RE: speaking of sexual harassment, etc.....

[Guest guest]

I agree wholeheartedly. My mother always told me never to get

myself into a situation I couldn’t get out of, and I never have.

I even have escape routes in my house.

Louis

From: Cerulean

One of my main gripes is that when piddly things

such as the kindegarten boy kissing the girl are

labeled 'sexual harassment', it takes away from the

seriousness of real sexual harrassment, in school, the

workplace, wherever.

Another gripe is that it assumes all girls/women

are weak helpless little things and all boys/men are

evil testosterone raging creatures. This is bullshit

as women can be sexually predatory creatures also.

In this mornings' paper, there's an article about a

19 year old who reported being raped after an early

morning 'party' in a motel room. She left at 2 a.m.

to go buy more alcohol, drank so much she passed out

and awoke with the guy on top of her.

No, nobody 'deserves' rape, but for God's sake

women have to learn to take some responsibility to not

put themselves in situations like this!

I despise the stupidity of some women as much as I

despise instances of real rape. (and I've been raped

before, so I know from experience of what I speak.)

Nanne

[Guest guest]

> Odd. To " despise " anyone for lack of common sense,

> when " lack of common sense " and " naivete " are two

> characteristics of autism.

>

> Not to mention the fact that some peoply may not have

> been taught or shown various aspects of the world.

> And/or may have had " bad role models " that led them

> to think it okay or even important to " be a good sport "

> or " don't be a wet blanket " (or simply, " drinking is

> the way to have a good time " ), somehow neglecting to

> add to the lesson: " Oh, and when you get raped as

> a result, it's your own fault. "

>

> I think there should be a lot more social education

> (as in the public campaigns against smoking, perhaps)

> to get across the point that it is never okay to take

> advantage of anyone's naivete or inebriation. No

> matter what genders are involved.

>

> Jane

Thank you Jane,

That was beautifully stated, and I totally agree. I always admire

your compassion and non-judgemental stance.

All the best,

Anne

[Guest guest]

Nanne wrote:

> I despise the stupidity of some women as much as I

>despise instances of real rape. (and I've been raped

>before, so I know from experience of what I speak.)

and Louis responded:

>I agree wholeheartedly. My mother always told me never to get

>myself into a situation I couldn’t get out of, and I never have.

>I even have escape routes in my house.

Odd. To " despise " anyone for lack of common sense,

when " lack of common sense " and " naivete " are two

characteristics of autism.

Not to mention the fact that some peoply may not have

been taught or shown various aspects of the world.

And/or may have had " bad role models " that led them

to think it okay or even important to " be a good sport "

or " don't be a wet blanket " (or simply, " drinking is

the way to have a good time " ), somehow neglecting to

add to the lesson: " Oh, and when you get raped as

a result, it's your own fault. "

I think there should be a lot more social education

(as in the public campaigns against smoking, perhaps)

to get across the point that it is never okay to take

advantage of anyone's naivete or inebriation. No

matter what genders are involved.

Jane

[Guest guest]

>Look, call me naive, or whatever- I just don't understand it. I

>can't picture it myself- how could any person put themselves through

>the nation wide humiliation, reputation damage, death threats, etc,

>for MONEY?

Um, yes, that's naive. People do things for money that you would

absolutely not believe, and I wouldn't put this past some people,

either. I don't understand why anyone would put themselves thru this

kind of thing just for money, but it *does* happen, more often than

you think. Read the papers.

>I would never do that to myself- falsely accuse someone of rape to

>get money. There's too many moral code breaches, loss of self

>respect, not to mention the damage it does to rape victims and the

>women's movement.

Neither would I. Money isn't worth it to me -- I just want to have

enough of it to keep myself sheltered, clothed, and fed, and to

occasionally enjoy some of the finer things in life such as fine

dining and a night at the theater. (I don't even own a car.)

However, lots of people are greedy and will go to great lengths for a

buck.

