Re: Is Asperger's Truly on the Autism Spectrum?

[Guest guest]

>Autism ( " self-ism " ) is characterized by impairments in social functioning

>and interactions: Perhaps the disorder occurs because other people

>(other " selves " ) are not interpreted as such by the brain?

As a child of 4 or 5, I developed a theory, (which I later learned was

called " solipsism " ), which served to explain how truly different I felt.

I knew that *I* was real, in mind and body, but suspected that every-

one else, my parents, older sisters, other children, etc., were merely

figments of my imagination! I tried explaining this theory one night

to one of my sisters while she was washing me up to get ready for

bed, (my mother had given up on that nightly chore, because I had

fought so fiercely against her putting Ivory soap in my eyes, nose,

and mouth), and this sister became very indignant at the very idea.

How dare I put myself at the center of the Universe, and suppose

that everyone else was there solely for my entertainment, and could

be in or out of my world, as I chose?

I have since amended that theory to allow that the same is true for

everyone. We all have parts to play, (temporarily or long-term), in

other people's realities. We're only in anyone else's life by their

permission, and can only play the role which they will allow us to

play. Uhh, enough of " Existentialism 101 " for this evening. ;-)

> The team found that the patients perceived faces as if they were

> objects. One of the characteristics of the disorders is the difficulty

> in recognizing other people by their faces.

But this isn't true for all of us. I've always had a special facility with

faces. I could always recognize faces, and never forgot a face. And

I can extrapolate differences in faces over time. That may not have

been clear. If 50 people, between the ages of 20 and 50 brought to

Autreat for instance, pictures of themselves taken when they were 10,

and put all those pictures in a basket, I could tell which pictures be-

longed to whom, and deliver each picture back to its owner. I believe

that, and would bet money on it. And I not only recognize and remem-

ber faces, but I am able to read expressions, body language, and vocal

inflections to a high degree of accuracy.

I've been trying to get a copy of the September 8th issue of Newsweek.

Yesterday, a copy was put into my hands by the wife of one of my

Parkinson's patients. She knows all about my aspieness, and wanted

to know if I'd seen it, which I hadn't yet. On the opening pages of the

article, " Girls, Boys and Autism " , there are 3 pictures of kids. She

showed me these pictures while I was busy feeding her husband, and

she asked me, " Which of these children have autism? " I didn't have

my reading glasses on, and only glanced at the pictures, but said,

" The one on the right. " That was correct.

A few pages later, there are six pictures of different people's eyes,

which supposedly depict several different emotions. I was able to

correctly identify what emotions were shown in pictures of just the

eyes.

> The three-year study resulted in the discovery of reduced activation

> in the fusiform gyrus -- the face-processing area of the cerebral cortex.

> Researchers also observed increased activation in an adjacent region

> of the brain that processes non-face objects.

I would submit to any form of testing, short of vivisection.

> " This finding is very compelling since it fits with our clinical experience

> of autism, " Schultz said. " Persons with autism and Asperger's have

> very little interest in people, and our study shows that this disinterest

> is reflected in the manner in which the visual processing centers are

> organized in their brains. "

Hmmm, I am often intensely interested in people, but I believe that the

motivation behind my interest is something quite different from the norm.

>Schultz stresses that he doesn't know whether this difference in brain

>organization and function is at the heart of the cause of autism and

>related disorders, but speculates:

> " Of the things that the developing child routinely encounters, the

>human face is probably the most frequent and important, " he said.

> " The ability to recognize and remember people by their face is crit-

>ical for all types of interpersonal relationships. The face conveys

>many important types of information, including a person's age, sex

>and emotional state. Decoding this information is critical to success-

>ful functioning within a group. It is precisely these things that are so

>difficult for these patients. "

What if " decoding this information " results in " Too Much Information " ?

Through 50 years of my life, I was inundated with information that I

could not trust, for I could not find any logical reason to suppose there

was any validity to it. When I would try to ask questions to test what

I thought I perceived about people, their reaction was often denial. So,

I was left with self-doubt, and I tried to ignore anything I thought I had

perceived in this way.

