Re: can I have a show of hands...?

[Guest guest]

danielle strom wrote:

> Hi everyone, (warning - this is very personal and I know it

> approaches rant status at times...

Rants are okay

> so I guess the issues I am asking for feedback on today is one of " do

> autistics have affect? " or " can a person be autistic if they can

> show emotions? " again... sigh sorry people (It really is boring

> having to keep educating people about basic facts. isn't it) :-\

I have not met a higher-functioning ASD person yet that was devoid of

affect. Even the autistic kids I see at the DDD place when the adult

autistic support meetings coincide with ASA Tucson events for the kids

(ie Easter egg hunts) show expressions. Maybe not the way the NT adults

want them to, or not as much, or maybe not consistently, but I would not

say they are without affect.

I can have a very flat affect at times. When I am interacting with

people I do not know well, or when I am otherwise in an unfamiliar

environment, or just under stress, I tend to have a very monotonic voice

and an expressionless gaze. However, this is not how I always am. I

show a lot of expression at times.

[Guest guest]

dani wrote:

> I do not want others to go thru this experience of being

> told you are not who you believe yourself to be... that

> the only thing that makes sense to you is wrong? )

I've been through that; my family doesn't accept my Dx.

I say, " Screw 'em " . I only told them so that they would

understand if others in the family show symptoms of it.

> I am asking for feedback on today is one of " do autistics

> have affect? " or " can a person be autistic if they can show

> emotions? " again... sigh sorry people (It really is boring

> having to keep educating people about basic facts. isn't it) :-\

Yes, yes, and I never had any doubt about you being on the

spectrum. I'll write again later, have to go to my last

case now.

Clay

[Guest guest]

thanks guys! looking forward to hearing more..

Clay wrote:

> dani wrote:

>

> > I do not want others to go thru this experience of being

> > told you are not who you believe yourself to be... that

> > the only thing that makes sense to you is wrong? )

>

> I've been through that; my family doesn't accept my Dx.

> I say, " Screw 'em " . I only told them so that they would

> understand if others in the family show symptoms of it.

>

> > I am asking for feedback on today is one of " do autistics

> > have affect? " or " can a person be autistic if they can show

> > emotions? " again... sigh sorry people (It really is boring

> > having to keep educating people about basic facts. isn't it) :-\

>

> Yes, yes, and I never had any doubt about you being on the

> spectrum. I'll write again later, have to go to my last

> case now.

>

> Clay

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

> > so I guess the issues I am asking for feedback on today is one

of " do

> > autistics have affect? " or " can a person be autistic if they can

> > show emotions? " again... sigh sorry people (It really is boring

> > having to keep educating people about basic facts. isn't it) :-\

> I have not met a higher-functioning ASD person yet that was devoid

> of affect. Even the autistic kids I see at the DDD place when the

> adult autistic support meetings coincide with ASA Tucson events for

> the kids (ie Easter egg hunts) show expressions. Maybe not the way

> the NT adults want them to, or not as much, or maybe not

> consistently, but I would not say they are without affect.

I have never met an autistic person yet who is completely without

affect, and I have spent time around a lot of autistic people who

were not classified as high-functioning. Smiling sometimes, or

moving bodies more sharply or less sharply in certain particular

ways, or throwing tantrums, are all affect.

Many autistic people who can manage it can also manage an entire NT-

mask of affect even if they don't know what it means.

I have seen a friend of mine talk to me in a monotone, with a blank

face. Then she saw an NT come in the room and her face started

scrunching up and moving all over the place, and her voice started

going up and down. Then back to me and she was talking and looking

normal (for her) again.

> I can have a very flat affect at times. When I am interacting with

> people I do not know well, or when I am otherwise in an unfamiliar

> environment, or just under stress, I tend to have a very monotonic

> voice and an expressionless gaze. However, this is not how I

> always am. I show a lot of expression at times.

I can show a lot of expression or almost none, also. Also I am

better at automatic expression than faked/social-dependent

expression. I have trouble using expressions to create different

impressions socially, and not all of my expressions for a certain

emotion coincide with the NT equivalent, but I do *have*

expressions. (It was absolutely bizarre, after spending most of my

time lately around NTs, to visit that friend, because she could read

all of my expressions effortlessly, and most NTs are really bad at

it. She could even read things about me that normally are masked by

my *so-called* flat affect, things I am glad I trust her because I am

very used to people not being able to see them and would have felt

invaded if she were someone else.)

[Guest guest]

alfamanda wrote:

> I have never met an autistic person yet who is completely without

> affect, and I have spent time around a lot of autistic people who

> were not classified as high-functioning. Smiling sometimes, or

> moving bodies more sharply or less sharply in certain particular

> ways, or throwing tantrums, are all affect.

I did not mean to imply (if you or anyone took my statement this way)

that lower-functioning autistics do not have affect... only that I have

far less experience with autistics that are not classified as high

functioning. I have never gotten to know anyone that was supposed to be

low-functioning; the exposures I have had have been fleeting and

momentary. As such, I am really not qualified to say, from my own

experience, whether lower-functioning autistics have a certain kind of

affect.

[Guest guest]

I think that my affect is pretty close to NT. I know that I

exaggerate some voice tones to make myself more expressive, but

mostly I think I am average with affect. Maybe a little sullen

looking when I am not talking to anyone.

The family I work for has a dad newly dxd with AS, a son with AS a

daugther with PDD,NOS (probably really another AS) and a normal mom.

