RE: Re: Is Asperger's Truly on the Autism Spectrum?

[Guest guest]

> As a child of 4 or 5, I developed a theory, (which I later learned was

> called " solipsism " ), which served to explain how truly different I felt.

> I knew that *I* was real, in mind and body, but suspected that every-

> one else, my parents, older sisters, other children, etc., were merely

> figments of my imagination! I tried explaining this theory one night

> to one of my sisters while she was washing me up to get ready for

> bed, (my mother had given up on that nightly chore, because I had

> fought so fiercely against her putting Ivory soap in my eyes, nose,

> and mouth), and this sister became very indignant at the very idea.

> How dare I put myself at the center of the Universe, and suppose

> that everyone else was there solely for my entertainment, and could

> be in or out of my world, as I chose?

Hmm...at the age you were dallying with existential philosophy, I was

intuitively grasping math concepts. I worked out a way to calculate the

time it would take to travel a given distance at a given speed. It was a

system somewhat akin to ratios, but I hadn't learned anything about them

yet, and I didn't know about multiplication or division.

[Guest guest]

June wrote:

> ** Same for me. <wild guess> Maybe people who have problems with face

> recognition are non-visual thinkers.

I don't think that's it. I have a very good visual memory. There is a

test of visual memory and perception called the Rey-Osterreith Complex

Figure. It is supposed to be difficult to remember in detail visually,

and is used as a test of visual memory. The idea is that you draw it

once, then stop looking at it and draw it from memory at some point later.

I found the image on the net and did this. I waited a while (I can't

recall how long, but it was probably half an hour to an hour), drew it

again from memory, with only one or two minor mistakes. Without drawing

it again, I was able to recall the entire thing perfectly 24 hours

later... and a month after that, and so on. It is permanently stored in

my mind; I can see it in my head even now.

I was asked to do this test as a part of the autism research in which I

participated in Pittsburgh, and I told the tester that I had done the

test before, and that I had made a few minor mistakes when I recalled

it. Of course, when I drew it again for the tester, I did it

perfectly. She was pretty amazed, even though I told her I had seen the

image a year or so prior, and was thus at an advantage compared to

someone that had never seen the image before at all. She went on and on

about how amazing that was. I don't really see it as so, but it would

appear, given that she does a lot of testing with that test and others,

that I performed above average.

That said, I have a hard time recognizing faces. I'm not wholly unable

to recognize people; there are a great number of cues about a person's

appearance... dress, hair, body build, gait, context, voice tone. If

there is nothing distinctive to remember about the person ( " she's the

one with the white streak in her brown hair, " etc), I tend to not

recognize the person. However, most people are within context to the

point that it is not hard to determine who they are. At the plasma

center, there are only a certain number of people; while I have confused

two fairly dissimilar looking females and two other dissimilar looking

males there, I know them all visually now; there are only so many people

there, and I know what details to look for to discern who they are.

If you took them out of their lab coats and put them in a Wal-Mart,

though, I would probably not know who they were. In the proper context,

it is multiple choice; there are only so many people that a given person

might be, and it is not that hard to figure out which one it is. Out of

context, it is like fill in the blank, and that usually puts me at a loss.

Thus, it does not appear that strong visual pattern recognition and

memory means that a person will be able to readily recognize others.

Objects are constant in their appearance and dimension; they do not

change their clothes, hair styles, and shape (facial expressions). In

fact, I wonder if strong visual ability and a tendency toward seeing

detail (and missing the big picture) does not contribute to

prosopagnosia in spectrum people. Small differences in detail, like

facial expession or hair color, do not change the big picture of what a

person looks like that much, but to someone that sees a person as a

series of details rather than a holistic singular image, a few changed

details change the whole picture.

[Guest guest]

Clay wrote:

>(And to ), I have absolutely no ability with Math.

>In 1st grade, I had to invent a " count the dots " system

>to get by in adding! I used that system all through

>school, and still do sometimes. My checkbook is a

>dotty mess.

