RE: Re: Situations that bishops CAN influence

[Guest guest]



Dominic,

Your last sentence reads, "Should we approach our bishops on this, and tell them we need their help?"

Who is "we"? The members of this List? NFP teachers in general? Priests?

Since 1977 I have periodically advocated that the NFP "movement" in the States and Canada needs an umbrella organization for those who teach chaste natural family planning. No FAM + whatever during the fertile time.

Yes, it would be great if individual bishops and the bishops as a body would do something about the situation you address. But what can they do about the situation of clinicians? Wouldn't it be wonderful if they would do something positive about those situations that they can influence right in their respective dioceses and parishes?

In 1989 a US bishops' committee urged that every engaged couple be required to attend a full course on NFP. Twenty-two years later, six dioceses have that requirement with a seventh trying to get there. The more recent bishops' documents on NFP and marriage failed to mention that requirement.

To repeat, an association that represented all the fully Catholic NFP organizations might have a better chance of having some influence.

Kippley

Re: Re: Situations Catholics face, On limiting evil vs. cooperation with evil

Again, such great points, Fr. ! Before becoming a nurse practitioner, I worked as an RN for 5 years in one of our local Catholic hospitals, St. 's, where contraceptives aren't prescribed and sterilizations aren't performed. That's one of the primary reasons I chose to work there b/c I knew I wouldn't have to take part in anything contrary to my faith which was a nice freedom.

I plan on talking w/ my collaborating physician next week to discuss having our front desk staff alert patients that I don't prescribe contracepives at the time of scheduling and/or when they come in (we also see walk-ins, too). As you put it, I think this is the best way to "resist the emotionally strain" of the situation.

Thank you so much!

,

I have read your question again, and think there is no need to repeat what and Fr. Tom have said so well. I will add however a few examples that suggest that Catholics can work "in very difficult circumstances" if they can resist the emotional strain and are not being used.

-NFP physicians hospitalize patients in hospitals where contraceptives are prescribed. Should they stop hospitalizing their patients in these hospitals because this involves some monetary support for them? I only know of one hospital where contraceptives are not prescribed, the Hospital of the Univ. of Navarre, my alma mater. I imagine there are a few more.

-Priests in a parish hear confessions side by side to other priests who teach things contrary to the faith, for ex. regarding sexuality. Do associate pastors positively need to leave any assignment where this is happening?

-Are Catholics who work in large corporations or the stock exchange and witness immoral practices always obliged to leave even if they are not formally cooperating in evil actions?

-We pay taxes to a government that pays for abortions; should we stop paying taxes?

I think the general answer to all these questions is "no." Naturally each situation needs to be studied with the necessary details and a person should distance himself as much as possible from wrong doing.

Having said this, I think you should try to distance yourself more from the prescription of contraceptives, for example, by giving the patient a card explaining what you do without referring them to your colleague. But you are doing a lot of good in your work, and I commend you for this,

Fr.

Dominic,

I appreciate your delicate conscience in the matter when so many are callous. I believe, you, Fr. and I do agree in principle, however. Question is in the translation without splitting hairs. It may all come down to 's

statement as you said, "we decided". My presumption is that wanted 'no part' in providing contraceptives to patients, directly or indirectly. Unfortunately, I am not familiar with the health practice protocols and doctors' office routines as described them. This world forces us into many moral choices. I think, however, it may be possible to work in a doctor's office stipulating to those in charge one's moral limits and hopefully they agree and honor one's conscience. would need to 'decide' if she is being used for immoral purposes. By way of analogy I recall a personal moral quandary I faced when ( way back when ) I was in the Army Reserves during the Viet Nam War which I considered immoral. I had decided that if I was "called up" in the conflict I would refuse and be court-marshaled and perhaps imprisoned. I was not called up. That was not the Army I joined, and while a Reservist I did my duty. Blessings,

Fr. Tom

Dominic,

You make it sound like it is so easy. Unfortunately, it is not. For instance, in Florida, where is practicing, it is required to submit a written protocol to the State Board, and this protocol has to be approved, in writing by a physician the NP, CNM, or CRNA has made arrangements with for "back-up", is employed by, "supervised" etc.So in essence, we/they have to have "approval" for what we are doing and how we are doing it.

The exact wording, from http://www.doh.state.fl.us/mqa/nursing/nur_statutes.html:

An advanced registered nurse practitioner shall perform those functions authorized in this section within the framework of an established protocol that is filed with the board upon biennial license renewal and within 30 days after entering into a supervisory relationship with a physician or changes to the protocol. The board shall review the protocol to ensure compliance with applicable regulatory standards for protocols. The board shall refer to the department licensees submitting protocols that are not compliant with the regulatory standards for protocols. A practitioner currently licensed under chapter 458, chapter 459, or chapter 466 shall maintain supervision for directing the specific course of medical treatment. Within the established framework, an advanced registered nurse practitioner may:....

So you can see the dilema for those of us who are not physicians. I MOVED my whole family to OMAHA, and took a temporary job there precisely so I could attend the combined program Creighton Model training. Having that training in no way made it easier to have a private practice- at least not one that would be substantial enough to pay for my mortgage and my groceries, let alone clothing and misc for my children. I have not even had enough NFP clients to become certified as a practitioner in the 7 years since I completed that program. And since there have been very few physicians who know and practice only NFP, let alone the Creighton Model, it has been very difficult to find any job or position of employment that is supporting of that. The best we - as NP's/CNM's (and probably PA's) can get is tolerance, and even that is hard to come by. To get it in *writing* that they (physicians) approve of our protocols is even harder. Add to that the difficulty in getting the physicians to agree to "let us" RX the medications that are needed, (ie bio-identical progesterone, HCG tx, low dose clomid, etc).- and we have another battle...

That said, every state has different rules, and some states do allow for independent practice, such as Iowa, Arizona, New Mexico, Colorado and perhaps a few others I can't recall offhand.

I am not trying to be negative, but you need to understand that as hard as it is for a physician to be NFP only, it can be that much harder for a non-physician provider to be NFP only.

Your last 2 statements are very true, however, that is where the cross comes in. I think that has done all that she can in her situation, and do not agree that telling the patient what to expect next is "helping" or being complicit in any way. Nor is is she being complicit in agreeing to letting the physicians see the patients behind her. She really has no choice in this situation, other than to leave the practice, unless one of the other suggestions we have made will be agreeable. I think the fact that the physicians she is working with are at least being tolerant of her NFP only practice, is admirable on their part. They obviously do not have the background or understanding for our theological, ideological or biological objections to the practice of contraception. Sounds like is working on that end of it though!

Sandrock, RNC-OB, APRN, CNM, MSN

Now to go beyond being negative! After going to Creighton and becoming both NFP medical consultant and practitioner, she will see the way forward out of this because she will see that she does not need to be in this association to have a practice. (I did the same thing before establishing my "contraceptology" clinic) Nor does she need to be used so that the FP-MD can waltz in and write the corrupt prescription after has done all the hard work, only to be severely demoralized by the end result and by being undermined consistently. This last thing and the moral problem is the likely reason she feels the way she does and who can blame her. To me it is morally, emotionally, and professionally defeating and an untenable situation and no Catholic provider ought to feel she has to remain in it.

-- Fr. R. Vélez765 14th Ave, Apt 1San Francisco, CA 94118Website: www.newmanbiography.com

[Guest guest]

here's what bishops can do for docs in their own dioceses who claim to be practicing Catholics -- the same thing they would, should, and could do for politicians who vote in favor of abortion, anti-life policies, and anti-marriage initiatives (for only they and their priests under their jurisdiction have the authority to do it): seek them out for dialogue in a fatherly way to persuade them of the truth, not to exclude looking them in the eye and reminding them if necessary that in our belief system, while no one except God can judge the individual conscience, judge God does indeed intend to do, and that the severest judgments in Holy Scripture are reserved for those who lead others into sin ("Scandals must come, but woe..."). For when these Catholic OB?GYNs die and meet Jesus the Judge, won't they be able to say they never heard anything from their pastor or bishop? No, I would call them in and express just how much esteem the bishop has for the profession, then tell them the full moral and spiritual impact of what they are doing, in a fatherly way. Is the contraception-providing Catholic OB/GYN not committing scandal; i.e., leading others into sin? Probably a canonical case can even be made even for withholding communion for recalcitrant OB/GYNs, but here I may be too strict and a canonist can better judge.

They get one or 2 this way, and your Catholic center can begin.

But what can they do about the situation of clinicians? Wouldn't it be wonderful if they would do something positive about those situations that they can influence right in their respective dioceses and parishes?

Sincerely yours,

Dominic M. Pedulla MD, FACC, CNFPMC, ABVM, ACPh

Interventional Cardiologist, Endovascular Diplomate, Varicose Vein Specialist, Noncontraceptive Family Planning Consultant, Family Planning Researcher

Medical Director, The Oklahoma Vein and Endovascular Center (www.noveinok.com, veininfo@...)

Executive Director, The Edith Stein Foundation (www.theedithsteinfoundation.com)

(office)

(cell)

(FAX)

pedullad@...

“Our fundamental purpose is not to go out and help the poor. For us, this has only been a means. Our purpose is to maintain the Catholic faith within us, and to allow its diffusion to others through the instrument of charity.†Blessed Frederic Ozanam, a 19th century founder of the Society of Saint De

Re: Re: Situations that bishops CAN influence

Dominic,

Your last sentence reads, "Should we approach our bishops on this, and tell them we need their help?"

Who is "we"? The members of this List? NFP teachers in general? Priests?

Since 1977 I have periodically advocated that the NFP "movement" in the States and Canada needs an umbrella organization for those who teach chaste natural family planning. No FAM + whatever during the fertile time.

Yes, it would be great if individual bishops and the bishops as a body would do something about the situation you address. But what can they do about the situation of clinicians? Wouldn't it be wonderful if they would do something positive about those situations that they can influence right in their respective dioceses and parishes?

In 1989 a US bishops' committee urged that every engaged couple be required to attend a full course on NFP. Twenty-two years later, six dioceses have that requirement with a seventh trying to get there. The more recent bishops' documents on NFP and marriage failed to mention that requirement.

To repeat, an association that represented all the fully Catholic NFP organizations might have a better chance of having some influence.

Kippley

Re: Re: Situations Catholics face, On limiting evil vs. cooperation with evil

Again, such great points, Fr. ! Before becoming a nurse practitioner, I worked as an RN for 5 years in one of our local Catholic hospitals, St. 's, where contraceptives aren't prescribed and sterilizations aren't performed. That's one of the primary reasons I chose to work there b/c I knew I wouldn't have to take part in anything contrary to my faith which was a nice freedom.

I plan on talking w/ my collaborating physician next week to discuss having our front desk staff alert patients that I don't prescribe contracepives at the time of scheduling and/or when they come in (we also see walk-ins, too). As you put it, I think this is the best way to "resist the emotionally strain" of the situation.

Thank you so much!

,

I have read your question again, and think there is no need to repeat what and Fr. Tom have said so well. I will add however a few examples that suggest that Catholics can work "in very difficult circumstances" if they can resist the emotional strain and are not being used.

-NFP physicians hospitalize patients in hospitals where contraceptives are prescribed. Should they stop hospitalizing their patients in these hospitals because this involves some monetary support for them? I only know of one hospital where contraceptives are not prescribed, the Hospital of the Univ. of Navarre, my alma mater. I imagine there are a few more.

-Priests in a parish hear confessions side by side to other priests who teach things contrary to the faith, for ex. regarding sexuality. Do associate pastors positively need to leave any assignment where this is happening?

-Are Catholics who work in large corporations or the stock exchange and witness immoral practices always obliged to leave even if they are not formally cooperating in evil actions?

-We pay taxes to a government that pays for abortions; should we stop paying taxes?

I think the general answer to all these questions is "no." Naturally each situation needs to be studied with the necessary details and a person should distance himself as much as possible from wrong doing.

Having said this, I think you should try to distance yourself more from the prescription of contraceptives, for example, by giving the patient a card explaining what you do without referring them to your colleague. But you are doing a lot of good in your work, and I commend you for this,

Fr.

Dominic,

I appreciate your delicate conscience in the matter when so many are callous. I believe, you, Fr. and I do agree in principle, however. Question is in the translation without splitting hairs. It may all come down to 's

statement as you said, "we decided". My presumption is that wanted 'no part' in providing contraceptives to patients, directly or indirectly. Unfortunately, I am not familiar with the health practice protocols and doctors' office routines as described them. This world forces us into many moral choices. I think, however, it may be possible to work in a doctor's office stipulating to those in charge one's moral limits and hopefully they agree and honor one's conscience. would need to 'decide' if she is being used for immoral purposes. By way of analogy I recall a personal moral quandary I faced when ( way back when ) I was in the Army Reserves during the Viet Nam War which I considered immoral. I had decided that if I was "called up" in the conflict I would refuse and be court-marshaled and perhaps imprisoned. I was not called up. That was not the Army I joined, and while a Reservist I did my duty. Blessings,

Fr. Tom

Dominic,

You make it sound like it is so easy. Unfortunately, it is not. For instance, in Florida, where is practicing, it is required to submit a written protocol to the State Board, and this protocol has to be approved, in writing by a physician the NP, CNM, or CRNA has made arrangements with for "back-up", is employed by, "supervised" etc.So in essence, we/they have to have "approval" for what we are doing and how we are doing it.

The exact wording, from http://www.doh.state.fl.us/mqa/nursing/nur_statutes.html:

An advanced registered nurse practitioner shall perform those functions authorized in this section within the framework of an established protocol that is filed with the board upon biennial license renewal and within 30 days after entering into a supervisory relationship with a physician or changes to the protocol. The board shall review the protocol to ensure compliance with applicable regulatory standards for protocols. The board shall refer to the department licensees submitting protocols that are not compliant with the regulatory standards for protocols. A practitioner currently licensed under chapter 458, chapter 459, or chapter 466 shall maintain supervision for directing the specific course of medical treatment. Within the established framework, an advanced registered nurse practitioner may:....

So you can see the dilema for those of us who are not physicians. I MOVED my whole family to OMAHA, and took a temporary job there precisely so I could attend the combined program Creighton Model training. Having that training in no way made it easier to have a private practice- at least not one that would be substantial enough to pay for my mortgage and my groceries, let alone clothing and misc for my children. I have not even had enough NFP clients to become certified as a practitioner in the 7 years since I completed that program. And since there have been very few physicians who know and practice only NFP, let alone the Creighton Model, it has been very difficult to find any job or position of employment that is supporting of that. The best we - as NP's/CNM's (and probably PA's) can get is tolerance, and even that is hard to come by. To get it in *writing* that they (physicians) approve of our protocols is even harder. Add to that the difficulty in getting the physicians to agree to "let us" RX the medications that are needed, (ie bio-identical progesterone, HCG tx, low dose clomid, etc).- and we have another battle...

That said, every state has different rules, and some states do allow for independent practice, such as Iowa, Arizona, New Mexico, Colorado and perhaps a few others I can't recall offhand.

I am not trying to be negative, but you need to understand that as hard as it is for a physician to be NFP only, it can be that much harder for a non-physician provider to be NFP only.

Your last 2 statements are very true, however, that is where the cross comes in. I think that has done all that she can in her situation, and do not agree that telling the patient what to expect next is "helping" or being complicit in any way. Nor is is she being complicit in agreeing to letting the physicians see the patients behind her. She really has no choice in this situation, other than to leave the practice, unless one of the other suggestions we have made will be agreeable. I think the fact that the physicians she is working with are at least being tolerant of her NFP only practice, is admirable on their part. They obviously do not have the background or understanding for our theological, ideological or biological objections to the practice of contraception. Sounds like is working on that end of it though!

Sandrock, RNC-OB, APRN, CNM, MSN

Now to go beyond being negative! After going to Creighton and becoming both NFP medical consultant and practitioner, she will see the way forward out of this because she will see that she does not need to be in this association to have a practice. (I did the same thing before establishing my "contraceptology" clinic) Nor does she need to be used so that the FP-MD can waltz in and write the corrupt prescription after has done all the hard work, only to be severely demoralized by the end result and by being undermined consistently. This last thing and the moral problem is the likely reason she feels the way she does and who can blame her. To me it is morally, emotionally, and professionally defeating and an untenable situation and no Catholic provider ought to feel she has to remain in it.

--

Fr. R. Vélez

765 14th Ave, Apt 1

San Francisco, CA 94118

Website: www.newmanbiography.com

[Guest guest]

As has perceptively noted, the Grisez case is instructive for our case, even if not an absolutely identical case (abortion is involved and the group started out as Catholic and initially obeyed the bishops healthcare ethical directives). Still, I believe the coverage of the issue of material cooperation for internally referring within the group for contraception "services" is worth quoting at length and, whether you agree or disagree with him, it is substantially similar and relevant to 's case we've been discussing (not identical but in essence applicable). N.B. that although he agrees with my conclusion he doesn't thereby automatically conclude the practitioner must leave the group:

You might suppose that you may refer patients to Xander, much as a physician who is not in a group but under other pressures may refer patients—at least by suggesting a referral service—to someone who will accommodate them (see q. 66, above). But your situation is different. Since you and the other physicians are a group, your professional work and theirs ordinarily is wholehearted cooperation for common purposes, which include your patients’ well-being and community among yourselves both in your professional activities and in sharing their benefits, not least their financial proceeds. This close association is understood by everyone concerned, and the patients you refer to Xander also will remain yours. When you refer someone to him, you know what he will do, and the patient knows that you know. This state of affairs will profoundly affect the significance of your involvement.

At times you certainly will be tempted to intend the same thing Xander wrongly intends. Caring for the same patients, you cannot help joining him in the intention that they survive and enjoy good health. Knowing that wrong things are being done, you will try to forestall some of their injurious effects. If Xander prescribes a contraceptive, you will be concerned that the patient take it correctly and deal appropriately with side effects; if he is planning to do a sterilization, you will be concerned that the couple understand what sterilization is and that the patient not be coerced; and if Xander refers someone for an abortion, you will be concerned that it not be late in pregnancy, when it would be more dangerous to the mother. Caring for your patients even as they engage in contralife acts, you surely will sometimes be tempted to join them in intending the bad means of attaining their ulterior good ends.

Even if you can avoid intending bad means, your involvement in Xander’s wrongdoing, which inevitably will be extensive, is likely to lead at least some of your patients who otherwise would resist temptation to give in to it. Since you have adhered to Catholic teaching up to now, for you to go along with the group’s change of policy will strongly suggest that contraception, sterilization, and abortion are not so wrong after all, and this suggestion will encourage people to rationalize choosing what they previously regarded as wrong. At the same time, you will be inhibited from bearing credible witness to the truth—that is, saying clearly what you believe about these contralife actions and acting in unambiguous harmony with what you say.

The point is especially clear and serious with respect to abortion. Someone is certain to bring it up sooner or later. If you say, “I don’t want to have anything to do with that sort of thing but you can see Dr. Xander about it,†you will give the impression that you regard abortion, not as wrong in itself, but only as repugnant to you. Yet all of the patients served by the group and, indeed, the wider community need to be reminded constantly that human life is sacred and abortion is its wanton destruction. And even though others continue doing that, the fact that you no longer do will undermine their witness.

Moreover, even your limited involvement in abortion will raise a very serious question of fairness to the unborn child. If you were in his or her place, would you not wish a prolife physician your mother consulted to do everything possible to dissuade her from killing you? Nor is involvement in prescribing oral contraceptives free of the issue of fairness. As you and White argued, they sometimes work as abortifacients. Moreover, they do not always work, and then a child comes to be as unwanted and is in danger of being either aborted or resented and, perhaps, abused (see LCL, 514–16).

Consequently, it seems clear to me that you may not comply with the decision of the others even within the limits you have set. But it is not clear to me that your only alternative is simply to leave and begin a new practice elsewhere. While you might be forced to do that, it should be a last resort. You owe it to your patients, including those not yet born, to help them preserve their lives and promote their health. Before leaving, you should communicate with your partners, one by one, in an effort to persuade at least some of them, and especially Dr. White, to insist on keeping to the terms of the original contract. If you win back at least three of your partners, that majority can save and restore the group’s original purpose of providing good care in accord with sound morality. Your patients, who came to the group on that basis, deserve nothing less.

Sincerely yours,

Dominic M. Pedulla MD, FACC, CNFPMC, ABVM, ACPh

Interventional Cardiologist, Endovascular Diplomate, Varicose Vein Specialist, Noncontraceptive Family Planning Consultant, Family Planning Researcher

Medical Director, The Oklahoma Vein and Endovascular Center (www.noveinok.com, veininfo@...)

Executive Director, The Edith Stein Foundation (www.theedithsteinfoundation.com)

(office)

(cell)

(FAX)

pedullad@...

“Our fundamental purpose is not to go out and help the poor. For us, this has only been a means. Our purpose is to maintain the Catholic faith within us, and to allow its diffusion to others through the instrument of charity.†Blessed Frederic Ozanam, a 19th century founder of the Society of Saint De

Re: Re: Situations that bishops CAN influence

Dominic,

Your last sentence reads, "Should we approach our bishops on this, and tell them we need their help?"

Who is "we"? The members of this List? NFP teachers in general? Priests?

Since 1977 I have periodically advocated that the NFP "movement" in the States and Canada needs an umbrella organization for those who teach chaste natural family planning. No FAM + whatever during the fertile time.

Yes, it would be great if individual bishops and the bishops as a body would do something about the situation you address. But what can they do about the situation of clinicians? Wouldn't it be wonderful if they would do something positive about those situations that they can influence right in their respective dioceses and parishes?

In 1989 a US bishops' committee urged that every engaged couple be required to attend a full course on NFP. Twenty-two years later, six dioceses have that requirement with a seventh trying to get there. The more recent bishops' documents on NFP and marriage failed to mention that requirement.

To repeat, an association that represented all the fully Catholic NFP organizations might have a better chance of having some influence.