The dad is pretty normal until he gets' stressed (which I have seen)

then he's like a cardboard cutout. The son seems normal to me,

pretty normal voice tonations and everything. (he's really tweaked

neurologically, but acts quite typically teen). The daughter is very

spacey and unfocused most of the time and her voice is kind of quiet

and flat, but not always, she has a really pretty face when she

smiles and she really lights up. She's bouncy when she has something

fun to talk about, but not icky sugary.

I don't think flat affect is even one of the main DSM qualifications,

if anything its a soft sign, and not necessary for diagnosis.

The real kickers for AS/HFA are; stimming and perseverating and

having a hard time with body language/facial expressions/timing to

moderate interactions with people. If you have a problem with eye

contact, too much, too stiff or not enough, that's autistic.

It's kind of like dancing to a different set of music than what the

NTs are dancing to. (I think)

Also if you have sensory issues, those really point to autism

spectrum, those are not neccessarily part of ADD. You can have ADD

and AS together. Cerebellar issues like clumsiness, bad handwriting,

poor coordination. Those are common in autism, too, I don't know if

they are so much in ADD.

I don't have the citations to give to back my opinions up, but I

think they are correct as far as how autism differs from just ADD.

Camille

> >

> > > I do not want others to go thru this experience of being

> > > told you are not who you believe yourself to be... that

> > > the only thing that makes sense to you is wrong? )

> >

> > I've been through that; my family doesn't accept my Dx.

> > I say, " Screw 'em " . I only told them so that they would

> > understand if others in the family show symptoms of it.

> >

> > > I am asking for feedback on today is one of " do autistics

> > > have affect? " or " can a person be autistic if they can show

> > > emotions? " again... sigh sorry people (It really is boring

> > > having to keep educating people about basic facts. isn't it) :-

\

> >

> > Yes, yes, and I never had any doubt about you being on the

> > spectrum. I'll write again later, have to go to my last

> > case now.

> >

> > Clay

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

dani wrote:

> I hope that people are free to comment, but be kind

> please! if you are okay with me sharing your ideas

> (not your name necessarily) with the person concerned,

> please let me know... I have the feeling this will be

> an ongoing debate...

You could use this, Dani.

_______________________________________________________

I'm remembering back to my first visit back home after

Navy Boot Camp. Two of my older sisters were also there,

at my Dad's invitation, because he didn't really like

to spend any time with me without a " buffer zone " . (My

evil sister, Pat, finally admitted this to me a few years

ago, gleefully rubbing it in.) But the year I'm talking

about was 1964, and my family was lazing around the living

room after Sunday breakfast. I had casually mentioned that

I had failed one of the battery of tests they gave us, and

was apparently color-blind. This set off such a commotion!

They all said, " Oh, you couldn't possibly be color-blind.

That doesn't make any sense! We would have known it before

now. " I said, " But that's what they said in the Navy. "

My father couldn't accept it; after all, I was *his* son,

and there couldn't possibly be anything wrong with me!!

They each challenged me with, " What color is that chair? "

And I said, " Brown. " What color is the carpet? " " Gray. "

" What color are those drapes? " " Off-white? " And they'd

say, " See, you're not color-blind at all, what are you

trying to put over on us? "

I can't argue with three people, especially if my father

is one of them. I don't like arguing at all, ever, for

just this reason - in my family, the one who argues loudest,

makes the ugliest faces, or intimidates the most is the

winner. They beat me down, and made me feel guilty or some-

thing for trying to tell them I was color-blind. I wish I

could go back in time for real, like I just did in my mind,

and tell them what I really thought. Knowing my style, I

would start off slowly, very quietly, and say something

like, " Listen, I'm 18 now, and you can tell me. Was I

adopted? " That would have set off another round from them,

like, " Where are you getting THIS shit from? - How could you

possibly think blah-blah, - Of all the knuckle-headed blah.

And then I would have said, " I want to know how I could

possibly have been born into this IGNORANT FUCKING FAMILY

who thinks that color-blindness means that a person can

only see in black and white!!! I suppose it sounds straight-

forward to you, blind to color, but that's not what it means,

and you couldn't BE more wrong if your BUTTS were on Back-

wards!!! And why in Hell are you attacking me? Where is this

venom coming from that you're trying to put me down with?

(I failed to express just how meanly they had spoken to me.)

Dad, you're probably color-blind and don't know it. It's in-

herited. I happen to be color-blind with red and green, and

it's a proven fact, so you all can just shove it!!!

Ah well, that's not the way it went though, back in real time.

As I said, they beat me down, and I LOST the " argument " ! But

I was Still color-blind, no matter what they said.

It's the same thing with my Asperger's Diagnosis. My father

was already long dead, and I didn't even try to tell my mother,

whom I understand, is dying now. Haven't seen that bitch since

1975 or so. I did try to tell my sisters, and I learned then

that my oldest sister's 2 sons took Ritalin for ADHD or some-

thing. The middle sister's 2 sons also took Ritalin, and the

youngest of them probably has a very mild form of Asperger's.

She doesn't want for him to have a " label " of any kind. Neither

does he. I had a phone conversation once, with the evil sister,

Pat, and she was all denial of my Dx. Everytime I said some-

thing that recalled an incident where it might have been sus-

pected, she had an answer for it. She just likes to screw with

my head. The youngest sister had 3 girls. I suspect my son has

Asperger's, and he does also. He used to have a lot more prob-

lems getting along than he does now. He got a Bad Conduct Dis-

charge from the Navy.

I wonder if this post sounds like I have a " flat affect " ?

I most certainly don't, chickie. Am I to understand that

you have a degree, and actually get paid to sit around and

write bogus diagnoses, when you know next to nothing about

what the hell you're talking about? Check your premises!!!

