Re: Abusive exes (everybody on the list)

[Guest guest]

Sometimes, it takes people a really long time to leave an abusive spouse or

significant other.

Of the people I know that managed to leave such people, one took 29 years,

another took 7 years, one took 3 years, and another took several years but I'm

not sure as she had already been out of the situation for over a year when I met

her. In all of these cases, I saw the abused person do their best to " make

things work, " believing, " S/he will change " and become a good person. Each of

these individuals believe that their abuser could be a good person, but each of

them has also decided they are not going to wait around for that to happen (or

more likely, never happen) but have gotten out of the situation to protect

themselves. And yet they have all continued to have kind feelings towards their

former abusers.

It takes a long time to leave and, for many, an even longer time to stop

remembering the " good times " when they were not being abused, even if those

" good times " were far in the distant past.

People often tend to forget how bad things were once they are out of a given

situation, and perhaps this is part of the problem. At least she has left

him...that is the first step. Recovery from abuse can be a long and difficult

process. All you can really do is be a friend to her, and do your best to talk

her out of it if she ever decides to go back.

I think I once read that the average abused woman goes back 20 times before she

stays away for good. This is average. Some never go back, and some go back

hundreds of times. I hope your friend is very below-average in this matter but

at this point, who knows?

gareth wrote:

This girl at work, who i like very much, is in love with somebody who

beat her when she was pregnant with his baby, he booted her in her

stomach and she lost the baby.

She is a very intelligent, very well liked woman. She is fat and

attractive. Lots of men ask her out. She is a friend of mine, i hope

a good friend. She still loves this disgusting piece of shit that

beat her up, 5 months after they have split up after four years. Why?

Why? i dont understand it. She has EVERYTHING going for her, yet a

disgusting man who killed her baby has her love....... she's as NT as

can be, but i so believe really good. We just hit it off straight

away. Why can she still love him?? why is she so stupid?? i just dont

get it............

I cant impress enough her genuine goodness. She does not need him.

Only she is in love with him...... I just dont

understand!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Guest guest]

> Sometimes, it takes people a really long time to leave an abusive

spouse or significant other.

>

> Of the people I know that managed to leave such people, one took 29

years, another took 7 years, one took 3 years, and another took

several years but I'm not sure as she had already been out of the

situation for over a year when I met her. In all of these cases, I

saw the abused person do their best to " make things work, "

believing, " S/he will change " and become a good person. Each of

these individuals believe that their abuser could be a good person,

but each of them has also decided they are not going to wait around

for that to happen (or more likely, never happen) but have gotten out

of the situation to protect themselves. And yet they have all

continued to have kind feelings towards their former abusers.

>

> It takes a long time to leave and, for many, an even longer time to

stop remembering the " good times " when they were not being abused,

even if those " good times " were far in the distant past.

>

> People often tend to forget how bad things were once they are out

of a given situation, and perhaps this is part of the problem. At

least she has left him...that is the first step. Recovery from abuse

can be a long and difficult process. All you can really do is be a

friend to her, and do your best to talk her out of it if she ever

decides to go back.

>

> I think I once read that the average abused woman goes back 20

times before she stays away for good. This is average. Some never

go back, and some go back hundreds of times. I hope your friend is

very below-average in this matter but at this point, who knows?

**********

Thanks for your reply, susanna....... I see the sad fact that women

go back to be beaten again and again and again.... and id like to ask

the list WHY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thats the mind blowing thing!!!!!!!

I mean, he didnt just punch her, this woman, the wonderfull

intelligent social, friendly woman who everybody loves, lost her baby

to his beatings, and yet she still loves him..... I mean he beat her

till she lost the baby, and he did it many times....... i avoid

violence, despite physically being able to kill most people, but i

swear, this " man " for want of a better noun, inspires me to kill him.

I believe i could, were i to see him hurt her badly and her to cry

out in pain, crush his skull. How can she love him....... I just dont

understand......... It makes me feel mental, like im wrong somehow,

like i just dont get something...... Im not mental am i? it is so

sick, yes? but she isnt dumb, or ugly, i mean people just LIKE her,

without her trying, she knows so many people, NT, criminal people and

so many normall people, and the crimainal ones have said, any time

she wants, they will go round and break the little bastard, when she

was with him, but she protects him, and i just dont understand.......

is it a defect in her, as i hope it is, or am i missing

something.......... i mean, i understand losing my temper, but he

wasnt even apologetic afterwards, he wouldnt even pick her up from

the hospital, hes a

**********************************************************************

**********************************************************************

***************************

I dont

UNDERSTANDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD

D

Its just so 180 degress from who she normally is,........ and i try

so hard to understand, but this is the one female behaviour i just

donttttttttttttt understand!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

*********

Ok, i was going to send it there, but if anybody can tell me, what

can i do, i mean, where you a battered woman........ how can i stop

it? ( i could crush HIM, my concern is to remove him from her head,

with little social graces at my disposal.......... Can anybody

help????