--Parrish

[Guest guest]

--- Jane Meyerding wrote:

> Not quite. I'm saying that we should be trying to

> find

> ways to resolve interpersonal conflicts that don't

> rely on exiling anyone from the social world where

> the

> conflict arose. In the case of Saporta, he seemed to

> be making a genuine contribution to the university,

> and

> I'd like to think that all those intelligent people

> could come up with a resolution that would allow him

> to continue being of use.

>

> Was there really no way for the women involved to be

> helped to feel safe if he stayed? Was there really

> no

> way to impress upon him the depth and significance

> of

> the pain he had caused? He clearly could not be

> allowed

> to continue the actions that violated other people's

> sense of self and safety. But I do believe he could

> have been helped to see why it was necessary for him

> to change his attitudes in that area (which is the

> best possible way to ensure that he would not

> re-offend).

>

> I think too often people choose to apply a rule

> rather than investing the time and effort required

> by a real solution. A university should be leading

> in a different direction (ideally).

-----------Now see, those approaches seem sane and

reasonable, and I agree university(s) should be

leading the way in those kind of approaches.

Unfortunately the bulk of iron-clad PC sexual

harassment policies originated there....but maybe the

tide will turn soon.

Nanne

=====

" Let's go get drunk on light again---it has the power to console. " --

Seurat

[Guest guest]

--- Jane Meyerding wrote:

> wrote:

> >Just found this one:

> >

> ><http://www.fathermag.com/news/rape/spokane.shtml>

> > From the " Daily Olympian " Sunday, June 29, 1997 -

> Section C page 3

> >

> >The first woman in Spokane County to be convicted

> of raping a man could

> >face up to 30 years in prison. A seven-woman;

> five-man Superior Court jury

> >on Friday found Theresa S. guilty of first-degree

> rape and second degree

> >assault. Theresa S., 36, was accused of torturing

> the 42 year old man at

> >her east Spokane apartment from September to

> January. The victim was

> >punched, chained, burned, raped, and threatened

> with a knife. He finally

> >escaped and called police on January 17.

>

> The only woman I ever met who was convicted of rape

> was

> put in prison for " statuatory rape. " She had sex

> with a

> minor. That's probably the most common scenario for

> women charged with rape (as opposed to the violence

> described in the newspaper account above).

>

> Jane

>

---------And still, when it gets down to it, a woman

can't really technically rape a man with her sex

organs the way a man can rape a woman with his. Aside

from the statuatory rape you mention above.

Nanne

=====

" Let's go get drunk on light again---it has the power to console. " --

Seurat

[Guest guest]

wrote:

>Just found this one:

>

><http://www.fathermag.com/news/rape/spokane.shtml>

> From the " Daily Olympian " Sunday, June 29, 1997 - Section C page 3

>

>The first woman in Spokane County to be convicted of raping a man could

>face up to 30 years in prison. A seven-woman; five-man Superior Court jury

>on Friday found Theresa S. guilty of first-degree rape and second degree

>assault. Theresa S., 36, was accused of torturing the 42 year old man at

>her east Spokane apartment from September to January. The victim was

>punched, chained, burned, raped, and threatened with a knife. He finally

>escaped and called police on January 17.

The only woman I ever met who was convicted of rape was

put in prison for " statuatory rape. " She had sex with a

minor. That's probably the most common scenario for

women charged with rape (as opposed to the violence

described in the newspaper account above).

Jane

[Guest guest]

> As far as I am conserned, rape is never a woman's fault

Unless of course she's the rapist.

--

" I can tell when my lover has been around the cat too long when she

begins scratching me behind the ears. " -Gail Sausser

[Guest guest]

> He wasn't looking at the camera, but

> instead kept his eyes to his left side,

> a dead giveaway.

That does make me nervous -- today I was in a Meeting From Hell with

various people (hopefully I will not have to see them again for a long

time), and my eyes were very fixed and to the left, not because I was

hiding something though. And I'm sure for other reasons during the

meeting that they thought poorly of me, not sure if for that one.

--

" A computer mouse isn't. " -Your Cat's Guide to Your Computer

[Guest guest]

Nanne wrote:

>Whichever way it goes, Kobe will never be

>cheating on his wife again, I bet.