" Color-blind " doesn't mean " blind to color " , and " autism "

doesn't mean one necessarily has a " flat affect " . Your

book-learning is for naught, if you think you know what

autism or Asperger's is all about. There's a lot more to

it than that, and you've got a lot of research to do before

you can claim to know what you're talking about.

Clay

[Guest guest]

Dani wrote:

>so I guess the issues I am asking for feedback on today is one of " do

>autistics have affect? " or " can a person be autistic if they can show

>emotions? " again...

Sometimes people react to my emotions when I have no idea that

I'm showing them. For example, many years ago, I was working in

the office of an orthopedist. My office was outide his office.

He had an appointment to meet with one of the students. When

the student showed up (on time) the doctor was in his office

talking to another doctor. Although I reminded him of the

appointment, he continued to talk to the other doctor. The

student waited, but by the time the doctor-to-doctor talk

ended, the doctor in question had to leave and couldn't talk

to the student even though the student had waited for him.

When the doctor (the one I worked for) emerged from his office,

I did not say a word. I don't know how he knew what I was feeling

(I have rigid standards for some things, and I did not approve

of his failure to keep his appointment), but he did. He referred

to it several times over the next few days, in terms of trying

to get himself back in my " good graces. "

Other times, people *think* they are reading emotions in me

but they are wrong. For example, people often think I am sad

when I'm not.

But as for *having* emotions, sure, I have them. Often the

emotion I have in a particular situation is not the specific

emotion people think I " should " be having. And sometimes the

level/amount of emotion I have may seem " inappropriate " to

other people -- either " not enough " or " too much. " Sometimes

people think I am weird for acting on an intellectual analysis

in situations where they think an emotional response is called

for.

But emotions, yes, I've got 'em.

Jane

[Guest guest]

> > I have never met an autistic person yet who is completely without

> > affect, and I have spent time around a lot of autistic people who

> > were not classified as high-functioning. Smiling sometimes, or

> > moving bodies more sharply or less sharply in certain particular

> > ways, or throwing tantrums, are all affect.

> I did not mean to imply (if you or anyone took my statement this way)

> that lower-functioning autistics do not have affect... only that I have

> far less experience with autistics that are not classified as high

> functioning. I have never gotten to know anyone that was supposed

to be

> low-functioning; the exposures I have had have been fleeting and

> momentary. As such, I am really not qualified to say, from my own

> experience, whether lower-functioning autistics have a certain kind of

> affect.

I didn't take it that way, but I've just added a photo to the album

that illustrates quite well that autistic people can have affect (and

affection). It is me with one of the first close friends I've ever

made, at someone else's graduation party in special ed. She is

classified as 'low functioning' and I was classified as 'high

functioning', but we have relatively similar affect (blank -- at least

to NTs -- sometimes, quite animated at others). In the picture, she

has much more affect than I do, although at that point my flat affect

was being helped along by prescription overdoses of Zyprexa (40

mg/day) and lithium (no clue how much, but too much). Which is also

why I'm stiffer than I normally look in that picture.

At any rate, that is in an " " album now in the photos section.

Also, a good source for whoever was trying to tell an autistic person

that autistic people can't have affect is here:

http://www.picturepage.net/

[Guest guest]

thanks for sharing - yep those are the same resistances I am talking

about...! I now realize I have had this same historical resistance from

my family to any type of conclusions I reached in your search for

answers.... (just to clarify who were you directing your comments to in

the last paragraph? - I am assuming this is a piece of communication to

someone else?)

I think that " families " don't want to look in the mirror more than

most... especially when the rest of society tells them that as a family

they should all toe the party line etc... that family values and

" normalcy " are like bread and butter... if you start to talk about how

different anyone is (especially difinably weird as ina dx) they all

freak, and it doesn't matter if you are only speaking for yourself...

you are the traitor...

and it's not like I haven't been there before - just a few months ago,

as I was being appproved for permanent disabiltiy benefits, my mother

decided that because hse now has a thyroid problem and because most of

my symptomology can be explained by Thyriod dysfunction, therefore I

must not have fibro and therfore must be curable and must not be doing

something right and should really talk to my dr.... you know I was

thinking I would just accept it and get a freakin' scooter for when I

can't walk for months on end due to the pain...

and they (NT's) think we're weird huh? ;-) :-\ :-P

Clay wrote:

> dani wrote:

>

> > I hope that people are free to comment, but be kind

> > please! if you are okay with me sharing your ideas

> > (not your name necessarily) with the person concerned,

> > please let me know... I have the feeling this will be

> > an ongoing debate...

>

> You could use this, Dani.

> _______________________________________________________

>

> I'm remembering back to my first visit back home after

> Navy Boot Camp. Two of my older sisters were also there,

> at my Dad's invitation, because he didn't really like

> to spend any time with me without a " buffer zone " . (My

> evil sister, Pat, finally admitted this to me a few years

> ago, gleefully rubbing it in.) But the year I'm talking

> about was 1964, and my family was lazing around the living

> room after Sunday breakfast. I had casually mentioned that

> I had failed one of the battery of tests they gave us, and

> was apparently color-blind. This set off such a commotion!

> They all said, " Oh, you couldn't possibly be color-blind.

> That doesn't make any sense! We would have known it before

> now. " I said, " But that's what they said in the Navy. "

> My father couldn't accept it; after all, I was *his* son,

> and there couldn't possibly be anything wrong with me!!

