Guest guest Posted August 19, 2003 Report Share Posted August 19, 2003 On Tuesday, August 19, 2003 9:26 -0500 Doug O'Neal wrote: >> >> I visualize a society in which the organizing principle around which >> kids learn to interact is not sports or combat, but dance. >> >> Ride the Music! > > Oh for gods' sake. You sound like one of my flamin'-ass liberal > colleagues from Pagan or Unitarian-Universalist communities, the kind who > make ME look right-wing (and that's hard to do). I've stayed put while the country has been dragged further and further to the right. So now I'm a flaming leftist. > Sports, like anything, have a good side and a bad side -- or, speaking > more precisely, ways that they can be used with good and not-so-good > results. I have not proposed to do away with sports, only that they should not occupy the central position that they do in teaching social skills. > Participating on a sports team is often the first a kid learns that > his/her actions affect other people. That is hard to imagine. Surely most kids would pick that up from one-on-one interaction first, and those who don't won't get it from sports. What team sports do is to put our deficits on display, without offering us anything to help us alleviate them. > If sportsmanship is emphasized by > the adult coaches, as it should absolutely be, the kids learn that in > life it's good to respect one's opponents and to play by the rules. If the coaches would at least respect their own players, including the ones without any athletic ability, that would have been a good start. I got as much crap from the coaches and gym teachers as I did from teammates. > If they lose a game once in a while, they learn that not everything they do > in life is going to meet with success (a message to kids sorely lacking > in today's society, with many parents who think their kids should have > everything without doing a darn bit of work for it). That is a lesson that people on the spectrum are taught every day. We all became well-acquainted with failure at an early age. When we come in dead last every time, that tends to make all those platitudes about the value of hard work sound rather hollow. If anything, there seemed to be an inverse relationship between level of effort and success, since I was always at or near the top of my class academically with very little effort (until I got to MIT, when things suddenly got a lot more challenging). > Also, I think that > it's important, in many situations, to place goals of a group above the > attainment of individual glory (being an environmentalist and somewhat of > a socialist, I *would* think that) -- again, if done right, sports can > teach this to kids. It can, but activities that are not innately competitive can do it better. > Finally, sports is *not* combat: you don't (again, > if it's taught and done in the right way) try to beat up the other team > in a no-holds-barred, absolutist way. You instead try to score more > points *within* the rules. When it's over, you respect the other guys > and know that you shouldn't get too arrogant, because next time the > outcome might be different. People (including kids) do have aggressive > impulses; that's human nature. I certainly do, despite being mostly a > pacifist. If these can be channeled into sports and competition where > sportsmanship and the rules are respected, IMO, that's a very good thing. I'm not denying that, but should these impulses be the driving factor in our interactions with other people? > As for dance, I fail to see how it would solve one of the negative things > about kids' sports -- teasing etc. (even bullying) of the kid who's > clumsy or less able to do it right. It isn't a competition, and there isn't any " right " or " wrong " way to do it. This would look more like a rave than a school dance or prom or nightclub thing. > Then, there are people (like me) who are NO good at dancing, > never have been, still aren't, never have enjoyed it. Dancing is so open-ended a category that when you say you are no good at it, I am not sure exactly what you mean. > On the other hand, I liked playing sports as a kid. As an > (undiagnosed) Aspie kid who didn't socialize much, youth baseball was one > of the only places I did interact with other kids, You obviously did not have any deficits in coordination or reaction time if you could actually hit a baseball. > and watching sports on > TV was one of the only ways I learned about the larger world out there. aaack! > There are wonderful things about sports, from the youngest ages right up > to the Olympic Games. So I have been told on many occasions. Never experienced any of the supposed benefits of participation, and not for lack of trying. ====== I posted this on another list a while ago: ------ If a kid wants to do sports, by all means let him. But, too often it isn't about what the kid wants. Sports are supposed to show the value of hard work and discipline, build self-esteem, leadership, blah, blah, blah. So parents, teachers, etc., try to make the kids' entire social environment revolve around sports if they can. For the natural athletes, this may even work. It has the opposite effects on those of minimal athletic ability -- a category that includes many clumsy Aspies. ? It demonstrates