RE: TERM Ger>Eng Phänomen des letzten Häutchens

[Guest guest]

In einer eMail vom 05.03.01 07:53:50 (MEZ) Mitteleuropäische Zeit schreibt

translate@...:

> Context (from a report on psoriasis): Das *Phänomen des letzten Häutchens*

> wird durch starkes Kratzen ausgelöst: Die gesamte Schuppenauflagerung kann

> abgehoben werden, bis zum " letzten Häutchen " . Hierbei handelt es sich um

> die letzte, die Papillenspitze überziehende dünne Epidermisschicht.

>

> The meaning is obvious, but what's it called in English? " Last piece of

> skin/membrane phenomenon " doesn't sound plausible.

>

What do you think of *epidermal layer*?

[Guest guest]

Hello :

I would translate this as " the phenomenon of the last epidermal layer " , but

I don't know if this is what physicians actually say. Anyone out there to

confirm it?

Ursula

-----Original Message-----

Context (from a report on psoriasis): Das *Phänomen des letzten Häutchens*

wird durch starkes Kratzen ausgelöst: Die gesamte Schuppenauflagerung kann

abgehoben werden, bis zum " letzten Häutchen " . Hierbei handelt es sich um

die letzte, die Papillenspitze überziehende dünne Epidermisschicht.

The meaning is obvious, but what's it called in English? " Last piece of

skin/membrane phenomenon " doesn't sound plausible.

_________________________________________

Ursula Vielkind, Ph.D.

German/English Translation in Biological Sciences

Dundas, Ontario L9H 3L8, Canada

Tel: +1 Fax: +1

uvielkind@... (NEW!)

uvielk@...

http://hpcaonline.com/urvi.html

_________________________________________

[Guest guest]

At 10:22 AM 03/05/2001, Ursula wrote:

>Hello :

>I would translate this as " the phenomenon of the last epidermal layer " , but

>I don't know if this is what physicians actually say. Anyone out there to

>confirm it?

Off the top of my head, I would say that (at least in English) the answer

is no. (No hits on Google, either.)

But if you could give some more context, maybe we can figure out what it is

that English-speaking physicians *do* say... (I should mention that I know

very little German, so if you have already given the context of this

phrase, it went right over my head!)

Marla

--

Marla J.F. O'Neill, M.D.

Medical Translation & Editing

French/Spanish/Italian>English

mailto:mjfoneill@...

[Guest guest]

Marla, the context was " psoriasis " , where scratching the skin causes removal

of *the last thin layer of epidermis* and finally bleeding. So what do

English speaking physicians call this " phenomenon " ?

Ursula

-----Original Message-----

At 10:22 AM 03/05/2001, Ursula wrote:

>Hello :

>I would translate this as " the phenomenon of the last epidermal layer " , but

>I don't know if this is what physicians actually say. Anyone out there to

>confirm it?

Off the top of my head, I would say that (at least in English) the answer

is no. (No hits on Google, either.)

But if you could give some more context, maybe we can figure out what it is

that English-speaking physicians *do* say... (I should mention that I know

very little German, so if you have already given the context of this

phrase, it went right over my head!)

Marla

[Guest guest]

Hi Ursula,

The phenomenon you describe is called the Auspitz sign.

" The most characteristic sign of psoriasis is the tiny bleeding

marks that its scales leave upon removal (Auspitz sign). "

www.moonland.com/School/CyberMedicine/Pathology.htm

<http://www.moonland.com/School/CyberMedicine/Pathology.htm>

In Spanish: signo del rocío hemorrágico de Auspitz.

Maybe you can find out whether or not Auspitz-Phänomen and

Phänomen des letzten Häutchens are the same at

http://home.t-online.de/home/hi-eddie/medizin/derma.htm

<http://home.t-online.de/home/hi-eddie/medizin/derma.htm>

and

Versucht man die Schuppen zu entfernen, tritt ein glänzendes oberes

Häutchen zutage ( " Phänomen des letzten Häutchens " ).

Regards,

LP

Re: TERM Ger>Eng Phänomen des letzten Häutchens

Marla, the context was " psoriasis " , where scratching the skin causes removal

of *the last thin layer of epidermis* and finally bleeding. So what do

English speaking physicians call this " phenomenon " ?

Ursula

-----Original Message-----

At 10:22 AM 03/05/2001, Ursula wrote:

>Hello :

>I would translate this as " the phenomenon of the last epidermal layer " , but

>I don't know if this is what physicians actually say. Anyone out there to

>confirm it?

Off the top of my head, I would say that (at least in English) the answer

is no. (No hits on Google, either.)

But if you could give some more context, maybe we can figure out what it is

that English-speaking physicians *do* say... (I should mention that I know

very little German, so if you have already given the context of this

phrase, it went right over my head!)

Marla

[Guest guest]

I forgot to add the URL of the last quotation

m-ww.at/krankheiten/hautkrankheiten/schuppenflechte.html

Re: TERM Ger>Eng Phänomen des letzten Häutchens

Marla, the context was " psoriasis " , where scratching the skin causes removal

of *the last thin layer of epidermis* and finally bleeding. So what do

English speaking physicians call this " phenomenon " ?

Ursula

-----Original Message-----

At 10:22 AM 03/05/2001, Ursula wrote:

>Hello :

>I would translate this as " the phenomenon of the last epidermal layer " , but

>I don't know if this is what physicians actually say. Anyone out there to

>confirm it?

Off the top of my head, I would say that (at least in English) the answer

is no. (No hits on Google, either.)

But if you could give some more context, maybe we can figure out what it is

that English-speaking physicians *do* say... (I should mention that I know

very little German, so if you have already given the context of this

phrase, it went right over my head!)