> They each challenged me with, " What color is that chair? "

> And I said, " Brown. " What color is the carpet? " " Gray. "

> " What color are those drapes? " " Off-white? " And they'd

> say, " See, you're not color-blind at all, what are you

> trying to put over on us? "

>

> I can't argue with three people, especially if my father

> is one of them. I don't like arguing at all, ever, for

> just this reason - in my family, the one who argues loudest,

> makes the ugliest faces, or intimidates the most is the

> winner. They beat me down, and made me feel guilty or some-

> thing for trying to tell them I was color-blind. I wish I

> could go back in time for real, like I just did in my mind,

> and tell them what I really thought. Knowing my style, I

> would start off slowly, very quietly, and say something

> like, " Listen, I'm 18 now, and you can tell me. Was I

> adopted? " That would have set off another round from them,

> like, " Where are you getting THIS shit from? - How could you

> possibly think blah-blah, - Of all the knuckle-headed blah.

> And then I would have said, " I want to know how I could

> possibly have been born into this IGNORANT FUCKING FAMILY

> who thinks that color-blindness means that a person can

> only see in black and white!!! I suppose it sounds straight-

> forward to you, blind to color, but that's not what it means,

> and you couldn't BE more wrong if your BUTTS were on Back-

> wards!!! And why in Hell are you attacking me? Where is this

> venom coming from that you're trying to put me down with?

> (I failed to express just how meanly they had spoken to me.)

> Dad, you're probably color-blind and don't know it. It's in-

> herited. I happen to be color-blind with red and green, and

> it's a proven fact, so you all can just shove it!!!

>

> Ah well, that's not the way it went though, back in real time.

> As I said, they beat me down, and I LOST the " argument " ! But

> I was Still color-blind, no matter what they said.

>

> It's the same thing with my Asperger's Diagnosis. My father

> was already long dead, and I didn't even try to tell my mother,

> whom I understand, is dying now. Haven't seen that bitch since

> 1975 or so. I did try to tell my sisters, and I learned then

> that my oldest sister's 2 sons took Ritalin for ADHD or some-

> thing. The middle sister's 2 sons also took Ritalin, and the

> youngest of them probably has a very mild form of Asperger's.

> She doesn't want for him to have a " label " of any kind. Neither

> does he. I had a phone conversation once, with the evil sister,

> Pat, and she was all denial of my Dx. Everytime I said some-

> thing that recalled an incident where it might have been sus-

> pected, she had an answer for it. She just likes to screw with

> my head. The youngest sister had 3 girls. I suspect my son has

> Asperger's, and he does also. He used to have a lot more prob-

> lems getting along than he does now. He got a Bad Conduct Dis-

> charge from the Navy.

>

> I wonder if this post sounds like I have a " flat affect " ?

> I most certainly don't, chickie. Am I to understand that

> you have a degree, and actually get paid to sit around and

> write bogus diagnoses, when you know next to nothing about

> what the hell you're talking about? Check your premises!!!

> " Color-blind " doesn't mean " blind to color " , and " autism "

> doesn't mean one necessarily has a " flat affect " . Your

> book-learning is for naught, if you think you know what

> autism or Asperger's is all about. There's a lot more to

> it than that, and you've got a lot of research to do before

> you can claim to know what you're talking about.

>

> Clay

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Dani, I hope you realized that I meant this part for " the

person concerned " , who denied you were on the spectrum.

> I wonder if this post sounds like I have a " flat affect " ?

> I most certainly don't, chickie. Am I to understand that

> you have a degree, and actually get paid to sit around and

> write bogus diagnoses, when you know next to nothing about

> what the hell you're talking about? Check your premises!!!

> " Color-blind " doesn't mean " blind to color " , and " autism "

> doesn't mean one necessarily has a " flat affect " . Your

> book-learning is for naught, if you think you know what

> autism or Asperger's is all about. There's a lot more to

> it than that, and you've got a lot of research to do before

> you can claim to know what you're talking about.

[Guest guest]

just checking but that was what I thought... she in fact doesn't even

havea degree, another reason why she's got a LOT of nerve... and well,

a hell of an autistic style of clinging to her positions :-\ wouldn't

you say ;-) ???

I mean I say it again (and again and again)

labelling - it's so much of just semantics, timing and politics...

thanks for confirming clay!

Clay wrote:

> Dani, I hope you realized that I meant this part for " the

> person concerned " , who denied you were on the spectrum.

>

> > I wonder if this post sounds like I have a " flat affect " ?

> > I most certainly don't, chickie. Am I to understand that

> > you have a degree, and actually get paid to sit around and

> > write bogus diagnoses, when you know next to nothing about

> > what the hell you're talking about? Check your premises!!!

> > " Color-blind " doesn't mean " blind to color " , and " autism "

> > doesn't mean one necessarily has a " flat affect " . Your

> > book-learning is for naught, if you think you know what

> > autism or Asperger's is all about. There's a lot more to

> > it than that, and you've got a lot of research to do before

> > you can claim to know what you're talking about.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

thanks camille and everyone! this info is the sort of concrete stuff I

needed to get focussed on, as I was too taken aback to be able to focus

on the symptoms etc... !

so here is my break down... feel free to add more people... I have been

meaning to write down all this before....

I do stim, but mostly stuff people don't see, when I am alone,... people

don't understand that my manic talking IS verbal stim alot of the

time... when I am nervous or don't know what to do or don't want to

switch tasks...

I did realize reacently that I have what could be considered (at times)

a non functional routine, (think that is an AS thing?_) which is mapping

physically in my head with pictures everywhere I go, everywhere I talk

think about, and everywhere everyone else talks about too... to the

point where I am disruptive to teh conversation to get the info I need

to feel I can move on... if I am thinking of phoning a professor I would

be locating his office in my head as I think of the process of finding

his number and calling and what I am going to say... or picturing the

street corner of the shop of my next stop, and hte route I will take

before I even get in the car. do you know how many place I might go

and people I have to talk to ina day - this is very tiring - what a

waste of mental energy...!

