whether or not she will rage, criticize or somehow embarrass or humuliate you. That you worry about how she acts is a sign that her behavior isn't normal at all. I remember that when I still spoke with my nada, and would tell her that she hurt my feelings, her answer was that " it wasn't that bad " and that " you are soooo sensitive " . In fact for a long time I was completely insensitive since I had turned off my feelings for so long to cope with the constant " abuse " . Once these feelings turned on again, I really was unable to put up with nada's antics. I knew it was wrong, I knew it hurt, I knew it wasn't " normal " to feel that way around my nada. Trust your feelings, if it doesn't feel right, then it probably isn't right. Best Regards, --- aim71098@... wrote: > > Hi everyone, > > I just spent the long weekend with my nada to go to > a family wedding. My > husband and I drove up to her house and the four of > us (nada + stepfather) > drove together (4 hour drive) to the wedding, and > spent the 3 days together. > This was my first time being with her since I've > learned about BPD (as well > as other personality disorders--she seems to be > narcissistic and avoidant as > well) and recognized her in it. I was so nervous > before the trip but she > more or less behaved herself (no rages). What I'm > struggling with now is > just this whole stream of emotions. I feel like I > stayed pretty emotionally > detached and observed for the most part (this was a > big, important first!). > Then all these emotions came up for me afterwards > like what was discussed on > some posts at the end of last week about feeling > guilty or like I've betrayed > her by acknowledging and trying to come to terms > with the abuse. Then, > there's this whole part of me that doubts things. > Is she really THAT bad? I > feel like, even after all this work with my > counselor that I'm still lacking > a good gauge or sense of what normal behavior looks > like. Does that make any > sense? It's like when she's not raging, and being > more or less normal, I > start to think that maybe I've exaggerated the bad > times, and that maybe this > is just how mothers are sometimes...the nagging, > criticizing, controlling, or > that they lose it every once in a while. I know in > my head that's not right, > but with all these questions and coming to terms > swimming aorund in my head, > I get really confused. Then I feel like I don't > have any sense of what > normal is. I do have friends who have fairly > positive relationships with > their mothers who will complain from time to time > that their mother nags them > or criticizes them, so then this part of me comes up > questioning where is the > line. I mean is she just nagging, or is this the > same old controlling/no way > but her way thing that gets so sick and twisted? I > feel so confused. > > Examples this weekend: > > We went driving around the lake, and then stopped to > walk around. I had worn > sandals...she started in that I should have worn > tennis shoes, not sandals, > so we could walk. I just said calmly that I didn't > know we'd be walking, but > I was fine in my sandals. Within the next five > minutes, she said it two more > times... " You should have worn tennis shoes. " I just > ignored her and she > stopped. > > We were all eating some hard candy. I was chewing > mine and she started in: > " Suck the candy, don't chew it!--you'll ruin your > teeth! " I just ignored her > and she didn't say anything else. > > My husband and I recently moved to a house with a > garage. She started asking > if we'd gotten everything cleared out so we could > park the car in the garage. > I said no, we're still using it for storage. She > said that we better get it > cleaned out so we can park the car inside when it > starts raining. I just > calmly said, we'll see if we use it for storage or > for the car, when we get > some time. She then went on this list of all the > reasons of how the paint > job will last longer, we won't have to get in the > rain, etc., and on and on > and on about why we needed to clean out the garage > and park the car in there. > Over and over again. SHe probably brought it up 4 > times over the weekend. > I just stayed detached and said " I know it would be > a good idea, I just think > we might need the space for storage, so we'll see. " > > She just goes off on anyone and everyone else for > how they look or act: > so-and-so gained weight, so-and-so sure is > unattractive, so-and-so really is > a jerk but at least she spoke to me this time, he > sure is cheap, just like > his mother, she sure parties a lot, etc., etc., etc. > She went on and on > ripping on everyone, but at least it was in private > (in the car), not in loud > voice in public like she's done before. The ironic > thing is that my mom is > not some svelte, beautiful person. She's probably > 50 lbs. overweight herself > etc. (Not that this makes someone attractive or > not...but just trying to > catch the irony). > > She had one close call rage with my stepfather where > she asked him where we > were going (he was driving) and he was trying to > explain the route and she > wasn't following so she screamed a short tirade at > him, " Whatever, oh yeah, > that's what I meant, just go on and on explaining > like I understand that, > blah, blah, blah! " She was all red and seething but > quietly at least (she > sort of contains herself around my husband) and > about 10 minutes later, acted > like nothing had happened. > > She told me some story about a little girl at the > school