Gee, let's hope so. And if he does cheat again, she should kick his ass to the

curb. Hell, she should've this time- instead of taking shit and pretending it

was nothing. That woman is so beautiful- what's wrong with him?

When a spouse/ significant other cheats, its obvious they could care less about

the other spouse. Also, a promiscuous lover could bring home all sorts of

diseases, even AIDS.

Jeanette

[Guest guest]

Nanne wrote:

>---------And still, when it gets down to it, a woman

>can't really technically rape a man with her sex

>organs the way a man can rape a woman with his. Aside

>from the statuatory rape you mention above.

Absolutely. Cases of a man being raped by a woman are so rare. I wish I had

statistics to compare. I know at least 25% of all women are raped in thier

lifetime.

You definately can't say that about men being raped by women.

Jeanette

[Guest guest]

>Nanne wrote:

>>---------And still, when it gets down to it, a woman

>>can't really technically rape a man with her sex

>>organs the way a man can rape a woman with his. Aside

>>from the statuatory rape you mention above.

>

I find this attitude very insulting. Many Women get away with raping

children and they may not have the sex organs but what is left out

that they can certainly use their fingers and or smother their face,

which is what happened to me. I think you need to go to the

dictionary and look up the definition of rape.

As for a Man always being up for it, well that is crap. Men will

naturally have a physical reaction. When I was abused I hated it,

but I naturally had the reaction cause stimulation creates that. It

doesn't mean that a Woman is not raping the Man or boy.

Rape cases are not known of Men getting raped by women, because Men

would not come forward and say so. Men would feel they would be

laughed at and probably they are right. Also if the woman felt

threatened they could easily turn the tables and tell the Police that

the Man raped them. It does go on mainly with Teens and old Women or

even Pre Teens. But Society is still not ready to admit this.

When I was 8 years old I was minding my own business on the swings

when 3 15 year old girls asked me what I was doing. I told them the

obvious then one of them held my hands behind my back whilst the

other commited and indecent act on me. The last one kept watch. IT

was a public park and yet people didn't really care or they couldn't

see. Anyway after 10 mins I cried and struggled then they ran off.

Did I tell my Parents??? Did I tell anyone??? No I did not. For

years I felt it was my fault. Many Men would say I was lucky but at

8 I was hardly that. I was just minding my own business on the

swings.

In the UK a few women have been arrestd but released. One was Tina

Persa who was a Nursery Nurse and had 3 kids of her own. She seduced

a 10 year old boy, but the papers reported it as an afair. If though

the family hired a private detective she got off with bail and also

the Judge said that she would not be a danger to any other children.

That was despite performing an Indecent act and finally intercourse

with the boy for 2 years. Had this of been a Man things would of

been very different and he would probably be in jail now.

There was also a case of a couple that made comercial tapes of their

kids being beaten and tourtured and the woman was the prime abuser

who even read from scripts. Finally there was a Nursery Teacher who

raped a child with a knife up his rectum cause he did not want to eat

what was given him.

Than I have with my own two eyes seen achild abused at the so called

Help Clinic I went to when I was 6. They also practiced pin down.

Do you want me to go on????? These were all WOmen entrusted with

our care.

As for none penitration there have been cases of Women using Fingers,

Bottles and other objects on Children. So don't give me that. Rape

is Rape and Abuse is Abuse. It doesn't matter on the Gender or if

the person is human or even an animal. It goes on and its sick

either way.

Many Men who rape Women were abused as Children by a Woman. They did

a survey of Prisons and they found 80% of rapists were abused by

females either Sexually or Physically as children.

There is no doubt that the main abusers are Men. But at least 25% of

cases are when a female is involved either on her own or with a

partner.

Anyway just pointing out a few facts. It can be as traumatic to be

abused by a Woman as a Woman would feel to be abused by a Man.