Many thanks in advance, Gareth.

[Guest guest]

gareth danced around singing:

>I see the sad fact that women

>go back to be beaten again and again and again.... and id like to ask

>the list WHY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It is a psychological phenomenon known as Stockholm Syndrome, also known as

Captor Syndrome.

In the syndrome, the person is so routinely and severely mistreated that

he/she comes to believe that they deserve to be abused, plus that they can

*never* escape (this aspect is known as Learned Helplessness). Doing

things that the abuser likes is rewarded by the absence of pain (including

being allowed to have food or to talk to somebody else); the person becomes

so used to always being hurt/deprived that this removal of pain makes the

abuser seem benevolent and deeply loving -- seemingly sparing the victim

out of " kindness " from the torment he/she " deserves. " The victim

eventually becomes psychologically dependent and basically falls in love

with the abuser. It only takes *four days* of being " captive " like this

for an average human being to develop the syndrome.

It actually is almost identical to the application of methods used for

training dogs:

http://www.flyingdogpress.com/hostage.html

There's also an interesting page on how Stockholm Syndrome works here:

http://www.sniggle.net/stock.php

[Guest guest]

> gareth danced around singing:

> >I see the sad fact that women

> >go back to be beaten again and again and again.... and id like to

ask

> >the list WHY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

>

> It is a psychological phenomenon known as Stockholm Syndrome, also

known as

> Captor Syndrome.

>

> In the syndrome, the person is so routinely and severely mistreated

that

> he/she comes to believe that they deserve to be abused, plus that

they can

> *never* escape (this aspect is known as Learned Helplessness).

Doing

> things that the abuser likes is rewarded by the absence of pain

(including

> being allowed to have food or to talk to somebody else); the person

becomes

> so used to always being hurt/deprived that this removal of pain

makes the

> abuser seem benevolent and deeply loving -- seemingly sparing the

victim

> out of " kindness " from the torment he/she " deserves. " The victim

> eventually becomes psychologically dependent and basically falls in

love

> with the abuser. It only takes *four days* of being " captive " like

this

> for an average human being to develop the syndrome.

>

> It actually is almost identical to the application of methods used

for

> training dogs:

> http://www.flyingdogpress.com/hostage.html

>

> There's also an interesting page on how Stockholm Syndrome works

here:

> http://www.sniggle.net/stock.php

***********

I hate all this. Its abhorent. Thanks for cluing me in to this reason

.......... Ughhh though.

I mean, my solution; hope she stays happy, if she goes back, get me

and the boys (her boys, so to speak) to beat him bad, so bad he

leaves town. General abused woman solution; stay with him, " because

he's a good person most of the tim "

I repeat, and these are not just internet words, there are so many

MEN that know her (an inordinate amount) that wish to make that

little prick bleed so bad he would move away.

It just makes us feel bad..............

But she..... well, she is cut up about him, if he asked for her back,

im not to sure....... but at least now, he's away, and likely to stay

that way.

Also, as an aside, what makes men like that? they must be so small,

or im wrong, because thats the opposite of who i am, and though i go

through pain, i feel big sometimes when i have time to collect

myself, so either those men are small, or im mistaken in my

bigness............ and it not possible for me to realistically judge

myself.

But thats all irrelevant, thanks ..........

Gareth.

[Guest guest]

Hi Gareth,

I agree with the concept of Stockholm syndrome, that's what happened

to Patty Hearst (Hurst?).

The other thing is that the guys who do this know that they need to

be nice at some point to keep her so they can lay it on thick, with

roses and sweet talk so that the woman will remember that and think

that it will go back to the dream romance eventually and stay there,

but it won't

The thing you have to remember is that you can get addicted to the

idea of who she is. Sometimes you have to let go. Your feelings for

her are powerful, and I have felt similar feelings myself, I know

that they can be very hard to ignore. I have obsessed on similar

situations. Make sure that you aren't building up a dream situation

yourself wherein you see yourself as a knight in shining armor who

will rescue this lovely woman and then you will live happily ever

after. It just doesn't work that way.

It's also important to remember that you can't really help her to

change her attitude toward the abuser. Therapy might help, but you

can get into a weird savior syndrome if you are not careful. Been

there myself.

I'm sure she's great, and surely did not deserve the abuse. I don't

want to see you get your heart tromped-on or get into a situation

where you try to even the score by hurting him. It will all turn out

bad if you try that.

Try to get your mind onto something (real, like paying bills) that is

not so dramatic and romantic. That's advice that I could have used

at different points in my life.

I hope you don't think I am just criticizing you.

Camille

[Guest guest]

> Hi Gareth,

>

> I agree with the concept of Stockholm syndrome, that's what

happened

> to Patty Hearst (Hurst?).