Kippley

Re: Re: Situations Catholics face, On limiting evil vs. cooperation with evil

Again, such great points, Fr. ! Before becoming a nurse practitioner, I worked as an RN for 5 years in one of our local Catholic hospitals, St. 's, where contraceptives aren't prescribed and sterilizations aren't performed. That's one of the primary reasons I chose to work there b/c I knew I wouldn't have to take part in anything contrary to my faith which was a nice freedom.

I plan on talking w/ my collaborating physician next week to discuss having our front desk staff alert patients that I don't prescribe contracepives at the time of scheduling and/or when they come in (we also see walk-ins, too). As you put it, I think this is the best way to "resist the emotionally strain" of the situation.

Thank you so much!

,

I have read your question again, and think there is no need to repeat what and Fr. Tom have said so well. I will add however a few examples that suggest that Catholics can work "in very difficult circumstances" if they can resist the emotional strain and are not being used.

-NFP physicians hospitalize patients in hospitals where contraceptives are prescribed. Should they stop hospitalizing their patients in these hospitals because this involves some monetary support for them? I only know of one hospital where contraceptives are not prescribed, the Hospital of the Univ. of Navarre, my alma mater. I imagine there are a few more.

-Priests in a parish hear confessions side by side to other priests who teach things contrary to the faith, for ex. regarding sexuality. Do associate pastors positively need to leave any assignment where this is happening?

-Are Catholics who work in large corporations or the stock exchange and witness immoral practices always obliged to leave even if they are not formally cooperating in evil actions?

-We pay taxes to a government that pays for abortions; should we stop paying taxes?

I think the general answer to all these questions is "no." Naturally each situation needs to be studied with the necessary details and a person should distance himself as much as possible from wrong doing.

Having said this, I think you should try to distance yourself more from the prescription of contraceptives, for example, by giving the patient a card explaining what you do without referring them to your colleague. But you are doing a lot of good in your work, and I commend you for this,

Fr.

Dominic,

I appreciate your delicate conscience in the matter when so many are callous. I believe, you, Fr. and I do agree in principle, however. Question is in the translation without splitting hairs. It may all come down to 's

statement as you said, "we decided". My presumption is that wanted 'no part' in providing contraceptives to patients, directly or indirectly. Unfortunately, I am not familiar with the health practice protocols and doctors' office routines as described them. This world forces us into many moral choices. I think, however, it may be possible to work in a doctor's office stipulating to those in charge one's moral limits and hopefully they agree and honor one's conscience. would need to 'decide' if she is being used for immoral purposes. By way of analogy I recall a personal moral quandary I faced when ( way back when ) I was in the Army Reserves during the Viet Nam War which I considered immoral. I had decided that if I was "called up" in the conflict I would refuse and be court-marshaled and perhaps imprisoned. I was not called up. That was not the Army I joined, and while a Reservist I did my duty. Blessings,

Fr. Tom

Dominic,

You make it sound like it is so easy. Unfortunately, it is not. For instance, in Florida, where is practicing, it is required to submit a written protocol to the State Board, and this protocol has to be approved, in writing by a physician the NP, CNM, or CRNA has made arrangements with for "back-up", is employed by, "supervised" etc.So in essence, we/they have to have "approval" for what we are doing and how we are doing it.

The exact wording, from http://www.doh.state.fl.us/mqa/nursing/nur_statutes.html:

An advanced registered nurse practitioner shall perform those functions authorized in this section within the framework of an established protocol that is filed with the board upon biennial license renewal and within 30 days after entering into a supervisory relationship with a physician or changes to the protocol. The board shall review the protocol to ensure compliance with applicable regulatory standards for protocols. The board shall refer to the department licensees submitting protocols that are not compliant with the regulatory standards for protocols. A practitioner currently licensed under chapter 458, chapter 459, or chapter 466 shall maintain supervision for directing the specific course of medical treatment. Within the established framework, an advanced registered nurse practitioner may:....

So you can see the dilema for those of us who are not physicians. I MOVED my whole family to OMAHA, and took a temporary job there precisely so I could attend the combined program Creighton Model training. Having that training in no way made it easier to have a private practice- at least not one that would be substantial enough to pay for my mortgage and my groceries, let alone clothing and misc for my children. I have not even had enough NFP clients to become certified as a practitioner in the 7 years since I completed that program. And since there have been very few physicians who know and practice only NFP, let alone the Creighton Model, it has been very difficult to find any job or position of employment that is supporting of that. The best we - as NP's/CNM's (and probably PA's) can get is tolerance, and even that is hard to come by. To get it in *writing* that they (physicians) approve of our protocols is even harder. Add to that the difficulty in getting the physicians to agree to "let us" RX the medications that are needed, (ie bio-identical progesterone, HCG tx, low dose clomid, etc).- and we have another battle...

That said, every state has different rules, and some states do allow for independent practice, such as Iowa, Arizona, New Mexico, Colorado and perhaps a few others I can't recall offhand.

I am not trying to be negative, but you need to understand that as hard as it is for a physician to be NFP only, it can be that much harder for a non-physician provider to be NFP only.

Your last 2 statements are very true, however, that is where the cross comes in. I think that has done all that she can in her situation, and do not agree that telling the patient what to expect next is "helping" or being complicit in any way. Nor is is she being complicit in agreeing to letting the physicians see the patients behind her. She really has no choice in this situation, other than to leave the practice, unless one of the other suggestions we have made will be agreeable. I think the fact that the physicians she is working with are at least being tolerant of her NFP only practice, is admirable on their part. They obviously do not have the background or understanding for our theological, ideological or biological objections to the practice of contraception. Sounds like is working on that end of it though!

Sandrock, RNC-OB, APRN, CNM, MSN

Now to go beyond being negative! After going to Creighton and becoming both NFP medical consultant and practitioner, she will see the way forward out of this because she will see that she does not need to be in this association to have a practice. (I did the same thing before establishing my "contraceptology" clinic) Nor does she need to be used so that the FP-MD can waltz in and write the corrupt prescription after has done all the hard work, only to be severely demoralized by the end result and by being undermined consistently. This last thing and the moral problem is the likely reason she feels the way she does and who can blame her. To me it is morally, emotionally, and professionally defeating and an untenable situation and no Catholic provider ought to feel she has to remain in it.

--

Fr. R. Vélez

765 14th Ave, Apt 1

San Francisco, CA 94118

Website: www.newmanbiography.com

[Guest guest]

One of the better situations I know is the Center for Women's Health owned by Holy Spirit hospital in burg PA. This is the ideal model- a 5 physician multiple NP - NFP only Ob/Gyn practice with multiple Creighton trained docs. They are financially owned and backed by a Catholic hospital system which Markets them and supports them. Of course, everyone does not have a Catholic hospital near them or, if so, that would support them. There are many examples of NFP only women's healthcare practitioners who have had to leave group practices to go solo. This may require geographic location changes, large financial commitments to start all over and family financial strains- none of which justify not doing it- but explain why it is not done more. I started my Ob/Gyn practice 35 yes ago when I was contracepting in the practice. Over the yrs I added 6 physicians and 5 NP's all of whom contracept in the practice. When I converted to NFP only 13 yrs ago they all agreed to "accept " my change with a onebthird reduction in salary. I could have left and started all over again as a solo and racked up $100,000 start up loans when my kids were getting ready to go to college. I have 2 "catholic" partners,3 Jewish,and 2 Protestant. My priest "confrontor/ converter/ advisor" told me I could stay without moral compromise. If I see a long term patient who wants contraception or sterilization_ I tell them up front I don't do it, why and that my advice is to not do it both medically and sometimes ethically and morally if they ask! If they persist in wanting the service I tell them they will have to see someone else- not necessarily in my practice- which is NOT a referral. I advertise in the waiting room, on our website and in brochures and pamphlets my NFP " special" services. Sometimes my partners and NP's will refer me a pt. I teach classes in our conference room or waiting room. I give invitations, articles and solicitations on NFP and the like to all a lot. So far no conversions. Not the ideal but it works for me. I do OK financially but not anywhere near as good as my " equal" partners. For me to leave and start over again would not be sustainable in this climate. On another note wouldn't it be nice for all the "Catholic" patients who have been financially supporting their contracting- sterilizing to leave those practices and start with one that doesn't? I have many female friends who do no support contraception or sterilization but won't come to me because they know me but continue to go to their Ob/ gins and just ignore their questions when asked what are they using for contraception or do you want it! We live in an evil world and the best we can all do is properly form our conscience, know the truth and then try to live it the best we can. One final item - just about every health insurance provider company pays for abortions, contraception and sterilization and now even gender reassignment- would a healthcare provider be morally compromised by participating in reimbursement from these companies? I think not, but purists may argue otherwise.God bless all who struggleeLes RuppersbergerFrom my wife's iPad

As has perceptively noted, the Grisez case is instructive for our case, even if not an absolutely identical case (abortion is involved and the group started out as Catholic and initially obeyed the bishops healthcare ethical directives). Still, I believe the coverage of the issue of material cooperation for internally referring within the group for contraception "services" is worth quoting at length and, whether you agree or disagree with him, it is substantially similar and relevant to 's case we've been discussing (not identical but in essence applicable). N.B. that although he agrees with my conclusion he doesn't thereby automatically conclude the practitioner must leave the group:

You might suppose that you may refer patients to Xander, much as a physician who is not in a group but under other pressures may refer patients—at least by suggesting a referral service—to someone who will accommodate them (see q. 66, above). But your situation is different. Since you and the other physicians are a group, your professional work and theirs ordinarily is wholehearted cooperation for common purposes, which include your patients’ well-being and community among yourselves both in your professional activities and in sharing their benefits, not least their financial proceeds. This close association is understood by everyone concerned, and the patients you refer to Xander also will remain yours. When you refer someone to him, you know what he will do, and the patient knows that you know. This state of affairs will profoundly affect the significance of your involvement.

At times you certainly will be tempted to intend the same thing Xander wrongly intends. Caring for the same patients, you cannot help joining him in the intention that they survive and enjoy good health. Knowing that wrong things are being done, you will try to forestall some of their injurious effects. If Xander prescribes a contraceptive, you will be concerned that the patient take it correctly and deal appropriately with side effects; if he is planning to do a sterilization, you will be concerned that the couple understand what sterilization is and that the patient not be coerced; and if Xander refers someone for an abortion, you will be concerned that it not be late in pregnancy, when it would be more dangerous to the mother. Caring for your patients even as they engage in contralife acts, you surely will sometimes be tempted to join them in intending the bad means of attaining their ulterior good ends.

Even if you can avoid intending bad means, your involvement in Xander’s wrongdoing, which inevitably will be extensive, is likely to lead at least some of your patients who otherwise would resist temptation to give in to it. Since you have adhered to Catholic teaching up to now, for you to go along with the group’s change of policy will strongly suggest that contraception, sterilization, and abortion are not so wrong after all, and this suggestion will encourage people to rationalize choosing what they previously regarded as wrong. At the same time, you will be inhibited from bearing credible witness to the truth—that is, saying clearly what you believe about these contralife actions and acting in unambiguous harmony with what you say.

The point is especially clear and serious with respect to abortion. Someone is certain to bring it up sooner or later. If you say, “I don’t want to have anything to do with that sort of thing but you can see Dr. Xander about it,†you will give the impression that you regard abortion, not as wrong in itself, but only as repugnant to you. Yet all of the patients served by the group and, indeed, the wider community need to be reminded constantly that human life is sacred and abortion is its wanton destruction. And even though others continue doing that, the fact that you no longer do will undermine their witness.

Moreover, even your limited involvement in abortion will raise a very serious question of fairness to the unborn child. If you were in his or her place, would you not wish a prolife physician your mother consulted to do everything possible to dissuade her from killing you? Nor is involvement in prescribing oral contraceptives free of the issue of fairness. As you and White argued, they sometimes work as abortifacients. Moreover, they do not always work, and then a child comes to be as unwanted and is in danger of being either aborted or resented and, perhaps, abused (see LCL, 514–16).

Consequently, it seems clear to me that you may not comply with the decision of the others even within the limits you have set. But it is not clear to me that your only alternative is simply to leave and begin a new practice elsewhere. While you might be forced to do that, it should be a last resort. You owe it to your patients, including those not yet born, to help them preserve their lives and promote their health. Before leaving, you should communicate with your partners, one by one, in an effort to persuade at least some of them, and especially Dr. White, to insist on keeping to the terms of the original contract. If you win back at least three of your partners, that majority can save and restore the group’s original purpose of providing good care in accord with sound morality. Your patients, who came to the group on that basis, deserve nothing less.

Sincerely yours,

Dominic M. Pedulla MD, FACC, CNFPMC, ABVM, ACPh

Interventional Cardiologist, Endovascular Diplomate, Varicose Vein Specialist, Noncontraceptive Family Planning Consultant, Family Planning Researcher

Medical Director, The Oklahoma Vein and Endovascular Center (www.noveinok.com, veininfo@...)

Executive Director, The Edith Stein Foundation (www.theedithsteinfoundation.com)

(office)

(cell)

(FAX)

pedullad@...

“Our fundamental purpose is not to go out and help the poor. For us, this has only been a means. Our purpose is to maintain the Catholic faith within us, and to allow its diffusion to others through the instrument of charity.†Blessed Frederic Ozanam, a 19th century founder of the Society of Saint De

Re: Re: Situations that bishops CAN influence

Dominic,

Your last sentence reads, "Should we approach our bishops on this, and tell them we need their help?"

Who is "we"? The members of this List? NFP teachers in general? Priests?

Since 1977 I have periodically advocated that the NFP "movement" in the States and Canada needs an umbrella organization for those who teach chaste natural family planning. No FAM + whatever during the fertile time.

Yes, it would be great if individual bishops and the bishops as a body would do something about the situation you address. But what can they do about the situation of clinicians? Wouldn't it be wonderful if they would do something positive about those situations that they can influence right in their respective dioceses and parishes?

In 1989 a US bishops' committee urged that every engaged couple be required to attend a full course on NFP. Twenty-two years later, six dioceses have that requirement with a seventh trying to get there. The more recent bishops' documents on NFP and marriage failed to mention that requirement.

To repeat, an association that represented all the fully Catholic NFP organizations might have a better chance of having some influence.

Kippley

Re: Re: Situations Catholics face, On limiting evil vs. cooperation with evil

Again, such great points, Fr. ! Before becoming a nurse practitioner, I worked as an RN for 5 years in one of our local Catholic hospitals, St. 's, where contraceptives aren't prescribed and sterilizations aren't performed. That's one of the primary reasons I chose to work there b/c I knew I wouldn't have to take part in anything contrary to my faith which was a nice freedom.

I plan on talking w/ my collaborating physician next week to discuss having our front desk staff alert patients that I don't prescribe contracepives at the time of scheduling and/or when they come in (we also see walk-ins, too). As you put it, I think this is the best way to "resist the emotionally strain" of the situation.

Thank you so much!

,

I have read your question again, and think there is no need to repeat what and Fr. Tom have said so well. I will add however a few examples that suggest that Catholics can work "in very difficult circumstances" if they can resist the emotional strain and are not being used.

-NFP physicians hospitalize patients in hospitals where contraceptives are prescribed. Should they stop hospitalizing their patients in these hospitals because this involves some monetary support for them? I only know of one hospital where contraceptives are not prescribed, the Hospital of the Univ. of Navarre, my alma mater. I imagine there are a few more.

-Priests in a parish hear confessions side by side to other priests who teach things contrary to the faith, for ex. regarding sexuality. Do associate pastors positively need to leave any assignment where this is happening?

-Are Catholics who work in large corporations or the stock exchange and witness immoral practices always obliged to leave even if they are not formally cooperating in evil actions?

-We pay taxes to a government that pays for abortions; should we stop paying taxes?

I think the general answer to all these questions is "no." Naturally each situation needs to be studied with the necessary details and a person should distance himself as much as possible from wrong doing.

Having said this, I think you should try to distance yourself more from the prescription of contraceptives, for example, by giving the patient a card explaining what you do without referring them to your colleague. But you are doing a lot of good in your work, and I commend you for this,

Fr.

Dominic,

I appreciate your delicate conscience in the matter when so many are callous. I believe, you, Fr. and I do agree in principle, however. Question is in the translation without splitting hairs. It may all come down to 's

statement as you said, "we decided". My presumption is that wanted 'no part' in providing contraceptives to patients, directly or indirectly. Unfortunately, I am not familiar with the health practice protocols and doctors' office routines as described them. This world forces us into many moral choices. I think, however, it may be possible to work in a doctor's office stipulating to those in charge one's moral limits and hopefully they agree and honor one's conscience. would need to 'decide' if she is being used for immoral purposes. By way of analogy I recall a personal moral quandary I faced when ( way back when ) I was in the Army Reserves during the Viet Nam War which I considered immoral. I had decided that if I was "called up" in the conflict I would refuse and be court-marshaled and perhaps imprisoned. I was not called up. That was not the Army I joined, and while a Reservist I did my duty. Blessings,

Fr. Tom

Dominic,

You make it sound like it is so easy. Unfortunately, it is not. For instance, in Florida, where is practicing, it is required to submit a written protocol to the State Board, and this protocol has to be approved, in writing by a physician the NP, CNM, or CRNA has made arrangements with for "back-up", is employed by, "supervised" etc.So in essence, we/they have to have "approval" for what we are doing and how we are doing it.

The exact wording, from http://www.doh.state.fl.us/mqa/nursing/nur_statutes.html:

An advanced registered nurse practitioner shall perform those functions authorized in this section within the framework of an established protocol that is filed with the board upon biennial license renewal and within 30 days after entering into a supervisory relationship with a physician or changes to the protocol. The board shall review the protocol to ensure compliance with applicable regulatory standards for protocols. The board shall refer to the department licensees submitting protocols that are not compliant with the regulatory standards for protocols. A practitioner currently licensed under chapter 458, chapter 459, or chapter 466 shall maintain supervision for directing the specific course of medical treatment. Within the established framework, an advanced registered nurse practitioner may:....

So you can see the dilema for those of us who are not physicians. I MOVED my whole family to OMAHA, and took a temporary job there precisely so I could attend the combined program Creighton Model training. Having that training in no way made it easier to have a private practice- at least not one that would be substantial enough to pay for my mortgage and my groceries, let alone clothing and misc for my children. I have not even had enough NFP clients to become certified as a practitioner in the 7 years since I completed that program. And since there have been very few physicians who know and practice only NFP, let alone the Creighton Model, it has been very difficult to find any job or position of employment that is supporting of that. The best we - as NP's/CNM's (and probably PA's) can get is tolerance, and even that is hard to come by. To get it in *writing* that they (physicians) approve of our protocols is even harder. Add to that the difficulty in getting the physicians to agree to "let us" RX the medications that are needed, (ie bio-identical progesterone, HCG tx, low dose clomid, etc).- and we have another battle...

That said, every state has different rules, and some states do allow for independent practice, such as Iowa, Arizona, New Mexico, Colorado and perhaps a few others I can't recall offhand.

I am not trying to be negative, but you need to understand that as hard as it is for a physician to be NFP only, it can be that much harder for a non-physician provider to be NFP only.

Your last 2 statements are very true, however, that is where the cross comes in. I think that has done all that she can in her situation, and do not agree that telling the patient what to expect next is "helping" or being complicit in any way. Nor is is she being complicit in agreeing to letting the physicians see the patients behind her. She really has no choice in this situation, other than to leave the practice, unless one of the other suggestions we have made will be agreeable. I think the fact that the physicians she is working with are at least being tolerant of her NFP only practice, is admirable on their part. They obviously do not have the background or understanding for our theological, ideological or biological objections to the practice of contraception. Sounds like is working on that end of it though!

Sandrock, RNC-OB, APRN, CNM, MSN

Now to go beyond being negative! After going to Creighton and becoming both NFP medical consultant and practitioner, she will see the way forward out of this because she will see that she does not need to be in this association to have a practice. (I did the same thing before establishing my "contraceptology" clinic) Nor does she need to be used so that the FP-MD can waltz in and write the corrupt prescription after has done all the hard work, only to be severely demoralized by the end result and by being undermined consistently. This last thing and the moral problem is the likely reason she feels the way she does and who can blame her. To me it is morally, emotionally, and professionally defeating and an untenable situation and no Catholic provider ought to feel she has to remain in it.

--

Fr. R. Vélez

765 14th Ave, Apt 1

San Francisco, CA 94118

Website: www.newmanbiography.com

[Guest guest]

I just got on Holy Spirit's website (burg, Pennsylvania). I have to commend and admire them!!! (http://www.hsh.org/women-s-services-2/) Very bold and aggressive approach to marketing the women's services without the least hint of being defensive, or giving the slightest impression of not being able to deliver the "full range of women's services". This seems extremely promising and I am interested in knowing more about them.

This is undoubtedly the future. Not that it is easy -- not by a longshot! But we are either proud of what we have and who we are as Catholic practitioners, or we are something else (God forbid that that something else is to be ashamed!)

Sincerely yours,

Dominic M. Pedulla MD, FACC, CNFPMC, ABVM, ACPh

Interventional Cardiologist, Endovascular Diplomate, Varicose Vein Specialist, Noncontraceptive Family Planning Consultant, Family Planning Researcher

Medical Director, The Oklahoma Vein and Endovascular Center (www.noveinok.com, veininfo@...)

Executive Director, The Edith Stein Foundation (www.theedithsteinfoundation.com)

(office)

(cell)

(FAX)

pedullad@...

“Our fundamental purpose is not to go out and help the poor. For us, this has only been a means. Our purpose is to maintain the Catholic faith within us, and to allow its diffusion to others through the instrument of charity.†Blessed Frederic Ozanam, a 19th century founder of the Society of Saint De

Re: Re: Situations that bishops CAN influence

Dominic,

Your last sentence reads, "Should we approach our bishops on this, and tell them we need their help?"

Who is "we"? The members of this List? NFP teachers in general? Priests?

Since 1977 I have periodically advocated that the NFP "movement" in the States and Canada needs an umbrella organization for those who teach chaste natural family planning. No FAM + whatever during the fertile time.

Yes, it would be great if individual bishops and the bishops as a body would do something about the situation you address. But what can they do about the situation of clinicians? Wouldn't it be wonderful if they would do something positive about those situations that they can influence right in their respective dioceses and parishes?