where she works > part-time whose mother is a drug addict and abusive > to the girl. As she's > telling the story, there's NO compassion for the > little girl, just deragotory > things like well, she's just a little ragamuffin, > she steals, lies, and is > dirty! Then she ends her story with, " Some people > are so unworthy of > motherhood! " My stomach seriously heaved and I just > tried to think of other > things. I mean what do you say to that to a BP > mother? > > Anyway, just trying to make sense of all this. This > probably reads like > random ramblings. Can anyone offer any insight > about trying to come to terms > with all this? As I write this, I'm actually > embarrassed because I'm 31 > years old and I realize that I let her nag me as if > I were a child. How do > you get a gauge of what's normal? Is this all > totally bizarre or more or > less normal? Thanks for any insights. > > Aimee > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > __________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 4, 2001 Report Share Posted September 4, 2001 Aimee, I certainly understand how hard it is to define " normal " . I am expecially used to making excuses for people who don't act " normal " . But that is what we were taught by our nada's - accept their behavior and make excuses for them, (like it is our fault!). So, I think that what you are going through is pretty normal after finding out about bpd, and then being with your nada again. Everything looks a little different, and second guessing whether it was really that bad was very common for me. And since nada rewrote history constantly, my memories were always wrong anyway, so I learned to mistrust my own feelings telling me " it hurts " . For a long time I believed that I was the one that wasn't normal. I learned the following after some time: If it makes me feel bad, anxious, nervous, sad, hurt etc then that behavior is not " normal " for a mother. My friends whose mothers are " normal " do criticize, nag, worry on occassion. The difference is that in context, my friends are not " afraid " of their mothers. They had enough kindness and love, that when they get nagged a bit, criticized a bit, they just shrug it off, " that's mom, always worried about my shoes, you'd think I was 5 " . These mothers listen to their daughters, and care about their feelings. Would I treat my child like that? This works whether you have children or not. If you wouldn't do that to your child, then it shouldn't be acceptable for it to be done to you. People with normal mothers don't worry about how their mother is going to act, whether or not she will rage, criticize or somehow embarrass or humuliate you. That you worry about how she acts is a sign that her behavior isn't normal at all. I remember that when I still spoke with my nada, and would tell her that she hurt my feelings, her answer was that " it wasn't that bad " and that " you are soooo sensitive " . In fact for a long time I was completely insensitive since I had turned off my feelings for so long to cope with the constant " abuse " . Once these feelings turned on again, I really was unable to put up with nada's antics. I knew it was wrong, I knew it hurt, I knew it wasn't " normal " to feel that way around my nada. Trust your feelings, if it doesn't feel right, then it probably isn't right. Best Regards, --- aim71098@... wrote: > > Hi everyone, > > I just spent the long weekend with my nada to go to > a family wedding. My > husband and I drove up to her house and the four of > us (nada + stepfather) > drove together (4 hour drive) to the wedding, and > spent the 3 days together. > This was my first time being with her since I've > learned about BPD (as well > as other personality disorders--she seems to be > narcissistic and avoidant as > well) and recognized her in it. I was so nervous > before the trip but she > more or less behaved herself (no rages). What I'm > struggling with now is > just this whole stream of emotions. I feel like I > stayed pretty emotionally > detached and observed for the most part (this was a > big, important first!). > Then all these emotions came up for me afterwards > like what was discussed on > some posts at the end of last week about feeling > guilty or like I've betrayed > her by acknowledging and trying to come to terms > with the abuse. Then, > there's this whole part of me that doubts things. > Is she really THAT bad? I > feel like, even after all this work with my > counselor that I'm still lacking > a good gauge or sense of what normal behavior looks > like. Does that make any > sense? It's like when she's not raging, and being > more or less normal, I > start to think that maybe I've exaggerated the bad > times, and that maybe this > is just how mothers are sometimes...the nagging, > criticizing, controlling, or > that they lose it every once in a while. I know in > my head that's not right, > but with all these questions and coming to terms > swimming aorund in my head, > I get really confused. Then I feel like I don't > have any sense of what > normal is. I do have friends who have fairly > positive relationships with > their mothers who will complain from time to time > that their mother nags them > or criticizes them, so then this part of me comes up > questioning where is the > line. I mean is she just nagging, or is this the > same old controlling/no way > but her way thing that gets so sick and twisted? I > feel so confused. > > Examples this weekend: > > We went driving around the lake, and then stopped to > walk around. I had worn > sandals...she started in that I should have worn > tennis shoes, not sandals, > so we could walk. I just said calmly that I didn't > know we'd be walking, but > I was fine in my sandals. Within the next five > minutes, she said it two more > times... " You should have worn tennis shoes. " I just > ignored her and she > stopped. > > We were all eating some hard candy. I was chewing > mine and she started in: > " Suck the candy, don't chew it!