RE: Why go on?

[Guest guest]

Kaiden wrote:

>I've been reading about substance abuse and suicidal depression as a part of

>a number of autists life experience. It certainly has been part of mine.

>I've tried to arrest the desire to slowly, or quickly, self-destruct by

>looking for " meaning " in life, but I can't find any.

I'm lucky that my default setting is " mildly cheerful. "

Not that I don't get depressed; I do, though not to a

" clinical " degree, ordinarily, and it doesn't tend to

last very long at a time.

Self-destruction seems redundant to me. The one thing

we can be sure of is that we are going to die. So why

rush it? All we have to do is wait and it will happen

automatically.

Meanwhile, there are always things that I can do that

interest me. Reading is a big one for me, and I am

fortunate to live in a city with a good library (at

the moment; lack of funding threatens it woefully).

Making bears. Treating myself (in moderation) to

favorite food as needed (pizza, ice cream, delicious

juices....). Taking a walk and seeing birds, trees,

cats, etc.

" Meaning " ? What does " meaning " mean in this context?

>I'm wondering if this is just part of the depression and/or post-traumatic

>stress that comes from being an " alien " compared to 99%+ of the population,

>or if it's actually part-and-parcel with the autistic condition.

>

>What do you think, and have you found a " reason to live " ?

To some degree, depression is part of " the human

condition. " Autistics probably are more prone to

it (perhaps more prone to the clinical variety)

due to living at an angle to those around them

and, all too frequently, being mistreated. I'm

not sure that has anything to do with " reason to

live, " though. I mean....what do I mean? Hmmmmm.

The most anyone has, I think, is a reason to be

interested in the next little while. For example,

if I am making a bear, I look forward to seeing

how it turns out, so that gives me a " reason for

living " that long.

If I am sick or depressed or otherwise feeling too

yucky to be interested in anything at the moment,

I try to have faith in the proposition that sooner

or later I will feel better and begin to enjoy

(be interested in) something again. Even if I am

not able to feel much confidence in that faith, I

still have no reason to self-destruction, since I

know absolutely that all I have to do is wait for

nature to take its course. Might as well give life

a chance to turn up something lovely while I wait.

Of course, one of the most enjoyable aspects of life

is that it can give one a sense of being useful. As

when writes an essay, posts it on his web site,

and hears from people who find it incredible helpful

and illuminating. Or when Larry has a chance (because

he's worked damn hard for it) to be an autistic voice

in an agency formerly closed to autistics (although

dedicated to " helping " us). Or when Jypsy's site

gives the parent of a newly-diagnoed child her first

glimpse of autistic reality, as opposed to whatever

CAN-type propaganda she was given by her doctor. Or

when Alice subjects herself to the huge overload of

traveling all the way from Northern New York State

to Georgia in order to witness for her deepest

beliefs and speak out against torture and repression.

And so on.

A wise woman on another list points out that the best

thing to do when sunk in the slough of desond is to

tend to one's body until the depression eases. Eat

rationally (give your body the nutrition it needs for

health), exercise regularly (exercise has a beneficial

effect on brain chemicals related to depression), get

enough sleep, maintain decent hygiene. Following that

advice can help keep a depression from deepening due

to physical deterioration.

Jane

[Guest guest]

> I'm lucky that my default setting is " mildly cheerful. "

> Not that I don't get depressed; I do, though not to a

> " clinical " degree, ordinarily, and it doesn't tend to

> last very long at a time.

> Self-destruction seems redundant to me. The one thing

> we can be sure of is that we are going to die. So why

> rush it? All we have to do is wait and it will happen

> automatically.

That makes a good deal of sense.

<snip>

> " Meaning " ? What does " meaning " mean in this context?

I have found that " meaning " is a deceptive idea when it comes to life.

When people say, " There is no meaning to life, " they tend to mean

something very negative. But to me, " Is there meaning to life? " is a

question that is itself meaningless. And to me that is a very

*positive* thing, because life *is*, and that is enough.

But I doubt that makes any kind of sense in words.

> >I'm wondering if this is just part of the depression and/or

post-traumatic

> >stress that comes from being an " alien " compared to 99%+ of the

population,

> >or if it's actually part-and-parcel with the autistic condition.