>

> The other thing is that the guys who do this know that they need to

> be nice at some point to keep her so they can lay it on thick, with

> roses and sweet talk so that the woman will remember that and think

> that it will go back to the dream romance eventually and stay

there,

> but it won't

>

> The thing you have to remember is that you can get addicted to the

> idea of who she is. Sometimes you have to let go. Your feelings

for

> her are powerful, and I have felt similar feelings myself, I know

> that they can be very hard to ignore. I have obsessed on similar

> situations. Make sure that you aren't building up a dream

situation

> yourself wherein you see yourself as a knight in shining armor who

> will rescue this lovely woman and then you will live happily ever

> after. It just doesn't work that way.

>

> It's also important to remember that you can't really help her to

> change her attitude toward the abuser. Therapy might help, but you

> can get into a weird savior syndrome if you are not careful. Been

> there myself.

>

> I'm sure she's great, and surely did not deserve the abuse. I

don't

> want to see you get your heart tromped-on or get into a situation

> where you try to even the score by hurting him. It will all turn

out

> bad if you try that.

>

> Try to get your mind onto something (real, like paying bills) that

is

> not so dramatic and romantic. That's advice that I could have used

> at different points in my life.

>

> I hope you don't think I am just criticizing you.

>

> Camille

********

No, i dont think that your just criticizing me Camile. Big

sigh..................

It was all very intuitive of you,,,,,,,, we DO get on great...... but

she doesnt want me im sure........ not like that...... which is bad

for me yes......... there is a part of me that sees that and that i

cant do anything...... but there is another that wants to do

something anyway!! (although she's not actually with him now, thank

G-d) yes, i do feel strong for her, but also not just as a potential

GF, as a person too, first and foremost. (and they should remain

seperate parts for the good of our relationship) but.... She is so

very special, and good, and people just LIKE her, she's one of the

good ones in life, and i just cant get my head around her loving him,

i mean i could never get my head around it with any woman... It can

give me a complex, really, seeing women with men that treat them bad,

seeing me with nobody, and thinking like " oh, ok, so im s'posd to

treat em bad "

Its oh so wierd and screwed up. Its at times like this that i really

wish i was normall, and not aspergic, so i could do what they wanted,

but i just cant.

Thanks for all your advice, ive let the steam off my system now guys

and galls, so that helps.

Gareth.

[Guest guest]

Camille wrote:

> Hi Gareth,

>

> I agree with the concept of Stockholm syndrome, that's what happened

> to Patty Hearst (Hurst?).

>

> The other thing is that the guys who do this know that they need to

> be nice at some point to keep her so they can lay it on thick, with

> roses and sweet talk so that the woman will remember that and think

> that it will go back to the dream romance eventually and stay there,

> but it won't

Wow... that sounds so much like the situation with , the woman

with whom I had a few dates about a year ago. I've probably already

bored everyone to death with the details of that, but here it is again

in case anyone missed it.

She had a singles ad that sounded interesting, and I responded to it.

We began to communicate in email, and when I went to visit my mother in

California, we began to talk on the phone, and then graduated to a

meeting IRL. By then, I had gotten to hear all kinds of details about

her ex, Greg-- a guy she described as disgusting (as in dirty), purely

emotional without a trace of thinking, abusive, criminal-- and terribly

romantic. This guy had supposedly turned into a stalker, and he was

scaring the heck out of her.

When I went to her city of residence about an hour from my mom's house

to begin our date, I had to wait in the parking lot of a Chinese

restaurant, while she took a taxi there. She was afraid of what would

happen if her stalker, or his network of friends that lived in her

apartment complex, would see her being picked up by some other guy, and

that he might do something to her. He had forbidden her to have any

friends except those that he personally approved, which were the people

that were his friends and would have loyalty to him..

Once her taxi arrived and she got into my car, we had to leave the city

to avoid being seen. I would have liked to stay at the Chinese place;

Chinese is one of my favorite foods, but she was clearly agitated being

in her hometown with this guy around. We went about 15 miles away and

ended up at a Carrow's.

We went out again the next day, and the day after that. It was fun, but

there was no " chemistry " at all. I am not sure what the cause of that

was; I liked her as a person, and we had a lot in common, and although

she was significantly overweight, she was physically very appealing.

Maybe it was that she thought that I was not interested, since I made no

moves at all on her... I wrote about this before on the list. I had no

idea that she was interested, and so I would never make any advances...

not that I even know what that would involve.

We had discussed that I was on the spectrum before we ever met; it was

in my singles ad, which she read before she even wrote back to my

initial email to her. She had a lot of spectrum traits, and after I got

to know her, I began strongly to suspect that she may be on the spectrum

herself. There were, though, some niggling little things that I chose

to ignore because I wanted this to work so much.... things like her

saying that when she and Greg said certain things, pennies would

materialize and fall from the air... how she and Greg set up altars all

over the complex, for reasons unknown... how she suspected that Greg may

be from another planet... and she was dead serious about all of it.