--you'll ruin your > teeth! " I just ignored her > and she didn't say anything else. > > My husband and I recently moved to a house with a > garage. She started asking > if we'd gotten everything cleared out so we could > park the car in the garage. > I said no, we're still using it for storage. She > said that we better get it > cleaned out so we can park the car inside when it > starts raining. I just > calmly said, we'll see if we use it for storage or > for the car, when we get > some time. She then went on this list of all the > reasons of how the paint > job will last longer, we won't have to get in the > rain, etc., and on and on > and on about why we needed to clean out the garage > and park the car in there. > Over and over again. SHe probably brought it up 4 > times over the weekend. > I just stayed detached and said " I know it would be > a good idea, I just think > we might need the space for storage, so we'll see. " > > She just goes off on anyone and everyone else for > how they look or act: > so-and-so gained weight, so-and-so sure is > unattractive, so-and-so really is > a jerk but at least she spoke to me this time, he > sure is cheap, just like > his mother, she sure parties a lot, etc., etc., etc. > She went on and on > ripping on everyone, but at least it was in private > (in the car), not in loud > voice in public like she's done before. The ironic > thing is that my mom is > not some svelte, beautiful person. She's probably > 50 lbs. overweight herself > etc. (Not that this makes someone attractive or > not...but just trying to > catch the irony). > > She had one close call rage with my stepfather where > she asked him where we > were going (he was driving) and he was trying to > explain the route and she > wasn't following so she screamed a short tirade at > him, " Whatever, oh yeah, > that's what I meant, just go on and on explaining > like I understand that, > blah, blah, blah! " She was all red and seething but > quietly at least (she > sort of contains herself around my husband) and > about 10 minutes later, acted > like nothing had happened. > > She told me some story about a little girl at the > school where she works > part-time whose mother is a drug addict and abusive > to the girl. As she's > telling the story, there's NO compassion for the > little girl, just deragotory > things like well, she's just a little ragamuffin, > she steals, lies, and is > dirty! Then she ends her story with, " Some people > are so unworthy of > motherhood! " My stomach seriously heaved and I just > tried to think of other > things. I mean what do you say to that to a BP > mother? > > Anyway, just trying to make sense of all this. This > probably reads like > random ramblings. Can anyone offer any insight > about trying to come to terms > with all this? As I write this, I'm actually > embarrassed because I'm 31 > years old and I realize that I let her nag me as if > I were a child. How do > you get a gauge of what's normal? Is this all > totally bizarre or more or > less normal? Thanks for any insights. > > Aimee > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > __________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 4, 2001 Report Share Posted September 4, 2001 Hi! Nada's have told us all our lives that we were imagining things, or that we had an overactive imagination. That we saw things differently then others, etc.... What you are feeling is normal. We are soooo hopeful, and have been consistantly disappointed. Seeing nada have a " normal'' day is one of the god sent days we used to hope for. Irony... I gave that up.... no one in my family understood it. ;0) re: confused Hi everyone, I just spent the long weekend with my nada to go to a family wedding. My husband and I drove up to her house and the four of us (nada + stepfather) drove together (4 hour drive) to the wedding, and spent the 3 days together. This was my first time being with her since I've learned about BPD (as well as other personality disorders--she seems to be narcissistic and avoidant as well) and recognized her in it. I was so nervous before the trip but she more or less behaved herself (no rages). What I'm struggling with now is just this whole stream of emotions. I feel like I stayed pretty emotionally detached and observed for the most part (this was a big, important first!). Then all these emotions came up for me afterwards like what was discussed on some posts at the end of last week about feeling guilty or like I've betrayed her by acknowledging and trying to come to terms with the abuse. Then, there's this whole part of me that doubts things. Is she really THAT bad? I feel like, even after all this work with my counselor that I'm still lacking a good gauge or sense of what normal behavior looks like. Does that make any sense? It's like when she's not raging, and being more or less normal, I start to think that maybe I've exaggerated the bad times, and that maybe this is just how mothers are sometimes...the nagging, criticizing, controlling, or that they lose it every once in a while. I know in my head that's not right, but with all these