that hard work and discipline may get you absolutely nowhere. All one's efforts may be so berift of result as to be invisible. And all the " coaches " ever do is berate us for " not trying hard enough " . ? Whatever benefits there could possibly be to participating in sports only apply when you actually get to play. There is no benefit whatsoever to " warming the bench " . It merely widens the gulf. ? It leaves us even more alienated from our own bodies than we already were to begin with. ? It causes many to develop a deep distaste for physical activity and turn into couch potatoes. This may be the cause of some of the hyperactivity that is associated with Asperger's Syndrome. I am really twitchy/fidgety if I don't get a lot of exercise. Is anyone else like that? ? It has a really devastating effect on self-esteem. ? Because only the jocks get any chance to practice " leadership " during their teen years, the rest never get any chance to develop those skills until much later in life, if ever. This could explain a lot about what is wrong with the world. ? It encourages a mindset in which everything in life is competition. ? Since sports are the only social events for kids that are univerally blessed by parents and other authority figures, inability to perform adequately at them adds to the social isolation of many Aspies and perpetuates our lack of social skills. ====== Ride the Music AndyTiedye Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 19, 2003 Report Share Posted August 19, 2003 Hey Andy, I totally agree with you. I sucked at sports and was constantly made fun of, belittled, and the last one picked on a damn team. All they wanted me to do was sports, I suspect so they could have someone to pick on. If a team I was on lost, I was blamed for it. All it ever taught me was " you suck, nobody likes you, life is always unfair and you're a loser because you can't play volleyball! " Nowadays sports has NOTHING to do with instilling any sort of values except " WIN AT ALL COSTS!! DESTROY THE ENEMY! " Walsh had a show on Parental Rage at kids sports games, where parents blindly and irrationally start attacking coaches, other kids, other parents, etc, if their kid was losing, not playing, or if their team lost or they thought the coach made an " unfair " call. It's an epidemic, and according to the experts on the show it's everywhere and some little leagues have considered banning parents from games, it has gotten so bad- they really don't want to- and they are finding other ways to cope. But people have been maimed and killed- over a stupid game. Sports used to be about supposed healthy values, now its all about winning. Sports are a place where parents can re-live old glory through their kids, and find an excuse to unleash their rage at other people. In high school I was not forced into any sort of team, so I took dance. At first I hated it, but my teacher supported me, and the kids liked the music I brought in. The one moment for 5 seconds I was accepted and not dubbed a loser or a wacko. I liked dancing- and I still do- it's so much fun and nobody cares what you look like anyway. My favorite thing is the kickboxing- dance classes, at the gym, where they combine kickboxing moves with aerobics. It's great when I get to use the bag. I get all my energy out. If some kids are attracted to sports, that's fine as long as they fix the mess they are in (and they are). But forcing everyone to do it, ( I suspect so the NTs and sports fans feel more comfortable if everyone is doing it- pack mentality) is stupid and counter effective. What the hell is wrong with dancing? Is it too " sissy " for a boy to be dancing instead of playing ball- that's why he MUST play baseball? I don't think so. What's the name of that movie where the boy wants to dance ballet in England and his father hates him because of it? And he ends up being a top ballet dancer? I can't remember the name. Andy maybe you do? Jeanette Re: Dance? (Re: Bullying) On Tuesday, August 19, 2003 9:26 -0500 Doug O'Neal wrote: >> >> I visualize a society in which the organizing principle around which >> kids learn to interact is not sports or combat, but dance. >> >> Ride the Music! > > Oh for gods' sake. You sound like one of my flamin'-ass liberal > colleagues from Pagan or Unitarian-Universalist communities, the kind who > make ME look right-wing (and that's hard to do). I've stayed put while the country has been dragged further and further to the right. So now I'm a flaming leftist. > Sports, like anything, have a good side and a bad side -- or, speaking > more precisely, ways that they can be used with good and not-so-good > results. I have not proposed to do away with sports, only that they should not occupy the central position that they do in teaching social skills. > Participating on a sports team is often the first a kid learns that > his/her actions affect other people. That is hard to imagine. Surely most kids would pick that up from one-on-one interaction first, and those who don't won't get it from sports. What team sports do is to put our deficits on display, without offering us anything to help us alleviate them. > If sportsmanship is emphasized by > the adult coaches, as it should absolutely be, the kids learn that in > life it's