After those three dates, it was coming close to the time where I had to

get back to Arizona. As she was still afraid of Greg (every time we met

or talked, I got to hear about how he had hit her, terrorized her,

thrown her on the hard tile floor, et cetera), I told her she could come

with me and see if she would like it here enough to possibly move here

to get away from him. She agreed, and I stopped by her apartment (in

the middle of the night) and picked her and her stuff up, and we headed

for Arizona.

She did very little other than sleep while she was here. By the time

she got out of bed each evening, everything was closed. We never got to

go to any of the section 8 apartments and see if any of them would take

her voucher, because they were all closed. (I did, though, learn that

she had had been abducted by aliens, and had an implant. She took me to

a web site where there was a test to see if you had been abducted by

aliens, and it was not intended as parody or humor.) After a week, in

which time we had only gone (at night) to look at the places that might

be prospective residences, I took her home. I drove right from her

house to my mother's house, where I would stay for a few more days

before going back to Arizona.

By the time I got to my mom's house, which was about an hour after I

dropped off, she had already emailed me. She found a letter

in her mailbox, from Greg... he wrote her some kind of poem, and filled

the envelope with plant matter (crushed rose petals, she said). She was

in tears... she was practically gushing about how great and romantic

Greg was. What had I just wasted a week for, trying to get her away

from this guy? He had been stalking her, threatening her, hitting

her... she kept telling me how she had called the police, but Greg was

friends with many of the cops in that town, and he told them that she

was nuts, and the police did not believe her... all of this, and all he

has to do is write some cheesy-ass poem and put a dismembered flower in

there and he's got her back?

I went back to Arizona shortly after that, and I got another email,

where she went outside her apartment and found him standing there (like

a stalker would be), and they " basically ravaged one another. " She told

me that she told him that this was just a one-time thing, and he should

not believe it meant that they were back together.

I wrote back and I told her that I thought it meant that they were back

together. I was not pleased... I made an extra trip to California to

bring her back home, 450 miles each way, and spent all this time trying

to help her get away from this guy, and now she went back. I wrote a

rather pointed letter to her to this effect.

She wrote back, and in the midst of her complaining about how mean I

was, she indicated that she was (duh) in a relationship with him again.

Of course.

Not long after that (a few weeks), she wrote again, to the effect of " I

know we're not friends anymore, but I need help. " You guessed it-- Greg

was beating her again, and after she broke up with him again, he

threatened to kill her, and she believed him.

I told her that if she was afraid, she should gather her important

stuff, call a taxi, and get the hell out. Doesn't matter where... find

a Motel 6 some distance away, then figure out where she would go. She

refused... she had a million reasons why she couldn't do that. I told

her to call a women's shelter... a million more reasons why she can't.

She wanted me to come out there and live in her front room for a month,

being her personal security guard, in case he tried something. I told

her no. I had already tried to help her, and she made her choice-- she

went back to him. I was willing to help her, but I would not do it by

myself; she was going to have to help herself too, not continue to

thwart my efforts to help her. I told her that if she wanted to move, I

would assemble a sizable group of adult males (my mom's significant

other had already offered to get a bunch of his friends together to do

this) to help her move out, so there would be too many of us for Greg

and friends to intimidate. She made a bunch of excuses why that would

not work. We didn't communicate for a while after that.

She contacted me again after that, and that was when she let me know

that she had seen Jesus Christ, and it was the most wonderful, spiritual

thing ever in her life. No, not in a vision, but in real life. She was

not being metaphorical; she meant it. I told her that I did not believe

that she had seen Jesus, and that I saw this as a psychosis. She began

to rail on me for being so blind. I told her that until she was ready

to apologize for insulting my religious beliefs (none), I would not talk

to her again. I have not heard from her since.

I have discussed with an autistic female I know that has been

in mental hospitals for a number of years, and who has perseverated on

psychiatry and schizophrenia for years, and she told me that

probably was not on the spectrum, but was more likely instead (mildly)

schizophrenic. I was pretty surprised, because I had her pegged as

mildly AS (I even went over the diagnostic criteria with ,

since I have them memorized (not verbatim though)), but all of those

delusions... there were many more than what I have mentioned here. It's

not so easy to tell the conditions apart when you are looking only at

the current presentation of an adult.

[Guest guest]

> Why? i dont understand it. She has EVERYTHING going for her, yet a

> disgusting man who killed her baby has her love....... she's as NT

> as can be, but i so believe really good. We just hit it off

> straight away. Why can she still love him?? why is she so stupid??

> i just dont get it............

> I cant impress enough her genuine goodness. She does not need him.

> Only she is in love with him...... I just dont

> understand

I don't know the details of this exact situation, but it can be a lot

of things.

My ex convinced me we had a supernatural connection and that if it

was broken we could die or have something really bad happen to us. I

took him quite literally and was *terrified* of the idea of breaking

up with him, although in the end I was the one who did it. I also

immediately sectioned off most of the things he did to me into an

area of my memory labeled " Don't Look Here " , so I naturally didn't

think of him as abusive. I found it bizarre to go through old files

on my computer at the time and find that I had written about the

things he had done, but know that I completely forgot writing about

it, probably even the next day.