In 1989 a US bishops' committee urged that every engaged couple be required to attend a full course on NFP. Twenty-two years later, six dioceses have that requirement with a seventh trying to get there. The more recent bishops' documents on NFP and marriage failed to mention that requirement.

To repeat, an association that represented all the fully Catholic NFP organizations might have a better chance of having some influence.

Kippley

Re: Re: Situations Catholics face, On limiting evil vs. cooperation with evil

Again, such great points, Fr. ! Before becoming a nurse practitioner, I worked as an RN for 5 years in one of our local Catholic hospitals, St. 's, where contraceptives aren't prescribed and sterilizations aren't performed. That's one of the primary reasons I chose to work there b/c I knew I wouldn't have to take part in anything contrary to my faith which was a nice freedom.

I plan on talking w/ my collaborating physician next week to discuss having our front desk staff alert patients that I don't prescribe contracepives at the time of scheduling and/or when they come in (we also see walk-ins, too). As you put it, I think this is the best way to "resist the emotionally strain" of the situation.

Thank you so much!

,

I have read your question again, and think there is no need to repeat what and Fr. Tom have said so well. I will add however a few examples that suggest that Catholics can work "in very difficult circumstances" if they can resist the emotional strain and are not being used.

-NFP physicians hospitalize patients in hospitals where contraceptives are prescribed. Should they stop hospitalizing their patients in these hospitals because this involves some monetary support for them? I only know of one hospital where contraceptives are not prescribed, the Hospital of the Univ. of Navarre, my alma mater. I imagine there are a few more.

-Priests in a parish hear confessions side by side to other priests who teach things contrary to the faith, for ex. regarding sexuality. Do associate pastors positively need to leave any assignment where this is happening?

-Are Catholics who work in large corporations or the stock exchange and witness immoral practices always obliged to leave even if they are not formally cooperating in evil actions?

-We pay taxes to a government that pays for abortions; should we stop paying taxes?

I think the general answer to all these questions is "no." Naturally each situation needs to be studied with the necessary details and a person should distance himself as much as possible from wrong doing.

Having said this, I think you should try to distance yourself more from the prescription of contraceptives, for example, by giving the patient a card explaining what you do without referring them to your colleague. But you are doing a lot of good in your work, and I commend you for this,

Fr.

Dominic,

I appreciate your delicate conscience in the matter when so many are callous. I believe, you, Fr. and I do agree in principle, however. Question is in the translation without splitting hairs. It may all come down to 's

statement as you said, "we decided". My presumption is that wanted 'no part' in providing contraceptives to patients, directly or indirectly. Unfortunately, I am not familiar with the health practice protocols and doctors' office routines as described them. This world forces us into many moral choices. I think, however, it may be possible to work in a doctor's office stipulating to those in charge one's moral limits and hopefully they agree and honor one's conscience. would need to 'decide' if she is being used for immoral purposes. By way of analogy I recall a personal moral quandary I faced when ( way back when ) I was in the Army Reserves during the Viet Nam War which I considered immoral. I had decided that if I was "called up" in the conflict I would refuse and be court-marshaled and perhaps imprisoned. I was not called up. That was not the Army I joined, and while a Reservist I did my duty. Blessings,

Fr. Tom

Dominic,

You make it sound like it is so easy. Unfortunately, it is not. For instance, in Florida, where is practicing, it is required to submit a written protocol to the State Board, and this protocol has to be approved, in writing by a physician the NP, CNM, or CRNA has made arrangements with for "back-up", is employed by, "supervised" etc.So in essence, we/they have to have "approval" for what we are doing and how we are doing it.

The exact wording, from http://www.doh.state.fl.us/mqa/nursing/nur_statutes.html:

An advanced registered nurse practitioner shall perform those functions authorized in this section within the framework of an established protocol that is filed with the board upon biennial license renewal and within 30 days after entering into a supervisory relationship with a physician or changes to the protocol. The board shall review the protocol to ensure compliance with applicable regulatory standards for protocols. The board shall refer to the department licensees submitting protocols that are not compliant with the regulatory standards for protocols. A practitioner currently licensed under chapter 458, chapter 459, or chapter 466 shall maintain supervision for directing the specific course of medical treatment. Within the established framework, an advanced registered nurse practitioner may:....

So you can see the dilema for those of us who are not physicians. I MOVED my whole family to OMAHA, and took a temporary job there precisely so I could attend the combined program Creighton Model training. Having that training in no way made it easier to have a private practice- at least not one that would be substantial enough to pay for my mortgage and my groceries, let alone clothing and misc for my children. I have not even had enough NFP clients to become certified as a practitioner in the 7 years since I completed that program. And since there have been very few physicians who know and practice only NFP, let alone the Creighton Model, it has been very difficult to find any job or position of employment that is supporting of that. The best we - as NP's/CNM's (and probably PA's) can get is tolerance, and even that is hard to come by. To get it in *writing* that they (physicians) approve of our protocols is even harder. Add to that the difficulty in getting the physicians to agree to "let us" RX the medications that are needed, (ie bio-identical progesterone, HCG tx, low dose clomid, etc).- and we have another battle...

That said, every state has different rules, and some states do allow for independent practice, such as Iowa, Arizona, New Mexico, Colorado and perhaps a few others I can't recall offhand.

I am not trying to be negative, but you need to understand that as hard as it is for a physician to be NFP only, it can be that much harder for a non-physician provider to be NFP only.

Your last 2 statements are very true, however, that is where the cross comes in. I think that has done all that she can in her situation, and do not agree that telling the patient what to expect next is "helping" or being complicit in any way. Nor is is she being complicit in agreeing to letting the physicians see the patients behind her. She really has no choice in this situation, other than to leave the practice, unless one of the other suggestions we have made will be agreeable. I think the fact that the physicians she is working with are at least being tolerant of her NFP only practice, is admirable on their part. They obviously do not have the background or understanding for our theological, ideological or biological objections to the practice of contraception. Sounds like is working on that end of it though!

Sandrock, RNC-OB, APRN, CNM, MSN

Now to go beyond being negative! After going to Creighton and becoming both NFP medical consultant and practitioner, she will see the way forward out of this because she will see that she does not need to be in this association to have a practice. (I did the same thing before establishing my "contraceptology" clinic) Nor does she need to be used so that the FP-MD can waltz in and write the corrupt prescription after has done all the hard work, only to be severely demoralized by the end result and by being undermined consistently. This last thing and the moral problem is the likely reason she feels the way she does and who can blame her. To me it is morally, emotionally, and professionally defeating and an untenable situation and no Catholic provider ought to feel she has to remain in it.

--

Fr. R. Vélez

765 14th Ave, Apt 1

San Francisco, CA 94118

Website: www.newmanbiography.com

[Guest guest]

and Dominic,, in answer to the question, "   " Should we approach our bishops on this, and tell them we need their help? "     Who is " we " ?  The members of this List?  NFP teachers in general?  Priests? " -- I refer you to the Apostle, ,  " But how can they call on him [Christ] in whom they have not believed?  And how can they believe in him of whom they have not heard?  And how can they hear without someone to preach? And how can people preach unless they are sent? " How beautiful are the feet of those who bring the good news " ( Romans 10:14-15 ). The vast majority of Catholics know too little of their faith including Natural Family Planning. Those principally ordained to " preach " and " bring the good news " are our priests especially at Mass delivering homilies. Here " catholic " doctrine is authentic.  At other 'venues', unfortunately, the ring of authenticity may be deniable as " that's your opinion " . Many Catholics as many others are opinionated, but the spoken words at Mass or other sacramental celebrations are effective which I know from personal experience. Unfortunately, complaining parishioners may be more vocal and influential than others in the parish. Loyal Catholics by virtue of their faith should support and counter those who complain and resist the Word.  More parish priests would then be encouraged to preach the truth.  Here is where all of us can assist.

Fr. Tom

 

I just got on Holy Spirit's website (burg, Pennsylvania). I have to commend and admire them!!! (http://www.hsh.org/women-s-services-2/) Very bold and aggressive approach to marketing the women's services without the least hint of being defensive, or giving the slightest impression of not being able to deliver the " full range of women's services " . This seems extremely promising and I am interested in knowing more about them. 

This is undoubtedly the future. Not that it is easy -- not by a longshot! But we are either proud of what we have and who we are as Catholic practitioners, or we are something else (God forbid that that something else is to be ashamed!)

Sincerely yours,

Dominic M. Pedulla MD, FACC, CNFPMC, ABVM, ACPh

Interventional Cardiologist, Endovascular Diplomate, Varicose Vein Specialist, Noncontraceptive Family Planning Consultant, Family Planning Researcher

Medical Director, The Oklahoma Vein and Endovascular Center (www.noveinok.com, veininfo@...)

Executive Director, The Edith Stein Foundation (www.theedithsteinfoundation.com)

(office)

(cell)

(FAX)

pedullad@...

“Our fundamental purpose is not to go out and help the poor. For us, this has only been a means. Our purpose is to maintain the Catholic faith within us, and to allow its diffusion to others through the instrument of charity.” Blessed Frederic Ozanam, a 19th century founder of the Society of Saint De

Re: Re: Situations that bishops CAN influence

 

Dominic,

    Your last sentence reads, " Should we approach our bishops on this, and tell them we need their help? "

    Who is " we " ?  The members of this List?  NFP teachers in general?  Priests?

    Since 1977 I have periodically advocated that the NFP " movement " in the States and Canada needs an umbrella organization for those who teach chaste natural family planning.  No FAM + whatever during the fertile time.  

      Yes, it would be great if individual bishops and the bishops as a body would do something about the situation you address.  But what can they do about the situation of clinicians?  Wouldn't it be wonderful if they would do something positive about those situations that they can influence right in their respective dioceses and parishes? 

    In 1989 a US bishops' committee urged that every engaged couple be required to attend a full course on NFP.   Twenty-two years later, six dioceses have that requirement with a seventh trying to get there.  The more recent bishops' documents on NFP and marriage failed to mention that requirement.  

    To repeat, an association that represented all the fully Catholic NFP organizations might have a better chance of having some influence.

 

Kippley 

 

 

Re: Re: Situations Catholics face, On limiting evil vs. cooperation with evil

 

Again, such great points, Fr. !  Before becoming a nurse practitioner, I worked as an RN for 5 years in one of our local Catholic hospitals, St. 's, where contraceptives aren't prescribed and sterilizations aren't performed.  That's one of the primary reasons I chose to work there b/c I knew I wouldn't have to take part in anything contrary to my faith which was a nice freedom.

 

I plan on talking w/ my collaborating physician next week to discuss having our front desk staff alert patients that I don't prescribe contracepives at the time of scheduling and/or when they come in (we also see walk-ins, too).  As you put it, I think this is the best way to " resist the emotionally strain " of the situation. 

 

Thank you so much!

 

, 

I have read your question again, and think there is no need to repeat what and Fr. Tom have said so well. I will add however a few examples that suggest that Catholics can work " in very difficult circumstances " if they can resist the emotional strain and are not being used.

-NFP physicians hospitalize patients in hospitals where contraceptives are prescribed. Should they stop hospitalizing their patients in these hospitals because this involves some monetary support for them? I only know of one hospital where contraceptives are not prescribed, the Hospital of the Univ. of Navarre, my alma mater. I imagine there are a few more.

-Priests in a parish hear confessions side by side to other priests who teach things contrary to the faith, for ex. regarding sexuality. Do associate pastors positively need to leave any assignment where this is happening?

-Are Catholics who work in large corporations or the stock exchange and witness immoral practices always obliged to leave even if they are not formally cooperating in evil actions?

-We pay taxes to a government that pays for abortions; should we stop paying taxes?

I think the general answer to all these questions is " no. " Naturally each situation needs to be studied with the necessary details and a person should distance himself as much as possible from wrong doing. 

Having said this, I think you should try to distance yourself more from the prescription of contraceptives, for example, by giving the patient a card explaining what you do without referring them to your colleague. But you are doing a lot of good in your work, and I commend you for this,

Fr.

 

Dominic,

I appreciate your delicate conscience in the matter when so many are callous.  I believe, you, Fr. and I do agree in principle, however.  Question is in the translation without splitting hairs.  It may all come down to 's

statement as you said, " we decided " .  My presumption is that wanted 'no part' in providing contraceptives to patients, directly or indirectly. Unfortunately, I am not familiar with the health practice protocols and doctors' office routines as described them. This world forces us into many moral choices.  I think, however, it may be possible to work in a doctor's office stipulating to those in charge one's moral limits and hopefully they agree and honor one's conscience.  would need to 'decide' if she is being used for immoral purposes.  By way of analogy I recall a personal moral quandary I faced when ( way back when ) I was in the Army Reserves during the Viet Nam War which I considered immoral.  I had decided that if I was " called up " in the conflict I would refuse and be court-marshaled and perhaps imprisoned.  I was not called up. That was not the Army I joined, and while a Reservist I did my duty.  Blessings,

Fr. Tom

 

Dominic,

You make it sound like it is so easy. Unfortunately, it is not. For instance, in Florida, where is practicing, it is required to submit a written protocol to the State Board, and this protocol has to be approved, in writing by a physician the NP, CNM, or CRNA has made arrangements with for " back-up " , is employed by, " supervised " etc.So in essence, we/they have to have " approval " for what we are doing and how we are doing it.

The exact wording, from http://www.doh.state.fl.us/mqa/nursing/nur_statutes.html:

An advanced registered nurse practitioner shall perform those functions authorized in this section within the framework of an established protocol that is filed with the board upon biennial license renewal and within 30 days after entering into a supervisory relationship with a physician or changes to the protocol. The board shall review the protocol to ensure compliance with applicable regulatory standards for protocols. The board shall refer to the department licensees submitting protocols that are not compliant with the regulatory standards for protocols. A practitioner currently licensed under chapter 458, chapter 459, or chapter 466 shall maintain supervision for directing the specific course of medical treatment. Within the established framework, an advanced registered nurse practitioner may:....

So you can see the dilema for those of us who are not physicians. I MOVED my whole family to OMAHA, and took a temporary job there precisely so I could attend the combined program Creighton Model training. Having that training in no way made it easier to have a private practice- at least not one that would be substantial enough to pay for my mortgage and my groceries, let alone clothing and misc for my children. I have not even had enough NFP clients to become certified as a practitioner in the 7 years since I completed that program. And since there have been very few physicians who know and practice only NFP, let alone the Creighton Model, it has been very difficult to find any job or position of employment that is supporting of that. The best we - as NP's/CNM's (and probably PA's) can get is tolerance, and even that is hard to come by.  To get it in *writing* that they (physicians) approve of our protocols is even harder.  Add to that the difficulty in getting the physicians to agree to " let us " RX the medications that are needed, (ie bio-identical progesterone, HCG tx, low dose clomid, etc).- and we have another battle...

That said, every state has different rules, and some states do allow for independent practice, such as Iowa, Arizona, New Mexico, Colorado and perhaps a few others I can't recall offhand. 

I am not trying to be negative, but you need to understand that as hard as it is for a physician to be NFP only, it can be that much harder for a non-physician provider to be NFP only. 

 

Your last 2 statements are very true, however, that is where the cross comes in. I think that has done all that she can in her situation, and do not agree that telling the patient what to expect next is " helping " or being complicit in any way. Nor is is she being complicit in agreeing to letting the physicians see the patients behind her. She really has no choice in this situation, other than to leave the practice, unless one of the other suggestions we have made will be agreeable. I think the fact that the physicians she is working with are at least being tolerant of her NFP only practice, is admirable on their part. They obviously do not have the background or understanding for our theological,  ideological or biological objections to the practice of contraception. Sounds like is working on that end of it though!

Sandrock, RNC-OB, APRN, CNM, MSN

Now to go beyond being negative! After going to Creighton and becoming both NFP medical consultant and practitioner, she will see the way forward out of this because she will see that she does not need to be in this association to have a practice. (I did the same thing before establishing my " contraceptology " clinic) Nor does she need to be used so that the FP-MD can waltz in and write the corrupt prescription after has done all the hard work, only to be severely demoralized by the end result and by being undermined consistently. This last thing and the moral problem is the likely reason she feels the way she does and who can blame her. To me it is morally, emotionally, and professionally defeating and an untenable situation and no Catholic provider ought to feel she has to remain in it.

--

Fr. R. Vélez

765 14th Ave, Apt 1

San Francisco, CA 94118

Website: www.newmanbiography.com

[Guest guest]

You are so right Father Tom. I believe VI said in HV something to the effect that at the words of the priest in the homily the Holy Spirit causes those words and that truth to resonate in the hearts of the believer just as you are saying, and as perhaps St. was saying in the passage below. This is part of the sacramental "munus docendi" that is your power and not that of the non-ordained.

But, sometimes bishops and priests all too easily forget both the sacred power that is theirs and the duty that goes along with it. Sometimes they need encouragement to remember it fully and act on it. I often remember, when considering this subject of the laity's role in strengthening the pastors, St. 's words -- I believe in 2 Cor. 3 -- where he says something like "Have we need of letters of recommendation (to come among you and preach) as some do? But you are our letter of recommendation, written on our hearts, not on tablets of stone but rather by the Holy Spirit". In other words too seldom does the parish priest or bishop see in the laity both a convinced source of support for his arduous pastoral task, as well as a convincing testimony of true love. He looks at culture, at the average Sunday Mass congregation, or the average crowd visible just about anywhere, and he sees love growing cold (I don't say there aren't any bright spots at all). Contraceptive congregations are not that source of visible support, that much-needed big fat "yes" to self-sacrificing love the priest desperately needs to see in the congregation, that is if he is to be strengthened in his own exceedingly demanding vocation to love. Love is needed to reform a diocese, correct wayward laymen professionals, etc.

But today's bishops would do well to seek out their Catholic doctors in their own dioceses and start calling them in in a spirit of fatherly love and support, seek to befriend them, but also refuse to shrink from the needed pastoral task of calling them too to holiness and reminding them of the thief in the night, which in their case means "cease and desist" from all that is unholy in their work and now, not tomorrow! This way, not only can their souls be saved but also all those being led into scandal, i.e., into sin by the doctor's recommendations, counsel, and interventions. If they refuse they refuse, but at least that way they had a chance.

It's just one man's opinion, but my gosh what do they have to lose, considering that right now they're losing almost the entire Church in the West!

Sincerely yours,

Dominic M. Pedulla MD, FACC, CNFPMC, ABVM, ACPh

Interventional Cardiologist, Endovascular Diplomate, Varicose Vein Specialist, Noncontraceptive Family Planning Consultant, Family Planning Researcher

Medical Director, The Oklahoma Vein and Endovascular Center (www.noveinok.com, veininfo@...)

Executive Director, The Edith Stein Foundation (www.theedithsteinfoundation.com)

(office)

(cell)

(FAX)

pedullad@...

“Our fundamental purpose is not to go out and help the poor. For us, this has only been a means. Our purpose is to maintain the Catholic faith within us, and to allow its diffusion to others through the instrument of charity.†Blessed Frederic Ozanam, a 19th century founder of the Society of Saint De

Re: Re: Situations that bishops CAN influence

Dominic,

Your last sentence reads, "Should we approach our bishops on this, and tell them we need their help?"

Who is "we"? The members of this List? NFP teachers in general? Priests?

Since 1977 I have periodically advocated that the NFP "movement" in the States and Canada needs an umbrella organization for those who teach chaste natural family planning. No FAM + whatever during the fertile time.

Yes, it would be great if individual bishops and the bishops as a body would do something about the situation you address. But what can they do about the situation of clinicians? Wouldn't it be wonderful if they would do something positive about those situations that they can influence right in their respective dioceses and parishes?

In 1989 a US bishops' committee urged that every engaged couple be required to attend a full course on NFP. Twenty-two years later, six dioceses have that requirement with a seventh trying to get there. The more recent bishops' documents on NFP and marriage failed to mention that requirement.

To repeat, an association that represented all the fully Catholic NFP organizations might have a better chance of having some influence.

Kippley

Re: Re: Situations Catholics face, On limiting evil vs. cooperation with evil

Again, such great points, Fr. ! Before becoming a nurse practitioner, I worked as an RN for 5 years in one of our local Catholic hospitals, St. 's, where contraceptives aren't prescribed and sterilizations aren't performed. That's one of the primary reasons I chose to work there b/c I knew I wouldn't have to take part in anything contrary to my faith which was a nice freedom.

I plan on talking w/ my collaborating physician next week to discuss having our front desk staff alert patients that I don't prescribe contracepives at the time of scheduling and/or when they come in (we also see walk-ins, too). As you put it, I think this is the best way to "resist the emotionally strain" of the situation.

Thank you so much!

,

I have read your question again, and think there is no need to repeat what and Fr. Tom have said so well. I will add however a few examples that suggest that Catholics can work "in very difficult circumstances" if they can resist the emotional strain and are not being used.

-NFP physicians hospitalize patients in hospitals where contraceptives are prescribed. Should they stop hospitalizing their patients in these hospitals because this involves some monetary support for them? I only know of one hospital where contraceptives are not prescribed, the Hospital of the Univ. of Navarre, my alma mater. I imagine there are a few more.

-Priests in a parish hear confessions side by side to other priests who teach things contrary to the faith, for ex. regarding sexuality. Do associate pastors positively need to leave any assignment where this is happening?

-Are Catholics who work in large corporations or the stock exchange and witness immoral practices always obliged to leave even if they are not formally cooperating in evil actions?

-We pay taxes to a government that pays for abortions; should we stop paying taxes?

I think the general answer to all these questions is "no." Naturally each situation needs to be studied with the necessary details and a person should distance himself as much as possible from wrong doing.

Having said this, I think you should try to distance yourself more from the prescription of contraceptives, for example, by giving the patient a card explaining what you do without referring them to your colleague. But you are doing a lot of good in your work, and I commend you for this,

Fr.