> >

> >What do you think, and have you found a " reason to live " ?

> To some degree, depression is part of " the human

> condition. " Autistics probably are more prone to

> it (perhaps more prone to the clinical variety)

> due to living at an angle to those around them

> and, all too frequently, being mistreated. I'm

> not sure that has anything to do with " reason to

> live, " though. I mean....what do I mean? Hmmmmm.

> The most anyone has, I think, is a reason to be

> interested in the next little while. For example,

> if I am making a bear, I look forward to seeing

> how it turns out, so that gives me a " reason for

> living " that long.

I find that the main " reason " I have for living is that I am alive,

but that again " reason to live " seems like the sort of thing where

something is again wrong with the *question*. But it's hard to put

into words what I mean by that.

> If I am sick or depressed or otherwise feeling too

> yucky to be interested in anything at the moment,

> I try to have faith in the proposition that sooner

> or later I will feel better and begin to enjoy

> (be interested in) something again. Even if I am

> not able to feel much confidence in that faith, I

> still have no reason to self-destruction, since I

> know absolutely that all I have to do is wait for

> nature to take its course. Might as well give life

> a chance to turn up something lovely while I wait.

That seems similar to what I do.

> Of course, one of the most enjoyable aspects of life

> is that it can give one a sense of being useful. As

> when writes an essay, posts it on his web site,

> and hears from people who find it incredible helpful

> and illuminating. Or when Larry has a chance (because

> he's worked damn hard for it) to be an autistic voice

> in an agency formerly closed to autistics (although

> dedicated to " helping " us). Or when Jypsy's site

> gives the parent of a newly-diagnoed child her first

> glimpse of autistic reality, as opposed to whatever

> CAN-type propaganda she was given by her doctor. Or

> when Alice subjects herself to the huge overload of

> traveling all the way from Northern New York State

> to Georgia in order to witness for her deepest

> beliefs and speak out against torture and repression.

> And so on.

Those things can feel good, but I often hesitate to use them in the

" reason to live " department because a lot of people aren't in a

position to do those things, and a lot of depressed people *really*

can't do those things. Seeing things like that can get a person into

an endless litany of " I'm useless, I'm useless, I'm useless. " To me

there's no such thing as a useless person, and while those kinds of

contributions are good, existence is the most fundamental contribution.

> A wise woman on another list points out that the best

> thing to do when sunk in the slough of desond is to

> tend to one's body until the depression eases. Eat

> rationally (give your body the nutrition it needs for

> health), exercise regularly (exercise has a beneficial

> effect on brain chemicals related to depression), get

> enough sleep, maintain decent hygiene. Following that

> advice can help keep a depression from deepening due

> to physical deterioration.

I would say that is good advice. I have a friend who also taught me

to see that state as a kind of emotional exhaustion, needing a certain

kind of emotional rest that the body is trying desperately to get.

[Guest guest]

" Message: 5

Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 08:57:12 -0600

Subject: Why go on?

I've been reading about substance abuse and suicidal depression as a part of

a number of autists life experience. It certainly has been part of mine.

I've tried to arrest the desire to slowly, or quickly, self-destruct by

looking for " meaning " in life, but I can't find any.

I'm wondering if this is just part of the depression and/or post-traumatic

stress that comes from being an " alien " compared to 99%+ of the population,

or if it's actually part-and-parcel with the autistic condition.

What do you think, and have you found a " reason to live " ?

it is not so much a reason to live, as not enough reason to want to die now. in

the past, it was different.

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[Guest guest]

> I have found that " meaning " is a deceptive idea when it comes to life.

> When people say, " There is no meaning to life, " they tend to mean

> something very negative. But to me, " Is there meaning to life? " is a

> question that is itself meaningless. And to me that is a very

> *positive* thing, because life *is*, and that is enough.

>

> But I doubt that makes any kind of sense in words.