There's also a possibility (not an absolute) that if someone is

dominated by someone long enough, and if the right (or wrong, rather)

things happen, to become either emotionally bonded or identified with

that person. An example of that from my own life has two sides to

it -- the time period when I thought I wanted to be a psychologist,

and the time period later when I became convinced that everything I

was doing was staffish.

Some people also mistake high levels of hormones for being " in love

with " someone.

Also, people who spend a lot of time around someone see both their

bad side and their good side. While others may see an abuser as a

monster, people closer to them are more likely to see several facets

of their personality. For instance, my brother is not a single-

faceted person -- he is the person who molested me, the person who

taught me his opinions about the NT world when nobody else would, the

person who taught me self-directed misogyny, the person who got me

out of the house when the house was not a good place to be, the

person who went on long walks and bicycle rides with me, the person

who had a sense of humor I could understand, the person who played

strange mind-games on me, the person who listened to music with me

and took me to concerts, the person who understood why I liked to

collect small objects of various sorts and helped me expand my

collections, the person who liked to go with me to try new kinds of

food, the person who stuck up for me in some bad situations, the

person I argue with nearly every time I see him, the person who

turned himself in to the authorities and changed his behavior

completely, and so forth. My relationship to him is complex -- not

all of the good things are " things he did good for me just so he

could do something bad to me " , some of them are things he did for

good reasons.

When you're *in the middle* of a situation like that, it can be

possible to focus on the good things to the exclusion of the bad

things, while those around you (if they're aware of the bad things)

are most likely focusing on the bad things to the exclusion of the

good things (and are possibly unaware the good things even exist).

It is prudent to learn when the bad things outweigh the good things

and act on that knowledge, but I suspect some of the " why doesn't a

person just leave " stuff is based in *knowing* and *valuing* the good

things (whether they really are good things or just tricks, or a

combination of both).

A person can also be taught in various ways to doubt their own

judgement, and to doubt all the warning signals that say " This person

is bad for me at the moment, get me out of here. " I was quite

carefully and systematically taught that by a psychologist (and I

*still* immediately react with " I must be paranoid, let me check my

thoughts with someone " whenever I mention what this guy did to me --

and that's a perfect example of the thoughts he taught me to have,

and that I have heard even non-psychologist abusers teach people).

I'm sure there are other potential reasons as well.

[Guest guest]

> Thanks for your reply, susanna....... I see the sad fact that women

> go back to be beaten again and again and again.... and id like to

> ask the list WHY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It's not just women -- it can happen to anyone who's being abused.

Children by their parents. Wives by their husbands. Husbands by

their wives. Patients by their shrinks. Anyone. I've seen the same

exact phenomenon in men who were abused, it's just that the most

public instances of abuse of males I've seen were not spouse-

beatings, so they went back (in various ways) to people *other* than

spouses.

[Guest guest]

>

> > Why? i dont understand it. She has EVERYTHING going for her, yet

a

> > disgusting man who killed her baby has her love....... she's as

NT

> > as can be, but i so believe really good. We just hit it off

> > straight away. Why can she still love him?? why is she so

stupid??

> > i just dont get it............

>

> > I cant impress enough her genuine goodness. She does not need

him.

> > Only she is in love with him...... I just dont

> > understand

>

> I don't know the details of this exact situation, but it can be a

lot

> of things.

>

> My ex convinced me we had a supernatural connection and that if it

> was broken we could die or have something really bad happen to us.

I

> took him quite literally and was *terrified* of the idea of

breaking

> up with him, although in the end I was the one who did it. I also

> immediately sectioned off most of the things he did to me into an

> area of my memory labeled " Don't Look Here " , so I naturally didn't

> think of him as abusive. I found it bizarre to go through old

files

> on my computer at the time and find that I had written about the

> things he had done, but know that I completely forgot writing about

> it, probably even the next day.

>

> There's also a possibility (not an absolute) that if someone is

> dominated by someone long enough, and if the right (or wrong,

rather)

> things happen, to become either emotionally bonded or identified

with

> that person. An example of that from my own life has two sides to

> it -- the time period when I thought I wanted to be a psychologist,

> and the time period later when I became convinced that everything I

> was doing was staffish.

>

> Some people also mistake high levels of hormones for being " in love

> with " someone.

>

> Also, people who spend a lot of time around someone see both their

> bad side and their good side. While others may see an abuser as a

> monster, people closer to them are more likely to see several

facets

> of their personality. For instance, my brother is not a single-

> faceted person -- he is the person who molested me, the person who

> taught me his opinions about the NT world when nobody else would,

the

> person who taught me self-directed misogyny, the person who got me

> out of the house when the house was not a good place to be, the

> person who went on long walks and bicycle rides with me, the person

> who had a sense of humor I could understand, the person who played

> strange mind-games on me, the person who listened to music with me

> and took me to concerts, the person who understood why I liked to

> collect small objects of various sorts and helped me expand my

> collections, the person who liked to go with me to try new kinds of

> food, the person who stuck up for me in some bad situations, the

> person I argue with nearly every time I see him, the person who

> turned himself in to the authorities and changed his behavior

> completely, and so forth. My relationship to him is complex -- not

> all of the good things are " things he did good for me just so he

> could do something bad to me " , some of them are things he did for

> good reasons.