Dominic,

I appreciate your delicate conscience in the matter when so many are callous. I believe, you, Fr. and I do agree in principle, however. Question is in the translation without splitting hairs. It may all come down to 's

statement as you said, "we decided". My presumption is that wanted 'no part' in providing contraceptives to patients, directly or indirectly. Unfortunately, I am not familiar with the health practice protocols and doctors' office routines as described them. This world forces us into many moral choices. I think, however, it may be possible to work in a doctor's office stipulating to those in charge one's moral limits and hopefully they agree and honor one's conscience. would need to 'decide' if she is being used for immoral purposes. By way of analogy I recall a personal moral quandary I faced when ( way back when ) I was in the Army Reserves during the Viet Nam War which I considered immoral. I had decided that if I was "called up" in the conflict I would refuse and be court-marshaled and perhaps imprisoned. I was not called up. That was not the Army I joined, and while a Reservist I did my duty. Blessings,

Fr. Tom

Dominic,

You make it sound like it is so easy. Unfortunately, it is not. For instance, in Florida, where is practicing, it is required to submit a written protocol to the State Board, and this protocol has to be approved, in writing by a physician the NP, CNM, or CRNA has made arrangements with for "back-up", is employed by, "supervised" etc.So in essence, we/they have to have "approval" for what we are doing and how we are doing it.

The exact wording, from http://www.doh.state.fl.us/mqa/nursing/nur_statutes.html:

An advanced registered nurse practitioner shall perform those functions authorized in this section within the framework of an established protocol that is filed with the board upon biennial license renewal and within 30 days after entering into a supervisory relationship with a physician or changes to the protocol. The board shall review the protocol to ensure compliance with applicable regulatory standards for protocols. The board shall refer to the department licensees submitting protocols that are not compliant with the regulatory standards for protocols. A practitioner currently licensed under chapter 458, chapter 459, or chapter 466 shall maintain supervision for directing the specific course of medical treatment. Within the established framework, an advanced registered nurse practitioner may:....

So you can see the dilema for those of us who are not physicians. I MOVED my whole family to OMAHA, and took a temporary job there precisely so I could attend the combined program Creighton Model training. Having that training in no way made it easier to have a private practice- at least not one that would be substantial enough to pay for my mortgage and my groceries, let alone clothing and misc for my children. I have not even had enough NFP clients to become certified as a practitioner in the 7 years since I completed that program. And since there have been very few physicians who know and practice only NFP, let alone the Creighton Model, it has been very difficult to find any job or position of employment that is supporting of that. The best we - as NP's/CNM's (and probably PA's) can get is tolerance, and even that is hard to come by. To get it in *writing* that they (physicians) approve of our protocols is even harder. Add to that the difficulty in getting the physicians to agree to "let us" RX the medications that are needed, (ie bio-identical progesterone, HCG tx, low dose clomid, etc).- and we have another battle...

That said, every state has different rules, and some states do allow for independent practice, such as Iowa, Arizona, New Mexico, Colorado and perhaps a few others I can't recall offhand.

I am not trying to be negative, but you need to understand that as hard as it is for a physician to be NFP only, it can be that much harder for a non-physician provider to be NFP only.

Your last 2 statements are very true, however, that is where the cross comes in. I think that has done all that she can in her situation, and do not agree that telling the patient what to expect next is "helping" or being complicit in any way. Nor is is she being complicit in agreeing to letting the physicians see the patients behind her. She really has no choice in this situation, other than to leave the practice, unless one of the other suggestions we have made will be agreeable. I think the fact that the physicians she is working with are at least being tolerant of her NFP only practice, is admirable on their part. They obviously do not have the background or understanding for our theological, ideological or biological objections to the practice of contraception. Sounds like is working on that end of it though!

Sandrock, RNC-OB, APRN, CNM, MSN

Now to go beyond being negative! After going to Creighton and becoming both NFP medical consultant and practitioner, she will see the way forward out of this because she will see that she does not need to be in this association to have a practice. (I did the same thing before establishing my "contraceptology" clinic) Nor does she need to be used so that the FP-MD can waltz in and write the corrupt prescription after has done all the hard work, only to be severely demoralized by the end result and by being undermined consistently. This last thing and the moral problem is the likely reason she feels the way she does and who can blame her. To me it is morally, emotionally, and professionally defeating and an untenable situation and no Catholic provider ought to feel she has to remain in it.

--

Fr. R. Vélez

765 14th Ave, Apt 1

San Francisco, CA 94118

Website: www.newmanbiography.com

[Guest guest]

Here is another God-incidence! I've been cleaning out stuff in my house, and just recently gave away 5 grocery bags full of audio tapes and a few CDs from conferences in the past, and others that I had just purchased to listen to in the car. I finally decided I would never listen to them again, and gave them away. But I kept a select few, and have been listening to them.I just finished listening to a talk that Dr. Kim Hardey from Lafayette, LA gave to some seminarians as part of a day or so of education on Feb 16, 2000. The publisher is listed as Champions of the Truth, Inc. in Lafayette. Is Dr. Hardey by any chance on this list?!?At any rate, he, as a ObGyn NFP-only doctor, gives his thoughts to the future priests about how we can get more people practicing NFP. His suggestions sound like a big plug for a relatively new youth ministry organization called Fraternus, which just happens to have a chapter in LA south of New Orleans. Fraternus was not even a thought in 2000; it is just beginning its 3rd program year,At any rate, Dr. Hardey says it is too late to wait until marriage prep to teach them about NFP because they have mostly already embarked on a lifestyle that includes contraception, pornography, etc. He says we must reach out to boys in the 7th and 8th grade to get them started on a life of chastity, etc. (I hope I'm remembering this accurately enough, but that is the gist of it.)And he exhorts the future priests to preach on this subject frequently to conteract the culture, which exerts such a strong influence the other 6 days and 23 hours of the week.I was hoping to do something with that tape after I get someone to convert it to a CD for me. I just thought it fit right in with what you've been discussing.Diane Royalformer CCL NFP teacherville, FLYou are so right Father Tom. I believe VI said in HV something to the effect that at the words of the priest in the homily the Holy Spirit causes those words and that truth to resonate in the hearts of the believer just as you are saying, and as perhaps St. was saying in the passage below. This is part of the sacramental "munus docendi" that is your power and not that of the non-ordained.But, sometimes bishops and priests all too easily forget both the sacred power that is theirs and the duty that goes along with it. Sometimes they need encouragement to remember it fully and act on it. I often remember, when considering this subject of the laity's role in strengthening the pastors, St. 's words -- I believe in 2 Cor. 3 -- where he says something like "Have we need of letters of recommendation (to come among you and preach) as some do? But you are our letter of recommendation, written on our hearts, not on tablets of stone but rather by the Holy Spirit". In other words too seldom does the parish priest or bishop see in the laity both a convinced source of support for his arduous pastoral task, as well as a convincing testimony of true love. He looks at culture, at the average Sunday Mass congregation, or the average crowd visible just about anywhere, and he sees love growing cold (I don't say there aren't any bright spots at all). Contraceptive congregations are not that source of visible support, that much-needed big fat "yes" to self-sacrificing love the priest desperately needs to see in the congregation, that is if he is to be strengthened in his own exceedingly demanding vocation to love. Love is needed to reform a diocese, correct wayward laymen professionals, etc.But today's bishops would do well to seek out their Catholic doctors in their own dioceses and start calling them in in a spirit of fatherly love and support, seek to befriend them, but also refuse to shrink from the needed pastoral task of calling them too to holiness and reminding them of the thief in the night, which in their case means "cease and desist" from all that is unholy in their work and now, not tomorrow! This way, not only can their souls be saved but also all those being led into scandal, i.e., into sin by the doctor's recommendations, counsel, and interventions. If they refuse they refuse, but at least that way they had a chance.It's just one man's opinion, but my gosh what do they have to lose, considering that right now they're losing almost the entire Church in the West!Sincerely yours,Dominic M. Pedulla MD, FACC, CNFPMC, ABVM, ACPhInterventional Cardiologist, Endovascular Diplomate, Varicose Vein Specialist, Noncontraceptive Family Planning Consultant, Family Planning ResearcherMedical Director, The Oklahoma Vein and Endovascular Center (www.noveinok.com,veininfo@...)Executive Director, The Edith Stein Foundation (www.theedithsteinfoundation.com) (office) (cell) (FAX)pedullad@...“Our fundamental purpose is not to go out and help the poor. For us, this has only been a means. Our purpose is to maintain the Catholic faith within us, and to allow its diffusion to others through the instrument of charity.” Blessed Frederic Ozanam, a 19th century founder of the Society of Saint De Re: Re: Situations that bishops CAN influence Dominic, Your last sentence reads, "Should we approach our bishops on this, and tell them we need their help?" Who is "we"? The members of this List? NFP teachers in general? Priests? Since 1977 I have periodically advocated that the NFP "movement" in the States and Canada needs an umbrella organization for those who teach chaste natural family planning. No FAM + whatever during the fertile time. Yes, it would be great if individual bishops and the bishops as a body would do something about the situation you address. But what can they do about the situation of clinicians? Wouldn't it be wonderful if they would do something positive about those situations that they can influence right in their respective dioceses and parishes? In 1989 a US bishops' committee urged that every engaged couple be required to attend a full course on NFP. Twenty-two years later, six dioceses have that requirement with a seventh trying to get there. The more recent bishops' documents on NFP and marriage failed to mention that requirement. To repeat, an association that represented all the fully Catholic NFP organizations might have a better chance of having some influence. Kippley Re: Re: Situations Catholics face, On limiting evil vs. cooperation with evil Again, such great points, Fr. ! Before becoming a nurse practitioner, I worked as an RN for 5 years in one of our local Catholic hospitals, St. 's, where contraceptives aren't prescribed and sterilizations aren't performed. That's one of the primary reasons I chose to work there b/c I knew I wouldn't have to take part in anything contrary to my faith which was a nice freedom. I plan on talking w/ my collaborating physician next week to discuss having our front desk staff alert patients that I don't prescribe contracepives at the time of scheduling and/or when they come in (we also see walk-ins, too). As you put it, I think this is the best way to "resist the emotionally strain" of the situation. Thank you so much! , I have read your question again, and think there is no need to repeat what and Fr. Tom have said so well. I will add however a few examples that suggest that Catholics can work "in very difficult circumstances" if they can resist the emotional strain and are not being used.-NFP physicians hospitalize patients in hospitals where contraceptives are prescribed. Should they stop hospitalizing their patients in these hospitals because this involves some monetary support for them? I only know of one hospital where contraceptives are not prescribed, the Hospital of the Univ. of Navarre, my alma mater. I imagine there are a few more.-Priests in a parish hear confessions side by side to other priests who teach things contrary to the faith, for ex. regarding sexuality. Do associate pastors positively need to leave any assignment where this is happening?-Are Catholics who work in large corporations or the stock exchange and witness immoral practices always obliged to leave even if they are not formally cooperating in evil actions?-We pay taxes to a government that pays for abortions; should we stop paying taxes?I think the general answer to all these questions is "no." Naturally each situation needs to be studied with the necessary details and a person should distance himself as much as possible from wrong doing. Having said this, I think you should try to distance yourself more from the prescription of contraceptives, for example, by giving the patient a card explaining what you do without referring them to your colleague. But you are doing a lot of good in your work, and I commend you for this,Fr. Dominic,I appreciate your delicate conscience in the matter when so many are callous. I believe, you, Fr. and I do agree in principle, however. Question is in the translation without splitting hairs. It may all come down to 'sstatement as you said, "we decided". My presumption is that wanted 'no part' in providing contraceptives to patients, directly or indirectly. Unfortunately, I am not familiar with the health practice protocols and doctors' office routines as described them. This world forces us into many moral choices. I think, however, it may be possible to work in a doctor's office stipulating to those in charge one's moral limits and hopefully they agree and honor one's conscience. would need to 'decide' if she is being used for immoral purposes. By way of analogy I recall a personal moral quandary I faced when ( way back when ) I was in the Army Reserves during the Viet Nam War which I considered immoral. I had decided that if I was "called up" in the conflict I would refuse and be court-marshaled and perhaps imprisoned. I was not called up. That was not the Army I joined, and while a Reservist I did my duty. Blessings,Fr. Tom Dominic,You make it sound like it is so easy. Unfortunately, it is not. For instance, in Florida, where is practicing, it is required to submit a written protocol to the State Board, and this protocol has to be approved, in writing by a physician the NP, CNM, or CRNA has made arrangements with for "back-up", is employed by, "supervised" etc.So in essence, we/they have to have "approval" for what we are doing and how we are doing it.The exact wording, from http://www.doh.state.fl.us/mqa/nursing/nur_statutes.html:An advanced registered nurse practitioner shall perform those functions authorized in this section within the framework of an established protocol that is filed with the board upon biennial license renewal and within 30 days after entering into a supervisory relationship with a physician or changes to the protocol. The board shall review the protocol to ensure compliance with applicable regulatory standards for protocols. The board shall refer to the department licensees submitting protocols that are not compliant with the regulatory standards for protocols. A practitioner currently licensed under chapter 458, chapter 459, or chapter 466 shall maintain supervision for directing the specific course of medical treatment. Within the established framework, an advanced registered nurse practitioner may:....So you can see the dilema for those of us who are not physicians. I MOVED my whole family to OMAHA, and took a temporary job there precisely so I could attend the combined program Creighton Model training. Having that training in no way made it easier to have a private practice- at least not one that would be substantial enough to pay for my mortgage and my groceries, let alone clothing and misc for my children.I have not even had enough NFP clients to become certified as a practitioner in the 7 years since I completed that program. And since there have been very few physicians who know and practice only NFP, let alone the Creighton Model, it has been very difficult to find any job or position of employment that is supporting of that. The best we - as NP's/CNM's (and probably PA's) can get is tolerance, and even that is hard to come by. To get it in *writing* that they (physicians) approve of our protocols is even harder. Add to that the difficulty in getting the physicians to agree to "let us" RX the medications that are needed, (ie bio-identical progesterone, HCG tx, low dose clomid, etc).- and we have another battle...That said, every state has different rules, and some states do allow for independent practice, such as Iowa, Arizona, New Mexico, Colorado and perhaps a few others I can't recall offhand. I am not trying to be negative, but you need to understand that as hard as it is for a physician to be NFP only, it can be that much harder for a non-physician provider to be NFP only. Your last 2 statements are very true, however, that is where the cross comes in. I think that has done all that she can in her situation, and do not agree that telling the patient what to expect next is "helping" or being complicit in any way. Nor is is she being complicit in agreeing to letting the physicians see the patients behind her. She really has no choice in this situation, other than to leave the practice, unless one of the other suggestions we have made will be agreeable. I think the fact that the physicians she is working with are at least being tolerant of her NFP only practice, is admirable on their part. They obviously do not have the background or understanding for our theological, ideological or biological objections to the practice of contraception. Sounds like is working on that end of it though! Sandrock, RNC-OB, APRN, CNM, MSNNow to go beyond being negative! After going to Creighton and becoming both NFP medical consultant and practitioner, she will see the way forward out of this because she will see that she does not need to be in this association to have a practice. (I did the same thing before establishing my "contraceptology" clinic) Nor does she need to be used so that the FP-MD can waltz in and write the corrupt prescription after has done all the hard work, only to be severely demoralized by the end result and by being undermined consistently. This last thing and the moral problem is the likely reason she feels the way she does and who can blame her. To me it is morally, emotionally, and professionally defeating and an untenable situation and no Catholic provider ought to feel she has to remain in it.-- Fr. R. Vélez765 14th Ave, Apt 1San Francisco, CA 94118Website: www.newmanbiography.com

[Guest guest]

Agreed, Diane.  That was our thought also when we began Teen STAR in 1980.  It now operates – in varying extent- in 31 countries. Hanna Klaus, M.D.Natural Family Planning Center of Washington, D.C. and Teen STAR Program4400 East West Highway # 911Bethesda, MD 20814-4510  hannaklaus@...http://www.teenstarprogram.org From: nfpprofessionals [mailto:nfpprofessionals ] On Behalf Of Diane RoyalSent: Thursday, July 28, 2011 8:53 AMTo: nfpprofessionals Subject: Re: Re: Situations that bishops CAN influence Here is another God-incidence! I've been cleaning out stuff in my house, and just recently gave away 5 grocery bags full of audio tapes and a few CDs from conferences in the past, and others that I had just purchased to listen to in the car. I finally decided I would never listen to them again, and gave them away. But I kept a select few, and have been listening to them. I just finished listening to a talk that Dr. Kim Hardey from Lafayette, LA gave to some seminarians as part of a day or so of education on Feb 16, 2000. The publisher is listed as Champions of the Truth, Inc. in Lafayette. Is Dr. Hardey by any chance on this list?!? At any rate, he, as a ObGyn NFP-only doctor, gives his thoughts to the future priests about how we can get more people practicing NFP. His suggestions sound like a big plug for a relatively new youth ministry organization called Fraternus, which just happens to have a chapter in LA south of New Orleans. Fraternus was not even a thought in 2000; it is just beginning its 3rd program year, At any rate, Dr. Hardey says it is too late to wait until marriage prep to teach them about NFP because they have mostly already embarked on a lifestyle that includes contraception, pornography, etc. He says we must reach out to boys in the 7th and 8th grade to get them started on a life of chastity, etc. (I hope I'm remembering this accurately enough, but that is the gist of it.) And he exhorts the future priests to preach on this subject frequently to conteract the culture, which exerts such a strong influence the other 6 days and 23 hours of the week. I was hoping to do something with that tape after I get someone to convert it to a CD for me. I just thought it fit right in with what you've been discussing. Diane Royalformer CCL NFP teacherville, FL You are so right Father Tom. I believe VI said in HV something to the effect that at the words of the priest in the homily the Holy Spirit causes those words and that truth to resonate in the hearts of the believer just as you are saying, and as perhaps St. was saying in the passage below. This is part of the sacramental " munus docendi " that is your power and not that of the non-ordained. But, sometimes bishops and priests all too easily forget both the sacred power that is theirs and the duty that goes along with it. Sometimes they need encouragement to remember it fully and act on it. I often remember, when considering this subject of the laity's role in strengthening the pastors, St. 's words -- I believe in 2 Cor. 3 -- where he says something like " Have we need of letters of recommendation (to come among you and preach) as some do? But you are our letter of recommendation, written on our hearts, not on tablets of stone but rather by the Holy Spirit " . In other words too seldom does the parish priest or bishop see in the laity both a convinced source of support for his arduous pastoral task, as well as a convincing testimony of true love. He looks at culture, at the average Sunday Mass congregation, or the average crowd visible just about anywhere, and he sees love growing cold (I don't say there aren't any bright spots at all). Contraceptive congregations are not that source of visible support, that much-needed big fat " yes " to self-sacrificing love the priest desperately needs to see in the congregation, that is if he is to be strengthened in his own exceedingly demanding vocation to love. Love is needed to reform a diocese, correct wayward laymen professionals, etc. But today's bishops would do well to seek out their Catholic doctors in their own dioceses and start calling them in in a spirit of fatherly love and support, seek to befriend them, but also refuse to shrink from the needed pastoral task of calling them too to holiness and reminding them of the thief in the night, which in their case means " cease and desist " from all that is unholy in their work and now, not tomorrow! This way, not only can their souls be saved but also all those being led into scandal, i.e., into sin by the doctor's recommendations, counsel, and interventions. If they refuse they refuse, but at least that way they had a chance. It's just one man's opinion, but my gosh what do they have to lose, considering that right now they're losing almost the entire Church in the West! Sincerely yours,Dominic M. Pedulla MD, FACC, CNFPMC, ABVM, ACPhInterventional Cardiologist, Endovascular Diplomate, Varicose Vein Specialist, Noncontraceptive Family Planning Consultant, Family Planning ResearcherMedical Director, The Oklahoma Vein and Endovascular Center (www.noveinok.com,veininfo@...)Executive Director, The Edith Stein Foundation (www.theedithsteinfoundation.com) (office) (cell) (FAX)pedullad@... “Our fundamental purpose is not to go out and help the poor. For us, this has only been a means. Our purpose is to maintain the Catholic faith within us, and to allow its diffusion to others through the instrument of charity.” Blessed Frederic Ozanam, a 19th century founder of the Society of Saint De Re: Re: Situations that bishops CAN influence Dominic, Your last sentence reads, " Should we approach our bishops on this, and tell them we need their help? " Who is " we " ? The members of this List? NFP teachers in general? Priests? Since 1977 I have periodically advocated that the NFP " movement " in the States and Canada needs an umbrella organization for those who teach chaste natural family planning. No FAM + whatever during the fertile time. Yes, it would be great if individual bishops and the bishops as a body would do something about the situation you address. But what can they do about the situation of clinicians? Wouldn't it be wonderful if they would do something positive about those situations that they can influence right in their respective dioceses and parishes? In 1989 a US bishops' committee urged that every engaged couple be required to attend a full course on NFP. Twenty-two years later, six dioceses have that requirement with a seventh trying to get there. The more recent bishops' documents on NFP and marriage failed to mention that requirement. To repeat, an association that represented all the fully Catholic NFP organizations might have a better chance of having some influence. Kippley Re: Re: Situations Catholics face, On limiting evil vs. cooperation with evil Again, such great points, Fr. ! Before becoming a nurse practitioner, I worked as an RN for 5 years in one of our local Catholic hospitals, St. 's, where contraceptives aren't prescribed and sterilizations aren't performed. That's one of the primary reasons I chose to work there b/c I knew I wouldn't have to take part in anything contrary to my faith which was a nice freedom. I plan on talking w/ my collaborating physician next week to discuss having our front desk staff alert patients that I don't prescribe contracepives at the time of scheduling and/or when they come in (we also see walk-ins, too). As you put it, I think this is the best way to " resist the emotionally strain " of the situation. Thank you so much! , I have read your question again, and think there is no need to repeat what and Fr. Tom have said so well. I will add however a few examples that suggest that Catholics can work " in very difficult circumstances " if they can resist the emotional strain and are not being used. -NFP physicians hospitalize patients in hospitals where contraceptives are prescribed. Should they stop hospitalizing their patients in these hospitals because this involves some monetary support for them? I only know of one hospital where contraceptives are not prescribed, the Hospital of the Univ. of Navarre, my alma mater. I imagine there are a few more. -Priests in a parish hear confessions side by side to other priests who teach things contrary to the faith, for ex. regarding sexuality. Do associate pastors positively need to leave any assignment where this is happening? -Are Catholics who work in large corporations or the stock exchange and witness immoral practices always obliged to leave even if they are not formally cooperating in evil actions? -We pay taxes to a government that pays for abortions; should we stop paying taxes? I think the general answer to all these questions is " no. " Naturally each situation needs to be studied with the necessary details and a person should distance himself as much as possible from wrong doing. Having said this, I think you should try to distance yourself more from the prescription of contraceptives, for example, by giving the patient a card explaining what you do without referring them to your colleague. But you are doing a lot of good in your work, and I commend you for this, Fr. Dominic,I appreciate your delicate conscience in the matter when so many are callous. I believe, you, Fr. and I do agree in principle, however. Question is in the translation without splitting hairs. It may all come down to 'sstatement as you said, " we decided " . My presumption is that wanted 'no part' in providing contraceptives to patients, directly or indirectly. Unfortunately, I am not familiar with the health practice protocols and doctors' office routines as described them. This world forces us into many moral choices. I think, however, it may be possible to work in a doctor's office stipulating to those in charge one's moral limits and hopefully they agree and honor one's conscience. would need to 'decide' if she is being used for immoral purposes. By way of analogy I recall a personal moral quandary I faced when ( way back when ) I was in the Army Reserves during the Viet Nam War which I considered immoral. I had decided that if I was " called up " in the conflict I would refuse and be court-marshaled and perhaps imprisoned. I was not called up. That was not the Army I joined, and while a Reservist I did my duty. Blessings,Fr. Tom Dominic,You make it sound like it is so easy. Unfortunately, it is not. For instance, in Florida, where is practicing, it is required to submit a written protocol to the State Board, and this protocol has to be approved, in writing by a physician the NP, CNM, or CRNA has made arrangements with for " back-up " , is employed by, " supervised " etc.So in essence, we/they have to have " approval " for what we are doing and how we are doing it. The exact wording, from http://www.doh.state.fl.us/mqa/nursing/nur_statutes.html:An advanced registered nurse practitioner shall perform those functions authorized in this section within the framework of an established protocol that is filed with the board upon biennial license renewal and within 30 days after entering into a supervisory relationship with a physician or changes to the protocol. The board shall review the protocol to ensure compliance with applicable regulatory standards for protocols. The board shall refer to the department licensees submitting protocols that are not compliant with the regulatory standards for protocols. A practitioner currently licensed under chapter 458, chapter 459, or chapter 466 shall maintain supervision for directing the specific course of medical treatment. Within the established framework, an advanced registered nurse practitioner may:.... So you can see the dilema for those of us who are not physicians. I MOVED my whole family to OMAHA, and took a temporary job there precisely so I could attend the combined program Creighton Model training. Having that training in no way made it easier to have a private practice- at least not one that would be substantial enough to pay for my mortgage and my groceries, let alone clothing and misc for my children.I have not even had enough NFP clients to become certified as a practitioner in the 7 years since I completed that program. And since there have been very few physicians who know and practice only NFP, let alone the Creighton Model, it has been very difficult to find any job or position of employment that is supporting of that. The best we - as NP's/CNM's (and probably PA's) can get is tolerance, and even that is hard to come by. To get it in *writing* that they (physicians) approve of our protocols is even harder. Add to that the difficulty in getting the physicians to agree to " let us " RX the medications that are needed, (ie bio-identical progesterone, HCG tx, low dose clomid, etc).- and we have another battle... That said, every state has different rules, and some states do allow for independent practice, such as Iowa, Arizona, New Mexico, Colorado and perhaps a few others I can't recall offhand. I am not trying to be negative, but you need to understand that as hard as it is for a physician to be NFP only, it can be that much harder for a non-physician provider to be NFP only. Your last 2 statements are very true, however, that is where the cross comes in. I think that has done all that she can in her situation, and do not agree that telling the patient what to expect next is " helping " or being complicit in any way. Nor is is she being complicit in agreeing to letting the physicians see the patients behind her. She really has no choice in this situation, other than to leave the practice, unless one of the other suggestions we have made will be agreeable. I think the fact that the physicians she is working with are at least being tolerant of her NFP only practice, is admirable on their part. They obviously do not have the background or understanding for our theological, ideological or biological objections to the practice of contraception. Sounds like is working on that end of it though! Sandrock, RNC-OB, APRN, CNM, MSN Now to go beyond being negative! After going to Creighton and becoming both NFP medical consultant and practitioner, she will see the way forward out of this because she will see that she does not need to be in this association to have a practice. (I did the same thing before establishing my " contraceptology " clinic) Nor does she need to be used so that the FP-MD can waltz in and write the corrupt prescription after has done all the hard work, only to be severely demoralized by the end result and by being undermined consistently. This last thing and the moral problem is the likely reason she feels the way she does and who can blame her. To me it is morally, emotionally, and professionally defeating and an untenable situation and no Catholic provider ought to feel she has to remain in it. -- Fr. R. Vélez765 14th Ave, Apt 1San Francisco, CA 94118Website: www.newmanbiography.com