Steve

[Guest guest]

>

>--- Jane Meyerding wrote:

>> wrote:

>>>Just found this one:

>>>

>>><http://www.fathermag.com/news/rape/spokane.shtml>

>>>From the " Daily Olympian " Sunday, June 29, 1997 -

>>Section C page 3

>>>

I used to go by Fathermag but most of what they say seems to be blown

out of proportion and it also seems to be against Women. So to do

this they print story upon story of Women doing things to kids. If

you look under the headings you will see all kinds of stories, but

there doesn't seem to be anything to back it up. As a Child that was

abused by WOmen. I can tell you this much this only serves to make

people think its a fantasy and not reality that Women do this.

Steve

My Aspergers Groups

http://www.geocities.com/chemerelite

http://clix.to/chemer

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 8/13/2003 3:02:25 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

chemer@... writes:

> When I was 8 years old I was minding my own business on the swings

> when 3 15 year old girls asked me what I was doing. I told them the

> obvious then one of them held my hands behind my back whilst the

> other commited and indecent act on me. The last one kept watch. IT

> was a public park and yet people didn't really care or they couldn't

> see. Anyway after 10 mins I cried and struggled then they ran off.

> Did I tell my Parents??? Did I tell anyone??? No I did not. For

> years I felt it was my fault. Many Men would say I was lucky but at

> 8 I was hardly that. I was just minding my own business on the

> swings.

>

This is terrible, yes. Frightened so much you must have been. I am sad you

had to go through this, yes.

Juli ASD mother to Nicollette Rett Syndrome w/autism

[Guest guest]

I think that NBA Guy was set up for $$$$$$$$$$ As you said the

motive was there and really she was not going up to his for coffee.

Steve

[Guest guest]

Chemer danced around singing:

>Women have a big support network and Empowerment

>Network. Men do not have this at all.

Not *all* women; you might say " NT women " , or " Extroverted Women " , but not

just " women " as there are ones like me out there that have no such

thing. The closest I have to a " support network " is a best friend that I

IM with on nights/days he's not busy, a few people that comment in my

blog/journal, and these autism groups. That's more than I had the first

nineteen years of my life, and it's just as much as any male might

have. So to say " women " have a support network, suggesting that it's some

magical gender trait, is inaccurate.

Meanwhile, my best friend, boyfriend, and brother all have extensive

support/ " empowerment " networks with people of both genders. That includes

friends that have no problem with them admitting they are happy, sad,

scared, or whatever they happen to be feeling, so evidently males can have

whatever support they need as well.

[Guest guest]

Steve Wrote:

>Women have a big

>support network and Empowerment Network. Men do not have this at

>all.

Really? I'd like to know where this group of supporting women is, because I've

never found it. I can't even find a feminist group anywhere that I can go to and

meet.

Men DO have a vast network of support. It's called the patriarch, good ol' boys

club, etc. Their bonds are stronger than anything, as long as a guy meets their

criteria.

The support they offer, however, would not be useful or helpful to male victims

of abuse. In fact, it would probably hurt you even more, because guys generally

don't want to acknowledge they can be hurt because it's a sign of weakness.

That is unacceptable in the club.

The sort of issues you bring up, about men being abused, opening up, etc. is

part of the men's movement. Here in California there are a lot of men talking

about how they were abused by catholic priests. They have a whole support

network. And it's working. The priests are being arrested in spite of the fact

that the church wants to cover it up and HAS covered it up and allowed these

guys to contiune being priests and molesting boys for decades.

I hope you can find support- and someone who has had similar experiences you can

talk with.

Jeanette

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 8/13/2003 9:22:49 AM Eastern Daylight Time, :

> >Sorry if I caused any distress here I just had flash

> >backs and

> >pressed the send button. But it needed to be said.

> >However I do not

> >think I should of been so graphical but I can still

> >taste and feel

> >it. I hate it and its a wonder I have a

> >relationship today

> >

> >Steve

> >

It is much terrible that this happened to you, yes. And it did needed to be

said to make us aware of what is happening.

I know this may be too difficult. Myself I not like to talk about mine

experiences but somewhat a relief when I've gotten out of mine system, yes.