Since being Dx'd 4 years ago, I have not tried to ignore such perceptions,

but have often acted on them. Experiments along these lines have Not

proved my perceptions wrong, quite the contrary, but I really must work

on my 'delivery'. (Can't seem to find the right word for that.)

Clay

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" In any moment of decision the best thing you can do is the right thing,

the next best thing is the wrong thing, and the worst thing you can do

is nothing. " - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Theodore Roosevelt - - - - - - - - -

- - - - - -

[Guest guest]

CLAYADAMS@... wrote:

Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 01:03> The team found that the patients perceived

faces as if they were

> objects. One of the characteristics of the disorders is the difficulty

> in recognizing other people by their faces.

But this isn't true for all of us. I've always had a special facility with

faces. I could always recognize faces, and never forgot a face. And

I can extrapolate differences in faces over time. That may not have

been clear. If 50 people, between the ages of 20 and 50 brought to

Autreat for instance, pictures of themselves taken when they were 10,

and put all those pictures in a basket, I could tell which pictures be-

longed to whom, and deliver each picture back to its owner. I believe

that, and would bet money on it. And I not only recognize and remem-

ber faces, but I am able to read expressions, body language, and vocal

inflections to a high degree of accuracy.:18 EDT

** Same for me. <wild guess> Maybe people who have problems with face

recognition are non-visual thinkers. Here is a post i made to another list

regarding Temple Grandin:

** Never read any of her books but I've read some of her writings and I can

relate to what she says about thinking in pictures. This is the way I

think. When I was younger I would think in highly detailed vivid 3-d

color images. And now when I learn something new I form images as I read

the material (I have to read very slowly the first time through.) I'm

pretty sure I'm not AS but somewhere on the autistic spectrum because of

other traits. I have no problems with motor coordination. I recognize

faces, non-verbal language, and am very non-literal.

** In fact everything I hear, or read is abstracted to a high degree.

It seems like things that I experience are " more real " later thinking

about them than while they're happening. While things are happening it's

like I'm observing from somewhere else and I'm only partially there.

Debating anything with anyone is difficult because it would take to long

for me to come up with a response. Besides all of my beliefs are

conditional. I'm not sure if I ever took things literally-- I don't

remember much of my childhood. But on autism lists I do know better than

to use a lot of metaphorical language :0\

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

" In any moment of decision the best thing you can do is the right thing,

the next best thing is the wrong thing, and the worst thing you can do

is nothing. " - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Theodore

Roosevelt - - - - - - - - -

** Or as a friend used to say to me " Do _something_ --anything; even if it's

illegal. "

--June

[Guest guest]

Last night I wrote:

> Since being Dx'd 4 years ago, I have not tried to ignore

> such perceptions, but have often acted on them. Exper-

> iments along these lines have Not proved my perceptions

> wrong, quite the contrary, but I really must work on my

>'delivery'. (Can't seem to find the right word for that.)

The very first example of this was that at Autreat '99,

(immediately after being diagnosed), I saw someone (not met,

just saw him walking and talking to someone else), and got

an impression of him. It was, " silver-spooned techno-geek " .

The fact that he was also Jewish was, in his case, obvious

to anyone, and not very important (might be important to

him, but not to me).

He happened to IM me just before the next Autreat, and had

a lot of time to kill, so I brought up the subject with

him, and told him of my impressions, to ascertain whether

I was correct. He could hardy deny the " techno " part, as

he is a well-paid computer programmer or something, and he

did not take offense at the " geek " part either. What he

had a problem with was the " silver-spooned " part, as he

said his parents had always worked for a living. Well,

that only meant that his definition of " silver-spooned "

was different than mine. My parents had always worked too,

at factories! They also went out drinking regularly. On

further questioning, I learned that his parents had paid

his way through college. To me, that is " silver-spooned " .