I invented that system for myself, too, out of necessity,

and still use it. Over time (five decades of time), I've

gradually been able to add more " sums " to my memory store,

so that I sometimes don't need to " count the dots " to add

(except when I'm tired). I have preferences amoung nubmers

and tend to remember them better. For example, I like 7

and 5, so learning " 7 plus 5 equals 12 " was easier (came

earlier) for me thatn some other sums. " Earlier " meaning

in my 20s. Except, as I said, when I'm tired. :-/

Oh, I learned a while ago on the OASIS list (not the

bulletin board connected to the web site, but the real

OASIS list) that teachers now teach the dots system to

kids who need it. No doubt some " pedagogy specialist "

is taking credit for inventing it.

Jane

[Guest guest]

Message: 6

Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 09:04:09 -0000

Subject: Re: Is Asperger's Truly on the Autism Spectrum?

> > I don't know what button-holing is, but I know Dave. :-)

> I was aware when I wrote it that some people may not be

> familiar with that phrase. It means I managed to engage

> him in conversation, and kept his attention. As if I had

> grabbed him by the shirt and held it.

Ah.

Dave is pretty good at giving undivided conversational attention, I

did notice.

> > I'm trying to think of what I did on the first day.

> The time I was referring to would have been on Tuesday

> evening, when I returned. Got there at about 7 PM, and

> left at 9. This would have been shortly before 9 PM.

I don't know days of the week in reference to this.

> > Kim and had a screaming match. I knew they were

> > Kim and because they screamed each others' names

> > at each other.

> I certainly remember that! Kim had asked to help

> finish collating some material for the pass out folders,

> but he had some difficulty with it. I was the guy who

> volunteered to take over the job after stalked off.

Wait -- how many screaming matches did they have? The one I recall

was in morning or afternoon. I was sitting at the table, facing them,

by the entrance. (The same table that had a lot of materials on it.

I was facing the bulletin board that they were standing by, screaming.

I must have only caught the tail end because I remember yelling

" KIM!!! " and Kim yelling " JA-RED!!! " and one or the other of them

stalking off. I don't remember a person volunteering to help them,

but I was also pretty out of it.)

> > Kim has fluffy yellow hair and stands out in body

> > language the least of anyone I've seen at Autreat.

> She " stood out " to me, because she closely resembles a

> cousin of mine.

She almost seemed to me to blend into the woodwork. Hmm.

> > I would probably not have been approaching Dave (I did

> > not really approach anyone my entire time there), and I

> > was definitely not wearing sweats.

> It may have been someone else, but I could be wrong about

> the sweatsuit outfit. Other times when you have described

> yourself, it sounded that you might have been that person

> who came up to us to ask Dave a question. Now that you

> know that it was the last night of that Autreat, might it

> have been you? (There's no big deal about it, I just

> thought that I might have seen you then.)

The *last* night of Autreat?

I thought you said the first. (Which was when the only screaming

match I remember between Kim and happened. But then given Kim's

griping afterwards, those may have been a regular occurrence.)

The *last* night of Autreat, I was a complete wreck.

Various stuff happened.

I somehow ended up with *really* bad motor problems and no clue what

they were. (I had been taught this was something I " chose " to do and

was desperately fighting to " choose not to " do it.) I was lying on

the lawn in front, with Kim (who had, the *first* night of Autreat,

appointed herself my 'watcher', which wasn't something I particularly

liked all the time but I couldn't do much about it and I did need

watching) standing over me. She seemed rather amused because I kept

trying to get out of one position, freezing in another, and rolling

around on the grass.

She told me, " There's an article J8 has that you need to read. It

explains this. "

Then she told me she was going to go talk to him about it. I assumed

immediately.

I ended up next to the bench in front of the cafeteria talking to

Dave. I don't know how Dave got there. He got some odd impressions

about why I was overloaded, apparently by comparison to F8. But it

was one of the more enjoyable conversations, even if I barely

understood a word of it. It's interesting to watch his face move around.