I think it does. I asked about it because when I tried to find meaning, I

just found preservation. The preservation was on " The Matrix. " While still

a good movie, I didn't like " The Matrix, Reloaded, " and if this horrid

hack-job of a sequal was all I had to look forward to, then life certainly

wasn't worth living. Then, I joined a 12-step group. When I had a meltdown

and was almost-but-not-quite diagnosed as autistic, I realized that

12-step-group stuff really wasn't for me (that and reading the entire A.A.

book while locked up in the complex and realizing that their spiritual

philosophy, while more " neutral " then any particular denomination, was still

very " Aristotelian " in nature). I decided to look at all my problems as

being part of autism, either as a direct manifestation or as an indirect

manifestation of PTSD. I'm not BLAIMING autism, mind you. Autism is nice,

it gives me strange insights that I personally consider of MORE value than

the NT skills I lack. I mean, imagine an eight-year-old saying, " computers

are another dimension. " Sounds like sci-fi bullshit, like " TRON " or

something, until you realize I was noticing that data could be stored as

sound (because, back then, we had audiotape drives for PC's like the

TSR-80), and sound could be transmitted either from place-to-place by tape

or over the telephone. Thus, computers have true " Telepathy. " I was

talking about the Internet, as an eight year old, back in 1982 with no prior

exposure to the concept other then noticing how a program I write on one

computer and save to tape can go to another computer and run there. If you

ask me, I consider that a HIGH level insight for a second-grader back in

1982... but that's just me. It's hard to tell what an eight year old

autistic boy is thinking half the time, and if you ask him he'll probably

tell you something about how if all computers had radios, they'd act like a

global mind. Distributed processing comes to mind, but it's probably just a

childhood fantasy. All computers are good for (circa 1982) is playing

Pac-Man, right?

[Guest guest]

This message from alfamanda arched across the cosmos:

>I have found that " meaning " is a deceptive idea when it comes to life.

>When people say, " There is no meaning to life, " they tend to mean

>something very negative. But to me, " Is there meaning to life? " is a

>question that is itself meaningless. And to me that is a very

>*positive* thing, because life *is*, and that is enough.

>

>But I doubt that makes any kind of sense in words.

It makes sense to me, because I feel the same way. Also, to me, life

having no meaning is not the same as living life meaninglessly. I don't

feel a need for an externally-imposed " meaning " for being here, doing what

I wish and existing is meaningful enough to me.

>I find that the main " reason " I have for living is that I am alive,

>but that again " reason to live " seems like the sort of thing where

>something is again wrong with the *question*. But it's hard to put

>into words what I mean by that.

Again, I agree... I've wondered, though, whether that attitude on my part

is because I've spent the majority of my life not being sure how long I

would live because of my organ defects mixed with the way my brain works --

I can't grasp theological beliefs either. I've heard that people with

" near death experiences " tend to have the same attitude I always have --

were you born with the sense that your purpose is just to be alive, or did

you pick it up later in life?

>[being useful] can feel good, but I often hesitate to use them in the

> " reason to live " department because a lot of people aren't in a

>position to do those things, and a lot of depressed people *really*

>can't do those things. Seeing things like that can get a person into

>an endless litany of " I'm useless, I'm useless, I'm useless. " To me

>there's no such thing as a useless person, and while those kinds of

>contributions are good, existence is the most fundamental contribution.

Yes... I like being useful, but I was also content (and often still am)

just reading books or running around with a bunch of cats. I guess for me,

the meaning of life has always been basically just that I'm not dead yet.

DeGraf ~*~ http://www.sonic.net/mustang/moggy

[Guest guest]

Kaiden Fox wrote:

> I've tried to arrest the desire to slowly, or quickly,

> self-destruct by looking for " meaning " in life, but I can't find any.

....

> What do you think, and have you found a " reason to live " ?

I know what it is like to be deeply depressed, although I am not sure

exactly where the threshold of " suicidal depression " lies. I never

attempted suicide, but that was a function of my fear of making things

worse for myself, not because I had any desire to live. I fantasized

about suicide all the time, and I had no plans for the future, because I

did not think I would have one. I pretty much assumed that eventually I

would get the courage to off myself. I was in a holding pattern, with

the eventual end-point being death, once I became courageous enough.

For me, the end to that was a function of antidepressant drugs. While

they do not work for a lot of people, NT or not, they worked for me, and

probably as well as they have ever worked for anyone. When I started

Zoloft back in 1997, the depression that had held me for seven years

lifted in two weeks. I did not know how to think or feel-- without my

familiar blanket of despair and self-loathing, nothing made any sense.