>

> When you're *in the middle* of a situation like that, it can be

> possible to focus on the good things to the exclusion of the bad

> things, while those around you (if they're aware of the bad things)

> are most likely focusing on the bad things to the exclusion of the

> good things (and are possibly unaware the good things even exist).

> It is prudent to learn when the bad things outweigh the good things

> and act on that knowledge, but I suspect some of the " why doesn't a

> person just leave " stuff is based in *knowing* and *valuing* the

good

> things (whether they really are good things or just tricks, or a

> combination of both).

>

> A person can also be taught in various ways to doubt their own

> judgement, and to doubt all the warning signals that say " This

person

> is bad for me at the moment, get me out of here. " I was quite

> carefully and systematically taught that by a psychologist (and I

> *still* immediately react with " I must be paranoid, let me check my

> thoughts with someone " whenever I mention what this guy did to me --

> and that's a perfect example of the thoughts he taught me to have,

> and that I have heard even non-psychologist abusers teach people).

>

> I'm sure there are other potential reasons as well.

>

>

********

Very interesting ; All of it, but certainly the last paragraph

i must take note of. I do check up on my thoughts to a painfull

degree, and wonder where this behaviour was learned, or wether its

inbuilt into me.

Its not fun to think about the things people can do to one another.

Gareth.

[Guest guest]

This topic suddenly triggered a memory I had from the summer after seventh

grade.

Seventh grade was a really horrible time for me. From November until the end of

the school year, a classmate named Sam kept threatening to rape me, several

times every day. Sam had been abusive (physically and verbally) since second

grade. He caused the majority of bruises that I would have all school year,

and I actually heard him instructing new students about what would really bother

me so he could abuse me, too. I always saw him as the leader of my abusers. I

think he picked out the shoes he picked just because they were extra-painful

when he kicked me with them. He was horrible and I *hated* him. I was 12 when

he started the sexual harassment...I remember I was at my locker getting out my

English book when he came over to me and I thought he was going to kick me, but

instead he said, " Will you have sex with me? " This shocked me so much I

couldn't even react. He repeated this every day for weeks, until, realizing I

was not going to respond, he started threatening, " If

you don't have sex with me, I'm going to rape you, " and after a few months, he

changed it to, " I'm going to come to your house tonight and rape you. " And,

with my literal mind, I can remember smuggling a steak knife up to my room, and

I remember hiding it under my pillow so that in the event that he broke into our

house (which would not be hard because we did not have locks on the doors) I

would be able to defend myself. I also remember playing through possible

senerios hunderds of times to figure out how to handle such a situation. I

planned for just him showing up, for him coming with several people. While I

did not think it would be very likely for him to ride his bike to my house in

the middle of the night when I lived at least several miles away from him, I did

realize he may have a friend who was old enough to drive or he may already know

how to drive a car. I told some female adults that I trusted (my mother and

Sunday School teacher) and they made recommendations for

how to handle the situation. It was during this time that my mother bought a

tape recorder for me to take to school, concealed, to record everything that was

going on. I had been sexually harassed for many years at school (since third

grade) but I didn't know what any of the words they used meant except for

" bitch " so this seemed to come out of nowhere, when in fact, it had been

escalating for four years.

I remember how relieved I was when summer came and I didn't have to go to school

anymore. But I also remember a strange, bizarre thing that happened that

summer: I developed a sort of crush...on SAM! I didn't understand this at

all...here was this guy who abused me, threatened to rape me, threatened to kill

my entire family...and I suddenly *liked* him?! I must be insane! I remember

thinking about how he could change and become a better person and maybe if I was

nice to him he would start being nice to me. This all started when I found my

second grade class composite picture, and I saw so much fear in his face, and I

realized that he knew what it was like to be terrorized, or to at least to

anticipate it, and I realized that the only reason he abused me was because he

figured people wouldn't abuse him if he lead abuse against someone else. He had

moved in at the end of my first grade year, but he had been in second grade. He

failed second grade. Here he was, the new kid that

just failed. He started abusing me to protect himself. I could empathicize

with him, knowing how I'd love to not be abused but I would not abuse others to

prevent it...I thought I could make him " see the light, " I saw potential in him.

But as soon as the next school year started, I stopped liking him. He was

abusing me again, and my new tactic of being nice rather than being hostile

failed to produce the results I'd hoped for.

And to this day, Sam is the ONLY person who abused me in school that has never

either directly apologized or proven to me that they are not like that anymore.

He was the leader of the abuse. He has been rather hard to forgive, and I still

struggle with that.