Then I ended up *in* the cafeteria sitting quite some distance away

from a cluster of people who were telling stories. Kim was among

them. So was J8. Kim was showing no sign of asking J8 for the

article, and I had no clue what was happening. I was also rapidly

getting overloaded, added to by the fact that an NT was in the room

who had been judging me harshly the entire conference *and* who

considered herself personally responsible for me for reasons I could

not figure out (I would've been happy if she'd just ignore me, and for

months she blamed me for going there at all because of her sense of

responsibility).

Eventually I figured out how to move closer to the group of people. I

sat across from Kim.

I was really on the point of losing it, and ran out the door. Then

felt horrid and ran back in the door. Then sat down.

Could not get my voice to be anywhere except either a whisper or a

shout. Screamed. This didn't go over well for the obvious reasons

about screaming in a room full of autistics.

*Still* hadn't noticed that other people had even noticed I was

overloaded.

Remembered there was something or other I supposedly needed from J8.

Wrote a note to Kim saying I had no clue how to ask for this thing.

She handed the note to J8, who misinterpreted it and wrote back a

response that could have been useful in another social situation but

not that one.

I sat there, overloaded, shook, and tried not to look overloaded.

Then someone else ended up shutting down, and J8 went past.

I panicked for a couple reasons -- I knew I was supposed to ask J8

something but was too overloaded to remember what, and I knew that

being the second person to overload is worse than being the first (in

institutional settings), and realized I'd blown it in that sense. I

babbled something about needing something but not remembering what.

I left. Don't remember how. (I don't remember how a lot of things

happened.)

I wandered all over the place.

Then I went into my cabin and tried to calm down. Ended up crying,

screaming, and bodyslamming the wall, with no clue why or what was

going on. (Note that at this point I'd been trained to disregard

overload.) I knew that I couldn't stop crying. I didn't know why. I

did at *that* point start seeking people out (because that's actually

what I was forcibly trained to do in the event of overload, because

trying to go someplace quiet was " psychotic withdrawal " , and that

training was still well-ingrained), but I was very circumspect about it.

In my circumspectness, I ended up on a hill with the NT, and ,

and some male adult I don't know the name of. The NT was not happy to

see me, but I didn't realize *how* unhappy. I somehow ended up in her

cabin. Muskie was there. So was the NT's son. I screamed. Her son

covered his ears. She basically accused me of hurting her son

(earlier, when her son had screamed and someone else had covered their

ears, she'd taken the ear-covering as an insult). Muskie dragged me

out of there and down to my cabin, where she stayed with me in order

to keep me separate from the NT.

I started getting a migraine.

Muskie and I went down to the bathroom. We were then invited into the

infirmary where a couple people were staying. I sat there terrified

and shutting down. Another person sat there terrified and shutting

down. Muskie and J8 carried on the main bulk of the conversation.

Then Muskie and I went back up to the cabin and I fell asleep

eventually. But it was a very long night.

On that night, though, my impression is (from others' descriptions)

that if you did see me and were at all up to noticing people, you

would have noticed, even if you didn't know who I was.

If you want, I can send you pictures of me the following morning in an

offlist email, and you can see if those are familiar.

> > I now also remember sitting outside a cabin next to

> > Muskie, and someone talking to her about something,

> > and I was feeling conversationally inadequate.

> The very next year, Muskie had her own screaming match

> with Kim, because she had really been insulted by someone

> else, over cabin accommodations. She wasn't mad at Kim,

> just venting her rightful anger, and the guilty person

> had wisely left the scene. Autreat - always exciting...

Yeah. I heard about that one from both Muskie and another friend who

was there. Apparently there were subsequently some serious debates

about whether ramped cabin access should be granted to people with

mobility impairments who used cuss words or whether they should wait

until the person showed " proper communication skills " . (Given what

was going on, I'm actually impressed with Muskie's show of restraint.