I do often have issues with timing, (interuppting people) facial

recognition (but once I memorize it is is for life and I'll remember

their name and context too), and expression recognition... I had to

learn eye contact and still have a very difficult tiem to maintain it

appropriately in all situations... (especially if they are some bullshit

NT asshole that I know isn't worth wasting my energy on- but I

digress) but also if I am nervous, or physically stressed... I started

studyoing my expressions and found I was making at least two that are

not what I thought I was expressing... my partner does the sullen thing

when he's bored and I think he's mad... I like what (amanda) said about

if they are spontaneous they are more natural. I think that really

explains me alot 0 I am a big laugher I find humor ina lot, but most

people don't realize I laugh inappropiately too, and it is often nervous

laughter whiel I try to figure out what has been said... other times it

is inappropriate because of the venue or crowd... I laugh too loud too

long etc...

actually Donna WIlliam's 3rd book that refer to " characters " or " faces "

as a way she and her partner became aware they were using to interact

with the world and I found the ideas and structure she gave to her

experience really helped me a with lot of clues to both my affective

behaviors and the little rote things I had learned to do to cover when I

don't know how to be socially or emotioanlly appropriate... my partner

is less integrated and I even have named his 'faces' ... it is really

interesting now that we are about a year or so from identifying these

parts of ourselves,m to see how they come and go at different times. - I

even ID one in me that is similar to my brother... a tough guy thing....

pprotective, rebellious...

so for me I say yes to me having all of the following too... clumsiness,

hi pain threshold (as a child) but with areas of strength in sports,

(hyperactive), and later showed strengths in spatial activities

including building and desiging structures (furniture & even one house)

but can't estimate anything over 20 yards distance wise... not able to

learn handwriting, unable to learn basic math until my 20s, unable to

learn higher math functions, brilliant in expressive language,

speaking, theorising, connecting structural ideas, brainstorming,

writing, (sorry english only so far ;-) ) able ot make friends, but not

able always to keep them, and with (unbelievably in the face of my

modulation problems) strengths in emotional intuition and supportive

communication.

add to this Intense mood swings and various other modulation problems,

perceptual problesm, vision problems, two standard deviations off the

norm for Sensory Intergration Dysfunction on a standardized test (hyper

sensitive to visual, olfactory, auditory and some tactile, and

HYPOsensitive to movement and touch), periods of clarity and brilliance,

periods of confusion, dependence, withdrawal... unable to sustain long

term emplyment in a typical setting... unable to maintain many

friendships at a time, unable to converse with many people at a time,

unable to know whether or not people want to continue a conversation or

topic, unable to control myself even when I see the behavior as manic or

whatver... go home cursing myself for not being able to shut up or

wondering if I actually got all that was going on... I repeat myself

until I know I am heard but what constitutes feeling heard is

variable... sometimes I think I am so busy talking that I can't hear

what they are saying anyway...lol

I mean if I'm having a day where I " m swearing alot (gee do you think

this was one of those?) well I am not swtiching to say I have Tourettes

or anything, so why would I switch to saying " I have ADHD " when I don't

even know enough about ADHD to be able to say I believe it... I am not

saying I have MS even though if that was dx'd symptomatically I would

qualify on many accounts... I am so pissed off to be letting myself get

goaded into reacting to her narrow view of " what is autism " ... but maybe

she is right and I will hit resistance, and should have my self prepared

to respond to the challenge...

I suppose I am trying to get all my venting done here as I have to go

back to the group and this colleague in a professional capapcity in a

few days and I want to feel I am feeling strong and sure of my position,

and perhaps even my motivations... well, as strong as I can be on this

my first venture back into the Real World, since the Fibro became so

debilitating... I wanted to volunteer, and of course due to my

inextinguishable charm I have now landed a number of quite (for me)

intense duties, and I am feeling very overwhelmed... I think the other

party is also not used to sharing her position and so maybe that is part

of the conflict too...

I was too reactive ina way, but I felt I wasn't being heard... one of

the number one reasons I want to create a new resource is to help people

avoid being treated like that by professionals... and so maybe I jumped

in too quick and should stand back and see how she " provides service "

before I lend my name to it... I live in what is essentially a small

conservative town, and I don't want to hoop myself up here associating

with people who have completely different philosophies - because - I

have a lot of work to do...

wow - I've started emailing and I can't stop ...

with hugs and - you guessed it... affection (hee hee hee)

dani

Camille wrote:

> I think that my affect is pretty close to NT. I know that I

> exaggerate some voice tones to make myself more expressive, but

> mostly I think I am average with affect. Maybe a little sullen

> looking when I am not talking to anyone.

>

> The family I work for has a dad newly dxd with AS, a son with AS a

> daugther with PDD,NOS (probably really another AS) and a normal mom.

>

> The dad is pretty normal until he gets' stressed (which I have seen)

> then he's like a cardboard cutout. The son seems normal to me,

> pretty normal voice tonations and everything. (he's really tweaked

> neurologically, but acts quite typically teen). The daughter is very

> spacey and unfocused most of the time and her voice is kind of quiet

> and flat, but not always, she has a really pretty face when she

> smiles and she really lights up. She's bouncy when she has something

> fun to talk about, but not icky sugary.

>

> I don't think flat affect is even one of the main DSM qualifications,

> if anything its a soft sign, and not necessary for diagnosis.