I didn't mean that his family was " old money " , and none

of his relatives ever had to work. But that's what it

meant to him. I don't think he likes me. :-)

Clay

[Guest guest]

wrote:

That said, I have a hard time recognizing faces. I'm not wholly unable

to recognize people; there are a great number of cues about a person's

appearance... dress, hair, body build, gait, context, voice tone. If

there is nothing distinctive to remember about the person ( " she's the

one with the white streak in her brown hair, " etc), I tend to not

recognize the person. However, most people are within context to the

point that it is not hard to determine who they are. At the plasma

center, there are only a certain number of people; while I have confused

two fairly dissimilar looking females and two other dissimilar looking

males there, I know them all visually now; there are only so many people

there, and I know what details to look for to discern who they are.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Human faces don't have sharp geometric contours (no right angles). I

took a look at a Rey-Osterreith Complex Figure and I think I would generally

do poorly in such a test. I would just remember the basic shape-- that is my

brain would take in the whole figure at once and gloss over the details. To

me, at first glance the most distinctive thing about a person's face is it's

shape in 3 dimensions.

So for that figure I would probably draw a fish-like object or

whatever. But if I had time to study the figure I would memorize the detail

in other ways such as [verbal] rules like: start with basic rectangle,

divide diagonally, add an antenae to the upper left, etc. I could also

remember *parts* of the drawing visually but defininitely not a detailed

representational image of the whole thing-- just the shape.

June

[Guest guest]

> The very first example of this was that at Autreat '99,

> (immediately after being diagnosed)

Were you *at* Autreat '99?

I don't remember meeting you.

And that is the only Autreat I ever attended.

I was the one running around scared, usually with a big corduroy cloak

pulled around me.

[Guest guest]

wrote:

> Were you *at* Autreat '99?

> I don't remember meeting you.

> And that is the only Autreat I ever attended.

> I was the one running around scared, usually

> with a big corduroy cloak pulled around me.

I was there, briefly.

My supervisor at work found out about it less

than a week before it was to happen, so she

called and made arrangements with Jim. (I could

not have done it.) I could only arrange to be

there on the first day, on Sunday. I didn't

have much opportunity to talk with other people,

but wanted to know more, as I had been dx'd only

a month before. So I went back on Tuesday night,

after work. I managed to button-hole Dave, and

we talked for a couple of hours, first outside,

and when it got cooler, we came inside and stood

talking at the first table, near the entrance.

We didn't actually meet, but I think we did come

within close proximity, if that was you who came

over to ask Dave something. I think I remember

a dark-colored sweat pants and shirt? I have

wondered if that was you.

Clay

[Guest guest]

wrote:

> There is a test of visual memory and perception called

> the Rey-Osterreith Complex Figure. It is supposed to

> be difficult to remember in detail visually, and is

> used as a test of visual memory.

http://cogsci.ucsd.edu/DCNL/research.normal.htm

Okay, I looked that up, and it looks waaaaaay too

technical for me. What is it, the blueprint of a

ham radio? I would fail miserably at that. No good

at drawing, anyway.

(And to ), I have absolutely no ability with Math.

In 1st grade, I had to invent a " count the dots " system

to get by in adding! I used that system all through

school, and still do sometimes. My checkbook is a

dotty mess.

Clay

[Guest guest]

> > Were you *at* Autreat '99?

> > I don't remember meeting you.

> > And that is the only Autreat I ever attended.

> > I was the one running around scared, usually

> > with a big corduroy cloak pulled around me.

> I was there, briefly.

> My supervisor at work found out about it less

> than a week before it was to happen, so she

> called and made arrangements with Jim. (I could

> not have done it.) I could only arrange to be

> there on the first day, on Sunday. I didn't

> have much opportunity to talk with other people,

> but wanted to know more, as I had been dx'd only

> a month before. So I went back on Tuesday night,

> after work. I managed to button-hole Dave, and

> we talked for a couple of hours, first outside,

> and when it got cooler, we came inside and stood

> talking at the first table, near the entrance.

I don't know what button-holing is, but I know Dave. :-)

> We didn't actually meet, but I think we did come

> within close proximity, if that was you who came

> over to ask Dave something. I think I remember

> a dark-colored sweat pants and shirt? I have

> wondered if that was you.

I'm trying to think of what I did on the first day.