I wouldn't have done so well. But then, that's why I didn't go that

year. Or subsequent years.)

i had been trying to figure out a way to get to autreat. not any more. it

sounds appalling. if anyone screamed at me i would leave. thx for this

information.

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[Guest guest]

Please forgive me if I attempt to answer the query in the subject line.

IMHO it makes more sense to widen the spectrum to encompass the whole of

humanity. As human beings evolved from more primitive hominids over eons,

the part of our brain that has increased most in size has been the frontal

cortex, the part that is allegedly differently wired in aspies, responsible

for processing information we gather from other people and from the

environment. Crucial to the development of the human species is the ability

to mimic other people's behaviour and gauge whose behaviour is worth

imitating. Unlike in many other species, we don't simply copy actions, but

analyse and imitate behavioural patterns. Nonverbal communication is a key

way of gauging other people's feelings about oneself. Another distinguishing

trait is our sense of self or our theory of mind. I''ve always had a theory

of mind and have long known that others have feelings and perceptions

different to my own, but my theory of mind differs from that of most people,

whom we'd class as neurotypical.

To view aspies as some neurological aberration is a gross insult. Many

groups set up to help aspies merely teach them to emulate NTs and learn to

cope with their social handicap. Yet I see speaking one's mind as a positive

advantage. Why should we focus on what others want to hear rather the

message we wish to convey? Why should we learn the art of self-deception?

I think aspies are just at one end of neurological continuum, a

meme-processing spectrum, and we find it harder to fit into an increasingly

deceptive society, where everyone claims to care, but really either take

care of number one or grovel up to NT superheroes. Apparently many aspies

are not immune to NT-conditioning and billions of NTs are victims of a

ruling elite who use subtle propaganda and economic pressure to put everyone

in their place.

So yes we are on the spectrum, but withdrawn auties (please help me with a

more polite term) are only a small section of that spectrum. Also the whole

notion of autism may soon be superseded. Victims of acquired brain damage

may manifest many aspie-like behavioural traits, but brain scans do not

reveal damage in aspie brains. The real question should be why otherwise

healthy human beings find it so hard to cope? A brief look at the rapid

technological and social changes over the last century may help us hone in

on the truth. Subtle genetic variations may lead to signficant differences

in an extremely socially competitive world.

Neil

[Guest guest]

Neil Gardner wrote:

> Apparently many aspies are not immune to NT-conditioning

I think this statement may also be read as " Apparently many aspies do

not agree with Neil Gardner. " It is incorrect to assume, as you did in

the previous discussion about governor-elect Schwarzenegger, which is

what I think you are referencing here, that all people that support a

given candidate do so because of NT conditioning or any other reason

that presupposes a lack of conscious thought. Not everyone that thinks

agrees with you. I would have supported my cat if he had a chance of

beating Gray in the recall election.

[Guest guest]

wrote:

>...I had a gigantic grey and blue corduroy cloak I

>was doing my best to hide in much of the time.

When I was 16 or 17, I made myself a cloak -- got a big

piece of camel-colored material and put a hole in it for

my head. On the back I embroidered some lines from

Shinkichi Takahashi's poem " The Position of the Sparrow " :

" The sparrow stirs,

The universe moves slightly. "

That cloak went with me when I " went away to college "

(an experiment that lasted almost 9 months because I

didn't know how to end it) and was where I hid when I

had to leave my room.

Jane

[Guest guest]

>...Victims of acquired brain damage

>may manifest many aspie-like behavioural traits, but brain scans do not

>reveal damage in aspie brains.

Not damage, no, but differences do show up. I'm not sure

about " brain scans " (not sure what type of scan you mean,

anyway), but fMRIs and autopsies both reveal differenced

in brain function and structure.

Jane

[Guest guest]

I had the same feeling for the majority of my life. I always

imagined that I was asleep somewhere and dreaming everything and

everyone.

There was an episode of " Star Trek: Voyager " where they were

asleep and dreaming and the only way they knew it was because

they kept seeing the Earth's moon through the windows. After I

saw that I realized that I wasn't the only one who had ever

thought that way.