Have you thought of perhaps making a list or group so that men can talk about

what happened to themselves? It may be too difficult for you, yes, but it may

help other men who are suffered in their silence to talk about what they may

be afraid to talk about, yes. and give another man some validity of what he

may be feeling.

i would try to do so if i were a man, but as a woman it may be too difficult

for a man to relate to me as there are different issues and feelings at stake

that i may not know of, being a woman. i know it may be difficult but you

would be perfect to help other men in same situations as these, if you are able

to

do so that is. it would help increase awareness and support for those who

have suffered as you have suffered.

Good luck to you and I am pleased you are in a loving environment now.

Juli ASD mother to Nicollette Rett Syndrome w/autism

[Guest guest]

--- Chemer wrote:

> >Nanne wrote:

> >>---------And still, when it gets down to it, a

> woman

> >>can't really technically rape a man with her sex

> >>organs the way a man can rape a woman with his.

> Aside

> >>from the statuatory rape you mention above.

> >

>

> I find this attitude very insulting. Many Women get

> away with raping

> children and they may not have the sex organs but

> what is left out

> that they can certainly use their fingers and or

> smother their face,

> which is what happened to me. I think you need to

> go to the

> dictionary and look up the definition of rape.

--------I said ASIDE from the statuatory rape she

mentioned, if you'd bothered to have read the whole

paragraph there. What I said isn't an " attitude " ,

just a comment about adult sex orgrans there.

>

> As for a Man always being up for it, well that is

> crap.

--------Where did I say that???

Men will

> naturally have a physical reaction. When I was

> abused I hated it,

> but I naturally had the reaction cause stimulation

> creates that. It

> doesn't mean that a Woman is not raping the Man or

> boy.

---------Women who sexually abuse young boys and

children are just as bad as rapists, imo.

>

> Rape cases are not known of Men getting raped by

> women, because Men

> would not come forward and say so. Men would feel

> they would be

> laughed at and probably they are right. Also if the

> woman felt

> threatened they could easily turn the tables and

> tell the Police that

> the Man raped them. It does go on mainly with Teens

> and old Women or

> even Pre Teens. But Society is still not ready to

> admit this.

>

> When I was 8 years old I was minding my own business

> on the swings

> when 3 15 year old girls asked me what I was doing.

> I told them the

> obvious then one of them held my hands behind my

> back whilst the

> other commited and indecent act on me. The last one

> kept watch. IT

> was a public park and yet people didn't really care

> or they couldn't

> see. Anyway after 10 mins I cried and struggled then

> they ran off.

> Did I tell my Parents??? Did I tell anyone??? No I

> did not. For

> years I felt it was my fault. Many Men would say I

> was lucky but at

> 8 I was hardly that. I was just minding my own

> business on the

> swings.

--------This is horrible and am sorry that happened to

you.

>

> In the UK a few women have been arrestd but

> released. One was Tina

> Persa who was a Nursery Nurse and had 3 kids of her

> own. She seduced

> a 10 year old boy, but the papers reported it as an

> afair. If though

> the family hired a private detective she got off

> with bail and also

> the Judge said that she would not be a danger to any

> other children.

> That was despite performing an Indecent act and

> finally intercourse

> with the boy for 2 years. Had this of been a Man

> things would of

> been very different and he would probably be in jail

> now.

>

> There was also a case of a couple that made

> comercial tapes of their

> kids being beaten and tourtured and the woman was

> the prime abuser

> who even read from scripts. Finally there was a

> Nursery Teacher who

> raped a child with a knife up his rectum cause he

> did not want to eat

> what was given him.

>

> Than I have with my own two eyes seen achild abused

> at the so called

> Help Clinic I went to when I was 6. They also

> practiced pin down.

> Do you want me to go on????? These were all WOmen

> entrusted with

> our care.

---------I read of instances of women abusing children

also, and would never claim that women are immune or

never guilty of such things.