>

> The real kickers for AS/HFA are; stimming and perseverating and

> having a hard time with body language/facial expressions/timing to

> moderate interactions with people. If you have a problem with eye

> contact, too much, too stiff or not enough, that's autistic.

>

> It's kind of like dancing to a different set of music than what the

> NTs are dancing to. (I think)

>

> Also if you have sensory issues, those really point to autism

> spectrum, those are not neccessarily part of ADD. You can have ADD

> and AS together. Cerebellar issues like clumsiness, bad handwriting,

> poor coordination. Those are common in autism, too, I don't know if

> they are so much in ADD.

>

> I don't have the citations to give to back my opinions up, but I

> think they are correct as far as how autism differs from just ADD.

>

> Camille

>

>

>

> > >

> > > > I do not want others to go thru this experience of being

> > > > told you are not who you believe yourself to be... that

> > > > the only thing that makes sense to you is wrong? )

> > >

> > > I've been through that; my family doesn't accept my Dx.

> > > I say, " Screw 'em " . I only told them so that they would

> > > understand if others in the family show symptoms of it.

> > >

> > > > I am asking for feedback on today is one of " do autistics

> > > > have affect? " or " can a person be autistic if they can show

> > > > emotions? " again... sigh sorry people (It really is boring

> > > > having to keep educating people about basic facts. isn't it) :-

> \

> > >

> > > Yes, yes, and I never had any doubt about you being on the

> > > spectrum. I'll write again later, have to go to my last

> > > case now.

> > >

> > > Clay

> > >

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

dani wrote:

> thanks for confirming clay!

Actually, I sent this clarification just Before

I read your last response. I always worry about

being misunderstood - happens all the time.

> Clay wrote:

>

> > Dani, I hope you realized that I meant this part for " the

> > person concerned " , who denied you were on the spectrum.

> >

> > > I wonder if this post sounds like I have a " flat affect " ?

> > > I most certainly don't, chickie. Am I to understand that

> > > you have a degree, and actually get paid to sit around and

> > > write bogus diagnoses, when you know next to nothing about

> > > what the hell you're talking about? Check your premises!!!

> > > " Color-blind " doesn't mean " blind to color " , and " autism "

> > > doesn't mean one necessarily has a " flat affect " . Your

> > > book-learning is for naught, if you think you know what

> > > autism or Asperger's is all about. There's a lot more to

> > > it than that, and you've got a lot of research to do before

> > > you can claim to know what you're talking about.

[Guest guest]

it is not about no affect. flat affect is different, so the person can show

emotion, but they will not do it appropriately. even those who express emotion

very strongly do not seem to have the fine control over coordinating facial

parts, so there is always something somehow different about them. i swing

between flat affect and over expressive, but i have no idea when i am doing

what. i read that autistic people have fewer facial nerves.

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[Guest guest]

>

> I didn't take it that way, but I've just added a photo to the album

> that illustrates quite well that autistic people can have affect

(and

> affection). It is me with one of the first close friends I've ever

> made, at someone else's graduation party in special ed. She is

> classified as 'low functioning' and I was classified as 'high

> functioning', but we have relatively similar affect (blank -- at

least

> to NTs -- sometimes, quite animated at others). In the picture, she

> has much more affect than I do, although at that point my flat

affect

> was being helped along by prescription overdoses of Zyprexa (40

> mg/day) and lithium (no clue how much, but too much). Which is also

> why I'm stiffer than I normally look in that picture.

>

> At any rate, that is in an " " album now in the photos section.

>

> Also, a good source for whoever was trying to tell an autistic

person

> that autistic people can't have affect is here:

>

> http://www.picturepage.net/

>

>

myself and Nicollette have picture as well in photo album, yes. we to

be normal seeming in mine opinion, as well to look like everyone

else, i believe so, yes. but some stiffness, and jerking and

twitching we do so, yes. be not so obvious maybe if not the air moves

differently so about us, than NT peoples, yes. sometimes i notice Nt

peoples move much smooth and the air about them as well, yes, and i

notice with AS peoples even those deemed high functioning, yes, that

there to be some stiffness in their movements, yes, or some sort of

fidgeting, they move the air different about them, yes, like so not

so smooth in their place in environment, no.

if that makes, sense, i lost mine grammar program and much lazy for

spellcheck to find it in mine new email service, yes.

and apologise i will do so if i make sense not, no. it takes too

much time to go over everthing. once i wrote suicide note, i did do

so, and three hours it took so to correct and go over. that tired i

became so that i just had to nap much afters, yes.

rambling and napping and eating and napping. been living life like a

friendly puppy, yes, i think i to be a cat now, yes. anyone try being

an animals? much less chaotic, yes. i shall be a cat, yes, Nicollette

too as well, yes.

actually her to be a kitten in her case.

Juli ASD mother to Nicollette Rett Syndrome with autism

[Guest guest]

>

> I did not mean to imply (if you or anyone took my statement this

way)

> that lower-functioning autistics do not have affect... only that I

have

> far less experience with autistics that are not classified as high

> functioning. I have never gotten to know anyone that was supposed

to be

> low-functioning; the exposures I have had have been fleeting and

> momentary. As such, I am really not qualified to say, from my own

> experience, whether lower-functioning autistics have a certain kind

of

> affect.