I was trapped in New Jersey overnight (I think the state of New Jersey

has something against me).

I came to the airport.

I somehow got to the motel.

I sat outside waiting for Muskie.

Muskie got there.

Some other people got there.

That must have been the day before the first day because we slept in

the motel. Those in the room with me got to know more about me,

causing one person to take what seemed like a dislike to me and the

other to get closer.

The next day -- *that* must have been the first day -- we picked up F8.

We got to the camp.

I somehow ended up sitting at the table in the cafeteria.

Kim and had a screaming match. I knew they were Kim and

because they screamed each others' names at each other. Kim has

fluffy yellow hair and stands out in body language the least of anyone

I've seen at Autreat. has gold-blond-brown straight shiny hair

and bends slightly when he walks.

I sat there staring straight ahead afraid to move as other people came

in. I was afraid they were judging me. (I was not even entirely out

of the psych system at that point. *Everyone* in my life judged me.)

I found out later they judged from my body language that I was

autistic. I wasn't sure to be glad they didn't think other things of

me or upset that they were watching me.

Kim tried to get me to work a button-making machine. Dismal failure.

A thin skittery woman with brown curly hair came in and started pacing

around the table I was sitting at saying, " That's not normal, that's

not normal, " in a high-pitched thin voice.

I don't remember most of the day. Just plain don't remember it at

all. I remember lots of starting at nothing and I think I memorized

most of the cafeteria. The only thing I can remember starts that

night. The rest is probably lost somewhere in a shutdown-haze in my

memory banks. I remember something about going to Mc's and

upsetting someone (from Autreat) with my body language.

I would probably not have been approaching Dave (I did not really

approach anyone my entire time there), and I was definitely not

wearing sweats.

At that time in my life, I probably would have been wearing black

trousers, who knows what kind of shirt, and a belt with several

pouches dangling from it (that much I can gather from the only picture

I have of me there). I had a gigantic grey and blue corduroy cloak I

was doing my best to hide in much of the time. I was short, very thin

(undernourished at that point), had thick straightish uncombed brown

hair going down to my shoulders, and wore glasses. Unless I'm

mistaken, the glasses I wore the first day were small silverish-rimmed

glasses. After that, I wore my Irlens, which looked like small

sunglasses.

I don't know what my mannerisms were, but I was scared, so I may have

looked scared (not that that would be a distinguishing feature at

Autreat necessarily). I froze in place a lot (Autreat was where I

learned why). I may have been skittish, although again that's not a

distinguishing feature. I was told by one person that my failure to

function well there was no surprise to anyone given how I looked, and

I still don't know what *that* meant.

I don't know if any of that would tell you whether you saw me or not,

but that's what I remember. I would have been probably in the

cafeteria a good deal of the day, but I don't really know where I was.

I now also remember sitting outside a cabin next to Muskie, and

someone talking to her about something, and I was feeling

conversationally inadequate. But I don't really know where I was a

lot of that day.

[Guest guest]

wrote:

> I don't know what button-holing is, but I know Dave. :-)

I was aware when I wrote it that some people may not be

familiar with that phrase. It means I managed to engage

him in conversation, and kept his attention. As if I had

grabbed him by the shirt and held it.

> I'm trying to think of what I did on the first day.

The time I was referring to would have been on Tuesday

evening, when I returned. Got there at about 7 PM, and

left at 9. This would have been shortly before 9 PM.

> Kim and had a screaming match. I knew they were

> Kim and because they screamed each others' names

> at each other.

I certainly remember that! Kim had asked to help

finish collating some material for the pass out folders,

but he had some difficulty with it. I was the guy who

volunteered to take over the job after stalked off.

> Kim has fluffy yellow hair and stands out in body

> language the least of anyone I've seen at Autreat.

She " stood out " to me, because she closely resembles a

cousin of mine.

> I would probably not have been approaching Dave (I did

> not really approach anyone my entire time there), and I

> was definitely not wearing sweats.