[Guest guest]

But Father Tom one more thing. When we say "who ought to approach the bishops and make known our need", it is precisely in recognition of that pastoral munus, it is an expression of confidence in it. We are acknowledging it is the high priest and chief catechize that must get involved.However while indispensable, in the current climate I don't believe it's enough. The Church in America is circling the drain and unless those closest to the front lines clearly and robustly communicate the most pressing needs to their generals the latter remain deluded that all is OK or at least stable. Meanwhile the "vultures" as Our Lord put it, are gathering.Sent from my iPhone

and Dominic,, in answer to the question, " "Should we approach our bishops on this, and tell them we need their help?" Who is "we"? The members of this List? NFP teachers in general? Priests?"-- I refer you to the Apostle, , "But how can they call on him [Christ] in whom they have not believed? And how can they believe in him of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone to preach? And how can people preach unless they are sent? "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring the good news " ( Romans 10:14-15 ). The vast majority of Catholics know too little of their faith including Natural Family Planning. Those principally ordained to "preach" and "bring the good news" are our priests especially at Mass delivering homilies. Here "catholic" doctrine is authentic. At other 'venues', unfortunately, the ring of authenticity may be deniable as "that's your opinion". Many Catholics as many others are opinionated, but the spoken words at Mass or other sacramental celebrations are effective which I know from personal experience. Unfortunately, complaining parishioners may be more vocal and influential than others in the parish. Loyal Catholics by virtue of their faith should support and counter those who complain and resist the Word. More parish priests would then be encouraged to preach the truth. Here is where all of us can assist.

Fr. Tom

I just got on Holy Spirit's website (burg, Pennsylvania). I have to commend and admire them!!! (http://www.hsh.org/women-s-services-2/) Very bold and aggressive approach to marketing the women's services without the least hint of being defensive, or giving the slightest impression of not being able to deliver the "full range of women's services". This seems extremely promising and I am interested in knowing more about them.

This is undoubtedly the future. Not that it is easy -- not by a longshot! But we are either proud of what we have and who we are as Catholic practitioners, or we are something else (God forbid that that something else is to be ashamed!)

Sincerely yours,

Dominic M. Pedulla MD, FACC, CNFPMC, ABVM, ACPh

Interventional Cardiologist, Endovascular Diplomate, Varicose Vein Specialist, Noncontraceptive Family Planning Consultant, Family Planning Researcher

Medical Director, The Oklahoma Vein and Endovascular Center (www.noveinok.com, veininfo@...)

Executive Director, The Edith Stein Foundation (www.theedithsteinfoundation.com)

(office)

(cell)

(FAX)

pedullad@...

“Our fundamental purpose is not to go out and help the poor. For us, this has only been a means. Our purpose is to maintain the Catholic faith within us, and to allow its diffusion to others through the instrument of charity.†Blessed Frederic Ozanam, a 19th century founder of the Society of Saint De

Re: Re: Situations that bishops CAN influence

Dominic,

Your last sentence reads, "Should we approach our bishops on this, and tell them we need their help?"

Who is "we"? The members of this List? NFP teachers in general? Priests?

Since 1977 I have periodically advocated that the NFP "movement" in the States and Canada needs an umbrella organization for those who teach chaste natural family planning. No FAM + whatever during the fertile time.

Yes, it would be great if individual bishops and the bishops as a body would do something about the situation you address. But what can they do about the situation of clinicians? Wouldn't it be wonderful if they would do something positive about those situations that they can influence right in their respective dioceses and parishes?

In 1989 a US bishops' committee urged that every engaged couple be required to attend a full course on NFP. Twenty-two years later, six dioceses have that requirement with a seventh trying to get there. The more recent bishops' documents on NFP and marriage failed to mention that requirement.

To repeat, an association that represented all the fully Catholic NFP organizations might have a better chance of having some influence.

Kippley

Re: Re: Situations Catholics face, On limiting evil vs. cooperation with evil

Again, such great points, Fr. ! Before becoming a nurse practitioner, I worked as an RN for 5 years in one of our local Catholic hospitals, St. 's, where contraceptives aren't prescribed and sterilizations aren't performed. That's one of the primary reasons I chose to work there b/c I knew I wouldn't have to take part in anything contrary to my faith which was a nice freedom.

I plan on talking w/ my collaborating physician next week to discuss having our front desk staff alert patients that I don't prescribe contracepives at the time of scheduling and/or when they come in (we also see walk-ins, too). As you put it, I think this is the best way to "resist the emotionally strain" of the situation.

Thank you so much!

,

I have read your question again, and think there is no need to repeat what and Fr. Tom have said so well. I will add however a few examples that suggest that Catholics can work "in very difficult circumstances" if they can resist the emotional strain and are not being used.

-NFP physicians hospitalize patients in hospitals where contraceptives are prescribed. Should they stop hospitalizing their patients in these hospitals because this involves some monetary support for them? I only know of one hospital where contraceptives are not prescribed, the Hospital of the Univ. of Navarre, my alma mater. I imagine there are a few more.

-Priests in a parish hear confessions side by side to other priests who teach things contrary to the faith, for ex. regarding sexuality. Do associate pastors positively need to leave any assignment where this is happening?

-Are Catholics who work in large corporations or the stock exchange and witness immoral practices always obliged to leave even if they are not formally cooperating in evil actions?

-We pay taxes to a government that pays for abortions; should we stop paying taxes?

I think the general answer to all these questions is "no." Naturally each situation needs to be studied with the necessary details and a person should distance himself as much as possible from wrong doing.

Having said this, I think you should try to distance yourself more from the prescription of contraceptives, for example, by giving the patient a card explaining what you do without referring them to your colleague. But you are doing a lot of good in your work, and I commend you for this,

Fr.

Dominic,

I appreciate your delicate conscience in the matter when so many are callous. I believe, you, Fr. and I do agree in principle, however. Question is in the translation without splitting hairs. It may all come down to 's

statement as you said, "we decided". My presumption is that wanted 'no part' in providing contraceptives to patients, directly or indirectly. Unfortunately, I am not familiar with the health practice protocols and doctors' office routines as described them. This world forces us into many moral choices. I think, however, it may be possible to work in a doctor's office stipulating to those in charge one's moral limits and hopefully they agree and honor one's conscience. would need to 'decide' if she is being used for immoral purposes. By way of analogy I recall a personal moral quandary I faced when ( way back when ) I was in the Army Reserves during the Viet Nam War which I considered immoral. I had decided that if I was "called up" in the conflict I would refuse and be court-marshaled and perhaps imprisoned. I was not called up. That was not the Army I joined, and while a Reservist I did my duty. Blessings,

Fr. Tom

Dominic,

You make it sound like it is so easy. Unfortunately, it is not. For instance, in Florida, where is practicing, it is required to submit a written protocol to the State Board, and this protocol has to be approved, in writing by a physician the NP, CNM, or CRNA has made arrangements with for "back-up", is employed by, "supervised" etc.So in essence, we/they have to have "approval" for what we are doing and how we are doing it.

The exact wording, from http://www.doh.state.fl.us/mqa/nursing/nur_statutes.html:

An advanced registered nurse practitioner shall perform those functions authorized in this section within the framework of an established protocol that is filed with the board upon biennial license renewal and within 30 days after entering into a supervisory relationship with a physician or changes to the protocol. The board shall review the protocol to ensure compliance with applicable regulatory standards for protocols. The board shall refer to the department licensees submitting protocols that are not compliant with the regulatory standards for protocols. A practitioner currently licensed under chapter 458, chapter 459, or chapter 466 shall maintain supervision for directing the specific course of medical treatment. Within the established framework, an advanced registered nurse practitioner may:....

So you can see the dilema for those of us who are not physicians. I MOVED my whole family to OMAHA, and took a temporary job there precisely so I could attend the combined program Creighton Model training. Having that training in no way made it easier to have a private practice- at least not one that would be substantial enough to pay for my mortgage and my groceries, let alone clothing and misc for my children. I have not even had enough NFP clients to become certified as a practitioner in the 7 years since I completed that program. And since there have been very few physicians who know and practice only NFP, let alone the Creighton Model, it has been very difficult to find any job or position of employment that is supporting of that. The best we - as NP's/CNM's (and probably PA's) can get is tolerance, and even that is hard to come by. To get it in *writing* that they (physicians) approve of our protocols is even harder. Add to that the difficulty in getting the physicians to agree to "let us" RX the medications that are needed, (ie bio-identical progesterone, HCG tx, low dose clomid, etc).- and we have another battle...

That said, every state has different rules, and some states do allow for independent practice, such as Iowa, Arizona, New Mexico, Colorado and perhaps a few others I can't recall offhand.

I am not trying to be negative, but you need to understand that as hard as it is for a physician to be NFP only, it can be that much harder for a non-physician provider to be NFP only.

Your last 2 statements are very true, however, that is where the cross comes in. I think that has done all that she can in her situation, and do not agree that telling the patient what to expect next is "helping" or being complicit in any way. Nor is is she being complicit in agreeing to letting the physicians see the patients behind her. She really has no choice in this situation, other than to leave the practice, unless one of the other suggestions we have made will be agreeable. I think the fact that the physicians she is working with are at least being tolerant of her NFP only practice, is admirable on their part. They obviously do not have the background or understanding for our theological, ideological or biological objections to the practice of contraception. Sounds like is working on that end of it though!

Sandrock, RNC-OB, APRN, CNM, MSN

Now to go beyond being negative! After going to Creighton and becoming both NFP medical consultant and practitioner, she will see the way forward out of this because she will see that she does not need to be in this association to have a practice. (I did the same thing before establishing my "contraceptology" clinic) Nor does she need to be used so that the FP-MD can waltz in and write the corrupt prescription after has done all the hard work, only to be severely demoralized by the end result and by being undermined consistently. This last thing and the moral problem is the likely reason she feels the way she does and who can blame her. To me it is morally, emotionally, and professionally defeating and an untenable situation and no Catholic provider ought to feel she has to remain in it.

--

Fr. R. Vélez

765 14th Ave, Apt 1

San Francisco, CA 94118

Website: www.newmanbiography.com

[Guest guest]

Dominic,Have you spoken with your bishop? I imagine you have, but maybe you can do so again. When you do offer him some help. Go with another doctor, a nurse and a pharmacist. Offer to give some talks to various groups and to provide them with some ongoing medical advice when needed.

If the bishop has not shown interest consider speaking with someone well connected with the bishop, someone who has his ear.In the end, however, as Fr. Tom suggests the apostolate is one on one, and each priest needs to preach the truth. From good priests we have good and holy priests. We now have three in Northern California, one in Santa , one in Oakland, an a new auxiliary in San . Veni Sancte Spiritus!

Fr.

 

But Father Tom one more thing. When we say " who ought to approach the bishops and make known our need " , it is precisely in recognition of that pastoral munus, it is an expression of confidence in it. We are acknowledging it is the high priest and chief catechize that must get involved.

However while indispensable, in the current climate I don't believe it's enough. The Church in America is circling the drain and unless those closest to the front lines clearly and robustly communicate the most pressing needs to their generals the latter remain deluded that all is OK or at least stable. Meanwhile the " vultures " as Our Lord put it, are gathering.

Sent from my iPhone

 

and Dominic,, in answer to the question, "   " Should we approach our bishops on this, and tell them we need their help? "     Who is " we " ?  The members of this List?  NFP teachers in general?  Priests? " -- I refer you to the Apostle, ,  " But how can they call on him [Christ] in whom they have not believed?  And how can they believe in him of whom they have not heard?  And how can they hear without someone to preach? And how can people preach unless they are sent? " How beautiful are the feet of those who bring the good news " ( Romans 10:14-15 ). The vast majority of Catholics know too little of their faith including Natural Family Planning. Those principally ordained to " preach " and " bring the good news " are our priests especially at Mass delivering homilies. Here " catholic " doctrine is authentic.  At other 'venues', unfortunately, the ring of authenticity may be deniable as " that's your opinion " . Many Catholics as many others are opinionated, but the spoken words at Mass or other sacramental celebrations are effective which I know from personal experience. Unfortunately, complaining parishioners may be more vocal and influential than others in the parish. Loyal Catholics by virtue of their faith should support and counter those who complain and resist the Word.  More parish priests would then be encouraged to preach the truth.  Here is where all of us can assist.

Fr. Tom

 

I just got on Holy Spirit's website (burg, Pennsylvania). I have to commend and admire them!!! (http://www.hsh.org/women-s-services-2/) Very bold and aggressive approach to marketing the women's services without the least hint of being defensive, or giving the slightest impression of not being able to deliver the " full range of women's services " . This seems extremely promising and I am interested in knowing more about them. 

This is undoubtedly the future. Not that it is easy -- not by a longshot! But we are either proud of what we have and who we are as Catholic practitioners, or we are something else (God forbid that that something else is to be ashamed!)

Sincerely yours,

Dominic M. Pedulla MD, FACC, CNFPMC, ABVM, ACPh

Interventional Cardiologist, Endovascular Diplomate, Varicose Vein Specialist, Noncontraceptive Family Planning Consultant, Family Planning Researcher

Medical Director, The Oklahoma Vein and Endovascular Center (www.noveinok.com, veininfo@...)

Executive Director, The Edith Stein Foundation (www.theedithsteinfoundation.com)

(office)

(cell)

(FAX)

pedullad@...

“Our fundamental purpose is not to go out and help the poor. For us, this has only been a means. Our purpose is to maintain the Catholic faith within us, and to allow its diffusion to others through the instrument of charity.” Blessed Frederic Ozanam, a 19th century founder of the Society of Saint De

Re: Re: Situations that bishops CAN influence

 

Dominic,

    Your last sentence reads, " Should we approach our bishops on this, and tell them we need their help? "

    Who is " we " ?  The members of this List?  NFP teachers in general?  Priests?

    Since 1977 I have periodically advocated that the NFP " movement " in the States and Canada needs an umbrella organization for those who teach chaste natural family planning.  No FAM + whatever during the fertile time.  

      Yes, it would be great if individual bishops and the bishops as a body would do something about the situation you address.  But what can they do about the situation of clinicians?  Wouldn't it be wonderful if they would do something positive about those situations that they can influence right in their respective dioceses and parishes? 

    In 1989 a US bishops' committee urged that every engaged couple be required to attend a full course on NFP.   Twenty-two years later, six dioceses have that requirement with a seventh trying to get there.  The more recent bishops' documents on NFP and marriage failed to mention that requirement.  

    To repeat, an association that represented all the fully Catholic NFP organizations might have a better chance of having some influence.

 

Kippley 

 

 

Re: Re: Situations Catholics face, On limiting evil vs. cooperation with evil

 

Again, such great points, Fr. !  Before becoming a nurse practitioner, I worked as an RN for 5 years in one of our local Catholic hospitals, St. 's, where contraceptives aren't prescribed and sterilizations aren't performed.  That's one of the primary reasons I chose to work there b/c I knew I wouldn't have to take part in anything contrary to my faith which was a nice freedom.

 

I plan on talking w/ my collaborating physician next week to discuss having our front desk staff alert patients that I don't prescribe contracepives at the time of scheduling and/or when they come in (we also see walk-ins, too).  As you put it, I think this is the best way to " resist the emotionally strain " of the situation. 

 

Thank you so much!

 

, 

I have read your question again, and think there is no need to repeat what and Fr. Tom have said so well. I will add however a few examples that suggest that Catholics can work " in very difficult circumstances " if they can resist the emotional strain and are not being used.

-NFP physicians hospitalize patients in hospitals where contraceptives are prescribed. Should they stop hospitalizing their patients in these hospitals because this involves some monetary support for them? I only know of one hospital where contraceptives are not prescribed, the Hospital of the Univ. of Navarre, my alma mater. I imagine there are a few more.

-Priests in a parish hear confessions side by side to other priests who teach things contrary to the faith, for ex. regarding sexuality. Do associate pastors positively need to leave any assignment where this is happening?

-Are Catholics who work in large corporations or the stock exchange and witness immoral practices always obliged to leave even if they are not formally cooperating in evil actions?

-We pay taxes to a government that pays for abortions; should we stop paying taxes?

I think the general answer to all these questions is " no. " Naturally each situation needs to be studied with the necessary details and a person should distance himself as much as possible from wrong doing. 

Having said this, I think you should try to distance yourself more from the prescription of contraceptives, for example, by giving the patient a card explaining what you do without referring them to your colleague. But you are doing a lot of good in your work, and I commend you for this,

Fr.