questions and coming to terms swimming aorund in my head, I get really confused. Then I feel like I don't have any sense of what normal is. I do have friends who have fairly positive relationships with their mothers who will complain from time to time that their mother nags them or criticizes them, so then this part of me comes up questioning where is the line. I mean is she just nagging, or is this the same old controlling/no way but her way thing that gets so sick and twisted? I feel so confused. Examples this weekend: We went driving around the lake, and then stopped to walk around. I had worn sandals...she started in that I should have worn tennis shoes, not sandals, so we could walk. I just said calmly that I didn't know we'd be walking, but I was fine in my sandals. Within the next five minutes, she said it two more times... " You should have worn tennis shoes. " I just ignored her and she stopped. We were all eating some hard candy. I was chewing mine and she started in: " Suck the candy, don't chew it!--you'll ruin your teeth! " I just ignored her and she didn't say anything else. My husband and I recently moved to a house with a garage. She started asking if we'd gotten everything cleared out so we could park the car in the garage. I said no, we're still using it for storage. She said that we better get it cleaned out so we can park the car inside when it starts raining. I just calmly said, we'll see if we use it for storage or for the car, when we get some time. She then went on this list of all the reasons of how the paint job will last longer, we won't have to get in the rain, etc., and on and on and on about why we needed to clean out the garage and park the car in there. Over and over again. SHe probably brought it up 4 times over the weekend. I just stayed detached and said " I know it would be a good idea, I just think we might need the space for storage, so we'll see. " She just goes off on anyone and everyone else for how they look or act: so-and-so gained weight, so-and-so sure is unattractive, so-and-so really is a jerk but at least she spoke to me this time, he sure is cheap, just like his mother, she sure parties a lot, etc., etc., etc. She went on and on ripping on everyone, but at least it was in private (in the car), not in loud voice in public like she's done before. The ironic thing is that my mom is not some svelte, beautiful person. She's probably 50 lbs. overweight herself etc. (Not that this makes someone attractive or not...but just trying to catch the irony). She had one close call rage with my stepfather where she asked him where we were going (he was driving) and he was trying to explain the route and she wasn't following so she screamed a short tirade at him, " Whatever, oh yeah, that's what I meant, just go on and on explaining like I understand that, blah, blah, blah! " She was all red and seething but quietly at least (she sort of contains herself around my husband) and about 10 minutes later, acted like nothing had happened. She told me some story about a little girl at the school where she works part-time whose mother is a drug addict and abusive to the girl. As she's telling the story, there's NO compassion for the little girl, just deragotory things like well, she's just a little ragamuffin, she steals, lies, and is dirty! Then she ends her story with, " Some people are so unworthy of motherhood! " My stomach seriously heaved and I just tried to think of other things. I mean what do you say to that to a BP mother? Anyway, just trying to make sense of all this. This probably reads like random ramblings. Can anyone offer any insight about trying to come to terms with all this? As I write this, I'm actually embarrassed because I'm 31 years old and I realize that I let her nag me as if I were a child. How do you get a gauge of what's normal? Is this all totally bizarre or more or less normal? Thanks for any insights. Aimee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 4, 2001 Report Share Posted September 4, 2001 Hi! Nada's have told us all our lives that we were imagining things, or that we had an overactive imagination. That we saw things differently then others, etc.... What you are feeling is normal. We are soooo hopeful, and have been consistantly disappointed. Seeing nada have a " normal'' day is one of the god sent days we used to hope for. Irony... I gave that up.... no one in my family understood it. ;0) re: confused Hi everyone, I just spent the long weekend with my nada to go to a family wedding. My husband and I drove up to her house and the four of us (nada + stepfather) drove together (4 hour drive) to the wedding, and spent the 3 days together. This was my first time being with her since I've learned about BPD (as well as other personality disorders--she seems to be narcissistic and avoidant as well) and recognized her in it. I was so nervous before the trip but she more or less behaved herself (no rages). What I'm struggling with now is just this whole stream of emotions. I feel like I stayed pretty emotionally detached and observed for the most part (this was a big, important first!). Then all these emotions came up for me afterwards like what was discussed on some posts at the end of last week about feeling guilty or like I've betrayed her by acknowledging and trying to come to terms with the abuse. Then, there's this whole part of me that doubts things. Is she really THAT bad? I feel like, even after all this work with my counselor that I'm still lacking a good gauge or sense of what normal behavior looks like. Does that