I saw him at my cousin's high school graduation a few years ago. I was walking

with my husband when I saw him. I remember that I simultaneously tried to get

into a fetal position and blend into the wall. I was suddenly 12 years old

again and very frightened. I was horrified when his little sister bumped into

me, making my efforts to hide completely in vain.

I wish I were stronger. I wish I could go right up to him and say, " Sam, I have

a question for you: WHY did you abuse me all those years? "

I asked that of every single person that abused me, when they apologized, and

they could only answer, " Because everyone else did. " Since he is the one that

started it, surely he is the one that may be able to answer. I'd like to know

if my theory is right.

Well, that is my experience with having an emotional attachment to an

abuser...while he was not abusing me, I liked him, but as soon as I saw he was

not going to change no matter what I did, I was able to come back to my senses

and detest him as I always had.

[Guest guest]

Hi,

About women, men and schizophrenic like problems.

I have a friend who fits the description of one kind of delusional

disorder (can't remember the type now) I don't know if she believes

that she has delusions or not. There's a kind of delusion wherein

the person thinks that everyone is in love with them. My friend had

very strange ideas that a professional man (very very busy) who she

had worked with a couple of years before, was stalking her, bugged

her car, bugged her house, had keys to her house, had been in her

house moved stuff around...this became enlarged so that he became

someone who had been a special agent in the military and then there

was a big group of conspirators (all men who apparently wanted her

romantically) who were all police and firemen and even employees of a

grocery store chain. They would " signal " each other in public to

pass on information about her (a man within her line of sight touches

his glasses and then he becomes a spy who is watching her and

signalling someone else something...)

She perseverated on police investigations and took classes in

criminal justice although that was not the profession she was trained

in.

She thought license plates were giving her special messages and that

police officers were having them made especially to give her

messages...

Through all of this she was doing a pretty good job of being an

employee and wife and mother (her husband was not very nice to her,

but not abusive in the classic sense).

At any rate, she had a few AS like traits, she used to read

encyclopedias when she was a kid, but she basically loves to be

around people, and doesn't stim, so I figured she wasn't AS.

She didn't hear voices, but did believe that the bug devices allowed

her stalkers to hear her just about anywhere.

I don't know if the woman you dated was delusional, but she was

definately not right in the head. I'm glad you had the good sense

not to get pulled into her dramas any further.

Camille

>

> > Hi Gareth,

> >

> > I agree with the concept of Stockholm syndrome, that's what

happened

> > to Patty Hearst (Hurst?).

> >

> > The other thing is that the guys who do this know that they need

to

> > be nice at some point to keep her so they can lay it on thick,

with

> > roses and sweet talk so that the woman will remember that and

think

> > that it will go back to the dream romance eventually and stay

there,

> > but it won't

>

> Wow... that sounds so much like the situation with , the

woman

> with whom I had a few dates about a year ago. I've probably

already

> bored everyone to death with the details of that, but here it is

again

> in case anyone missed it.

>

> She had a singles ad that sounded interesting, and I responded to

it.

> We began to communicate in email, and when I went to visit my

mother in

> California, we began to talk on the phone, and then graduated to a

> meeting IRL. By then, I had gotten to hear all kinds of details

about

> her ex, Greg-- a guy she described as disgusting (as in dirty),

purely

> emotional without a trace of thinking, abusive, criminal-- and

terribly

> romantic. This guy had supposedly turned into a stalker, and he

was

> scaring the heck out of her.

>

> When I went to her city of residence about an hour from my mom's

house

> to begin our date, I had to wait in the parking lot of a Chinese

> restaurant, while she took a taxi there. She was afraid of what

would

> happen if her stalker, or his network of friends that lived in her

> apartment complex, would see her being picked up by some other guy,

and

> that he might do something to her. He had forbidden her to have

any

> friends except those that he personally approved, which were the

people

> that were his friends and would have loyalty to him..

>

> Once her taxi arrived and she got into my car, we had to leave the

city

> to avoid being seen. I would have liked to stay at the Chinese

place;

> Chinese is one of my favorite foods, but she was clearly agitated

being

> in her hometown with this guy around. We went about 15 miles away

and

> ended up at a Carrow's.

>

> We went out again the next day, and the day after that. It was

fun, but

> there was no " chemistry " at all. I am not sure what the cause of

that

> was; I liked her as a person, and we had a lot in common, and

although

> she was significantly overweight, she was physically very

appealing.

> Maybe it was that she thought that I was not interested, since I

made no

> moves at all on her... I wrote about this before on the list. I

had no

> idea that she was interested, and so I would never make any

advances...

> not that I even know what that would involve.

>

> We had discussed that I was on the spectrum before we ever met; it

was

> in my singles ad, which she read before she even wrote back to my

> initial email to her. She had a lot of spectrum traits, and after

I got

> to know her, I began strongly to suspect that she may be on the

spectrum

> herself. There were, though, some niggling little things that I

chose

> to ignore because I wanted this to work so much.... things like her

> saying that when she and Greg said certain things, pennies would

> materialize and fall from the air... how she and Greg set up altars

all

> over the complex, for reasons unknown... how she suspected that

Greg may

> be from another planet... and she was dead serious about all of it.