It may have been someone else, but I could be wrong about

the sweatsuit outfit. Other times when you have described

yourself, it sounded that you might have been that person

who came up to us to ask Dave a question. Now that you

know that it was the last night of that Autreat, might it

have been you? (There's no big deal about it, I just

thought that I might have seen you then.)

> I now also remember sitting outside a cabin next to

> Muskie, and someone talking to her about something,

> and I was feeling conversationally inadequate.

The very next year, Muskie had her own screaming match

with Kim, because she had really been insulted by someone

else, over cabin accommodations. She wasn't mad at Kim,

just venting her rightful anger, and the guilty person

had wisely left the scene. Autreat - always exciting...

Clay

[Guest guest]

> > I don't know what button-holing is, but I know Dave. :-)

> I was aware when I wrote it that some people may not be

> familiar with that phrase. It means I managed to engage

> him in conversation, and kept his attention. As if I had

> grabbed him by the shirt and held it.

Ah.

Dave is pretty good at giving undivided conversational attention, I

did notice.

> > I'm trying to think of what I did on the first day.

> The time I was referring to would have been on Tuesday

> evening, when I returned. Got there at about 7 PM, and

> left at 9. This would have been shortly before 9 PM.

I don't know days of the week in reference to this.

> > Kim and had a screaming match. I knew they were

> > Kim and because they screamed each others' names

> > at each other.

> I certainly remember that! Kim had asked to help

> finish collating some material for the pass out folders,

> but he had some difficulty with it. I was the guy who

> volunteered to take over the job after stalked off.

Wait -- how many screaming matches did they have? The one I recall

was in morning or afternoon. I was sitting at the table, facing them,

by the entrance. (The same table that had a lot of materials on it.

I was facing the bulletin board that they were standing by, screaming.

I must have only caught the tail end because I remember yelling

" KIM!!! " and Kim yelling " JA-RED!!! " and one or the other of them

stalking off. I don't remember a person volunteering to help them,

but I was also pretty out of it.)

> > Kim has fluffy yellow hair and stands out in body

> > language the least of anyone I've seen at Autreat.

> She " stood out " to me, because she closely resembles a

> cousin of mine.

She almost seemed to me to blend into the woodwork. Hmm.

> > I would probably not have been approaching Dave (I did

> > not really approach anyone my entire time there), and I

> > was definitely not wearing sweats.

> It may have been someone else, but I could be wrong about

> the sweatsuit outfit. Other times when you have described

> yourself, it sounded that you might have been that person

> who came up to us to ask Dave a question. Now that you

> know that it was the last night of that Autreat, might it

> have been you? (There's no big deal about it, I just

> thought that I might have seen you then.)

The *last* night of Autreat?

I thought you said the first. (Which was when the only screaming

match I remember between Kim and happened. But then given Kim's

griping afterwards, those may have been a regular occurrence.)

The *last* night of Autreat, I was a complete wreck.

Various stuff happened.

I somehow ended up with *really* bad motor problems and no clue what

they were. (I had been taught this was something I " chose " to do and

was desperately fighting to " choose not to " do it.) I was lying on

the lawn in front, with Kim (who had, the *first* night of Autreat,

appointed herself my 'watcher', which wasn't something I particularly

liked all the time but I couldn't do much about it and I did need

watching) standing over me. She seemed rather amused because I kept

trying to get out of one position, freezing in another, and rolling

around on the grass.

She told me, " There's an article J8 has that you need to read. It

explains this. "

Then she told me she was going to go talk to him about it. I assumed

immediately.

I ended up next to the bench in front of the cafeteria talking to

Dave. I don't know how Dave got there. He got some odd impressions

about why I was overloaded, apparently by comparison to F8. But it

was one of the more enjoyable conversations, even if I barely

understood a word of it. It's interesting to watch his face move around.

Then I ended up *in* the cafeteria sitting quite some distance away

from a cluster of people who were telling stories. Kim was among

them. So was J8. Kim was showing no sign of asking J8 for the

article, and I had no clue what was happening. I was also rapidly

getting overloaded, added to by the fact that an NT was in the room

who had been judging me harshly the entire conference *and* who

considered herself personally responsible for me for reasons I could

not figure out (I would've been happy if she'd just ignore me, and for

months she blamed me for going there at all because of her sense of

responsibility).