 

Dominic,

I appreciate your delicate conscience in the matter when so many are callous.  I believe, you, Fr. and I do agree in principle, however.  Question is in the translation without splitting hairs.  It may all come down to 's

statement as you said, " we decided " .  My presumption is that wanted 'no part' in providing contraceptives to patients, directly or indirectly. Unfortunately, I am not familiar with the health practice protocols and doctors' office routines as described them. This world forces us into many moral choices.  I think, however, it may be possible to work in a doctor's office stipulating to those in charge one's moral limits and hopefully they agree and honor one's conscience.  would need to 'decide' if she is being used for immoral purposes.  By way of analogy I recall a personal moral quandary I faced when ( way back when ) I was in the Army Reserves during the Viet Nam War which I considered immoral.  I had decided that if I was " called up " in the conflict I would refuse and be court-marshaled and perhaps imprisoned.  I was not called up. That was not the Army I joined, and while a Reservist I did my duty.  Blessings,

Fr. Tom

 

Dominic,

You make it sound like it is so easy. Unfortunately, it is not. For instance, in Florida, where is practicing, it is required to submit a written protocol to the State Board, and this protocol has to be approved, in writing by a physician the NP, CNM, or CRNA has made arrangements with for " back-up " , is employed by, " supervised " etc.So in essence, we/they have to have " approval " for what we are doing and how we are doing it.

The exact wording, from http://www.doh.state.fl.us/mqa/nursing/nur_statutes.html:

An advanced registered nurse practitioner shall perform those functions authorized in this section within the framework of an established protocol that is filed with the board upon biennial license renewal and within 30 days after entering into a supervisory relationship with a physician or changes to the protocol. The board shall review the protocol to ensure compliance with applicable regulatory standards for protocols. The board shall refer to the department licensees submitting protocols that are not compliant with the regulatory standards for protocols. A practitioner currently licensed under chapter 458, chapter 459, or chapter 466 shall maintain supervision for directing the specific course of medical treatment. Within the established framework, an advanced registered nurse practitioner may:....

So you can see the dilema for those of us who are not physicians. I MOVED my whole family to OMAHA, and took a temporary job there precisely so I could attend the combined program Creighton Model training. Having that training in no way made it easier to have a private practice- at least not one that would be substantial enough to pay for my mortgage and my groceries, let alone clothing and misc for my children. I have not even had enough NFP clients to become certified as a practitioner in the 7 years since I completed that program. And since there have been very few physicians who know and practice only NFP, let alone the Creighton Model, it has been very difficult to find any job or position of employment that is supporting of that. The best we - as NP's/CNM's (and probably PA's) can get is tolerance, and even that is hard to come by.  To get it in *writing* that they (physicians) approve of our protocols is even harder.  Add to that the difficulty in getting the physicians to agree to " let us " RX the medications that are needed, (ie bio-identical progesterone, HCG tx, low dose clomid, etc).- and we have another battle...

That said, every state has different rules, and some states do allow for independent practice, such as Iowa, Arizona, New Mexico, Colorado and perhaps a few others I can't recall offhand. 

I am not trying to be negative, but you need to understand that as hard as it is for a physician to be NFP only, it can be that much harder for a non-physician provider to be NFP only. 

 

Your last 2 statements are very true, however, that is where the cross comes in. I think that has done all that she can in her situation, and do not agree that telling the patient what to expect next is " helping " or being complicit in any way. Nor is is she being complicit in agreeing to letting the physicians see the patients behind her. She really has no choice in this situation, other than to leave the practice, unless one of the other suggestions we have made will be agreeable. I think the fact that the physicians she is working with are at least being tolerant of her NFP only practice, is admirable on their part. They obviously do not have the background or understanding for our theological,  ideological or biological objections to the practice of contraception. Sounds like is working on that end of it though!

Sandrock, RNC-OB, APRN, CNM, MSN

Now to go beyond being negative! After going to Creighton and becoming both NFP medical consultant and practitioner, she will see the way forward out of this because she will see that she does not need to be in this association to have a practice. (I did the same thing before establishing my " contraceptology " clinic) Nor does she need to be used so that the FP-MD can waltz in and write the corrupt prescription after has done all the hard work, only to be severely demoralized by the end result and by being undermined consistently. This last thing and the moral problem is the likely reason she feels the way she does and who can blame her. To me it is morally, emotionally, and professionally defeating and an untenable situation and no Catholic provider ought to feel she has to remain in it.

--

Fr. R. Vélez

765 14th Ave, Apt 1

San Francisco, CA 94118

Website: www.newmanbiography.com

-- Fr. R. Vélez765 14th Ave, Apt 1San Francisco, CA 94118Website: www.newmanbiography.com

[Guest guest]

Excellent suggestions Father ! Here we just installed a new Archbishop and to be perfectly honest, no I haven't yet gone. It may be that I lack courage but I haven't yet perceived the moment to do it. A few years back though, we did approach (myself and a leading local priest here involved in NFP) a local Catholic Ob/Gyn here and he almost got to the point of embracing the teaching then inexplicably backed away again. Maybe it's time for another try this time first seeing the archbishop. What do you (or anyone else) think?

Sincerely yours,

Dominic M. Pedulla MD, FACC, CNFPMC, ABVM, ACPh

Interventional Cardiologist, Endovascular Diplomate, Varicose Vein Specialist, Noncontraceptive Family Planning Consultant, Family Planning Researcher

Medical Director, The Oklahoma Vein and Endovascular Center (www.noveinok.com, veininfo@...)

Executive Director, The Edith Stein Foundation (www.theedithsteinfoundation.com)

(office)

(cell)

(FAX)

pedullad@...

“Our fundamental purpose is not to go out and help the poor. For us, this has only been a means. Our purpose is to maintain the Catholic faith within us, and to allow its diffusion to others through the instrument of charity.†Blessed Frederic Ozanam, a 19th century founder of the Society of Saint De

Re: Re: Situations that bishops CAN influence

Dominic,

Your last sentence reads, "Should we approach our bishops on this, and tell them we need their help?"

Who is "we"? The members of this List? NFP teachers in general? Priests?

Since 1977 I have periodically advocated that the NFP "movement" in the States and Canada needs an umbrella organization for those who teach chaste natural family planning. No FAM + whatever during the fertile time.

Yes, it would be great if individual bishops and the bishops as a body would do something about the situation you address. But what can they do about the situation of clinicians? Wouldn't it be wonderful if they would do something positive about those situations that they can influence right in their respective dioceses and parishes?

In 1989 a US bishops' committee urged that every engaged couple be required to attend a full course on NFP. Twenty-two years later, six dioceses have that requirement with a seventh trying to get there. The more recent bishops' documents on NFP and marriage failed to mention that requirement.

To repeat, an association that represented all the fully Catholic NFP organizations might have a better chance of having some influence.

Kippley

Re: Re: Situations Catholics face, On limiting evil vs. cooperation with evil

Again, such great points, Fr. ! Before becoming a nurse practitioner, I worked as an RN for 5 years in one of our local Catholic hospitals, St. 's, where contraceptives aren't prescribed and sterilizations aren't performed. That's one of the primary reasons I chose to work there b/c I knew I wouldn't have to take part in anything contrary to my faith which was a nice freedom.

I plan on talking w/ my collaborating physician next week to discuss having our front desk staff alert patients that I don't prescribe contracepives at the time of scheduling and/or when they come in (we also see walk-ins, too). As you put it, I think this is the best way to "resist the emotionally strain" of the situation.

Thank you so much!

,

I have read your question again, and think there is no need to repeat what and Fr. Tom have said so well. I will add however a few examples that suggest that Catholics can work "in very difficult circumstances" if they can resist the emotional strain and are not being used.

-NFP physicians hospitalize patients in hospitals where contraceptives are prescribed. Should they stop hospitalizing their patients in these hospitals because this involves some monetary support for them? I only know of one hospital where contraceptives are not prescribed, the Hospital of the Univ. of Navarre, my alma mater. I imagine there are a few more.

-Priests in a parish hear confessions side by side to other priests who teach things contrary to the faith, for ex. regarding sexuality. Do associate pastors positively need to leave any assignment where this is happening?

-Are Catholics who work in large corporations or the stock exchange and witness immoral practices always obliged to leave even if they are not formally cooperating in evil actions?

-We pay taxes to a government that pays for abortions; should we stop paying taxes?

I think the general answer to all these questions is "no." Naturally each situation needs to be studied with the necessary details and a person should distance himself as much as possible from wrong doing.

Having said this, I think you should try to distance yourself more from the prescription of contraceptives, for example, by giving the patient a card explaining what you do without referring them to your colleague. But you are doing a lot of good in your work, and I commend you for this,

Fr.

Dominic,

I appreciate your delicate conscience in the matter when so many are callous. I believe, you, Fr. and I do agree in principle, however. Question is in the translation without splitting hairs. It may all come down to 's

statement as you said, "we decided". My presumption is that wanted 'no part' in providing contraceptives to patients, directly or indirectly. Unfortunately, I am not familiar with the health practice protocols and doctors' office routines as described them. This world forces us into many moral choices. I think, however, it may be possible to work in a doctor's office stipulating to those in charge one's moral limits and hopefully they agree and honor one's conscience. would need to 'decide' if she is being used for immoral purposes. By way of analogy I recall a personal moral quandary I faced when ( way back when ) I was in the Army Reserves during the Viet Nam War which I considered immoral. I had decided that if I was "called up" in the conflict I would refuse and be court-marshaled and perhaps imprisoned. I was not called up. That was not the Army I joined, and while a Reservist I did my duty. Blessings,

Fr. Tom

Dominic,

You make it sound like it is so easy. Unfortunately, it is not. For instance, in Florida, where is practicing, it is required to submit a written protocol to the State Board, and this protocol has to be approved, in writing by a physician the NP, CNM, or CRNA has made arrangements with for "back-up", is employed by, "supervised" etc.So in essence, we/they have to have "approval" for what we are doing and how we are doing it.

The exact wording, from http://www.doh.state.fl.us/mqa/nursing/nur_statutes.html:

An advanced registered nurse practitioner shall perform those functions authorized in this section within the framework of an established protocol that is filed with the board upon biennial license renewal and within 30 days after entering into a supervisory relationship with a physician or changes to the protocol. The board shall review the protocol to ensure compliance with applicable regulatory standards for protocols. The board shall refer to the department licensees submitting protocols that are not compliant with the regulatory standards for protocols. A practitioner currently licensed under chapter 458, chapter 459, or chapter 466 shall maintain supervision for directing the specific course of medical treatment. Within the established framework, an advanced registered nurse practitioner may:....

So you can see the dilema for those of us who are not physicians. I MOVED my whole family to OMAHA, and took a temporary job there precisely so I could attend the combined program Creighton Model training. Having that training in no way made it easier to have a private practice- at least not one that would be substantial enough to pay for my mortgage and my groceries, let alone clothing and misc for my children. I have not even had enough NFP clients to become certified as a practitioner in the 7 years since I completed that program. And since there have been very few physicians who know and practice only NFP, let alone the Creighton Model, it has been very difficult to find any job or position of employment that is supporting of that. The best we - as NP's/CNM's (and probably PA's) can get is tolerance, and even that is hard to come by. To get it in *writing* that they (physicians) approve of our protocols is even harder. Add to that the difficulty in getting the physicians to agree to "let us" RX the medications that are needed, (ie bio-identical progesterone, HCG tx, low dose clomid, etc).- and we have another battle...

That said, every state has different rules, and some states do allow for independent practice, such as Iowa, Arizona, New Mexico, Colorado and perhaps a few others I can't recall offhand.

I am not trying to be negative, but you need to understand that as hard as it is for a physician to be NFP only, it can be that much harder for a non-physician provider to be NFP only.

Your last 2 statements are very true, however, that is where the cross comes in. I think that has done all that she can in her situation, and do not agree that telling the patient what to expect next is "helping" or being complicit in any way. Nor is is she being complicit in agreeing to letting the physicians see the patients behind her. She really has no choice in this situation, other than to leave the practice, unless one of the other suggestions we have made will be agreeable. I think the fact that the physicians she is working with are at least being tolerant of her NFP only practice, is admirable on their part. They obviously do not have the background or understanding for our theological, ideological or biological objections to the practice of contraception. Sounds like is working on that end of it though!

Sandrock, RNC-OB, APRN, CNM, MSN

Now to go beyond being negative! After going to Creighton and becoming both NFP medical consultant and practitioner, she will see the way forward out of this because she will see that she does not need to be in this association to have a practice. (I did the same thing before establishing my "contraceptology" clinic) Nor does she need to be used so that the FP-MD can waltz in and write the corrupt prescription after has done all the hard work, only to be severely demoralized by the end result and by being undermined consistently. This last thing and the moral problem is the likely reason she feels the way she does and who can blame her. To me it is morally, emotionally, and professionally defeating and an untenable situation and no Catholic provider ought to feel she has to remain in it.

--

Fr. R. Vélez

765 14th Ave, Apt 1

San Francisco, CA 94118

Website: www.newmanbiography.com

--

Fr. R. Vélez

765 14th Ave, Apt 1

San Francisco, CA 94118

Website: www.newmanbiography.com

[Guest guest]

I strongly encourage NFP promoters to talk with their Bishop and the family life director for the diocese. Everyone wants a strong marriage and a healthy, happy family, but most people do not know how to promote these. We need to keep the attention focused on the present status of marriage and family life, and all the major factors that are contributing to the problem.

We can suggest concrete steps that can be taken in a diocese, and in every parish, to address the problems of divorce, cohabitation and broken families. Contraception is a big part of the problem.

I think that there are three groups of Catholic leaders that need to be addressed with a Catholic anthropology and the rationale behind the Church’s teaching on contraception. The first group of Catholic leaders is the priests and deacons. They need encouragement to clearly proclaim God’s plan for marriage, spousal love and family. Some of them need to know where their resources are. NFP Outreach provides clergy conferences precisely on these themes.

The second group is marriage prep leaders. If they are not living God’s plan for marriage and spousal love, then it is impossible for them to pass these values on to engaged couples. We need to provide seminars to help them understand a Catholic anthropology and the rationale behind the Church’s teaching on contraception. This should lead to their acceptance of NFP, and making it part of their life style.

The third group is Catholic doctors, especially the Ob/Gyns and Family Practice doctors. Only 1 % of our Catholic Ob/Gyns promote NFP. The other 99% contribute to the problem. We desperately need to bring that 1% up to 5%. I don’t think that we will go very far until we have more of our own MDs working with us, instead of against us. Catholic doctors of a diocese need to hear, from NFP trained Ob/Gyns, the many advantages of NFP, and the many disadvantages of contraception and sterilization. They need to be confronted with the Church’s rationale for denouncing contraception and encouraging NFP. Since most doctors never got this in medical school, we must help them to discover these matters.

All of these are talking points with your Bishop. Before we can become effective in the public square, we first need to get our own house in order. A Bishop feels a pastoral concern for each of these groups of Catholic leaders. He knows he must win them over to God’s plan for marriage and spousal love. But most bishops don’t know where to begin, or where their resources are to help with this great effort. Those of us who have been working with these issues for some time know what can be done, and what the good strategies are. If your bishop actively seeks our help, then real possibilities can begin in a diocese.

I strongly urge nfp professionals to meet with their bishops and discuss what can be done to promote NFP in all the parishes of that diocese.

Fr. Habiger OSB

NFP Outreach

Excellent suggestions Father ! Here we just installed a new Archbishop and to be perfectly honest, no I haven't yet gone. It may be that I lack courage but I haven't yet perceived the moment to do it. A few years back though, we did approach (myself and a leading local priest here involved in NFP) a local Catholic Ob/Gyn here and he almost got to the point of embracing the teaching then inexplicably backed away again. Maybe it's time for another try this time first seeing the archbishop. What do you (or anyone else) think?

Sincerely yours,

Dominic M. Pedulla MD, FACC, CNFPMC, ABVM, ACPh

Interventional Cardiologist, Endovascular Diplomate, Varicose Vein Specialist, Noncontraceptive Family Planning Consultant, Family Planning Researcher

Medical Director, The Oklahoma Vein and Endovascular Center (www.noveinok.com, veininfo@...)

Executive Director, The Edith Stein Foundation (www.theedithsteinfoundation.com)

(office)

(cell)

(FAX)

pedullad@...

“Our fundamental purpose is not to go out and help the poor. For us, this has only been a means. Our purpose is to maintain the Catholic faith within us, and to allow its diffusion to others through the instrument of charity.” Blessed Frederic Ozanam, a 19th century founder of the Society of Saint De

Re: Re: Situations that bishops CAN influence

Dominic,

Your last sentence reads, " Should we approach our bishops on this, and tell them we need their help? "

Who is " we " ? The members of this List? NFP teachers in general? Priests?

Since 1977 I have periodically advocated that the NFP " movement " in the States and Canada needs an umbrella organization for those who teach chaste natural family planning. No FAM + whatever during the fertile time.

Yes, it would be great if individual bishops and the bishops as a body would do something about the situation you address. But what can they do about the situation of clinicians? Wouldn't it be wonderful if they would do something positive about those situations that they can influence right in their respective dioceses and parishes?

In 1989 a US bishops' committee urged that every engaged couple be required to attend a full course on NFP. Twenty-two years later, six dioceses have that requirement with a seventh trying to get there. The more recent bishops' documents on NFP and marriage failed to mention that requirement.

To repeat, an association that represented all the fully Catholic NFP organizations might have a better chance of having some influence.

Kippley

Re: Re: Situations Catholics face, On limiting evil vs. cooperation with evil

Again, such great points, Fr. ! Before becoming a nurse practitioner, I worked as an RN for 5 years in one of our local Catholic hospitals, St. 's, where contraceptives aren't prescribed and sterilizations aren't performed. That's one of the primary reasons I chose to work there b/c I knew I wouldn't have to take part in anything contrary to my faith which was a nice freedom.

I plan on talking w/ my collaborating physician next week to discuss having our front desk staff alert patients that I don't prescribe contracepives at the time of scheduling and/or when they come in (we also see walk-ins, too). As you put it, I think this is the best way to " resist the emotionally strain " of the situation.

Thank you so much!

On Sun, Jul 24, 2011 at 2:12 AM, R. Velez jrvg98@...> wrote:

,

I have read your question again, and think there is no need to repeat what and Fr. Tom have said so well. I will add however a few examples that suggest that Catholics can work " in very difficult circumstances " if they can resist the emotional strain and are not being used.

-NFP physicians hospitalize patients in hospitals where contraceptives are prescribed. Should they stop hospitalizing their patients in these hospitals because this involves some monetary support for them? I only know of one hospital where contraceptives are not prescribed, the Hospital of the Univ. of Navarre, my alma mater. I imagine there are a few more.

-Priests in a parish hear confessions side by side to other priests who teach things contrary to the faith, for ex. regarding sexuality. Do associate pastors positively need to leave any assignment where this is happening?

-Are Catholics who work in large corporations or the stock exchange and witness immoral practices always obliged to leave even if they are not formally cooperating in evil actions?

-We pay taxes to a government that pays for abortions; should we stop paying taxes?

I think the general answer to all these questions is " no. " Naturally each situation needs to be studied with the necessary details and a person should distance himself as much as possible from wrong doing.

Having said this, I think you should try to distance yourself more from the prescription of contraceptives, for example, by giving the patient a card explaining what you do without referring them to your colleague. But you are doing a lot of good in your work, and I commend you for this,

Fr.

On Sat, Jul 23, 2011 at 3:31 PM, Tom Bartolomeo tom.bartolomeo@...> wrote:

Dominic,

I appreciate your delicate conscience in the matter when so many are callous. I believe, you, Fr. and I do agree in principle, however. Question is in the translation without splitting hairs. It may all come down to 's

statement as you said, " we decided " . My presumption is that wanted 'no part' in providing contraceptives to patients, directly or indirectly. Unfortunately, I am not familiar with the health practice protocols and doctors' office routines as described them. This world forces us into many moral choices. I think, however, it may be possible to work in a doctor's office stipulating to those in charge one's moral limits and hopefully they agree and honor one's conscience. would need to 'decide' if she is being used for immoral purposes. By way of analogy I recall a personal moral quandary I faced when ( way back when ) I was in the Army Reserves during the Viet Nam War which I considered immoral. I had decided that if I was " called up " in the conflict I would refuse and be court-marshaled and perhaps imprisoned. I was not called up. That was not the Army I joined, and while a Reservist I did my duty. Blessings,

Fr. Tom

On Sat, Jul 23, 2011 at 7:06 AM, Sandrock cnmnancy@...> wrote:

Dominic,

You make it sound like it is so easy. Unfortunately, it is not. For instance, in Florida, where is practicing, it is required to submit a written protocol to the State Board, and this protocol has to be approved, in writing by a physician the NP, CNM, or CRNA has made arrangements with for " back-up " , is employed by, " supervised " etc.So in essence, we/they have to have " approval " for what we are doing and how we are doing it

[Guest guest]

So then what could be envisioned might go like this: a group (not just one person but perhaps doctor with NFP instructor(s) and maybe trusted priest too) approaches the bishop of a diocese and expresses its heartfelt desire and interest in reaching out to the local Catholic doctors who both attend Sunday Mass (at least start there) and also are known not to be well-versed or in line with the Catholic teaching on fertility regulation in their practices, be they OB/GYNS or FPs, MDs, DOs, and even advanced care nurses.

An organization such as NFP Outreach might to be involved once the bishop agrees this is something that ought to be pursued, or they might even be involved earlier if the situation is assumed in advance to be hopeful. Then, the pastoral plan for this pursuit begins. The bishop is encouraged to reach out to such folks and initiate the dialogue and maybe as part of this invite him/her for further reflection.

Someone charismatic who treats women and reproductive issues is invited to come in to give a series of talks in a kind of retreat, and perhaps the priest gives one of the talks, but the goal is the conversion of the provider.

What do you think Father Matt?

Sincerely yours,

Dominic M. Pedulla MD, FACC, CNFPMC, ABVM, ACPh

Interventional Cardiologist, Endovascular Diplomate, Varicose Vein Specialist, Noncontraceptive Family Planning Consultant, Family Planning Researcher

Medical Director, The Oklahoma Vein and Endovascular Center (www.noveinok.com, veininfo@...)

Executive Director, The Edith Stein Foundation (www.theedithsteinfoundation.com)

(office)

(cell)

(FAX)

pedullad@...