good to respect one's opponents and to play by the rules. If the coaches would at least respect their own players, including the ones without any athletic ability, that would have been a good start. I got as much crap from the coaches and gym teachers as I did from teammates. > If they lose a game once in a while, they learn that not everything they do > in life is going to meet with success (a message to kids sorely lacking > in today's society, with many parents who think their kids should have > everything without doing a darn bit of work for it). That is a lesson that people on the spectrum are taught every day. We all became well-acquainted with failure at an early age. When we come in dead last every time, that tends to make all those platitudes about the value of hard work sound rather hollow. If anything, there seemed to be an inverse relationship between level of effort and success, since I was always at or near the top of my class academically with very little effort (until I got to MIT, when things suddenly got a lot more challenging). > Also, I think that > it's important, in many situations, to place goals of a group above the > attainment of individual glory (being an environmentalist and somewhat of > a socialist, I *would* think that) -- again, if done right, sports can > teach this to kids. It can, but activities that are not innately competitive can do it better. > Finally, sports is *not* combat: you don't (again, > if it's taught and done in the right way) try to beat up the other team > in a no-holds-barred, absolutist way. You instead try to score more > points *within* the rules. When it's over, you respect the other guys > and know that you shouldn't get too arrogant, because next time the > outcome might be different. People (including kids) do have aggressive > impulses; that's human nature. I certainly do, despite being mostly a > pacifist. If these can be channeled into sports and competition where > sportsmanship and the rules are respected, IMO, that's a very good thing. I'm not denying that, but should these impulses be the driving factor in our interactions with other people? > As for dance, I fail to see how it would solve one of the negative things > about kids' sports -- teasing etc. (even bullying) of the kid who's > clumsy or less able to do it right. It isn't a competition, and there isn't any " right " or " wrong " way to do it. This would look more like a rave than a school dance or prom or nightclub thing. > Then, there are people (like me) who are NO good at dancing, > never have been, still aren't, never have enjoyed it. Dancing is so open-ended a category that when you say you are no good at it, I am not sure exactly what you mean. > On the other hand, I liked playing sports as a kid. As an > (undiagnosed) Aspie kid who didn't socialize much, youth baseball was one > of the only places I did interact with other kids, You obviously did not have any deficits in coordination or reaction time if you could actually hit a baseball. > and watching sports on > TV was one of the only ways I learned about the larger world out there. aaack! > There are wonderful things about sports, from the youngest ages right up > to the Olympic Games. So I have been told on many occasions. Never experienced any of the supposed benefits of participation, and not for lack of trying. ====== I posted this on another list a while ago: ------ If a kid wants to do sports, by all means let him. But, too often it isn't about what the kid wants. Sports are supposed to show the value of hard work and discipline, build self-esteem, leadership, blah, blah, blah. So parents, teachers, etc., try to make the kids' entire social environment revolve around sports if they can. For the natural athletes, this may even work. It has the opposite effects on those of minimal athletic ability -- a category that includes many clumsy Aspies. ? It demonstrates that hard work and discipline may get you absolutely nowhere. All one's efforts may be so berift of result as to be invisible. And all the " coaches " ever do is berate us for " not trying hard enough " . ? Whatever benefits there could possibly be to participating in sports only apply when you actually get to play. There is no benefit whatsoever to " warming the bench " . It merely widens the gulf. ? It leaves us even more alienated from our own bodies than we already were to begin with. ? It causes many to develop a deep distaste for physical activity and turn into couch potatoes. This may be the cause of some of the hyperactivity that is associated with Asperger's Syndrome. I am really twitchy/fidgety if I don't get a lot of exercise. Is anyone else like that? ? It has a really devastating effect on self-esteem. ? Because only the jocks get any chance to practice " leadership " during their teen years, the rest never get any chance to develop those skills until much later in life, if ever. This could explain a lot about what is wrong with the world. ? It encourages a mindset in which everything in life is competition. ? Since sports are the only social events for kids that are univerally blessed by parents and other authority figures, inability to perform adequately at them adds to the social isolation of many Aspies and perpetuates our lack of