>

>

strangely, i am considered high functioning, as well as one nephew,

yes, and mine daughter Nicollette and another so nephew to be

considered as low functioning, yes, well altogether theres not much

difference in peoples opinion, no, as we to be appearing much all the

same, we get the higher function it seems so if we to be speaking, it

appears so, or if we have more self help skills, as mine nephew can

go to toilet, wash his hands, talk, brush his own teeth, respond a

bit more, yes, whilst say mine Nicollette i do so change her diapers,

yes, as she unable to do so no, and myself well i can go to the

toilet by myself (most times, and when i can't i can do so change

mine own diaper if i to be wearing one at the said time) but even so

i can do so more self help skills, yes, although it took longer i

beleive to do so.

also when young, i could do as i'm told yes, but got so confused

some, like so when mother person says to me to put on shoes, i do so,

but then she says to put on socks as i'de forgotten to do so although

she not to be saying so in origin of her request, no, and so i put on

socks. and she remarks that i am not so to put socks over mine

shoes, but she had so said unto me to PUT shoes on than so stated to

put on socks that i'd forgotten, and i do so as request, yes, but

socks to be over mine shoes now, yes, because her requests not

orderly no.

she had so to says put on socks then put on shoes, or to correct take

off shoes, then put on socks, then put on the shoes again. but

peoples not make themselves clear, no. and myself to be lower

functioning some because of this, yes. i forgot what i was responding

to, yes.

yes, now i remember, if you to see a video of mine family and myself,

we to be much similar to each other, yes, in outbursts, twitching,

anxieties, meltdowns and shutdowns, as well, yes. the way you can

tell who is termed lower functioning is when those of us that are in

diapers or non verbal, yes, or more help needed to go about daily

activities, yes.

we different chacaters ye, individual all, with different so quirks,

yes, but our behaviors and appearances seem much similar. so i

sometimes wonder about the entire LFA and HFA thing yes, as it seems

not to make a difference when together mine family is so.

[Guest guest]

Its really nice to read a post from you....

And im on the phone to my mum, and she says hello :-), and asks how

you are doing? she really liked you.

Katy is getting better, and she is still alive, and she is eating now.

I hope to read more more posts from you soon.

Im sort of ok, hm. Dunno, guess im " paddling " in time, not getting

anywhere, just plodding along, but not so criticle of myself, like

able to relax about myself, more. I guess you have had a really good

effect on me like that, jee's, if you can do it, i sure should be

able too.

:-)

Also, i understood your posts perfectly, more than most other

people's, you write so directly.

Big sigh......

Hope to speak soon,

Gareth.

> >

> > I did not mean to imply (if you or anyone took my statement this

> way)

> > that lower-functioning autistics do not have affect... only that

I

> have

> > far less experience with autistics that are not classified as

high

> > functioning. I have never gotten to know anyone that was

supposed

> to be

> > low-functioning; the exposures I have had have been fleeting and

> > momentary. As such, I am really not qualified to say, from my

own

> > experience, whether lower-functioning autistics have a certain

kind

> of

> > affect.

> >

> >

>

> strangely, i am considered high functioning, as well as one nephew,

> yes, and mine daughter Nicollette and another so nephew to be

> considered as low functioning, yes, well altogether theres not much

> difference in peoples opinion, no, as we to be appearing much all

the

> same, we get the higher function it seems so if we to be speaking,

it

> appears so, or if we have more self help skills, as mine nephew can

> go to toilet, wash his hands, talk, brush his own teeth, respond a

> bit more, yes, whilst say mine Nicollette i do so change her

diapers,

> yes, as she unable to do so no, and myself well i can go to the

> toilet by myself (most times, and when i can't i can do so change

> mine own diaper if i to be wearing one at the said time) but even

so

> i can do so more self help skills, yes, although it took longer i

> beleive to do so.

>

> also when young, i could do as i'm told yes, but got so confused

> some, like so when mother person says to me to put on shoes, i do

so,

> but then she says to put on socks as i'de forgotten to do so

although

> she not to be saying so in origin of her request, no, and so i put

on

> socks. and she remarks that i am not so to put socks over mine

> shoes, but she had so said unto me to PUT shoes on than so stated

to

> put on socks that i'd forgotten, and i do so as request, yes, but

> socks to be over mine shoes now, yes, because her requests not

> orderly no.

>

> she had so to says put on socks then put on shoes, or to correct

take

> off shoes, then put on socks, then put on the shoes again. but

> peoples not make themselves clear, no. and myself to be lower

> functioning some because of this, yes. i forgot what i was

responding

> to, yes.

>

> yes, now i remember, if you to see a video of mine family and

myself,

> we to be much similar to each other, yes, in outbursts, twitching,

> anxieties, meltdowns and shutdowns, as well, yes. the way you can

> tell who is termed lower functioning is when those of us that are

in

> diapers or non verbal, yes, or more help needed to go about daily

> activities, yes.

>

> we different chacaters ye, individual all, with different so

quirks,

> yes, but our behaviors and appearances seem much similar. so i

> sometimes wonder about the entire LFA and HFA thing yes, as it

seems

> not to make a difference when together mine family is so.

[Guest guest]

> yes, i think i to be a cat now, yes. anyone try being

> an animals? much less chaotic, yes. i shall be a cat, yes,

> Nicollette too as well, yes.

> actually her to be a kitten in her case.

My friend from the picture and I both spent a lot of time being cats.

[Guest guest]

Juli wrote:

> been living life like a

> friendly puppy, yes, i think i to be a cat now, yes. anyone try being

> an animals? much less chaotic, yes. i shall be a cat, yes, Nicollette

> too as well, yes.

>

> actually her to be a kitten in her case.

I live life like a cat, think in a rather cat-like way, and most of my

responses/movements are also like a cat. I even have an amazing ability to

knock things over or off the furniture at random like a cat. *grin*

I love to talk to my cats in their own language, and I generally prefer to

sleep curled up in a ball like they do. One of my favorite things to do is

curl up on the floor on the fleece bed-mats they sleep on in the hallway,

and have them all pile up around/on me for a clowder nap.