make any sense? It's like when she's not raging, and being more or less normal, I start to think that maybe I've exaggerated the bad times, and that maybe this is just how mothers are sometimes...the nagging, criticizing, controlling, or that they lose it every once in a while. I know in my head that's not right, but with all these questions and coming to terms swimming aorund in my head, I get really confused. Then I feel like I don't have any sense of what normal is. I do have friends who have fairly positive relationships with their mothers who will complain from time to time that their mother nags them or criticizes them, so then this part of me comes up questioning where is the line. I mean is she just nagging, or is this the same old controlling/no way but her way thing that gets so sick and twisted? I feel so confused. Examples this weekend: We went driving around the lake, and then stopped to walk around. I had worn sandals...she started in that I should have worn tennis shoes, not sandals, so we could walk. I just said calmly that I didn't know we'd be walking, but I was fine in my sandals. Within the next five minutes, she said it two more times... " You should have worn tennis shoes. " I just ignored her and she stopped. We were all eating some hard candy. I was chewing mine and she started in: " Suck the candy, don't chew it!--you'll ruin your teeth! " I just ignored her and she didn't say anything else. My husband and I recently moved to a house with a garage. She started asking if we'd gotten everything cleared out so we could park the car in the garage. I said no, we're still using it for storage. She said that we better get it cleaned out so we can park the car inside when it starts raining. I just calmly said, we'll see if we use it for storage or for the car, when we get some time. She then went on this list of all the reasons of how the paint job will last longer, we won't have to get in the rain, etc., and on and on and on about why we needed to clean out the garage and park the car in there. Over and over again. SHe probably brought it up 4 times over the weekend. I just stayed detached and said " I know it would be a good idea, I just think we might need the space for storage, so we'll see. " She just goes off on anyone and everyone else for how they look or act: so-and-so gained weight, so-and-so sure is unattractive, so-and-so really is a jerk but at least she spoke to me this time, he sure is cheap, just like his mother, she sure parties a lot, etc., etc., etc. She went on and on ripping on everyone, but at least it was in private (in the car), not in loud voice in public like she's done before. The ironic thing is that my mom is not some svelte, beautiful person. She's probably 50 lbs. overweight herself etc. (Not that this makes someone attractive or not...but just trying to catch the irony). She had one close call rage with my stepfather where she asked him where we were going (he was driving) and he was trying to explain the route and she wasn't following so she screamed a short tirade at him, " Whatever, oh yeah, that's what I meant, just go on and on explaining like I understand that, blah, blah, blah! " She was all red and seething but quietly at least (she sort of contains herself around my husband) and about 10 minutes later, acted like nothing had happened. She told me some story about a little girl at the school where she works part-time whose mother is a drug addict and abusive to the girl. As she's telling the story, there's NO compassion for the little girl, just deragotory things like well, she's just a little ragamuffin, she steals, lies, and is dirty! Then she ends her story with, " Some people are so unworthy of motherhood! " My stomach seriously heaved and I just tried to think of other things. I mean what do you say to that to a BP mother? Anyway, just trying to make sense of all this. This probably reads like random ramblings. Can anyone offer any insight about trying to come to terms with all this? As I write this, I'm actually embarrassed because I'm 31 years old and I realize that I let her nag me as if I were a child. How do you get a gauge of what's normal? Is this all totally bizarre or more or less normal? Thanks for any insights. Aimee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 4, 2001 Report Share Posted September 4, 2001 Hi! Nada's have told us all our lives that we were imagining things, or that we had an overactive imagination. That we saw things differently then others, etc.... What you are feeling is normal. We are soooo hopeful, and have been consistantly disappointed. Seeing nada have a " normal'' day is one of the god sent days we used to hope for. Irony... I gave that up.... no one in my family understood it. ;0) re: confused Hi everyone, I just spent the long weekend with my nada to go to a family wedding. My husband and I drove up to her house and the four of us (nada + stepfather) drove together (4 hour drive) to the wedding, and spent the 3 days together. This was my first time being with her since I've learned about BPD (as well as other personality disorders--she seems to be narcissistic and avoidant as well) and recognized her in it. I was so nervous before the trip but she more or less behaved herself (no rages). What I'm struggling with now is just this whole stream of emotions. I feel like I stayed pretty emotionally detached and observed for the most part (this was a big, important first!). Then all these emotions came up for me afterwards like what was discussed on some posts at the end of last