>

> After those three dates, it was coming close to the time where I

had to

> get back to Arizona. As she was still afraid of Greg (every time

we met

> or talked, I got to hear about how he had hit her, terrorized her,

> thrown her on the hard tile floor, et cetera), I told her she could

come

> with me and see if she would like it here enough to possibly move

here

> to get away from him. She agreed, and I stopped by her apartment

(in

> the middle of the night) and picked her and her stuff up, and we

headed

> for Arizona.

>

> She did very little other than sleep while she was here. By the

time

> she got out of bed each evening, everything was closed. We never

got to

> go to any of the section 8 apartments and see if any of them would

take

> her voucher, because they were all closed. (I did, though, learn

that

> she had had been abducted by aliens, and had an implant. She took

me to

> a web site where there was a test to see if you had been abducted

by

> aliens, and it was not intended as parody or humor.) After a week,

in

> which time we had only gone (at night) to look at the places that

might

> be prospective residences, I took her home. I drove right from her

> house to my mother's house, where I would stay for a few more days

> before going back to Arizona.

>

> By the time I got to my mom's house, which was about an hour after

I

> dropped off, she had already emailed me. She found a

letter

> in her mailbox, from Greg... he wrote her some kind of poem, and

filled

> the envelope with plant matter (crushed rose petals, she said).

She was

> in tears... she was practically gushing about how great and

romantic

> Greg was. What had I just wasted a week for, trying to get her

away

> from this guy? He had been stalking her, threatening her, hitting

> her... she kept telling me how she had called the police, but Greg

was

> friends with many of the cops in that town, and he told them that

she

> was nuts, and the police did not believe her... all of this, and

all he

> has to do is write some cheesy-ass poem and put a dismembered

flower in

> there and he's got her back?

>

> I went back to Arizona shortly after that, and I got another email,

> where she went outside her apartment and found him standing there

(like

> a stalker would be), and they " basically ravaged one another. " She

told

> me that she told him that this was just a one-time thing, and he

should

> not believe it meant that they were back together.

>

> I wrote back and I told her that I thought it meant that they were

back

> together. I was not pleased... I made an extra trip to California

to

> bring her back home, 450 miles each way, and spent all this time

trying

> to help her get away from this guy, and now she went back. I wrote

a

> rather pointed letter to her to this effect.

>

> She wrote back, and in the midst of her complaining about how mean

I

> was, she indicated that she was (duh) in a relationship with him

again.

> Of course.

>

> Not long after that (a few weeks), she wrote again, to the effect

of " I

> know we're not friends anymore, but I need help. " You guessed it--

Greg

> was beating her again, and after she broke up with him again, he

> threatened to kill her, and she believed him.

>

> I told her that if she was afraid, she should gather her important

> stuff, call a taxi, and get the hell out. Doesn't matter where...

find

> a Motel 6 some distance away, then figure out where she would go.

She

> refused... she had a million reasons why she couldn't do that. I

told

> her to call a women's shelter... a million more reasons why she

can't.

> She wanted me to come out there and live in her front room for a

month,

> being her personal security guard, in case he tried something. I

told

> her no. I had already tried to help her, and she made her choice--

she

> went back to him. I was willing to help her, but I would not do it

by

> myself; she was going to have to help herself too, not continue to

> thwart my efforts to help her. I told her that if she wanted to

move, I

> would assemble a sizable group of adult males (my mom's significant

> other had already offered to get a bunch of his friends together to

do

> this) to help her move out, so there would be too many of us for

Greg

> and friends to intimidate. She made a bunch of excuses why that

would

> not work. We didn't communicate for a while after that.

>

> She contacted me again after that, and that was when she let me

know

> that she had seen Jesus Christ, and it was the most wonderful,

spiritual

> thing ever in her life. No, not in a vision, but in real life.

She was

> not being metaphorical; she meant it. I told her that I did not

believe

> that she had seen Jesus, and that I saw this as a psychosis. She

began

> to rail on me for being so blind. I told her that until she was

ready

> to apologize for insulting my religious beliefs (none), I would not

talk

> to her again. I have not heard from her since.

>

> I have discussed with an autistic female I know that has

been

> in mental hospitals for a number of years, and who has perseverated

on

> psychiatry and schizophrenia for years, and she told me that

> probably was not on the spectrum, but was more likely instead

(mildly)

> schizophrenic. I was pretty surprised, because I had her pegged as

> mildly AS (I even went over the diagnostic criteria with ,

> since I have them memorized (not verbatim though)), but all of

those

> delusions... there were many more than what I have mentioned here.

It's

> not so easy to tell the conditions apart when you are looking only

at

> the current presentation of an adult.

>

>