“Our fundamental purpose is not to go out and help the poor. For us, this has only been a means. Our purpose is to maintain the Catholic faith within us, and to allow its diffusion to others through the instrument of charity.†Blessed Frederic Ozanam, a 19th century founder of the Society of Saint De

Re: Re: Situations that bishops CAN influence

Dominic,

Your last sentence reads, "Should we approach our bishops on this, and tell them we need their help?"

Who is "we"? The members of this List? NFP teachers in general? Priests?

Since 1977 I have periodically advocated that the NFP "movement" in the States and Canada needs an umbrella organization for those who teach chaste natural family planning. No FAM + whatever during the fertile time.

Yes, it would be great if individual bishops and the bishops as a body would do something about the situation you address. But what can they do about the situation of clinicians? Wouldn't it be wonderful if they would do something positive about those situations that they can influence right in their respective dioceses and parishes?

In 1989 a US bishops' committee urged that every engaged couple be required to attend a full course on NFP. Twenty-two years later, six dioceses have that requirement with a seventh trying to get there. The more recent bishops' documents on NFP and marriage failed to mention that requirement.

To repeat, an association that represented all the fully Catholic NFP organizations might have a better chance of having some influence.

Kippley

Re: Re: Situations Catholics face, On limiting evil vs. cooperation with evil

Again, such great points, Fr. ! Before becoming a nurse practitioner, I worked as an RN for 5 years in one of our local Catholic hospitals, St. 's, where contraceptives aren't prescribed and sterilizations aren't performed. That's one of the primary reasons I chose to work there b/c I knew I wouldn't have to take part in anything contrary to my faith which was a nice freedom.

I plan on talking w/ my collaborating physician next week to discuss having our front desk staff alert patients that I don't prescribe contracepives at the time of scheduling and/or when they come in (we also see walk-ins, too). As you put it, I think this is the best way to "resist the emotionally strain" of the situation.

Thank you so much!

On Sun, Jul 24, 2011 at 2:12 AM, R. Velez jrvg98@...> wrote:

,

I have read your question again, and think there is no need to repeat what and Fr. Tom have said so well. I will add however a few examples that suggest that Catholics can work "in very difficult circumstances" if they can resist the emotional strain and are not being used.

-NFP physicians hospitalize patients in hospitals where contraceptives are prescribed. Should they stop hospitalizing their patients in these hospitals because this involves some monetary support for them? I only know of one hospital where contraceptives are not prescribed, the Hospital of the Univ. of Navarre, my alma mater. I imagine there are a few more.

-Priests in a parish hear confessions side by side to other priests who teach things contrary to the faith, for ex. regarding sexuality. Do associate pastors positively need to leave any assignment where this is happening?

-Are Catholics who work in large corporations or the stock exchange and witness immoral practices always obliged to leave even if they are not formally cooperating in evil actions?

-We pay taxes to a government that pays for abortions; should we stop paying taxes?

I think the general answer to all these questions is "no." Naturally each situation needs to be studied with the necessary details and a person should distance himself as much as possible from wrong doing.

Having said this, I think you should try to distance yourself more from the prescription of contraceptives, for example, by giving the patient a card explaining what you do without referring them to your colleague. But you are doing a lot of good in your work, and I commend you for this,

Fr.

On Sat, Jul 23, 2011 at 3:31 PM, Tom Bartolomeo tom.bartolomeo@...> wrote:

Dominic,

I appreciate your delicate conscience in the matter when so many are callous. I believe, you, Fr. and I do agree in principle, however. Question is in the translation without splitting hairs. It may all come down to 's

statement as you said, "we decided". My presumption is that wanted 'no part' in providing contraceptives to patients, directly or indirectly. Unfortunately, I am not familiar with the health practice protocols and doctors' office routines as described them. This world forces us into many moral choices. I think, however, it may be possible to work in a doctor's office stipulating to those in charge one's moral limits and hopefully they agree and honor one's conscience. would need to 'decide' if she is being used for immoral purposes. By way of analogy I recall a personal moral quandary I faced when ( way back when ) I was in the Army Reserves during the Viet Nam War which I considered immoral. I had decided that if I was "called up" in the conflict I would refuse and be court-marshaled and perhaps imprisoned. I was not called up. Th

at was not the Army I joined, and while a Reservist I did my duty. Blessings,

Fr. Tom

On Sat, Jul 23, 2011 at 7:06 AM, Sandrock cnmnancy@...> wrote:

Dominic,

You make it sound like it is so easy. Unfortunately, it is not. For instance, in Florida, where is practicing, it is required to submit a written protocol to the State Board, and this protocol has to be approved, in writing by a physician the NP, CNM, or CRNA has made arrangements with for "back-up", is employed by, "supervised" etc.So in essence, we/they have to have "approval" for what we are doing and how we are doing it.

The exact wording, from <http://www.doh.state.fl.us/mqa/nursing/nur_statutes.html> <http://www.doh.state.fl.us/mqa/nursing/nur_statutes.html> http://www.doh.state.fl.us/mqa/nursing/nur_statutes.html:

An advanced registered nurse practitioner shall perform those functions authorized in this section within the framework of an established protocol that is filed with the board upon biennial license renewal and within 30 days after entering into a supervisory relationship with a physician or changes to the protocol. The board shall review the protocol to ensure compliance with applicable regulatory standards for protocols. The board shall refer to the department licensees submitting protocols that are not compliant with the regulatory standards for protocols. A practitioner currently licensed under chapter 458, chapter 459, or chapter 466 shall maintain supervision for directing the specific course of medical treatment. Within the established framework, an advanced registered nurse practitioner ma

y:....

So you can see the dilema for those of us who are not physicians. I MOVED my whole family to OMAHA, and took a temporary job there precisely so I could attend the combined program Creighton Model training. Having that training in no way made it easier to have a private practice- at least not one that would be substantial enough to pay for my mortgage and my groceries, let alone clothing and misc for my children. I have not even had enough NFP clients to become certified as a practitioner in the 7 years since I completed that program. And since there have been very few physicians who know and practice only NFP, let alone the Creighton Model, it has been very difficult to find any job or position of employme

nt that is supporting of that. The best we - as NP's/CNM's (and probably PA's) can get is tolerance, and even that is hard to come by. To get it in *writing* that they (physicians) approve of our protocols is even harder. Add to that the difficulty in getting the physicians to agree to "let us" RX the medications that are needed, (ie bio-identical progesterone, HCG tx, low dose clomid, etc).- and we have another battle...

That said, every state has different rules, and some states do allow for independent practice, such as Iowa, Arizona, New Mexico, Colorado and perhaps a few others I can't recall offhand.

I am not trying to be negative, but you need to understand that as hard as it is for a physician to be NFP only, it can be that much harder for a non-physician provider to be NFP only.

Your last 2 statements are very true, however, that is where the cross comes in. I think that has done all that she can in her situation, and do not agree that telling the patient what to expect next is "helping" or being complicit in any way. Nor is is she being complicit in agreeing to letting the physicians see the patients behind her. She really has no choice in this situation, other than to leave the practice, unless one of the other suggestions we have made will be agreeable. I think the fact that the physicians she is working with are at least being tolerant of her NFP only practice, is admirable on their part. They obviously do not have the background or understanding for our theological, ideological or biological objections to the practice of contraception. Sounds like is working on th

at end of it though!

Sandrock, RNC-OB, APRN, CNM, MSN

Now to go beyond being negative! After going to Creighton and becoming both NFP medical consultant and practitioner, she will see the way forward out of this because she will see that she does not need to be in this association to have a practice. (I did the same thing before establishing my "contraceptology" clinic) Nor does she need to be used so that the FP-MD can waltz in and write the corrupt prescription after has done all the hard work, only to be severely demoralized by the end result and by being undermined consistently. This last thing and the moral problem is the likely reason she feels the way she does and who can blame her. To me it is morally, emotionally, and professionally defeating and an untenable situation and no Catholic provider ought to feel she has to remain in it.

[Guest guest]

I agree, Dr. Dom. Each diocese has to reach out to its Catholic leaders (here we are stressing the medical personnel) and help them make the conversion to accepting God’s plan for marriage and spousal love. This can be done. Your suggestions are very doable. God’s plan for marriage and spousal love is very reasonable, and can be presented as a combination of the faith and reason. We should not be afraid that there will be arguments that cannot be answered and corrected. This is a very challenging task, but all the resources are available, if a Bishop decides to take advantage of them.

I don’t think that we shall make much progress in promoting NFP if only 1% of our Ob/Gyns are with us, and 99% are working against us.

Fr. Habiger OSB

So then what could be envisioned might go like this: a group (not just one person but perhaps doctor with NFP instructor(s) and maybe trusted priest too) approaches the bishop of a diocese and expresses its heartfelt desire and interest in reaching out to the local Catholic doctors who both attend Sunday Mass (at least start there) and also are known not to be well-versed or in line with the Catholic teaching on fertility regulation in their practices, be they OB/GYNS or FPs, MDs, DOs, and even advanced care nurses.

An organization such as NFP Outreach might to be involved once the bishop agrees this is something that ought to be pursued, or they might even be involved earlier if the situation is assumed in advance to be hopeful. Then, the pastoral plan for this pursuit begins. The bishop is encouraged to reach out to such folks and initiate the dialogue and maybe as part of this invite him/her for further reflection.

Someone charismatic who treats women and reproductive issues is invited to come in to give a series of talks in a kind of retreat, and perhaps the priest gives one of the talks, but the goal is the conversion of the provider.

What do you think Father Matt?

Sincerely yours,

Dominic M. Pedulla MD, FACC, CNFPMC, ABVM, ACPh

Interventional Cardiologist, Endovascular Diplomate, Varicose Vein Specialist, Noncontraceptive Family Planning Consultant, Family Planning Researcher

Medical Director, The Oklahoma Vein and Endovascular Center (www.noveinok.com, veininfo@...)

Executive Director, The Edith Stein Foundation (www.theedithsteinfoundation.com)

(office)

(cell)

(FAX)

pedullad@...

“Our fundamental purpose is not to go out and help the poor. For us, this has only been a means. Our purpose is to maintain the Catholic faith within us, and to allow its diffusion to others through the instrument of charity.” Blessed Frederic Ozanam, a 19th century founder of the Society of Saint De

Re: Re: Situations that bishops CAN influence

Dominic,

Your last sentence reads, " Should we approach our bishops on this, and tell them we need their help? "

Who is " we " ? The members of this List? NFP teachers in general? Priests?

Since 1977 I have periodically advocated that the NFP " movement " in the States and Canada needs an umbrella organization for those who teach chaste natural family planning. No FAM + whatever during the fertile time.

Yes, it would be great if individual bishops and the bishops as a body would do something about the situation you address. But what can they do about the situation of clinicians? Wouldn't it be wonderful if they would do something positive about those situations that they can influence right in their respective dioceses and parishes?

In 1989 a US bishops' committee urged that every engaged couple be required to attend a full course on NFP. Twenty-two years later, six dioceses have that requirement with a seventh trying to get there. The more recent bishops' documents on NFP and marriage failed to mention that requirement.

To repeat, an association that represented all the fully Catholic NFP organizations might have a better chance of having some influence.

Kippley

Re: Re: Situations Catholics face, On limiting evil vs. cooperation with evil

Again, such great points, Fr. ! Before becoming a nurse practitioner, I worked as an RN for 5 years in one of our local Catholic hospitals, St. 's, where contraceptives aren't prescribed and sterilizations aren't performed. That's one of the primary reasons I chose to work there b/c I knew I wouldn't have to take part in anything contrary to my faith which was a nice freedom.

I plan on talking w/ my collaborating physician next week to discuss having our front desk staff alert patients that I don't prescribe contracepives at the time of scheduling and/or when they come in (we also see walk-ins, too). As you put it, I think this is the best way to " resist the emotionally strain " of the situation.

Thank you so much!

On Sun, Jul 24, 2011 at 2:12 AM, R. Velez jrvg98@...> wrote:

,

I have read your question again, and think there is no need to repeat what and Fr. Tom have said so well. I will add however a few examples that suggest that Catholics can work " in very difficult circumstances " if they can resist the emotional strain and are not being used.

-NFP physicians hospitalize patients in hospitals where contraceptives are prescribed. Should they stop hospitalizing their patients in these hospitals because this involves some monetary support for them? I only know of one hospital where contraceptives are not prescribed, the Hospital of the Univ. of Navarre, my alma mater. I imagine there are a few more.

-Priests in a parish hear confessions side by side to other priests who teach things contrary to the faith, for ex. regarding sexuality. Do associate pastors positively need to leave any assignment where this is happening?

-Are Catholics who work in large corporations or the stock exchange and witness immoral practices always obliged to leave even if they are not formally cooperating in evil actions?

-We pay taxes to a government that pays for abortions; should we stop paying taxes?

I think the general answer to all these questions is " no. " Naturally each situation needs to be studied with the necessary details and a person should distance himself as much as possible from wrong doing.

Having said this, I think you should try to distance yourself more from the prescription of contraceptives, for example, by giving the patient a card explaining what you do without referring them to your colleague. But you are doing a lot of good in your work, and I commend you for this,

Fr.

On Sat, Jul 23, 2011 at 3:31 PM, Tom Bartolomeo tom.bartolomeo@...> wrote:

Dominic,

I appreciate your delicate conscience in the matter when so many are callous. I believe, you, Fr. and I do agree in principle, however. Question is in the translation without splitting hairs. It may all come down to 's

statement as you said, " we decided " . My presumption is that wanted 'no part' in providing contraceptives to patients, directly or indirectly. Unfortunately, I am not familiar with the health practice protocols and doctors' office routines as described them. This world forces us into many moral choices. I think, however, it may be possible to work in a doctor's office stipulating to those in charge one's moral limits and hopefully they agree and honor one's conscience. would need to 'decide' if she is being used for immoral purposes. By way of analogy I recall a personal moral quandary I faced when ( way back when ) I was in the Army Reserves during the Viet Nam War which I considered immoral. I had decided that if I was " called up " in the conflict I would refuse and be court-marshaled and perhaps imprisoned. I was not called up. Th at was not the Army I joined, and while a Reservist I did my duty. Blessings,

Fr. Tom

On Sat, Jul 23, 2011 at 7:06 AM, Sandrock cnmnancy@...> wrote:

Dominic,

You make it sound like it is so easy. Unfortunately, it is not. For instance, in Florida, where is practicing, it is required to submit a written protocol to the State Board, and this protocol has to be approved, in writing by a physician the NP, CNM, or CRNA has made arrangements with for " back-up " , is employed by, " supervised " etc.So in essence, we/they have to have " approval " for what we are doing and how we are doing it

[Guest guest]

The 1% figure below reminded Sheila and me of the situation when we came to Cincinnati in 1972. At that time and for some years thereafter, we learned of only one NFP-only Ob-Gyn in the area. Unfortunately, that particular doc was known to deliver babies on his schedule, not the baby's, so Catholic moms who wanted something approaching a natural childbirth avoided him.

I remember an informative conversation with one of these Catholic ob-gyns. He had been practicing according to Catholic norms. Then the women started telling him that Father So-and-so had told her that she could go on the Pill. He would then call up the priest and ask him who had given him a license to practice medicine. Then he gave up and became well known as a Pill dispenser.

Despite this situation, in those early years we had large classes. Sheila and I taught well-attended NFP courses one night a week in four different parishes, so we taught over 200 couples that first year. That's because in the Seventies there still many couples around who had formed their consciences according to the Magisterium. However, by 1981, it was 13 years after Humanae Vitae, and we started to deal with young people who had never heard authentic Catholic teaching from any source. If they had heard about Humanae Vitae, it was the message of dissent. There's more of this in my memoirs.

The dissent movement was led by the Catholic clergy, and in my opinion they are going to have to play a very prominent role in rebuilding faith in the Magisterium and in its teaching dealing with love, marriage and sexuality. I think it is going to take a combination of very tactful use of the pulpit and one-on-one meetings. There is really a lot that a parish priest can do that nobody else can do.

F. Kippley

www.battle-scarred.info

Re: Re: Situations that bishops CAN influence

I don’t think that we shall make much progress in promoting NFP if only 1% of our Ob/Gyns are with us, and 99% are working against us.Fr. Habiger OSB

[Guest guest]

Dominic,Again, I agree.  All avenues should be used.  Ultimately, the opinion of the faithful, in my opinion, carries the greatest weight.  Yes,meet with your bishop and ask him to support his pro-life pro-active priests.  Acknowledged or not a diocese can get caught up in a defensive posture, lawsuits, falling parishioners support, finances etc.  

 

But Father Tom one more thing. When we say " who ought to approach the bishops and make known our need " , it is precisely in recognition of that pastoral munus, it is an expression of confidence in it. We are acknowledging it is the high priest and chief catechize that must get involved.

However while indispensable, in the current climate I don't believe it's enough. The Church in America is circling the drain and unless those closest to the front lines clearly and robustly communicate the most pressing needs to their generals the latter remain deluded that all is OK or at least stable. Meanwhile the " vultures " as Our Lord put it, are gathering.

Sent from my iPhone

 

and Dominic,, in answer to the question, "   " Should we approach our bishops on this, and tell them we need their help? "     Who is " we " ?  The members of this List?  NFP teachers in general?  Priests? " -- I refer you to the Apostle, ,  " But how can they call on him [Christ] in whom they have not believed?  And how can they believe in him of whom they have not heard?  And how can they hear without someone to preach? And how can people preach unless they are sent? " How beautiful are the feet of those who bring the good news " ( Romans 10:14-15 ). The vast majority of Catholics know too little of their faith including Natural Family Planning. Those principally ordained to " preach " and " bring the good news " are our priests especially at Mass delivering homilies. Here " catholic " doctrine is authentic.  At other 'venues', unfortunately, the ring of authenticity may be deniable as " that's your opinion " . Many Catholics as many others are opinionated, but the spoken words at Mass or other sacramental celebrations are effective which I know from personal experience. Unfortunately, complaining parishioners may be more vocal and influential than others in the parish. Loyal Catholics by virtue of their faith should support and counter those who complain and resist the Word.  More parish priests would then be encouraged to preach the truth.  Here is where all of us can assist.

Fr. Tom

 

I just got on Holy Spirit's website (burg, Pennsylvania). I have to commend and admire them!!! (http://www.hsh.org/women-s-services-2/) Very bold and aggressive approach to marketing the women's services without the least hint of being defensive, or giving the slightest impression of not being able to deliver the " full range of women's services " . This seems extremely promising and I am interested in knowing more about them. 

This is undoubtedly the future. Not that it is easy -- not by a longshot! But we are either proud of what we have and who we are as Catholic practitioners, or we are something else (God forbid that that something else is to be ashamed!)

Sincerely yours,

Dominic M. Pedulla MD, FACC, CNFPMC, ABVM, ACPh

Interventional Cardiologist, Endovascular Diplomate, Varicose Vein Specialist, Noncontraceptive Family Planning Consultant, Family Planning Researcher

Medical Director, The Oklahoma Vein and Endovascular Center (www.noveinok.com, veininfo@...)

Executive Director, The Edith Stein Foundation (www.theedithsteinfoundation.com)

(office)

(cell)

(FAX)

pedullad@...

“Our fundamental purpose is not to go out and help the poor. For us, this has only been a means. Our purpose is to maintain the Catholic faith within us, and to allow its diffusion to others through the instrument of charity.” Blessed Frederic Ozanam, a 19th century founder of the Society of Saint De

Re: Re: Situations that bishops CAN influence

 

Dominic,

    Your last sentence reads, " Should we approach our bishops on this, and tell them we need their help? "

    Who is " we " ?  The members of this List?  NFP teachers in general?  Priests?

    Since 1977 I have periodically advocated that the NFP " movement " in the States and Canada needs an umbrella organization for those who teach chaste natural family planning.  No FAM + whatever during the fertile time.  

      Yes, it would be great if individual bishops and the bishops as a body would do something about the situation you address.  But what can they do about the situation of clinicians?  Wouldn't it be wonderful if they would do something positive about those situations that they can influence right in their respective dioceses and parishes? 

    In 1989 a US bishops' committee urged that every engaged couple be required to attend a full course on NFP.   Twenty-two years later, six dioceses have that requirement with a seventh trying to get there.  The more recent bishops' documents on NFP and marriage failed to mention that requirement.  

    To repeat, an association that represented all the fully Catholic NFP organizations might have a better chance of having some influence.

 

Kippley 

 

 

Re: Re: Situations Catholics face, On limiting evil vs. cooperation with evil

 

Again, such great points, Fr. !  Before becoming a nurse practitioner, I worked as an RN for 5 years in one of our local Catholic hospitals, St. 's, where contraceptives aren't prescribed and sterilizations aren't performed.  That's one of the primary reasons I chose to work there b/c I knew I wouldn't have to take part in anything contrary to my faith which was a nice freedom.

 

I plan on talking w/ my collaborating physician next week to discuss having our front desk staff alert patients that I don't prescribe contracepives at the time of scheduling and/or when they come in (we also see walk-ins, too).  As you put it, I think this is the best way to " resist the emotionally strain " of the situation. 

 

Thank you so much!

 

, 

I have read your question again, and think there is no need to repeat what and Fr. Tom have said so well. I will add however a few examples that suggest that Catholics can work " in very difficult circumstances " if they can resist the emotional strain and are not being used.

-NFP physicians hospitalize patients in hospitals where contraceptives are prescribed. Should they stop hospitalizing their patients in these hospitals because this involves some monetary support for them? I only know of one hospital where contraceptives are not prescribed, the Hospital of the Univ. of Navarre, my alma mater. I imagine there are a few more.

-Priests in a parish hear confessions side by side to other priests who teach things contrary to the faith, for ex. regarding sexuality. Do associate pastors positively need to leave any assignment where this is happening?

-Are Catholics who work in large corporations or the stock exchange and witness immoral practices always obliged to leave even if they are not formally cooperating in evil actions?

-We pay taxes to a government that pays for abortions; should we stop paying taxes?

I think the general answer to all these questions is " no. " Naturally each situation needs to be studied with the necessary details and a person should distance himself as much as possible from wrong doing. 