week about feeling guilty or like I've betrayed her by acknowledging and trying to come to terms with the abuse. Then, there's this whole part of me that doubts things. Is she really THAT bad? I feel like, even after all this work with my counselor that I'm still lacking a good gauge or sense of what normal behavior looks like. Does that make any sense? It's like when she's not raging, and being more or less normal, I start to think that maybe I've exaggerated the bad times, and that maybe this is just how mothers are sometimes...the nagging, criticizing, controlling, or that they lose it every once in a while. I know in my head that's not right, but with all these questions and coming to terms swimming aorund in my head, I get really confused. Then I feel like I don't have any sense of what normal is. I do have friends who have fairly positive relationships with their mothers who will complain from time to time that their mother nags them or criticizes them, so then this part of me comes up questioning where is the line. I mean is she just nagging, or is this the same old controlling/no way but her way thing that gets so sick and twisted? I feel so confused. Examples this weekend: We went driving around the lake, and then stopped to walk around. I had worn sandals...she started in that I should have worn tennis shoes, not sandals, so we could walk. I just said calmly that I didn't know we'd be walking, but I was fine in my sandals. Within the next five minutes, she said it two more times... " You should have worn tennis shoes. " I just ignored her and she stopped. We were all eating some hard candy. I was chewing mine and she started in: " Suck the candy, don't chew it!--you'll ruin your teeth! " I just ignored her and she didn't say anything else. My husband and I recently moved to a house with a garage. She started asking if we'd gotten everything cleared out so we could park the car in the garage. I said no, we're still using it for storage. She said that we better get it cleaned out so we can park the car inside when it starts raining. I just calmly said, we'll see if we use it for storage or for the car, when we get some time. She then went on this list of all the reasons of how the paint job will last longer, we won't have to get in the rain, etc., and on and on and on about why we needed to clean out the garage and park the car in there. Over and over again. SHe probably brought it up 4 times over the weekend. I just stayed detached and said " I know it would be a good idea, I just think we might need the space for storage, so we'll see. " She just goes off on anyone and everyone else for how they look or act: so-and-so gained weight, so-and-so sure is unattractive, so-and-so really is a jerk but at least she spoke to me this time, he sure is cheap, just like his mother, she sure parties a lot, etc., etc., etc. She went on and on ripping on everyone, but at least it was in private (in the car), not in loud voice in public like she's done before. The ironic thing is that my mom is not some svelte, beautiful person. She's probably 50 lbs. overweight herself etc. (Not that this makes someone attractive or not...but just trying to catch the irony). She had one close call rage with my stepfather where she asked him where we were going (he was driving) and he was trying to explain the route and she wasn't following so she screamed a short tirade at him, " Whatever, oh yeah, that's what I meant, just go on and on explaining like I understand that, blah, blah, blah! " She was all red and seething but quietly at least (she sort of contains herself around my husband) and about 10 minutes later, acted like nothing had happened. She told me some story about a little girl at the school where she works part-time whose mother is a drug addict and abusive to the girl. As she's telling the story, there's NO compassion for the little girl, just deragotory things like well, she's just a little ragamuffin, she steals, lies, and is dirty! Then she ends her story with, " Some people are so unworthy of motherhood! " My stomach seriously heaved and I just tried to think of other things. I mean what do you say to that to a BP mother? Anyway, just trying to make sense of all this. This probably reads like random ramblings. Can anyone offer any insight about trying to come to terms with all this? As I write this, I'm actually embarrassed because I'm 31 years old and I realize that I let her nag me as if I were a child. How do you get a gauge of what's normal? Is this all totally bizarre or more or less normal? Thanks for any insights. Aimee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 5, 2001 Report Share Posted September 5, 2001 , Thank you so much for your response. It was so validating to what I was feeling! I think what really stuck out to me was the fact that I am always worried/anxious about how she will act and that alone is not normal behavior, as is the fact that I don't think most people feel uncomfortable, bad, sad, anxious, etc. MOST if not all of the time around their mothers. The times when I have told her how I felt I literally got the verbatim response you mentioned: you are soooo sensitive. I had a great counseling appointment yesterday also that really helped get clarity. Learning to trust my own feelings, free of my nada, feels really new at times, scary yet wonderful at the same time. I just wanted to say thank you though. Your reply was really helpful. Hugs, Aimee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 5, 2001 Report Share Posted September 5, 2001 , Thank you