Marla

[Guest guest]

I forgot to add the URL of the last quotation

m-ww.at/krankheiten/hautkrankheiten/schuppenflechte.html

Re: TERM Ger>Eng Phänomen des letzten Häutchens

Marla, the context was " psoriasis " , where scratching the skin causes removal

of *the last thin layer of epidermis* and finally bleeding. So what do

English speaking physicians call this " phenomenon " ?

Ursula

-----Original Message-----

At 10:22 AM 03/05/2001, Ursula wrote:

>Hello :

>I would translate this as " the phenomenon of the last epidermal layer " , but

>I don't know if this is what physicians actually say. Anyone out there to

>confirm it?

Off the top of my head, I would say that (at least in English) the answer

is no. (No hits on Google, either.)

But if you could give some more context, maybe we can figure out what it is

that English-speaking physicians *do* say... (I should mention that I know

very little German, so if you have already given the context of this

phrase, it went right over my head!)

Marla

[Guest guest]

At 03:20 PM 03/05/2001, Ursula wrote:

>Marla, the context was " psoriasis " , where scratching the skin causes removal

>of *the last thin layer of epidermis* and finally bleeding. So what do

>English speaking physicians call this " phenomenon " ?

A not-infrequent " cross-cultural " problem in medical translation is the

fact that what is a " phenomenon " in one language/ medical culture is not

necessarily recognized as a distinct phenomenon in the other language/

medical culture. This may be one of those instances (although I should

admit that dermatology has never been my strong suit).

The closest thing that I can find to this in English is possibly " Auspitz's

sign " ?

(it sounds like a German name, FWIW ;-)

See

http://www.fortunecity.com/marina/victory/11/skin.htm

Auspitz's sign is positive when slight scratching or curetting of a scaly

lesion reveals punctate bleeding points within the lesion which suggests of

psoriasis. [Alert! bad English here -- should be " which is suggestive of " ]

Also at

http://edcenter.med.cornell.edu/CUMC_PathNotes/Dermpath/Dermpath_04.html

The dermal papillae are elongated and contain dilated capillaries; these

extend close to the parakeratotic scale due to thinning of the overlying

epidermis. This results in minute points of bleeding, when the psoriatic

scale is removed (Auspitz's sign).

Anyway -- I hope this is helpful -- though I'm not really sure that this is

what you're looking for, ...

Marla

--

Marla J.F. O'Neill, M.D.

Medical Translation & Editing

French/Spanish/Italian>English

mailto:mjfoneill@...

[Guest guest]

At 03:20 PM 03/05/2001, Ursula wrote:

>Marla, the context was " psoriasis " , where scratching the skin causes removal

>of *the last thin layer of epidermis* and finally bleeding. So what do

>English speaking physicians call this " phenomenon " ?

A not-infrequent " cross-cultural " problem in medical translation is the

fact that what is a " phenomenon " in one language/ medical culture is not

necessarily recognized as a distinct phenomenon in the other language/

medical culture. This may be one of those instances (although I should

admit that dermatology has never been my strong suit).

The closest thing that I can find to this in English is possibly " Auspitz's

sign " ?

(it sounds like a German name, FWIW ;-)

See

http://www.fortunecity.com/marina/victory/11/skin.htm

Auspitz's sign is positive when slight scratching or curetting of a scaly

lesion reveals punctate bleeding points within the lesion which suggests of

psoriasis. [Alert! bad English here -- should be " which is suggestive of " ]

Also at

http://edcenter.med.cornell.edu/CUMC_PathNotes/Dermpath/Dermpath_04.html

The dermal papillae are elongated and contain dilated capillaries; these

extend close to the parakeratotic scale due to thinning of the overlying

epidermis. This results in minute points of bleeding, when the psoriatic

scale is removed (Auspitz's sign).

Anyway -- I hope this is helpful -- though I'm not really sure that this is

what you're looking for, ...

Marla

--

Marla J.F. O'Neill, M.D.

Medical Translation & Editing

French/Spanish/Italian>English

mailto:mjfoneill@...

[Guest guest]

Yes, that's it! (, are you reading this?)

The German term is " Auspitz-Phaenomen " , I found it in Pschyrembel's (the

German clinical dictionary):

Heinrich Auspitz, Dermatologist, Vienna1835-1886, ---> Psoriasis (where it

is explained, including the term " das letzte Haeutchen " )

Thanks to all who contributed Ursula

-----Original Message-----

The closest thing that I can find to this in English is possibly " Auspitz's

sign " ?

(it sounds like a German name, FWIW ;-)

[Guest guest]

> Yes, that's it! (, are you reading this?)

>

> The German term is " Auspitz-Phaenomen " , I found it in Pschyrembel's

(the

> German clinical dictionary):

> Heinrich Auspitz, Dermatologist, Vienna1835-1886, ---> Psoriasis

(where it

> is explained, including the term " das letzte Haeutchen " )

Yes, I am reading this. Thanks for the reference to the Pschyrembel

article. The entry (page 1313 of my edition (1998)) lists the three

stages of scratch damage that I referred to in my earlier msg:

Die Schuppen treten beim Kratzen deutlicher hervor (sog.

Kerzenfleckphänomen); darunter liegt eine dünne Epidermis (sog.

letztes Häutchen), nach deren Entfernung eini punktförmige Blutung

auftritt (sog. blutiger Tau, Auspitz-Phänomen).

So it's the second of these phenomena that I'm trying to describe in

English, i.e. before the appearance of the Auspitz phenomenon.

What makes this whole business rather circular is the fact that my

source document lists Pschyrembel among its sources in the

bibliography ...

Anyway, this morning/evening's discussion has cleared my thinking

regarding the sequence of events in question; if anyone has any

brilliant ideas about what to call the pre-Auspitz stage in English,

there's still plenty of time.

Thanks again,