I wished to have the depression back, because the way I felt at that

point was so odd and foreign. I did not, though, give into that urge; I

kept taking the meds, and it was not long before I adapted to not hating

myself, life, and everything.

Now that the depression is controlled, the questions I had as to the

meaning of life are gone. It isn't something I think about anymore.

Like the others have said in this thread, my meaning of life now is to

live. There is not a specific goal or a driving force that makes life

worthwhile, when otherwise it would not be. That false dichotomy is a

function of what depression does to your perception of the world.

Losing the desire to die means that death is no longer the default, with

life only becoming worthwhile if there is sufficient reason. If life is

the default, you just don't think about it in the same way. Or at least

I don't. For me, the things to live for only became apparent after the

depression was gone. They didn't pull me from the depression, because

the depression blinded me to them. The things that I do now, the things

that I look forward to, the things that keep me going, had no meaning

when I was depressed.

The " pull yourself up by your bootstraps " approach would not have worked

for me. I write " would not " and not " did not " because I never tried

it. That was because I had very little desire to escape the depression,

and it takes a lot of force of will to cognitively change your

destructive thought patterns. I could " clearly " see how bad things were

from my depressed perspective; I thought that people that were not

depressed were not paying attention, and that depression at the state of

things was the most rational way to be. I hated how I felt, but to me,

it was the only way, other than death... I identified so strongly with

the depression that I feared that not being depressed would change me

into someone else, much as I now say that being made NT would change me

into someone else. I would rather have, at many points during my

depression, died as me than lived as someone not depressed-- which meant

to me that I would be living as someone else.

Fortunately, I can now state in hindsight, I was persuaded to try

antidepressants. I would not have gone to a doctor to get them, but if

they were mailed to me, I may have been willing to try them... and that

is what happened. It turned out to be a very good decision for me. I

only wish that others could see the same efficacy of these meds that I

do. Despite all of my experience with depression, I have no real

insight as to how to fix it if drugs do not work. I have no experience

in that area. I do know, though, that the pervading, all-encompassing

sensation of hopelessness doesn't seem so real once you're not under its

influence.

[Guest guest]

While I don't think I have either experinced the intensity, or duration

of the depressive state describes (nor do I have half the

eloquence, you really do blow my mind sometimes buddy) I do concurr with

one point...

Having experience happiness, and more importantly feelings of hope,

motivation, determination and ability.... (yes zolft was my first wonder

drug too) well those good feelings are also a real part of me, an

alternate reality I had not experienced since early childhood in any

large or predictable amounts (okay except on drugs of some kind :-\ )...

so I cling to the memory of those good feelings and successes,

especially on days like these...

thanks for the reminder that it could be worse, and that it can get

better...

dani,

who is trying to use every thing in her past and present as a

springboard and not a sofa...

(but it is hard today, friends :'( )

Klein wrote:

> Kaiden Fox wrote:

>

> > I've tried to arrest the desire to slowly, or quickly,

> > self-destruct by looking for " meaning " in life, but I can't find any.

>

> ...

>

> > What do you think, and have you found a " reason to live " ?

>

> I know what it is like to be deeply depressed, although I am not sure

> exactly where the threshold of " suicidal depression " lies. I never

> attempted suicide, but that was a function of my fear of making things

> worse for myself, not because I had any desire to live. I fantasized

> about suicide all the time, and I had no plans for the future, because I

> did not think I would have one. I pretty much assumed that eventually I

> would get the courage to off myself. I was in a holding pattern, with

> the eventual end-point being death, once I became courageous enough.

>

> For me, the end to that was a function of antidepressant drugs. While

> they do not work for a lot of people, NT or not, they worked for me, and

> probably as well as they have ever worked for anyone. When I started

> Zoloft back in 1997, the depression that had held me for seven years

> lifted in two weeks. I did not know how to think or feel-- without my

> familiar blanket of despair and self-loathing, nothing made any sense.

> I wished to have the depression back, because the way I felt at that

> point was so odd and foreign. I did not, though, give into that urge; I

> kept taking the meds, and it was not long before I adapted to not hating

> myself, life, and everything.

>

> Now that the depression is controlled, the questions I had as to the

> meaning of life are gone. It isn't something I think about anymore.