>

> As for none penitration there have been cases of

> Women using Fingers,

> Bottles and other objects on Children. So don't

> give me that. Rape

> is Rape and Abuse is Abuse. It doesn't matter on

> the Gender or if

> the person is human or even an animal. It goes on

> and its sick

> either way.

>

> Many Men who rape Women were abused as Children by a

> Woman. They did

> a survey of Prisons and they found 80% of rapists

> were abused by

> females either Sexually or Physically as children.

>

> There is no doubt that the main abusers are Men.

> But at least 25% of

> cases are when a female is involved either on her

> own or with a

> partner.

>

> Anyway just pointing out a few facts. It can be as

> traumatic to be

> abused by a Woman as a Woman would feel to be abused

> by a Man.

>

--------It's frightening to consider the cycle of

sexual abuse, the increase in rates of it and the

likelihood that many who were grow up to abuse

children themselves (not all, but a lot) if their

abuse was not dealt with. There's nothing I disagree

with you there at all.

Nanne

=====

" Let's go get drunk on light again---it has the power to console. " --

Seurat

[Guest guest]

--- Chemer wrote:

> >---------The only problem with this, is that I

> >seriously doubt that a vagina could bruise, rip or

> >tear a penis in that kind of situation, whereas a

> >penis can definitely bruise, rip, and tear the

> inside

> >of a vagina.

> >

> >Nanne

> >

>

> Nanne I really do not think you get it. Its a

> violation and its not

> just the physical scars but the mental scars and

> stigma afterwards.

> As for Vagina well they sometimes stick objects in

> the boys Anus. I

> hope I do not have to spell out what can occur. But

> peeing and even

> other toilet games can happen. Its too sick to

> think that Women are

> capable of this, but I have seen it. We shall leave

> it at that.

-------I understand all that, Steve, and the original

comment I made was in relation to sexual rape from

female to male, not in terms of children or other

abuse, etc. And yes I agree it's a shame that abuse

from woman to man is not taken seriously, and should

change. There is no superiority when it it comes to

one sex or the other....both are equally capable of

being rotten.

Nanne

=====

" Let's go get drunk on light again---it has the power to console. " --

Seurat

[Guest guest]

--- Chemer wrote:

> I think that NBA Guy was set up for $$$$$$$$$$ As

> you said the

> motive was there and really she was not going up to

> his for coffee.

>

> Steve

-------There's also the racial angle....Mom and Dad

horrified to find out baby girl did it with a Black

Guy, preserve her 'honor' and hollar 'rape'... it was

a small lilly-white town, right?

Nanne

=====

" Let's go get drunk on light again---it has the power to console. " --

Seurat

[Guest guest]

Sorry if I caused any distress here I just had flash backs and

pressed the send button. But it needed to be said. However I do not

think I should of been so graphical but I can still taste and feel

it. I hate it and its a wonder I have a relationship today

Steve

[Guest guest]

--- No distress caused here, Steve....sorry it had

an effect on you, and what you wrote needs to be

pointed out also, and indeed isn't spoken of

enough.... another 'taboo' that needs to be broken.

Hope your relationship is a good and healing one,

and eventually in time the pain from the past is

healed.

take care,

Nanne

--- Chemer wrote:

> Sorry if I caused any distress here I just had flash

> backs and

> pressed the send button. But it needed to be said.

> However I do not

> think I should of been so graphical but I can still

> taste and feel

> it. I hate it and its a wonder I have a

> relationship today

>

> Steve

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

When men are sufficiently frightened, they get an erection (thus,

boys in high school having a problem when they are called on to

answer a question). A male friend of my Dads was tied up and

beaten and raped and he filed charges against the woman. So it

does happen. It’s probably not that common and probably not

reported the majority of the time.

Louis

From: Jeanette

wrote:

>What if the woman is the rapist? Is it still not her fault?

Obviously, if a woman is a rapist, then her " fault " is being a

rapist or child molester. But how can a woman rape a man? I

guess she could if she sodomized him with an istrument. But you

can't get certain items to stand up, if you know what I mean and

have a woman rape a man that way. SEDUCE, yes. And if she has

bad intentions, like using him- that is wrong.