To answer (in advance) le's question about why some of us do this...

In my case, it's natural. From their behavior, I am fairly sure that they

have senses, perceptions, and thoughts that are a lot like my own -- so I

am naturally " wired " more like them than I am NTs in particular. It makes

sense that if I can communicate/understand them naturally, my senses are

like theirs, and all of my caring/nurturing instincts are designed for

wokring with cats, that my brain would be automatically interested in

expressing itself like one of them.

It made life very difficult for my parents. I did a lot of things that

were socially unacceptable because of my cat-instincts. Taking all of my

clothes off and wandering around naked on all fours is something I did

regardless of what guests might be present as late as age 13. I know I did

other things but I can't think of them right now. :-p

It's also possible your son is doing it to " show " that he knows he is not

like other human beings, that he is in a sense a different sub-species. It

makes his internal differences external, so others can see how much he's

not like them. Sometimes I do want everybody around me to know that I'm

not one of them, that I am something wilder-yet-domesticated like a cat,

and that urge has been there all along.

I would go more into depth, but I injured my neck recently and for some

reason that's making typing seriously painful (pain shoots up my entire

right arm)...and on top of it I'm having problems functioning in general,

partly because my schedule keeps being seriously disrupted and partly

because I'm stuck using Eudora 3.0 on my ancient tower as my laptop is

fried. :-(

[Guest guest]

> To answer (in advance) le's question about why some of us do

> this... In my case, it's natural. From their behavior, I am fairly

> sure that they have senses, perceptions, and thoughts that are a

> lot like my own -- so I am naturally " wired " more like them than I

> am NTs in particular. It makes sense that if I can

> communicate/understand them naturally, my senses are like theirs,

> and all of my caring/nurturing instincts are designed for wokring

> with cats, that my brain would be automatically interested in

> expressing itself like one of them.

That makes sense, although I'd never thought about it like that. I

just knew I identified more with cats than humans a lot of the time.

> It made life very difficult for my parents. I did a lot of things

> that were socially unacceptable because of my cat-instincts.

> Taking all of my clothes off and wandering around naked on all

> fours is something I did regardless of what guests might be present

> as late as age 13. I know I did other things but I can't think of

> them right now. :-p

My parents didn't appear to mind the " all fours " thing (partly

because I wasn't usually naked while doing it, I suspect) but they

did mind the urine in my room at about the same age. They didn't

particularly like the hissing or scratching other kids, either.

[Guest guest]

I show affect (if you mean facial expression and communication with eyes and all

that). Or at least that is what my mother recently told me. I can't interpret

it when other people do it except by memorization that frown is sad and pursed

lips are angry and smile is happy and crying is sad unless the person is smiling

and if you're going to lie you better make eye contact so they'll believe you.

*grin* If I'm telling a lie, I am sure to make eye contact, but unless I am

telling a lie, I see no need to, so it's the *opposite* of how NTs do it. My

point? ONE of the POSSIBLE symptoms of autism is an IMPAIRMENT with nonverbal

communication. Whether it is with reception or sending signals, an impairment

is an impairment. That symptom is not required for diagnosis, so not all

autistic people have that trait, it's just common. Just like lack of

imagination. I got diagnosed as schizotypal and possibly having childhood

schizophrenia because I had such an active imagination. It was

one of only 2 symptoms that really didn't fit me in the criteria at the time (2

others sort of fit me but not entire, and I otherwise had every single trait

listed in the DSM-III). The other symptoms I didn't have was lack of

communication. They noted many other autistic traits I had, told my mother what

I had was " like autism, in many ways, " specifically started I was unable to

decode nonverbal communication (quote: " She doesn't get social cues. " ) And yet

I got the ADHD/Schizotypal/poss. schizophrenia/Obsessive-Compulsive/Tourette's

diagnosis. And that diagnosis was just simply WRONG. Now I know better.

I once read that ADHD is considered by some to be a mild form of autism, and I

can see where they are coming from. Both are neurological differences. And

maybe they ARE related.

[Guest guest]

<< I got diagnosed as schizotypal and possibly having childhood

schizophrenia because I had such an active imagination. >>

You do know that " childhood schizophrenia " was an old term for

autism, right?

Actually a good deal of autistic people have *quite* an imagination.

We're even known for (just some of us, not all of us) daydreaming a

lot. It's one of the things where the experts say one thing and then

another and never seem to get their contradictions straight.

When I was diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia in my teens (in part

because of some conclusions I'd come to that were perfectly logical

given the amount of information I had, but also perfectly wrong), my

parents said, " But she's *always* had sensory sensitivities and

social problems and stuff, what about *that*? " The answer was " Oh,

that's just childhood schizophrenia. "

People who think psychiatry has come out of the dark ages bewilder me.

[Guest guest]

I've been living as a lion and a fox (although more of the former, of

course), since my first reading of " The Prince. "

I used to pretend I was a tiger as a kid, but I had a *horrid* problem with

actually biting other children. I was naughty. I have stopped since then,

of course.

[Guest guest]

" Kaiden Fox " wrote:

> I've been living as a lion and a fox (although more

> of the former, of course), since my first reading of

> " The Prince. "

You mean by Machiavelli? I don't recall any animals

mentioned there, but it's possible, I guess.

> I used to pretend I was a tiger as a kid, but I had

> a *horrid* problem with actually biting other children.

> I was naughty. I have stopped since then, of course.

I have the energy and ambition levels of a cat.

When Mooncat says, " Omigow! " , it means he's hungry Now!

Clay