> Like the others have said in this thread, my meaning of life now is to

> live. There is not a specific goal or a driving force that makes life

> worthwhile, when otherwise it would not be. That false dichotomy is a

> function of what depression does to your perception of the world.

>

> Losing the desire to die means that death is no longer the default, with

> life only becoming worthwhile if there is sufficient reason. If life is

> the default, you just don't think about it in the same way. Or at least

> I don't. For me, the things to live for only became apparent after the

> depression was gone. They didn't pull me from the depression, because

> the depression blinded me to them. The things that I do now, the things

> that I look forward to, the things that keep me going, had no meaning

> when I was depressed.

>

> The " pull yourself up by your bootstraps " approach would not have worked

> for me. I write " would not " and not " did not " because I never tried

> it. That was because I had very little desire to escape the depression,

> and it takes a lot of force of will to cognitively change your

> destructive thought patterns. I could " clearly " see how bad things were

> from my depressed perspective; I thought that people that were not

> depressed were not paying attention, and that depression at the state of

> things was the most rational way to be. I hated how I felt, but to me,

> it was the only way, other than death... I identified so strongly with

> the depression that I feared that not being depressed would change me

> into someone else, much as I now say that being made NT would change me

> into someone else. I would rather have, at many points during my

> depression, died as me than lived as someone not depressed-- which meant

> to me that I would be living as someone else.

>

> Fortunately, I can now state in hindsight, I was persuaded to try

> antidepressants. I would not have gone to a doctor to get them, but if

> they were mailed to me, I may have been willing to try them... and that

> is what happened. It turned out to be a very good decision for me. I

> only wish that others could see the same efficacy of these meds that I

> do. Despite all of my experience with depression, I have no real

> insight as to how to fix it if drugs do not work. I have no experience

> in that area. I do know, though, that the pervading, all-encompassing

> sensation of hopelessness doesn't seem so real once you're not under its

> influence.

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Kaiden wrote:

> I've been reading about substance abuse and suicidal

> depression as a part of a number of autists life ex-

> perience. It certainly has been part of mine. I've

> tried to arrest the desire to slowly, or quickly, self-

> destruct by looking for " meaning " in life, but I can't

> find any.

> I'm wondering if this is just part of the depression

> and/or post-traumatic stress that comes from being an

> " alien " compared to 99%+ of the population, or if it's

> actually part-and-parcel with the autistic condition.

> What do you think, and have you found a " reason to live " ?

There have been some excellent answers to this, by Jane

and , and . I don't think I've ever

been " clinically " depressed, just the sort that happens

on account of having some serious things to be depressed

about, a " rational " depression, if you will. For this,

I was always able to temporarily improve my outlook with

music. Okay, music and marijuana, if you want the whole

truth. During the 70's, my intake of the latter was in

fact, substance abuse, but I quit for several years, and

when I began again, in '88, I was much more responsible

in that regard. At this point, that has ended, because

I don't have a safe connection to secure it again. No

problem.

I still have the music, and I still have the attitude that

accompanied the MJ use. That is, a particular way of look-

ing at things, and a certain sense of humor. I don't know

how long you've known you were on the spectrum, but for me,

it was such a huge relief to find out; everything started

to make so much sense, that I just haven't had any " down "

day since. I now have friends and acquaintances on the

internet, and each and every one of them are friends and

acquaintances that I never had before, an aspect of life

that was sadly lacking. I had gone for months, years,

without saying anything of significance to anyone, and it

really makes a difference to have a connection with people,

however limited and on our own terms the connection is.

Have I found a reason to live? I'm going to pretend that

I just took a hit and say, " Hey, bro, you got sump'n

better to do? " The onliest things you can do in a pine

box is feed the worms and push up daisies, and that just

ain't any fun. *This* is where the action is, and believe

it or not, *you* are in charge of what happens from here on

out. You can decide what sort of thoughts you will choose

to entertain in your mind. You CAN chase out the negative

thoughts, and think of better things instead.

And to answer your question " straight " , yes, I help others

in my job, and by doing so, I somehow put myself beyond

needing help. It's curious how that works, but it does.

Clay

And now, because everyone knows I'm just full of maxims

for living, here is an appropriate one:

" The grand essentials of happiness are: something to do,

something to love, and something to hope for. "

....................Allan K. Chalmers....................