so much for your response. It was so validating to what I was feeling! I think what really stuck out to me was the fact that I am always worried/anxious about how she will act and that alone is not normal behavior, as is the fact that I don't think most people feel uncomfortable, bad, sad, anxious, etc. MOST if not all of the time around their mothers. The times when I have told her how I felt I literally got the verbatim response you mentioned: you are soooo sensitive. I had a great counseling appointment yesterday also that really helped get clarity. Learning to trust my own feelings, free of my nada, feels really new at times, scary yet wonderful at the same time. I just wanted to say thank you though. Your reply was really helpful. Hugs, Aimee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 5, 2001 Report Share Posted September 5, 2001 , Thank you so much for your response. It was so validating to what I was feeling! I think what really stuck out to me was the fact that I am always worried/anxious about how she will act and that alone is not normal behavior, as is the fact that I don't think most people feel uncomfortable, bad, sad, anxious, etc. MOST if not all of the time around their mothers. The times when I have told her how I felt I literally got the verbatim response you mentioned: you are soooo sensitive. I had a great counseling appointment yesterday also that really helped get clarity. Learning to trust my own feelings, free of my nada, feels really new at times, scary yet wonderful at the same time. I just wanted to say thank you though. Your reply was really helpful. Hugs, Aimee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 5, 2001 Report Share Posted September 5, 2001 , Thanks so much for your response. Giving up that she's ever going to be normal has been my MAJOR work in counseling this summer. It's been really hard but it has been so important. Holding out hope was killing me. This has been a rough summer, but with counseling, these boards, etc., I definitely feel like there is light at the end of the tunnel and it feels so freeing! Thanks again for your reply! Hugs, Aimee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 5, 2001 Report Share Posted September 5, 2001 , Thanks so much for your response. Giving up that she's ever going to be normal has been my MAJOR work in counseling this summer. It's been really hard but it has been so important. Holding out hope was killing me. This has been a rough summer, but with counseling, these boards, etc., I definitely feel like there is light at the end of the tunnel and it feels so freeing! Thanks again for your reply! Hugs, Aimee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 5, 2001 Report Share Posted September 5, 2001 , Thanks so much for your response. Giving up that she's ever going to be normal has been my MAJOR work in counseling this summer. It's been really hard but it has been so important. Holding out hope was killing me. This has been a rough summer, but with counseling, these boards, etc., I definitely feel like there is light at the end of the tunnel and it feels so freeing! Thanks again for your reply! Hugs, Aimee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 5, 2001 Report Share Posted September 5, 2001 Aimee wrote: >She told me some story about a little girl at the school where she works >part-time whose mother is a drug addict and abusive to the girl. As she's >telling the story, there's NO compassion for the little girl, just >deragotory >things like well, she's just a little ragamuffin, she steals, lies, and is >dirty! Then she ends her story with, " Some people are so unworthy of >motherhood! " My stomach seriously heaved and I just tried to think of >other >things. I mean what do you say to that to a BP mother? > Oh wow, my stepnada said something similar to me last time I was at her house for dinner. My sis and my BF were there too, and she and my dad started talking about the disgraceful way a guy who lives in the alley VERBALLY ABUSES his kids. I was flabbergasted, none of us knew what to say (Besides the obvious, " Gee, you mean like you did to us? " which would never do.) I just couldn't believe they could sit there and condemn someone else for doing the very thing she had been doing to us all those years!! Maybe since they have more money than this guy and don't drink or live in a low rent apartment and go to church every Sunday, my parents are exempted from having to treat their kids like human beings?? Un-friggin-believable. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 5, 2001 Report Share Posted September 5, 2001 Aimee wrote: >She told me some story about a little girl at the school where she works >part-time whose mother is a drug addict and abusive to the girl. As she's >telling the story, there's NO compassion for the little girl, just >deragotory >things like well, she's just a little ragamuffin, she steals, lies, and is >dirty! Then she ends her story with, " Some people are so unworthy of >motherhood! " My stomach seriously heaved and I just tried to think of >other >things. I mean what do you say to that to a BP mother? > Oh wow, my stepnada said something similar to me last time I was at her house for dinner. My sis and my BF were there too, and she and my dad started talking about the disgraceful way a guy who lives in the alley VERBALLY ABUSES his kids. I was flabbergasted, none of us knew what to say (Besides the obvious, " Gee, you mean like you did to us? " which would never do.) I just couldn't believe they could sit there and condemn someone else for doing the very thing she had been doing to us all those years!! Maybe since they have more money than this guy and don't drink or live in a low rent apartment and go to church every Sunday, my parents are exempted from having to treat their kids like human beings?? Un-friggin-believable. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 5, 2001 Report Share Posted September 5, 2001 Aimee wrote: >She told me some story about a little girl at the school where she works >part-time whose mother is a drug addict and abusive to the girl. As she's >telling the story, there's NO compassion for the little girl, just >deragotory >things like well, she's just a little ragamuffin, she steals, lies, and is >dirty! Then she ends her story with, " Some people are so unworthy of >motherhood! " My stomach seriously heaved and I just tried to think of >other >things. I mean what do you say to that to a BP mother? > Oh wow, my stepnada said something similar to me last time I was at her house for dinner. My sis and my BF were there too, and she and my dad started talking about the disgraceful way a guy who lives in the alley VERBALLY ABUSES his kids. I was flabbergasted, none of us knew what to say (Besides the obvious, " Gee, you mean like you did to us? " which would never do.) I just couldn't believe they could sit there and condemn someone else for doing the very thing she had been doing to us all those years!! Maybe since they have more money than this guy and don't drink or live in a low rent apartment and go to church every Sunday, my parents are exempted from having to treat their kids like human beings?? Un-friggin-believable. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 5, 2001 Report Share Posted September 5, 2001 Aimee, I can totally relate to your feelings of confusion and wondering if " it was really that bad. " I've been there and done that. I don't know where I found this list, I think maybe it was ' book _The Verbally Abusive Relationship_, but I found it really helpful to post these statements on my mirror where I saw them every morning and read them faithfully. It was sort of surreal at first, and I had to really concentrate and sometimes I only half-believed the statements, but they are now much more internalized and more a part of me. It was sort of like carving a new identity for myself. I can trust my own feelings and perceptions. I am not to blame for being verbally abused. I am not the cause of another’s irritation, anger or rage. I deserve freedom from mental anguish. I can say no to what I do not like or want. I do not have to take it. I am an important human being. I am a worthwhile person. I deserve to be treated with respect. I have power over my own life. I can use my power to take good care of myself. I can decide for myself what is best for me. I can make changes in my life if I want to. I am not alone; I can ask others to help me. I am worth working for and changing for. I deserve to make my own life safe and happy. I can count on my creativity and resourcefulness. Hope this is helpful. Louise Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 6, 2001 Report Share Posted September 6, 2001 Hi Louise, The Verbally Abusive Relationship was the first book I read and changed my life. It validated everything I was going through. After I read that book I knew I wasn't crazy anymore. I thought it was all me - what a relief to discover that who I was the result of what others had been doing to me. Well - sort of. It was also a shock. But well worth it. Thanks for posting those self-affirmations. Cyndie --- Louise Glade wrote: > Aimee, I can totally relate to your feelings of > confusion and wondering > if " it was really that bad. " I've been there and > done that. I don't > know where I found this list, I think maybe it was > ' book > _The Verbally Abusive Relationship_, but I found it > really helpful to > post these statements on my mirror where I saw them > every morning and > read them faithfully. It was sort of surreal at > first, and I had to > really concentrate and sometimes I only > half-believed the statements, > but they are now much more internalized and more a > part of me. It was > sort of like carving a new identity for myself. > > I can trust my own feelings and perceptions. > I am not to blame for being verbally abused. > I am not the cause of another’s irritation, anger or > rage. > I deserve freedom from mental anguish. > I can say no to what I do not like or want. > I do not have to take it. > I am an important human being. > I am a worthwhile person. > I deserve to be treated with respect. > I have power over my own life. > I can use my power to take good care of myself. > I can decide for myself what is best for me. > I can make changes in my life if I want to. > I am not alone; I can ask others to help me. > I am worth working for and changing for. > I deserve to make my own life safe and happy. > I can count on my creativity and resourcefulness. > > > Hope this is helpful. > > Louise > > __________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 7, 2006 Report Share Posted July 7, 2006 Hello friends, Really a bad week . But please, lets stop it. I did respond to Marees post as well, and said what I thought. But that is not wrong. Everybody is allowed to have their own opinions. And all the posts they came in the last days I think a lot have said what they think. We are adults, we are here to help each other. Lets get over it. There are no apologies to make . Sabine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.