social skills. ====== Ride the Music AndyTiedye Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 19, 2003 Report Share Posted August 19, 2003 Jeanette danced around singing: >What's the name of that movie where the boy wants to dance ballet in >England and his father hates him because of it? And he ends up being a >top ballet dancer? I can't remember the name. Andy maybe you do? Elliot. On the other side of things, girls shouldn't be forced into taking dance classes. My parents tried to use ballet and jazz classes to teach me to be more " feminine " and " graceful " -- it was not only a failure despite over a decade of several lessons per week, but I wound up with even lower self-esteem because the other girls ostracized me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 19, 2003 Report Share Posted August 19, 2003 I took “tumbling” and ballet, too. My parents thought I needed to be more graceful, and if I couldn’t be graceful that I should learn how to fall properly so as not to hurt myself! I was pretty good at the ballet until the instructor showed us a move where you jump onto the arm of the male dancer and curl into a ball over his arm. They brought in a big guy to catch us, and I was first. I destroyed him; he put his back out and ripped a shoulder tendon when he caught me. That was the end of my ballet lessons! LOL! Louis From: DeGraf On the other side of things, girls shouldn't be forced into taking dance classes. My parents tried to use ballet and jazz classes to teach me to be more " feminine " and " graceful " -- it was not only a failure despite over a decade of several lessons per week, but I wound up with even lower self-esteem because the other girls ostracized me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 19, 2003 Report Share Posted August 19, 2003 Hi Louise... Seems to have been a common experience for a lot of AS women... my mother put me in ballet from 5-7, I hated it. When I accidently knocked down two cardboard bushes during a production of Snow White (I was a dancing rabbit that was supposed to be hiding, popping out at the end of Snow White's solo), I think my parents realized it was a lost cause. To be a 7 year old suffering the wrath of Snow White is no fun! lol Nanne --- Louise Gainor wrote: > I took “tumbling” and ballet, too. My parents > thought I needed to > be more graceful, and if I couldn’t be graceful that > I should > learn how to fall properly so as not to hurt myself! > > I was pretty good at the ballet until the instructor > showed us a > move where you jump onto the arm of the male dancer > and curl into > a ball over his arm. They brought in a big guy to > catch us, and I > was first. I destroyed him; he put his back out and > ripped a > shoulder tendon when he caught me. That was the end > of my ballet > lessons! LOL! > > Louis > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 19, 2003 Report Share Posted August 19, 2003 Hi Louise... Seems to have been a common experience for a lot of AS women... my mother put me in ballet from 5-7, I hated it. When I accidently knocked down two cardboard bushes during a production of Snow White (I was a dancing rabbit that was supposed to be hiding, popping out at the end of Snow White's solo), I think my parents realized it was a lost cause. To be a 7 year old suffering the wrath of Snow White is no fun! lol Nanne --- Louise Gainor wrote: > I took “tumbling” and ballet, too. My parents > thought I needed to > be more graceful, and if I couldn’t be graceful that > I should > learn how to fall properly so as not to hurt myself! > > I was pretty good at the ballet until the instructor > showed us a > move where you jump onto the arm of the male dancer > and curl into > a ball over his arm. They brought in a big guy to > catch us, and I > was first. I destroyed him; he put his back out and > ripped a > shoulder tendon when he caught me. That was the end > of my ballet > lessons! LOL! > > Louis > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 19, 2003 Report Share Posted August 19, 2003 I take tumbling NOW, and I'm fairly good. I have trouble flipping and twisting at the same time, but I can flip all day (literally speaking...I can do 7 backward flips in a row without hands). All I need to do, it seems, is throw my body in the right direction. I'm pretty decent at jazz class too, for much the same reason, and Im especially good at leaps, probably because Im strong. Ballet, though, Im TERRIBLE at. We blamed it on my gymnast arch in my back, but also my inability to keep track of more than one or 2 seperate body parts at any given time certainly didnt help. KAssiane < RE: Dance? (Re: Bullying) I took " tumbling " and ballet, too. My parents thought I needed to be more graceful, and if I couldn't be graceful that I should learn how to fall properly so as not to hurt myself! I was pretty good at the ballet until the instructor showed us a move where you jump onto the arm of the male dancer and curl into a ball over his arm. They brought in a big guy to catch us, and I was first. I destroyed him; he put his back out and ripped a shoulder tendon when he caught me. That was the end of my ballet lessons! LOL! Louis From: DeGraf On the other side of things, girls shouldn't be forced into taking dance