Eventually I figured out how to move closer to the group of people. I

sat across from Kim.

I was really on the point of losing it, and ran out the door. Then

felt horrid and ran back in the door. Then sat down.

Could not get my voice to be anywhere except either a whisper or a

shout. Screamed. This didn't go over well for the obvious reasons

about screaming in a room full of autistics.

*Still* hadn't noticed that other people had even noticed I was

overloaded.

Remembered there was something or other I supposedly needed from J8.

Wrote a note to Kim saying I had no clue how to ask for this thing.

She handed the note to J8, who misinterpreted it and wrote back a

response that could have been useful in another social situation but

not that one.

I sat there, overloaded, shook, and tried not to look overloaded.

Then someone else ended up shutting down, and J8 went past.

I panicked for a couple reasons -- I knew I was supposed to ask J8

something but was too overloaded to remember what, and I knew that

being the second person to overload is worse than being the first (in

institutional settings), and realized I'd blown it in that sense. I

babbled something about needing something but not remembering what.

I left. Don't remember how. (I don't remember how a lot of things

happened.)

I wandered all over the place.

Then I went into my cabin and tried to calm down. Ended up crying,

screaming, and bodyslamming the wall, with no clue why or what was

going on. (Note that at this point I'd been trained to disregard

overload.) I knew that I couldn't stop crying. I didn't know why. I

did at *that* point start seeking people out (because that's actually

what I was forcibly trained to do in the event of overload, because

trying to go someplace quiet was " psychotic withdrawal " , and that

training was still well-ingrained), but I was very circumspect about it.

In my circumspectness, I ended up on a hill with the NT, and ,

and some male adult I don't know the name of. The NT was not happy to

see me, but I didn't realize *how* unhappy. I somehow ended up in her

cabin. Muskie was there. So was the NT's son. I screamed. Her son

covered his ears. She basically accused me of hurting her son

(earlier, when her son had screamed and someone else had covered their

ears, she'd taken the ear-covering as an insult). Muskie dragged me

out of there and down to my cabin, where she stayed with me in order

to keep me separate from the NT.

I started getting a migraine.

Muskie and I went down to the bathroom. We were then invited into the

infirmary where a couple people were staying. I sat there terrified

and shutting down. Another person sat there terrified and shutting

down. Muskie and J8 carried on the main bulk of the conversation.

Then Muskie and I went back up to the cabin and I fell asleep

eventually. But it was a very long night.

On that night, though, my impression is (from others' descriptions)

that if you did see me and were at all up to noticing people, you

would have noticed, even if you didn't know who I was.

If you want, I can send you pictures of me the following morning in an

offlist email, and you can see if those are familiar.

> > I now also remember sitting outside a cabin next to

> > Muskie, and someone talking to her about something,

> > and I was feeling conversationally inadequate.

> The very next year, Muskie had her own screaming match

> with Kim, because she had really been insulted by someone

> else, over cabin accommodations. She wasn't mad at Kim,

> just venting her rightful anger, and the guilty person

> had wisely left the scene. Autreat - always exciting...

Yeah. I heard about that one from both Muskie and another friend who

was there. Apparently there were subsequently some serious debates

about whether ramped cabin access should be granted to people with

mobility impairments who used cuss words or whether they should wait

until the person showed " proper communication skills " . (Given what

was going on, I'm actually impressed with Muskie's show of restraint.

I wouldn't have done so well. But then, that's why I didn't go that

year. Or subsequent years.)

[Guest guest]

<< i had been trying to figure out a way to get to autreat. not any

more. it sounds appalling. if anyone screamed at me i would leave.

thx for this information. >>

While there are a lot of legitimate reasons to not go to Autreat in

particular, I'd suggest that if you don't want to hear screaming, you

not hang out *ever* in a large group of autistic people, at least not

ones who have that particular reaction to overload or the inability to

communicate. Which is a large chunk of autistic people you'll have to

avoid.