Having said this, I think you should try to distance yourself more from the prescription of contraceptives, for example, by giving the patient a card explaining what you do without referring them to your colleague. But you are doing a lot of good in your work, and I commend you for this,

Fr.

 

Dominic,

I appreciate your delicate conscience in the matter when so many are callous.  I believe, you, Fr. and I do agree in principle, however.  Question is in the translation without splitting hairs.  It may all come down to 's

statement as you said, " we decided " .  My presumption is that wanted 'no part' in providing contraceptives to patients, directly or indirectly. Unfortunately, I am not familiar with the health practice protocols and doctors' office routines as described them. This world forces us into many moral choices.  I think, however, it may be possible to work in a doctor's office stipulating to those in charge one's moral limits and hopefully they agree and honor one's conscience.  would need to 'decide' if she is being used for immoral purposes.  By way of analogy I recall a personal moral quandary I faced when ( way back when ) I was in the Army Reserves during the Viet Nam War which I considered immoral.  I had decided that if I was " called up " in the conflict I would refuse and be court-marshaled and perhaps imprisoned.  I was not called up. That was not the Army I joined, and while a Reservist I did my duty.  Blessings,

Fr. Tom

 

Dominic,

You make it sound like it is so easy. Unfortunately, it is not. For instance, in Florida, where is practicing, it is required to submit a written protocol to the State Board, and this protocol has to be approved, in writing by a physician the NP, CNM, or CRNA has made arrangements with for " back-up " , is employed by, " supervised " etc.So in essence, we/they have to have " approval " for what we are doing and how we are doing it.

The exact wording, from http://www.doh.state.fl.us/mqa/nursing/nur_statutes.html:

An advanced registered nurse practitioner shall perform those functions authorized in this section within the framework of an established protocol that is filed with the board upon biennial license renewal and within 30 days after entering into a supervisory relationship with a physician or changes to the protocol. The board shall review the protocol to ensure compliance with applicable regulatory standards for protocols. The board shall refer to the department licensees submitting protocols that are not compliant with the regulatory standards for protocols. A practitioner currently licensed under chapter 458, chapter 459, or chapter 466 shall maintain supervision for directing the specific course of medical treatment. Within the established framework, an advanced registered nurse practitioner may:....

So you can see the dilema for those of us who are not physicians. I MOVED my whole family to OMAHA, and took a temporary job there precisely so I could attend the combined program Creighton Model training. Having that training in no way made it easier to have a private practice- at least not one that would be substantial enough to pay for my mortgage and my groceries, let alone clothing and misc for my children. I have not even had enough NFP clients to become certified as a practitioner in the 7 years since I completed that program. And since there have been very few physicians who know and practice only NFP, let alone the Creighton Model, it has been very difficult to find any job or position of employment that is supporting of that. The best we - as NP's/CNM's (and probably PA's) can get is tolerance, and even that is hard to come by.  To get it in *writing* that they (physicians) approve of our protocols is even harder.  Add to that the difficulty in getting the physicians to agree to " let us " RX the medications that are needed, (ie bio-identical progesterone, HCG tx, low dose clomid, etc).- and we have another battle...

That said, every state has different rules, and some states do allow for independent practice, such as Iowa, Arizona, New Mexico, Colorado and perhaps a few others I can't recall offhand. 

I am not trying to be negative, but you need to understand that as hard as it is for a physician to be NFP only, it can be that much harder for a non-physician provider to be NFP only. 

 

Your last 2 statements are very true, however, that is where the cross comes in. I think that has done all that she can in her situation, and do not agree that telling the patient what to expect next is " helping " or being complicit in any way. Nor is is she being complicit in agreeing to letting the physicians see the patients behind her. She really has no choice in this situation, other than to leave the practice, unless one of the other suggestions we have made will be agreeable. I think the fact that the physicians she is working with are at least being tolerant of her NFP only practice, is admirable on their part. They obviously do not have the background or understanding for our theological,  ideological or biological objections to the practice of contraception. Sounds like is working on that end of it though!

Sandrock, RNC-OB, APRN, CNM, MSN

Now to go beyond being negative! After going to Creighton and becoming both NFP medical consultant and practitioner, she will see the way forward out of this because she will see that she does not need to be in this association to have a practice. (I did the same thing before establishing my " contraceptology " clinic) Nor does she need to be used so that the FP-MD can waltz in and write the corrupt prescription after has done all the hard work, only to be severely demoralized by the end result and by being undermined consistently. This last thing and the moral problem is the likely reason she feels the way she does and who can blame her. To me it is morally, emotionally, and professionally defeating and an untenable situation and no Catholic provider ought to feel she has to remain in it.

--

Fr. R. Vélez

765 14th Ave, Apt 1

San Francisco, CA 94118

Website: www.newmanbiography.com

[Guest guest]

Mr Kippley,

You make great points.

My greatest opponents in the NFP-only practice world have been Catholics. One

short homily on abortion by a shy priest years ago (the only time I'd ever heard

it addressed in church) changed me immediately from an " I wouldn't personally,

but can't tell others what is right " Dr to fully pro-life. One short homily.

And I was an occasional Catholic then.

In our current unique parish, teens and young adults and the rest of us hear

about the harms (and sin) of contraception regularly. No teen or adult here is

ignorant. There are certainly some contracepting parishioners, but they are not

ignorant. Before moving here, I never heard it addressed anywhere in church.

As a cradle Catholic, grad of Catholic High School, College, and Med School, I

couldn't even have told you what the Church taught on these issues. Never

encountered them anywhere. It was a brave, high school educated, NFP instructor

who asked me the first eye opening questions. Why had I gone all these years

and never heard it addressed? I understand priestly fears. They are real. And

so is the real power of transformation from the pulpit.

, MD

Front Royal, Va

________________________________

From: nfpprofessionals on behalf of Kippley

Sent: Thu 7/28/2011 7:27 PM

To: nfpprofessionals

Subject: Re: Re: Situations that bishops CAN influence

The 1% figure below reminded Sheila and me of the situation when we came to

Cincinnati in 1972. At that time and for some years thereafter, we learned of

only one NFP-only Ob-Gyn in the area. Unfortunately, that particular doc was

known to deliver babies on his schedule, not the baby's, so Catholic moms who

wanted something approaching a natural childbirth avoided him.

I remember an informative conversation with one of these Catholic ob-gyns.

He had been practicing according to Catholic norms. Then the women started

telling him that Father So-and-so had told her that she could go on the Pill.

He would then call up the priest and ask him who had given him a license to

practice medicine. Then he gave up and became well known as a Pill dispenser.

Despite this situation, in those early years we had large classes. Sheila

and I taught well-attended NFP courses one night a week in four different

parishes, so we taught over 200 couples that first year. That's because in the

Seventies there still many couples around who had formed their consciences

according to the Magisterium. However, by 1981, it was 13 years after Humanae

Vitae, and we started to deal with young people who had never heard authentic

Catholic teaching from any source. If they had heard about Humanae Vitae, it

was the message of dissent. There's more of this in my memoirs.

The dissent movement was led by the Catholic clergy, and in my opinion they

are going to have to play a very prominent role in rebuilding faith in the

Magisterium and in its teaching dealing with love, marriage and sexuality. I

think it is going to take a combination of very tactful use of the pulpit and

one-on-one meetings. There is really a lot that a parish priest can do that

nobody else can do.

F. Kippley

www.battle-scarred.info <http://www.battle-scarred.info/>

Re: Re: Situations that bishops CAN influence

I don't think that we shall make much progress in promoting NFP if only 1% of

our Ob/Gyns are with us, and 99% are working against us.

Fr. Habiger OSB

[Guest guest]

The Gospel for this Sunday deals with the five loaves and two fish (Mt 14: 13-21). Jesus asked the apostles to feel a crowd of thousands, and they thought it was a mission impossible. Jesus took the few resources they could provide, and then he performed his miracle. I think that it is the same today. We work with what resources are available, e.g., receptive clergy, faith-filled laity, doctors, nurses, and collaborate with them as effectively as possible. Then the Lord will take over and perform his miracle. In the meanwhile, let’s keep building up the resources and pray for the miracle.

Fr. Habiger OSB

NFP Outreach

The 1% figure below reminded Sheila and me of the situation when we came to Cincinnati in 1972. At that time and for some years thereafter, we learned of only one NFP-only Ob-Gyn in the area. Unfortunately, that particular doc was known to deliver babies on his schedule, not the baby's, so Catholic moms who wanted something approaching a natural childbirth avoided him.

I remember an informative conversation with one of these Catholic ob-gyns. He had been practicing according to Catholic norms. Then the women started telling him that Father So-and-so had told her that she could go on the Pill. He would then call up the priest and ask him who had given him a license to practice medicine. Then he gave up and became well known as a Pill dispenser.

Despite this situation, in those early years we had large classes. Sheila and I taught well-attended NFP courses one night a week in four different parishes, so we taught over 200 couples that first year. That's because in the Seventies there still many couples around who had formed their consciences according to the Magisterium. However, by 1981, it was 13 years after Humanae Vitae, and we started to deal with young people who had never heard authentic Catholic teaching from any source. If they had heard about Humanae Vitae, it was the message of dissent. There's more of this in my memoirs.

The dissent movement was led by the Catholic clergy, and in my opinion they are going to have to play a very prominent role in rebuilding faith in the Magisterium and in its teaching dealing with love, marriage and sexuality. I think it is going to take a combination of very tactful use of the pulpit and one-on-one meetings. There is really a lot that a parish priest can do that nobody else can do.

F. Kippley

www.battle-scarred.info <http://www.battle-scarred.info>

Re: Re: Situations that bishops CAN influence

I don’t think that we shall make much progress in promoting NFP if only 1% of our Ob/Gyns are with us, and 99% are working against us.

Fr. Habiger OSB

[Guest guest]

One More Soul has a CD by Dr Hardey--he's an excellent presenter--titled:AN ObGyn Talks Straight to Priests About Sex and Marriage

Author: Hardey MD, Kim

CODE: CAOB Two others that are relevant to the current discussion are: God's Instruction Book On Love and Sex

Author: Hardey MD, Kim

CODE: CGIBWhy NFP is a Priority in My Parish

Author: Moreau, Fr Randall

CODE: CWNPCD talks Sampler--16 CDs--suggested donation $30 (less than $2/ea)

CODE: SCDSWe also highly recommend Steve Patton's "Why Contraception Matters" and Patty Schneier's "'Prove It God!' and He Did".Order and listen to these resources so you will be armed to discuss the issues with your deacons, priests, and bishops. Them give them a sampling that you feel is best for them. Order 100 in any mix (OMS CDs only) for $1/ea plus S & H, or any 10-99 for $3/ea plus S & H. These resources have a proven track record. They just need you to pass them along.Thanks and blessings.Steve KoobDirectorOne More SoulPS will be happy to take your order~~www.OMSoul.comTo: nfpprofessionals From: droyalsmiles@...Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2011 08:52:45 -0400Subject: Re: Re: Situations that bishops CAN influence

Here is another God-incidence! I've been cleaning out stuff in my house, and just recently gave away 5 grocery bags full of audio tapes and a few CDs from conferences in the past, and others that I had just purchased to listen to in the car. I finally decided I would never listen to them again, and gave them away. But I kept a select few, and have been listening to them.I just finished listening to a talk that Dr. Kim Hardey from Lafayette, LA gave to some seminarians as part of a day or so of education on Feb 16, 2000. The publisher is listed as Champions of the Truth, Inc. in Lafayette. Is Dr. Hardey by any chance on this list?!?At any rate, he, as a ObGyn NFP-only doctor, gives his thoughts to the future priests about how we can get more people practicing NFP. His suggestions sound like a big plug for a relatively new youth ministry organization called Fraternus, which just happens to have a chapter in LA south of New Orleans. Fraternus was not even a thought in 2000; it is just beginning its 3rd program year,At any rate, Dr. Hardey says it is too late to wait until marriage prep to teach them about NFP because they have mostly already embarked on a lifestyle that includes contraception, pornography, etc. He says we must reach out to boys in the 7th and 8th grade to get them started on a life of chastity, etc. (I hope I'm remembering this accurately enough, but that is the gist of it.)And he exhorts the future priests to preach on this subject frequently to conteract the culture, which exerts such a strong influence the other 6 days and 23 hours of the week.I was hoping to do something with that tape after I get someone to convert it to a CD for me. I just thought it fit right in with what you've been discussing.Diane Royalformer CCL NFP teacherville, FLYou are so right Father Tom. I believe VI said in HV something to the effect that at the words of the priest in the homily the Holy Spirit causes those words and that truth to resonate in the hearts of the believer just as you are saying, and as perhaps St. was saying in the passage below. This is part of the sacramental "munus docendi" that is your power and not that of the non-ordained.But, sometimes bishops and priests all too easily forget both the sacred power that is theirs and the duty that goes along with it. Sometimes they need encouragement to remember it fully and act on it. I often remember, when considering this subject of the laity's role in strengthening the pastors, St. 's words -- I believe in 2 Cor. 3 -- where he says something like "Have we need of letters of recommendation (to come among you and preach) as some do? But you are our letter of recommendation, written on our hearts, not on tablets of stone but rather by the Holy Spirit". In other words too seldom does the parish priest or bishop see in the laity both a convinced source of support for his arduous pastoral task, as well as a convincing testimony of true love. He looks at culture, at the average Sunday Mass congregation, or the average crowd visible just about anywhere, and he sees love growing cold (I don't say there aren't any bright spots at all). Contraceptive congregations are not that source of visible support, that much-needed big fat "yes" to self-sacrificing love the priest desperately needs to see in the congregation, that is if he is to be strengthened in his own exceedingly demanding vocation to love. Love is needed to reform a diocese, correct wayward laymen professionals, etc.But today's bishops would do well to seek out their Catholic doctors in their own dioceses and start calling them in in a spirit of fatherly love and support, seek to befriend them, but also refuse to shrink from the needed pastoral task of calling them too to holiness and reminding them of the thief in the night, which in their case means "cease and desist" from all that is unholy in their work and now, not tomorrow! This way, not only can their souls be saved but also all those being led into scandal, i.e., into sin by the doctor's recommendations, counsel, and interventions. If they refuse they refuse, but at least that way they had a chance.It's just one man's opinion, but my gosh what do they have to lose, considering that right now they're losing almost the entire Church in the West!Sincerely yours,Dominic M. Pedulla MD, FACC, CNFPMC, ABVM, ACPhInterventional Cardiologist, Endovascular Diplomate, Varicose Vein Specialist, Noncontraceptive Family Planning Consultant, Family Planning ResearcherMedical Director, The Oklahoma Vein and Endovascular Center (www.noveinok.com,veininfo@...)Executive Director, The Edith Stein Foundation (www.theedithsteinfoundation.com) (office) (cell) (FAX)pedullad@...“Our fundamental purpose is not to go out and help the poor. For us, this has only been a means. Our purpose is to maintain the Catholic faith within us, and to allow its diffusion to others through the instrument of charity.” Blessed Frederic Ozanam, a 19th century founder of the Society of Saint De Re: Re: Situations that bishops CAN influence Dominic, Your last sentence reads, "Should we approach our bishops on this, and tell them we need their help?" Who is "we"? The members of this List? NFP teachers in general? Priests? Since 1977 I have periodically advocated that the NFP "movement" in the States and Canada needs an umbrella organization for those who teach chaste natural family planning. No FAM + whatever during the fertile time. Yes, it would be great if individual bishops and the bishops as a body would do something about the situation you address. But what can they do about the situation of clinicians? Wouldn't it be wonderful if they would do something positive about those situations that they can influence right in their respective dioceses and parishes? In 1989 a US bishops' committee urged that every engaged couple be required to attend a full course on NFP. Twenty-two years later, six dioceses have that requirement with a seventh trying to get there. The more recent bishops' documents on NFP and marriage failed to mention that requirement. To repeat, an association that represented all the fully Catholic NFP organizations might have a better chance of having some influence. Kippley Re: Re: Situations Catholics face, On limiting evil vs. cooperation with evil Again, such great points, Fr. ! Before becoming a nurse practitioner, I worked as an RN for 5 years in one of our local Catholic hospitals, St. 's, where contraceptives aren't prescribed and sterilizations aren't performed. That's one of the primary reasons I chose to work there b/c I knew I wouldn't have to take part in anything contrary to my faith which was a nice freedom. I plan on talking w/ my collaborating physician next week to discuss having our front desk staff alert patients that I don't prescribe contracepives at the time of scheduling and/or when they come in (we also see walk-ins, too). As you put it, I think this is the best way to "resist the emotionally strain" of the situation. Thank you so much! , I have read your question again, and think there is no need to repeat what and Fr. Tom have said so well. I will add however a few examples that suggest that Catholics can work "in very difficult circumstances" if they can resist the emotional strain and are not being used.-NFP physicians hospitalize patients in hospitals where contraceptives are prescribed. Should they stop hospitalizing their patients in these hospitals because this involves some monetary support for them? I only know of one hospital where contraceptives are not prescribed, the Hospital of the Univ. of Navarre, my alma mater. I imagine there are a few more.-Priests in a parish hear confessions side by side to other priests who teach things contrary to the faith, for ex. regarding sexuality. Do associate pastors positively need to leave any assignment where this is happening?-Are Catholics who work in large corporations or the stock exchange and witness immoral practices always obliged to leave even if they are not formally cooperating in evil actions?-We pay taxes to a government that pays for abortions; should we stop paying taxes?I think the general answer to all these questions is "no." Naturally each situation needs to be studied with the necessary details and a person should distance himself as much as possible from wrong doing. Having said this, I think you should try to distance yourself more from the prescription of contraceptives, for example, by giving the patient a card explaining what you do without referring them to your colleague. But you are doing a lot of good in your work, and I commend you for this,Fr. Dominic,I appreciate your delicate conscience in the matter when so many are callous. I believe, you, Fr. and I do agree in principle, however. Question is in the translation without splitting hairs. It may all come down to 'sstatement as you said, "we decided". My presumption is that wanted 'no part' in providing contraceptives to patients, directly or indirectly. Unfortunately, I am not familiar with the health practice protocols and doctors' office routines as described them. This world forces us into many moral choices. I think, however, it may be possible to work in a doctor's office stipulating to those in charge one's moral limits and hopefully they agree and honor one's conscience. would need to 'decide' if she is being used for immoral purposes. By way of analogy I recall a personal moral quandary I faced when ( way back when ) I was in the Army Reserves during the Viet Nam War which I considered immoral. I had decided that if I was "called up" in the conflict I would refuse and be court-marshaled and perhaps imprisoned. I was not called up. That was not the Army I joined, and while a Reservist I did my duty. Blessings,Fr. Tom Dominic,You make it sound like it is so easy. Unfortunately, it is not. For instance, in Florida, where is practicing, it is required to submit a written protocol to the State Board, and this protocol has to be approved, in writing by a physician the NP, CNM, or CRNA has made arrangements with for "back-up", is employed by, "supervised" etc.So in essence, we/they have to have "approval" for what we are doing and how we are doing it.The exact wording, from http://www.doh.state.fl.us/mqa/nursing/nur_statutes.html:An advanced registered nurse practitioner shall perform those functions authorized in this section within the framework of an established protocol that is filed with the board upon biennial license renewal and within 30 days after entering into a supervisory relationship with a physician or changes to the protocol. The board shall review the protocol to ensure compliance with applicable regulatory standards for protocols. The board shall refer to the department licensees submitting protocols that are not compliant with the regulatory standards for protocols. A practitioner currently licensed under chapter 458, chapter 459, or chapter 466 shall maintain supervision for directing the specific course of medical treatment. Within the established framework, an advanced registered nurse practitioner may:....So you can see the dilema for those of us who are not physicians. I MOVED my whole family to OMAHA, and took a temporary job there precisely so I could attend the combined program Creighton Model training. Having that training in no way made it easier to have a private practice- at least not one that would be substantial enough to pay for my mortgage and my groceries, let alone clothing and misc for my children.I have not even had enough NFP clients to become certified as a practitioner in the 7 years since I completed that program. And since there have been very few physicians who know and practice only NFP, let alone the Creighton Model, it has been very difficult to find any job or position of employment that is supporting of that. The best we - as NP's/CNM's (and probably PA's) can get is tolerance, and even that is hard to come by. To get it in *writing* that they (physicians) approve of our protocols is even harder. Add to that the difficulty in getting the physicians to agree to "let us" RX the medications that are needed, (ie bio-identical progesterone, HCG tx, low dose clomid, etc).- and we have another battle...That said, every state has different rules, and some states do allow for independent practice, such as Iowa, Arizona, New Mexico, Colorado and perhaps a few others I can't recall offhand. I am not trying to be negative, but you need to understand that as hard as it is for a physician to be NFP only, it can be that much harder for a non-physician provider to be NFP only. Your last 2 statements are very true, however, that is where the cross comes in. I think that has done all that she can in her situation, and do not agree that telling the patient what to expect next is "helping" or being complicit in any way. Nor is is she being complicit in agreeing to letting the physicians see the patients behind her. She really has no choice in this situation, other than to leave the practice, unless one of the other suggestions we have made will be agreeable. I think the fact that the physicians she is working with are at least being tolerant of her NFP only practice, is admirable on their part. They obviously do not have the background or understanding for our theological, ideological or biological objections to the practice of contraception. Sounds like is working on that end of it though! Sandrock, RNC-OB, APRN, CNM, MSNNow to go beyond being negative! After going to Creighton and becoming both NFP medical consultant and practitioner, she will see the way forward out of this because she will see that she does not need to be in this association to have a practice. (I did the same thing before establishing my "contraceptology" clinic) Nor does she need to be used so that the FP-MD can waltz in and write the corrupt prescription after has done all the hard work, only to be severely demoralized by the end result and by being undermined consistently. This last thing and the moral problem is the likely reason she feels the way she does and who can blame her. To me it is morally, emotionally, and professionally defeating and an untenable situation and no Catholic provider ought to feel she has to remain in it.-- Fr. R. Vélez765 14th Ave, Apt 1San Francisco, CA 94118Website: www.newmanbiography.com