I am very good at remembering people's names and faces if I knew

them very well. I remembered a girl that I was in first grade

with when I saw her in a store a few years ago. I went up to her

and said hello, and she had no clue who I was. On the other hand,

it takes me quite awhile to learn peoples faces and names, so

once I get it I keep it forever. My dentist came up to me and

said hello once while I was in the grocery store and had no idea

who he was. When I went to my next dental appointment, it was an

" a-ha " moment for me.

Louis

In my house, " normal " is only a setting on the dryer.

From: adamsCLAYADAMS@...

As a child of 4 or 5, I developed a theory, (which I later

learned was

called " solipsism " ), which served to explain how truly

different I felt.

I knew that *I* was real, in mind and body, but suspected that

every-

one else, my parents, older sisters, other children, etc., were

merely

figments of my imagination! I tried explaining this theory one

night

to one of my sisters while she was washing me up to get ready

for

bed, (my mother had given up on that nightly chore, because I

had

fought so fiercely against her putting Ivory soap in my eyes,

nose,

and mouth), and this sister became very indignant at the very

idea.

How dare I put myself at the center of the Universe, and

suppose

that everyone else was there solely for my entertainment, and

could

be in or out of my world, as I chose?

I've always had a special facility with

faces. I could always recognize faces, and never forgot a

face. And

I can extrapolate differences in faces over time. That may not

have

been clear. If 50 people, between the ages of 20 and 50

brought to

Autreat for instance, pictures of themselves taken when they

were 10,

and put all those pictures in a basket, I could tell which

pictures be-

longed to whom, and deliver each picture back to its owner. I

believe

that, and would bet money on it. And I not only recognize and

remem-

ber faces, but I am able to read expressions, body language,

and vocal

inflections to a high degree of accuracy.

[Guest guest]

I did the dot thing, too, and that's how I taught my children to

add. Then one day I suddenly started noticing " tens in the ones

column " (numbers that add up to ten) and started moving them

over, and then I noticed " hundreds in the tens column " and

started moving them over, and so on. I can figure my change in

the store now before the computer tells the clerk what it is. I

tried to show my kids how to do it and they looked at me like I

had grown a third head, so I quit trying to explain it to them.

Hopefully they will figure it out sooner than I did.

Louis

In my house, " normal " is only a setting on the dryer.

From: Jane Meyerding

Clay wrote:

>(And to ), I have absolutely no ability with Math.

>In 1st grade, I had to invent a " count the dots " system

>to get by in adding! I used that system all through

>school, and still do sometimes. My checkbook is a

>dotty mess.

I invented that system for myself, too, out of necessity,

and still use it. Over time (five decades of time), I've

gradually been able to add more " sums " to my memory store,

so that I sometimes don't need to " count the dots " to add

(except when I'm tired). I have preferences amoung nubmers

and tend to remember them better. For example, I like 7

and 5, so learning " 7 plus 5 equals 12 " was easier (came

earlier) for me thatn some other sums. " Earlier " meaning

in my 20s. Except, as I said, when I'm tired. :-/

Oh, I learned a while ago on the OASIS list (not the

bulletin board connected to the web site, but the real

OASIS list) that teachers now teach the dots system to

kids who need it. No doubt some " pedagogy specialist "

is taking credit for inventing it.

Jane

[Guest guest]

bring earplugs?

Ride the Music

AndyTiedye

alfamanda wrote:

>

>

><< i had been trying to figure out a way to get to autreat. not any

>more. it sounds appalling. if anyone screamed at me i would leave.

>thx for this information. >>

>

>While there are a lot of legitimate reasons to not go to Autreat in

>particular, I'd suggest that if you don't want to hear screaming, you

>not hang out *ever* in a large group of autistic people, at least not

>ones who have that particular reaction to overload or the inability to

>communicate. Which is a large chunk of autistic people you'll have to

>avoid.

>

>

>

>

>