classes. My parents tried to use ballet and jazz classes to teach me to be more " feminine " and " graceful " -- it was not only a failure despite over a decade of several lessons per week, but I wound up with even lower self-esteem because the other girls ostracized me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 20, 2003 Report Share Posted August 20, 2003 > Not everyone is capable of your kind of dance. I for one have NO > improvisational skills under the BEST of circumstances, and a crowded > place with funky lights and loud music is NOT the best of circumstances > for me. And in my case, I'm well aware that techno/trance/house music actually paralyzes me and renders me incapable of volitional movement at times, sort of like auditory fluorescent lights. If I don't have to move, it's fine, but many times when it's come on in record stores, I've gripped the side of the display stands to keep from falling over or wandering in a weird kind of daze where afterwards I won't remember how I got there. -- " It is an uncomfortable truth, in social work, in government activity, and in charitable endeavours, that actions which are intended to help a certain group of people *may actually harm* them. " - Hershey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 20, 2003 Report Share Posted August 20, 2003 Re: Dance? (Re: Bullying) > > > Not everyone is capable of your kind of dance. I for one have NO > > improvisational skills under the BEST of circumstances, and a crowded > > place with funky lights and loud music is NOT the best of circumstances > > for me. > > And in my case, I'm well aware that techno/trance/house music actually > paralyzes me and renders me incapable of volitional movement at times, > sort of like auditory fluorescent lights. If I don't have to move, it's > fine, but many times when it's come on in record stores, I've gripped > the side of the display stands to keep from falling over or wandering in > a weird kind of daze where afterwards I won't remember how I got there. > > Think I share many of your sensory imtolerance. With a combination of strobe lights and fast-beat techo-trance I can get exceedingly irate.All I can think in such circumstances is: I want out. As a teen I once accompanied a sort of friend who happened to be girl to a Motorhead concert. After queing for 90 minutes and paying £6 (which in those days was a small fortune) I spent 2 minutes in the concert hall! Inebriated headbangers the lot of 'em. Of course, now they're probably PR execuitives or HR managers. The point is why subject yourself to such torture in the first place? Neil PHAD People with High Functioning Autism: http://www.phad-fife.org.uk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 21, 2003 Report Share Posted August 21, 2003 > > Re: Dance? (Re: Bullying) > > >> >>>Not everyone is capable of your kind of dance. I for one have NO >>>improvisational skills under the BEST of circumstances, and a >>>crowded >>>place with funky lights and loud music is NOT the best of >>>circumstances >>>for me. >> I hated discos until I was around 19. But up till then I was not really interested in Music at all. I used to have far more fun on the computer playing games. I think at 19 I was more like 10-11. The kind of music I like now is Rock Music, but not too heavy. The beat must match the singing and the singing must be auidable. I hate Rave cause it has no singing and is computer generated. I do not begrudge people who go there and even if they take drugs. Its up to them. I owe a lot to Rock Music in particular the fact that I met my Wife . I doubt I would of met her in a Trendy Club. Cause the music is always loud and you can't even talk. People have to shout in your ear and you just nod if you don't get it, least look a fool. Steve My Aspergers Groups http://www.geocities.com/chemerelite http://clix.to/chemer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 22, 2003 Report Share Posted August 22, 2003 >> >> Re: Dance? (Re: Bullying) >> >> >>> >>>>Not everyone is capable of your kind of dance. I for one have NO >>>>improvisational skills under the BEST of circumstances, and a >>>>crowded >>>>place with funky lights and loud music is NOT the best of >>>>circumstances >>>>for me. >>> > >I hated discos until I was around 19. But up till then I was not >really interested in Music at all. I used to have far more fun on >the computer playing games. I think at 19 I was more like 10-11. > >The kind of music I like now is Rock Music, but not too heavy. The >beat must match the singing and the singing must be auidable. I >hate >Rave cause it has no singing and is computer generated. I do not >begrudge people who go there and even if they take drugs. Its up to >them. > >I owe a lot to Rock Music in particular the fact that I met my Wife >. I doubt I would of met her in a Trendy Club. Cause the >music >is always loud and you can't even talk. People have to shout in >your >ear and you just nod if you don't get it, least look a fool. > >Steve > >My Aspergers Groups > >http://www.geocities.com/chemerelite >http://clix.to/chemer My Aspergers Groups http://www.geocities.com/chemerelite http://clix.to/chemer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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